The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired. [read entire article]

[Dis]

It's fucking annoying that so many people are being punished for not wasting a vaccine that the world fucking needs at least a very high majority to take and take quickly to stop a deadly virus. Even more so when he is being punished for giving it to the "wrong" people when we've seen actual stories of hospitals giving it to staff who have worked at home all year and aren't facing patients every day while claiming they're giving it to healthcare workers who are high priority and leaving actual patient facing staff without. Not to mention all the rich people trying to buy their way to a vaccine and I doubt they've not been able to get one even if we've been told they haven't. Once again it's only when the normal non mega rich or connected people get something that the rich aren't entitled to first we have issues.

 

[Cheesebu]

He should be punished for the precedent that this creates, or people all over will open vials for a single shot and then use the remainder for family members. If it was deemed to be in good conscience, firing is unnecessary.

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Should they have turned away that last eligible patient of the day to avoid opening a vial?

 

[Deleted member 19844]

A similar thing happened in Italy. They had some vaccines open and nobody on the list was available. As a result the doctors called family members. They found out because some kids made instagram stories about it.

This is illegal. And it should be, because it sets a dangerous precedent. This would lead to abuse and preferable treatment to family members of doctors and potentially bribery. Also consider these people will need a second shot, so they would take away an extra dose that is available later on from people who actually need it more.

It feels counterintuitive, but I understand the need for very strict rules.

The guy that made the remark about the too many Indian names on the list, should obviously be fired right away. No place for racists.

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It's not illegal. And while there is definitely a need for rules and accountability, there is also a need for a thinking human being to look at the situation and NOT fire the doctor. I'm sure you would not have fired the doctor in this situation.

 

[Redcrayon]

He should be punished for the precedent that this creates, or people all over will open vials for a single shot and then use the remainder for family members. If it was deemed to be in good conscience, firing is unnecessary.

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This is ridiculous. What precedent?
A) He didn't open it.
B) Doctors worldwide have already been administering leftover vaccine doses to the vulnerable, at short notice, for months.

Administration of every single shot is logged, to flag up where second doses are necessary, to stop duplication of first doses, and so that they are reviewed. If we've reached a point where medics, after volunteering to do long, punishing shifts in the freezing cold, having been on the frontline all along, now all need to be suspected of being selfish thieves first and foremost, I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to do it at all. Let alone a doctor dashing around in the dark and cold on 29 December, fighting the clock to try and find anyone on the vulnerable list that he could give a vaccine to after a bloody public health official signed off on it.

 

[Dr. Mario]

This is ridiculous. What precedent?
A) He didn't open it.
B) Doctors worldwide have already been administering leftover vaccine doses to the vulnerable, at short notice, for months.

Administration of every single shot is logged, to flag up where second doses are necessary, to stop duplication of first doses, and so that they are reviewed. If we've reached a point where medics, after volunteering to do long, punishing shifts in the freezing cold, having been on the frontline all along, now all need to be suspected of being selfish thieves first and foremost, I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to do it at all. Let alone a doctor dashing around in the dark and cold on 29 December, fighting the clock to try and find anyone on the vulnerable list that he could give a vaccine to after a bloody public health official signed off on it.

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Regulations are very important when it comes to healthcare, doctors know this. Vaccines routinely get thrown away for this, people are not eligible for trials even though it would help them, sick people end up in a control group. None of this is right for the individual, but it's right for society. Again, in this case, I think a minor disciplinary reprimand or a fine would have been enough. And I'm super against the American practice of putting mug shots online for something like this.

 

[Nasym]

Isnt the problem here that alot of doses seems to go to waste? If i buy some beer and throw a party i dont begin inviting people after it has started, i tell them in advance. Shouldnt a vaccination of all the people on earth be somewhat systematic?

poster above knows whats up

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Regulations are very important when it comes to healthcare, doctors know this. Vaccines routinely get thrown away for this, people are not eligible for trials even though it would help them, sick people end up in a control group. None of this is right for the individual, but it's right for society. Again, in this case, I think a minor disciplinary reprimand or a fine would have been enough. And I'm super against the American practice of putting mug shots online for something like this.

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As the article states, the Doctor was following regulations!

 

[DeathyBoy]

As the article states, the Doctor was following regulations!

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Not his hospitals, clearly. He used common sense, but common sense goes against healthcare bureaucracy.

 

[Typhoon20]

He should definately sue them. I don't see how he doesn't win this. The racism part really really infuriates me. It's so fckn ingrained everywhere. I hope the people who fired him get punished.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

these ghouls in the government/healthcare bureaucracy would have preferred he throw the medicine away, which goes to show how much actual brainrot goes on in this country.

 

[metalslimer]

So many damn people in this thread not reading the article. The vaccine rollout instructions have been God awful. I'm not going to fault someone for trying to follow the commands he was given to not let anything go to waste in the middle of a fucking pandemic. In the end, he fuckijg reported everyone he gave the vaccine to. Do people really think if this was some nefarious plot that he would have told anyone?

If the health system wanted him to throw the doses away there better be written guidelines that he should throw away any extra doses.

 

[Redcrayon]

Regulations are very important when it comes to healthcare, doctors know this. Vaccines routinely get thrown away for this, people are not eligible for trials even though it would help them, sick people end up in a control group. None of this is right for the individual, but it's right for society. Again, in this case, I think a minor disciplinary reprimand or a fine would have been enough. And I'm super against the American practice of putting mug shots online for something like this.

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Here were his instructions:

On Dec. 22, Dr. Gokal joined a conference call in which state health officials explained the protocols for administering the recently approved Moderna vaccine. The 10 or 11 doses in a vial are viable for six hours after the seal is punctured.

Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category (health care workers and residents in long-term-care facilities), then those under the 1(b) category (people over 65 or with a health condition that increases risk of severe Covid-related illness).

After that, he said, the message was: "Just put it in people's arms. We don't want any doses to go to waste. Period."

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With doses left over, he then:

Dr. Gokal said he called a Harris County public health official in charge of operations to report his plans to find 10 people to receive the remaining doses. He said he was told, simply: OK.

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so what regulation was broken here, given it was December 29 and there were no other protocols:

But Dr. Gokal said that no one from the district attorney's office had ever contacted him to hear his version of events. And when his lawyer requested copies of the written protocols and waiting list referred to in the complaint, a prosecutor told him by email that there were no written protocols from late December; nor had a written wait list yet been found.

Harris County had received the vaccine faster than anticipated, the email said, and public health officials "immediately jumped from testing to vaccinating."

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I'm struggling to see, given that information, the lack of protocols, his instructions, his seeking permissiom to go ahead, what exactly you find worth reprimanding or fining here.

 

[Viriditas]

He also said that one of the officials startled him by questioning the lack of "equity" among those he had vaccinated.

"Are you suggesting that there were too many Indian names in that group?" Dr. Gokal said he asked.

Exactly, he said he was told.

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Docs needing to use up an opened vial at the last minute is literally how I got my vaccine.

AFAIK nobody was fucking fired for that decision.

 

[Redcrayon]

Isnt the problem here that alot of doses seems to go to waste? If i buy some beer and throw a party i dont begin inviting people after it has started, i tell them in advance. Shouldnt a vaccination of all the people on earth be somewhat systematic?

poster above knows whats up

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Even for systemic vaccination, which is what the NHS is doing here based on having an existing nationwide health register, people DNA (do not arrive) for medical appointments all the time. Some for legit reasons, some not. It leads to wasted time and resources every single day, not just vaccines.

 

[Dr. Mario]

Do people really think if this was some nefarious plot that he would have told anyone?

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I don't think anyone said this no.

Here were his instructions:

With doses left over, he then:


so what regulation was broken here, given it was December 29 and there were no other protocols:


I'm struggling to see, given that information, the lack of protocols, his instructions, his seeking permissiom to go ahead, what exactly you find worth reprimanding or fining here.

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Ah fair enough, couldn't read the NYT article. If he was told "OK", then it's weird to reprimand him after.

 

[Mars People]

He should sue them for wrongful dismissal.

 

[Spectral Glider]

Jesus Christ....the world's priorities right now should be get everybody vaccinated and don't waste vaccines. And they fire this guy? Lord, these past 5 years or so have me wanting off this rock.

 

[Redcrayon]

Jesus Christ....the world's priorities right now should be get everybody vaccinated and don't waste vaccines. And they fire this guy? Lord, these past 5 years or so have me wanting off this rock.

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"What's the priority of our state vaccine programmes today?"
"Firing the senior medic running one"
"Why?"
"Not wasting vaccines by giving ones that were going to be thrown away to half a dozen severely vulnerable people instead, in line with what we said in the meeting"
"Sure, that makes sense."
/s

 

[Pankratous]

This is even more stupid than fast food workers not being able to take food home instead of it going to waste. Super fucking weird mentality to consider this wrong.

 

[Taffy Lewis]

Regulations are very important when it comes to healthcare, doctors know this. Vaccines routinely get thrown away for this, people are not eligible for trials even though it would help them, sick people end up in a control group.

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One of these three things is not like the others. It's better to administer the vaccine than to throw it away, throwing vaccines away is worse for the individuals and worse for society.

 

[Candescence]

As the article clearly states, he performed his due diligence, asked colleagues, nurses and security if they wanted to be vaccindated, and then per the advice of health officials who explicitly stated that vaccine dose wastage should be avoided as much as possible no matter who the doses go to, he used them on various vulnerable people he could best contact within the time period, before he was eventually forced to vaccinate his wife or waste the last dose. He documented all of this and even got approval from a public health official to do this. And yet his boss had the gall to fire him anyway and then the state charges him with theft because he didn't give the doses to the "right people", even though a list of the "right people" didn't even exist at the time, there wasn't a waiting line. No wonder the judge threw out the charge.

This is a result of 1) blatant racism and 2) Trump's spectacularly incompetent handling of the vaccine rollout. The fact that this dedicated doctor got fired is infuriating, but the fact that the county's district attorney decided to charge with theft makes me fucking livid.

 

[Captain_Vyse]

This is so stupid. He wasn't stealing doses. The doses would have been in the trash if he didn't do this. He should be commended.

 

[darkhunger]

One of these three things is not like the others. It's better to administer the vaccine than to throw it away, throwing vaccines away is worse for the individuals and worse for society.

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This is even more stupid than fast food workers not being able to take food home instead of it going to waste. Super fucking weird mentality to consider this wrong.

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Its typical bureaucratic cover-your-ass mentality. Instead of doing the right thing, people prefer to do the easy thing to avoid problems down the line, and when other people choose to do the right thing they choose to ostracize because to them, these people are "stirring up trouble".

 

[Taco_Human]

He doesn't deserve punishment, the fuck

 

[Wallace Wells]

Can't believe there's people on here screaming that this is illegal.

The doctor did the right thing and that's another 9 people protected against Covid instead of 9 doses being wasted.

 

[III-V]

This is interesting for me, because we know a person who is doing something similar locally. They told us that they are having to waste many vaccines some days, and if we put our names on a list, with our info filled out and ready to go at the drop of a hat, then we could likely get vaccinated early. They said early on, they would go door to door around the vicinity to see if people wanted to be vaccinated. Now they are trying to search more broadly. Fundamentally, it is a failure in the distribution system. My name is on the list.

 

[BitsandBytes]

This is quite the contrast to the Oregon snowstorm story a while back.....

Criminal that this doctor got the sack.

 

[platocplx]

It makes no sense that they don't just allow people to be put on waiting lists and when they are close to expiration get people vaccinated.

 

[Valiant]

Regulations are very important when it comes to healthcare, doctors know this. Vaccines routinely get thrown away for this, people are not eligible for trials even though it would help them, sick people end up in a control group. None of this is right for the individual, but it's right for society. Again, in this case, I think a minor disciplinary reprimand or a fine would have been enough. And I'm super against the American practice of putting mug shots online for something like this.

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You haven't even read the article. I know it's New York Times and has a paywall but thats what incognito is for.

He didn't open it.

It wasn't just family it was distance acquaintances and people he didn't know.

He tried contacting people at the site if they needed it and people near his office. Most did not.

 

[Josh378]

This guy got an easy open and close case lawsuit. I have a feeling the hospital's going to pay him on the table to stop the lawsuit and he'll find a job elsewhere. Hospital does not want any more bad publicity than what they have right now.

 

[LProtagonist]

So he took the time to find eligible people rather than just give it out to anyone he knew. He then vaccinated his wife, who is at risk, at the very last minute after not being able to find anyone else? Dude went above and beyond.

 

[UltimateHigh]

the amount of wasted resources in this country, be it food, money, medical supplies, vaccines, etc... is unbelievable.

we often throw things away instead of giving them to people who could use them.

 

[Dr. Mario]

You haven't even read the article. I know it's New York Times and has a paywall but thats what incognito is for.

He didn't open it.

It wasn't just family it was distance acquaintances and people he didn't know.

He tried contacting people at the site if they needed it and people near his office. Most did not.

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Yes I should have used incognito mode. OP should also have put that crucial bit in that he was following procedures. Really changes the gist of the discussion.

 

[Pluto]

Should they have turned away that last eligible patient of the day to avoid opening a vial?

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Yes, a vial that contains 10 doses shouldn't be opened for one patient, that's common sense. The patient can bet their shot the next day, that's better than potentially wasting 9 doses.

 

[onadesertedisland]

At this point when we're racing against a mutating strain I think we need to not be so picky about the rollout. Get the vax into people. There's too many in 1a and 1b that are refusing it. Time is not waiting.

 

[WhySoDevious]

Don't forget this part.

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Human resources continue to be shit.

 

[Taffy Lewis]

This is interesting for me, because we know a person who is doing something similar locally. They told us that they are having to waste many vaccines some days, and if we put our names on a list, with our info filled out and ready to go at the drop of a hat, then we could likely get vaccinated early. They said early on, they would go door to door around the vicinity to see if people wanted to be vaccinated. Now they are trying to search more broadly. Fundamentally, it is a failure in the distribution system. My name is on the list.

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The city I live in has a city-wide list like that, as long as you're able to appear within city limits on short notice (up to two hours), you can register yourself and potentially receive leftover vaccines.

 

[Taffy Lewis]

Yes, a vial that contains 10 doses shouldn't be opened for one patient, that's common sense. The patient can bet their shot the next day, that's better than potentially wasting 9 doses.

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10 more people were vaccinated in the end, though. And rescheduling people means they're less likely to get vaccinated at all.

 

[onadesertedisland]

the amount of wasted resources in this country, be it food, money, medical supplies, vaccines, etc... is unbelievable.

we often throw things away instead of giving them to people who could use them.

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But capitalism cries when profits go unmade.

 

[CelestialAtom]

the amount of wasted resources in this country, be it food, money, medical supplies, vaccines, etc... is unbelievable.

we often throw things away instead of giving them to people who could use them.

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All of this. Some of my friends just up and throw shit away, and I always tell them to donate it to places that could use it. My Fiancee' & I donated my previous bed to a women's shelter and then we donated a ton of linen there, too. There are so many organizations that will take donations that go towards helping others, and it boggles my mind as to why so many people needlessly throw away perfectly good stuff.

 

[ParanormalFupa]

I have to imagine this exact scenario was discussed with him beforehand. There could be a totally reasonable explanation.

Idk why he went driving around a neighboring county instead of using the 6 hours to coordinate with his hospital to line up extra patients at the event, which I'm sure ANY hospital could have done. 6 hours is a lot of time, it's almost an entire work day for 10 people. To assume it would be wasted from 6:45pm to like midnight is a stretch. Also kinda weird that you would until the last minute to save a potentially unstable dose for your wife.

 

[Azerth]

Sounds like he took the doses to his house so he did tech steal them. That said the other part seema like hospital was jist mad he gave indians the shot so im glad he did what did

 

[AlexFlame116]

Its baffling to me that some people are trying to shift the blame on him or justify his firing.

 

[onadesertedisland]

A judge dropped the charges and the da office is going to try to get a grand jury.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Giving the shot to his wife is probably what got him fired. My wife would probably get fired as well if she took a partial vial home to vaccinate me.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

He didn't open the vial, it was opened by a nurse, legitimately, as a valid patient turned up to the end of a public event. He was then following instructions given beforehand, and then signed off by a public health official afterwards after he said what his plan was for the remaining doses.

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Hopefully there are records of this and he's got enough grounds for litigation against them. The whole thing seems like absolute horseshit.

 

[Jombie]

I hate this cynical red tape bullshit. It's all about self-advancement and the need to throw weight around. This should be a non issue - the guy probably saved lives.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

At this point when we're racing against a mutating strain I think we need to not be so picky about the rollout. Get the vax into people. There's too many in 1a and 1b that are refusing it. Time is not waiting.

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this is basically what my company did. So many nurses were refusing it that they just said fuck it and started offering to the WFH people.

People were pissed that WFH employees were getting it before non-affiliated front line and vulnerable, but with the logistics for scheduling the general public non-existent they took the approach better someone than no one

 

[Rental]

In dc they are told/ordered to give expiring vials to anyone in the area that wants it. This should be across the board in every city or state but must not be as it seems some areas have no clue on how to handle expiring vials.

Yes it has created a scenario where people hang out at pharmacies or grocery stores hoping to get one offered but at least vaccines are not getting tossed. They have messaged people to not hang around these areas as you are more likely increasing your chance of covid than an actual vaccine.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Some of y'all aren't even pretending to have read the article with the questions you're asking that were explicitly answered in it