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GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
merit gets you the cup and medals.
And that's weird because in every other setting many argue that it is merit alone that should determine access and pay for example. Usually when they're trying to restrict minority employment opportunities.

But here the same type of people that crow about merit suddenly think that's not enough when it comes to pay.

🤔
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,142
Trump congratulated them on Twitter.

Edit
: mega late lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
User Banned (A Week): Derailing and inappropriate comment. Previously banned for derailment, and inappropriate commentary.
It was the world cup, and it's done?

I literally never heard a thing about it this year.

Congrats though!

And yeah, our women are relatively (to the competition) better, but I dont think our women's team would beat the guys team. I dont think any individual woman would make the male team on merit. *shrug*
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
for a reason. US Soccer still makes more money from the men's side of the game. And yes, I am aware of the WSJ article talking about gate revenue from the past 3 years. Even with the men missing the world cup the difference was still like a million dollars. And the women play way more friendlies than the men which also accounts for that. One of the major reasons for US Soccer's surplus was a men's tournament.

The women do sell more tickets, get higher ratings, and sell more jerseys. Where are you getting this statistic that the men bring in more money? How would that even be possible and how bad are US Soccer at their jobs if they can't profit off the momentum that follows their women's side every four years?

Obviously there are more frequent important large tournaments that the men participate in, but the fact that US Soccer doesn't seem to know how to convert the enthusiasm for the actual winners into higher profit is insane.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,073
They should get paid way more than the men's team. Tired of the argument that there isn't as much revenue generated by the women. They're fucking winners and should be acknowledged as such. The men's team is a disgrace and I don't even give a shit about soccer.


then you probably shouldn't opine about the state of the men's team. Because it is apparent that you are clueless.
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,081
Do women soccer players get paid to do the sport as their actual job or do they still need to side hustle? Still remember a documentary where they showed how , I think it was Germany, won some title but the woman actually had to have jobs beside training.

Paid poorly in general, , but I can see it rapidly changing, especially in Europe.

The US domestic league is really poor.

The NWSL will also increase its salary cap to $421,500 for the upcoming season. The minimum player salary will rise to $16,538, while the maximum salary will rise to $46,200.


However, Lyon is the opposite

.
Crucially, they pay well, too. When L'Équipe published the salaries of the top French players at the World Cup they were led by Lyon's Wendie Renard and Amandine Henry on €29,000 (£26,000) a month, with several other Lyon players on between €10,000-€18,000. Meanwhile Hegerberg is reportedly on somewhere around €34,000 a month. True, Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo will earn about 70 times that much.


With how big of a smash hit this world cup was in Europe this year, I can see traditional powers (You know them better then I do) emulate Lyon.
 
Last edited:

Tapiozona

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,253
Why though? The men's team gets so much hype. I don't hate them at all; it's just that they are a huge disappointment. Why should resources continue to go to them over the women? The women are proven. Give them the money. Plus the men make way more professionally so arguably the women are in more need of it. Pay the Champs not the chumps.
It may be the right thing to do but the only reason any athletes are paid is because they make revenue through advertising via viewership. More eyes = more money. People just don't watch women's soccer. When was the last women soccer match you watched outside of the world cup? Unfortunately it's the same for most sports outside of a few exceptions (tennis and somewhat golf). There's lots of amazing champions in lots of sports the have athletes deserving of lots of money. Women's soccer isn't some sort of anomoly, it's the norm.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,073
The women do sell more tickets, get higher ratings, and sell more jerseys. Where are you getting this statistic that the men bring in more money? How would that even be possible and how bad are US Soccer at their jobs if they can't profit of the momentum that follows their women's side every four years?

Obviously there are more important large tournaments that the men participate in, but the fact that US Soccer doesn't seem to know how to convert the enthusiasm for the actual winners into higher profit is insane.

Sell more tickets - debateable. The US women play way more friendlies with ticket prices, if I am not wrong, being way cheaper than Men's friendlies. The men also play a lot of their friendlies abroad for obvious reasons.

Higher ratings - again the women don't get consistently higher ratings. The highest rated game is on the women's side because it was a final.

You cannot discount the money brought in from international tournaments. The centennial copa america is responsible in a huge way for US soccer's surplus. It's not the She Believes cup which brings money and eyeballs.

I think US Soccer should just setup accounting differently for both men's and women's side. That means not bundle their rights and sponsorship together. With transparent and separate accounting, it would be easier to keep track of who brings in more and pass it on accordingly.

What gets lost in this whole "equal pay" thing is that the women would never agree to a "pay-for-play" setup like the men.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,678
And that's weird because in every other setting many argue that it is merit alone that should determine access and pay for example. Usually when they're trying to restrict minority employment opportunities.

But here the same type of people that crow about merit suddenly think that's not enough when it comes to pay.

🤔
apparently the us women generate more money than the mens(USMNT) so why shouldn't they ask for more?, equal doesn't seem fair.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
You can tell women football still has a long way to go when the USA of all countries are four time champions.
 

boxter432

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
9,271
It was the world cup, and it's done?

I literally never heard a thing about it this year.

Congrats though!

And yeah, our women are relatively (to the competition) better, but I dont think our women's team would beat the guys team. I dont think any individual woman would make the male team on merit. *shrug*
What the f?
A) it has been all over the news
B) who ever said the WNT could beat the Men's? And who cares?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
What the f?
A) it has been all over the news
B) who ever said the WNT could beat the Men's? And who cares?

A.) For how long was it dominating the news? Been pretty busy the last few days.
B.) The people misrepresenting the "merit" argument, maybe. Maybe relative merit is maybe a better term.

To expand, I think people pay money for professional sports to watch the most skilled and athletic players in the world play. So an open tryout, and the most skilled/athletic players make the team and the most money. Sex and gender irrelevant. That would be a better representation of a 'merit' argument.
 

boxter432

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
9,271
A.) For how long was it dominating the news? Been pretty busy the last few days.
B.) The people misrepresenting the "merit" argument, maybe. Maybe relative merit is maybe a better term.

To expand, I think people pay money for professional sports to watch the most skilled and athletic players in the world play. So an open tryout, and the most skilled/athletic players make the team and the most money. Sex and gender irrelevant. That would be a better representation of a 'merit' argument.
Weeks. National news, Trump tweets, celebration "controversies" and tons of stuff.
 
Jul 18, 2018
5,863
Yea I can see this US team being dominate for another decade until teams catch up from Europe. It's just spread out way too much in terms of talent atm
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
Sell more tickets - debateable. The US women play way more friendlies with ticket prices, if I am not wrong, being way cheaper than Men's friendlies. The men also play a lot of their friendlies abroad for obvious reasons.

Higher ratings - again the women don't get consistently higher ratings. The highest rated game is on the women's side because it was a final.

You cannot discount the money brought in from international tournaments. The centennial copa america is responsible in a huge way for US soccer's surplus. It's not the She Believes cup which brings money and eyeballs.

I think US Soccer should just setup accounting differently for both men's and women's side. That means not bundle their rights and sponsorship together. With transparent and separate accounting, it would be easier to keep track of who brings in more and pass it on accordingly.

What gets lost in this whole "equal pay" thing is that the women would never agree to a "pay-for-play" setup like the men.

But do we think the overall ratings for the women's team don't stay at this level because their frequent friendlies are often against vastly inferior teams that it's not entertaining to watch them play against? Like I acknowledged, the men's team play in many more tournaments with actual value than the women do, but that's a flaw in the overall structure in place for women's soccer as a whole. The whole problem with just chanting "equal pay" is that it simplifies the problem, but that's because a chant has to be quick and catchy. It's not just one thing.

Obviously the reason the women have higher ratings overall is because they actually make it to finals, but that's also why they want more money. Because they made it to the final and won. Back to back. If we're going to use profit as a reason to determine pay then the fact that they make it to the finals -- and thus created higher ratings -- is the central argument for why they deserve more pay. Would they have consistently higher ratings year round if there were more opportunities to showcase their talent? Genuinely impossible to say.

At the end of the day, people aren't expecting the women to immediately get as much as the men, but the fact remains that the two time women's world cup champions get (considerably) less than teams that leave in the first group stage of the men's tournament without a single win. People can talk all they want about the value there, but are we really thinking the ratings for those teams were so through the roof that they turn a higher profit than the US women? Obviously you can't start making arguments based purely on ratings because there are clear population differences, but I think it's fundamental at this point to understand that the pay argument isn't just on behalf of individual players or even a single country, but investment in women's soccer as a whole. If they're going to keep progressing, worldwide, then there has to be investment made to continue to raise the overall standard, which will only increase potential profit.

The ratings are going up in most other countries every tournament, though this obviously somewhat dependent on timezones. England had a roughly 50% viewership for the semi-final against the US. The interest (or potential for it) is there and only growing, but FIFA is reluctant to invest when investment is literally the only way they can continue to drive further profits.

It's not just the US that's the concern, though obviously it's central to the discussion because the pay disparity and outcome comparisons between the men and women is striking. But if you look at the Netherlands only very recently investing in their women's program and seeing such a marked improvement as a result, you have to think that will start to provide a financial benefit in return. Increased interest means increased profit.

Men's soccer isn't innately more interesting, especially not to Americans, but the structures in place to support and present it are vastly superior. It's not just that the men get paid more or frequently have access to better facilities. The entire structure in place benefits them more, yet the women are succeeding despite this. Imagine if they -- and again, this is more of a global they that refers to many women's national teams -- had better resources.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
A.) For how long was it dominating the news? Been pretty busy the last few days.
B.) The people misrepresenting the "merit" argument, maybe. Maybe relative merit is maybe a better term.

To expand, I think people pay money for professional sports to watch the most skilled and athletic players in the world play. So an open tryout, and the most skilled/athletic players make the team and the most money. Sex and gender irrelevant. That would be a better representation of a 'merit' argument.
May I ask where you get your news?

And this men vs. women argument isn't even one being made. That's not how this works
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,156
Yea I can see this US team being dominate for another decade until teams catch up from Europe. It's just spread out way too much in terms of talent atm

Hopefully not. I think one country being very dominant could hurt the growth of the sport. An exciting Field with many potential winners tends to be better to let a sport grow.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
Yea I can see this US team being dominate for another decade until teams catch up from Europe. It's just spread out way too much in terms of talent atm

Did you watch the game? Netherlands are looking pretty good, but I guess that was at least partially because they have a coach who actually uses tactics.

I can't imagine how good the USWNT would be without Jill Ellis weighing them down.
 

Neo0mj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,273
tenor.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
May I ask where you get your news?

And this men vs. women argument isn't even one being made. That's not how this works

Here, and MSNBC once in a while. I dont consume a lot of popular news (more tech oriented, not world news), and very little sports.

And if it's not being made, that's cool. There was one person talking about merit that I saw that I was referring to. But if its ruffling feathers I'll happily drop it.
 
Jul 18, 2018
5,863
Did you watch the game? Netherlands are looking pretty good, but I guess that was at least partially because they have a coach who actually uses tactics.

I can't imagine how good the USWNT would be without Jill Ellis weighing them down.
Yes. There was no threat from Netherlands side besides Sari van Veenendaal who basically did such an amazing job and kept the team from getting shut out even worse. The fwd/mid could not effectively even move up the ball into US side for a threat besides setting up set pieces. The only team that i felt gave US a run for their money was Sweden during the group stages.
 

gdt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,492
A.) For how long was it dominating the news? Been pretty busy the last few days.
B.) The people misrepresenting the "merit" argument, maybe. Maybe relative merit is maybe a better term.

To expand, I think people pay money for professional sports to watch the most skilled and athletic players in the world play. So an open tryout, and the most skilled/athletic players make the team and the most money. Sex and gender irrelevant. That would be a better representation of a 'merit' argument.

What are you talking about
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,254
Here, and MSNBC once in a while. I dont consume a lot of popular news (more tech oriented, not world news), and very little sports.

And if it's not being made, that's cool. There was one person talking about merit that I saw that I was referring to. But if its ruffling feathers I'll happily drop it.

They talked about it on MSNBC even though you didn't even know the event was happening?
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I don't understand why people are saying Trump would be mad. Oh no, the US...won the World Cup? The President of the US will not stand for that!
 

Spinluck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,477
Chicago
The rest of the world has catching up to do..
Just a quick history.
1991 winners (first WC)
1995 3rd
1999 winners
2003 3rd
2007 3rd
2011 2nd
2015 winners
2019 winners
in 8 WCs never finish lowered than 3rd..

The US was investing into women's sports before most counties iirc. Even the Brits were late taking women pro sports seriously and it shows.

With soccer in particular it is seen as a suburban mom sport and seems to be one of the sports along with volleyball that women flock to here.

It's no surprise that our woman kick ass at compared to the rest of the world.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
And that's weird because in every other setting many argue that it is merit alone that should determine access and pay for example. Usually when they're trying to restrict minority employment opportunities.
Merit doesn't determine much of anything.

As a professional, your compensation is a function of how much you are willing to accept, how much your employer is willing to pay, and how much your peers are willing to accept. There is no competitive employment market for professional women soccer players, so their salary will pretty much always be a good deal less than the men.
 

Spinluck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,477
Chicago
You can tell women football still has a long way to go when the USA of all countries are four time champions.

Soccer is the girl sport here.

If we didn't have American Football, Basketball, and Baseball as the inner-city sports where both privileged and underprivileged alike can make it out from the bottom to the top. I think our men's team would be one of the best in the world.

The men's team is a reflection of how much the US cares about soccer and how far behind they are compared to other countries where that is still and will always likely be "the sport." For women here, soccer has been a thing for quite a long time. Back in the 70s it took off while others countries didn't really give a shit. The dominance shows.