• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Gowans

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
5,523
North East, UK
_108156615_stateofparties_lib_dem-nc.png


The Liberal Democrats have won the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election, leaving new PM Boris Johnson with a working majority in Parliament of one.

Jane Dodds overturned an 8,038 majority to beat incumbent Conservative Chris Davies by 1,425 votes.

Mr Davies stood again after being unseated by a petition following his conviction for a false expenses claim.

It was the first electoral test for Mr Johnson just eight days after becoming prime minister.

It is the quickest by-election defeat for any new prime minister since World War Two.

Now, with the thinnest possible working majority, he will have to rely heavily on the support of his own MPs and his confidence-and-supply partners the DUP to get any legislation passed in key votes.

 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,061
"Will of the people!"

Loses by-election

"We have to deliver Brexit which is what the people want!"

Loses another by-election
 

Deleted member 31133

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
4,155
Boris doesn't have the majority to get leaving the EU without a deal through Parliament. The chances of the EU agreeing to a deal are pretty much zero.

That doesn't leave many options. The only options I see are revoking A50, or going back to the people with another vote with three options

Whatever deal is on the table
Leaving without a deal
Revoking A50 and staying in the EU
 
OP
OP
Gowans

Gowans

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
5,523
North East, UK
Isn't there a rumour of a Con MP going to leave or switch to Lim Dems too? Wonder what a a minority gov means going into this?
 

Deleted member 31104

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
2,572
It's actually a practical working majority of 5.


There's a Tory MP who has lost the whip but will still vote with the government (-1 anti government vote + 1 government vote = majority of 3)
There's Kate Hoey, the DUP MP masquerading as a Labour MP from the most Liberal seat in the country who is retiring (-1 anti government vote +1 government vote on major brexit bills and VONC = majority of 5)

and you could add in Labour MP Jared O'Mara who is resigning in September 1 due to mental health, and who doesn't really vote anymore. -1 anti government vote.

You'd still need 3 Tories to vote against Johnston and the independents to vote against him in a VONC.
 

NekoFever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,009
Boris doesn't have the majority to get leaving the EU without a deal through Parliament. The chances of the EU agreeing to a deal are pretty much zero.

That doesn't leave many options. The only options I see are revoking A50, or going back to the people with another vote with three options

Whatever deal is on the table
Leaving without a deal
Revoking A50 and staying in the EU
I think it's blatantly obvious what he's thinking.

1. Make some noises about renegotiating that the EU will shoot down, knowing that the EU will shoot them down.
2. Claim to have been forced into no deal by the meanies at the EU refusing to negotiate. If Parliament doesn't stop it, blame all the negative effects on the EU punishing us. If Parliament stops it and forces another extension, claim to have been stitched up by the Westminster establishment.
3. Call an election, hoping that running a pro-Brexit platform and asking for the majority to deliver Brexit brings back Brexit Party voters, Brexit Party doesn't stand against pro-Brexit Tories, and/or the handful of Remain parties split that vote (all very possible).

They're certainly gearing up for an election, likely this year.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,690
Boris doesn't have the majority to get leaving the EU without a deal through Parliament. The chances of the EU agreeing to a deal are pretty much zero.

That doesn't leave many options. The only options I see are revoking A50, or going back to the people with another vote with three options

Whatever deal is on the table
Leaving without a deal
Revoking A50 and staying in the EU
He doesn't need to get No Deal through parliament.

There will be a sizeable pro no-deal majority after the imminent election, so don't get too excited.
This seems pretty unlikely. The Brexit party is splitting the Tory vote worse than UKIP ever did so far. Between that and Lib Dems picking up single issue Remain voters, there's a good chance a Lib-Lab coalition could work out.
 
Dec 2, 2017
20,641
I question whether an election would change anything honestly. Seems like we've resigned ourselves to hurtling towards no deal brexit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
767
He doesn't need to get No Deal through parliament.


This seems pretty unlikely. The Brexit party is splitting the Tory vote worse than UKIP ever did so far. Between that and Lib Dems picking up single issue Remain voters, there's a good chance a Lib-Lab coalition could work out.

Doubt it. The Labour vote is collapsing more than the Tories. Unless Labour agree to go 100% remain and the Lib Dems to formally stand down in the vast majority of constituencies / Labour in Tory / LD marginals, the Tories will win. You might still get 10% lost to the BP, but that means little when a good 15-20% of a potential Labour vote is with the Lib Dems. Right-wing voters are far more pragmatic come election time than centrists / leftists. They'll accept any fucker in order to further their ideology.

Personally, I cannot stand the LDs and consider them a disingenuous, centre-right, austerity & poverty loving bunch of turds, but if I have to lend them my vote in order to push my Brexit-ultra Tory MP closer to the exit, I will.
 
Last edited:

Minilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,514
Tokyo
Labour and that corbyn prick are a disaster. There should be a coalition formed by now with general election set with a 2nd vote revoke promise
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,726
England
c'mon do something corbo

giphy.webp

Corbyn's leadership saw Labour to a 12.5% slump in the vote in this by-election - actually more than the Conservative share loss - and they came dead last apart from Monster Raving Loony and UKIP. They were a handful of votes from having such a small share that they would've lost their deposit. What is he supposed to do?

In real terms, a LD surge in the next GE is currently the best we can hope for, as Corbyn and the current Labour brass is clearly as tainted electorally as Johnson and his nightmarish cabinet are.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
Ireland
I'm not greatly familiar with the UK election system but in a first past the post voting system wouldn't the current landscape greatly benefit the pro brexit side for a general election on the presumption that Tories and Brexit party would cooperate to only run a single pro-brexit candidate in each constituency while Lib Dems and Labour will battle each other and split the Remain vote?
 
Oct 27, 2017
767
Corbyn's leadership saw Labour to a 12.5% slump in the vote in this by-election - actually more than the Conservative share loss - and they came dead last apart from Monster Raving Loony and UKIP. They were a handful of votes from having such a small share that they would've lost their deposit. What is he supposed to do?

In real terms, a LD surge in the next GE is currently the best we can hope for, as Corbyn and the current Labour brass is clearly as tainted electorally as Johnson and his nightmarish cabinet are.

Won't do anything with FPTP. If the Tories got, say, 30% nationwide followed by the LDs on 28 & Labour 20%, there would be no overall majority but the Tories combined with DUP would be the only realistic government. Labour would still have far more seats than the LDs, and even with the SNP a coalition of both would be miles away from being able to form a government. I wouldn't normally be disappointed to see a heartless, right-wing party like the LDs shut out, but when the alternative is the current Tory party...

I think Corbyn getting out of dodge remains the most viable path to a half-decent government, but he instead seems to prefer getting a very generous salary to provide ineffective opposition to right-wing dominance.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,627
I'm not greatly familiar with the UK election system but in a first past the post voting system wouldn't the current landscape greatly benefit the pro brexit side for a general election on the presumption that Tories and Brexit party would cooperate to only run a single pro-brexit candidate in each constituency while Lib Dems and Labour will battle each other and split the Remain vote?
That depends on the Brexit Party and the Tories cooperating, which is still by no means a certain thing.

In this by-election, the Brexit Party ate some of the Tory vote, while Plaid Cymru stood aside to allow the Lib Dem candidate to be the vote for Remain.
 

Mavis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,476
Blue Mountains
I'm not greatly familiar with the UK election system but in a first past the post voting system wouldn't the current landscape greatly benefit the pro brexit side for a general election on the presumption that Tories and Brexit party would cooperate to only run a single pro-brexit candidate in each constituency while Lib Dems and Labour will battle each other and split the Remain vote?
In theory. The problem is that the Tories will not cede any seats they have a chance of winning so the Brexit Party would probably only run in Labour or LD strongholds, they are unlikely to get anywhere if they have a formal agreement as the Labour seats will never vote Tory, even under a different name and the LD seats are probably pro-remain anyway.
I don't think they'll back down from hitting as many seats as possible. Farage doesn't give a fuck about brexit, he just wants to be relevant. If Brexit happens he loses his EU job, his party collapses and he'll be out in the wilderness as far as British politics go. His only hope would be hanging on to Trump and hoping he gets fuckwit right wing douchebags to pay to listen to his shitty speeches in the US. If they do pick up a few seats and Brexit is cancelled then he's good for another decade or two, either staying in EU politics or trying for a seat as an MP. Best thing the next government could do is make him a Lord, he'd have to ditch his seat in the EU and would be mostly useless in the House of Lords, if he refused it would go against every royal loving racist tosser that he considers his base.
 

NekoFever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,009
I'm not greatly familiar with the UK election system but in a first past the post voting system wouldn't the current landscape greatly benefit the pro brexit side on the presumption that Tories and Brexit party would cooperate to only run a single pro-brexit candidate in each constituency while Lib Dems and Labour will battle each other and split the Remain vote?
It's more complicated than that but there's a fair chance that a Tory/Brexit pact could return a majority. But even getting that to happen requires a lot of big egos working together and could turn off moderates, so who knows? There are anti-Brexit Tories in pro-Remain seats who aren't particularly vulnerable to a Brexit Party challenge too.

The splitting of the Remain vote is even more complicated. A lot of the outright anti-Brexit vote has left Labour already, but there are the Lib Dems, Greens, SNP (in Scotland) and Plaid Cymru (in Wales) fighting over that vote. Some of those are in talks about a formal alliance to not stand candidates against each other already (notice that the Greens and Plaid didn't stand against the Lib Dem in this byelection) but that won't involve Labour.

In short, who the fuck knows?
 
Oct 31, 2017
344
A GE is definitely coming in the Autumn, the Labour Party in particular needs to urgently use this summer to prepare and get their house in some kind of order before it kicks off in earnest.
The Tories are essentially in campaign mode already at this point and if Labour doesn't wake up to that danger immediately they're going to be in trouble.
 

Rabalder.

Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,481
I drove through Brecon last night and saw sooo many Lib Dem banners and signs. Warmed my heart.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,629
Labour and that corbyn prick are a disaster. There should be a coalition formed by now with general election set with a 2nd vote revoke promise

Labour have guaranteed that, if elected, there will be a second referendum with remain on the ballot.

They have already called for a VONC and will do again as soon as there is a chance it would pass.

What more do you want?
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,209
Hull, UK
If there's an election before no deal Brexit, the Tories lose to the Brexit Party because the Brexit Party supporters trust Farage more than the Tories to deliver the unicorn no deal Brexit they want.

 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,629
Corbyn's leadership saw Labour to a 12.5% slump in the vote in this by-election - actually more than the Conservative share loss - and they came dead last apart from Monster Raving Loony and UKIP. They were a handful of votes from having such a small share that they would've lost their deposit. What is he supposed to do?

In real terms, a LD surge in the next GE is currently the best we can hope for, as Corbyn and the current Labour brass is clearly as tainted electorally as Johnson and his nightmarish cabinet are.

It has been a Tory/Lib Dem marginal since the 70s. Ridiculous to interpret anything from this by-election.

The next Prime Minister is going to be Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. Melts who choose Lib Dem are voting for Boris and No Deal.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,629
Corbyn has destroyed labour, their polling is far worse than any other party.

How he has managed to do this throughout the current goverment is a spectacular failure.

Labour Leaders ranked by how many percentage points they gained in their 1st general election:
+9.5 - Corbyn (2017)
+8.9 - Clynes (1922)
+8.8 - Blair (1997)
+7.2 - Attlee (1935)
+3.2 - Kinnock (1987)
+1.5 - Miliband (2015)
+1.0 - MacDonald (1923)
+0.3 - Wilson (1964)

Labour Leaders ranked by how many votes they gained in 1st General Election:
+3.5m - Corbyn, 2017
+2.0m - Blair, 1997
+1.9m - Clynes, 1922
+1.6m - Attlee, 1935
+1.5m - Kinnock, 1987
+730k - Miliband, 2015
+191k - MacDonald,1923
+75k - Callaghan, 1979
 

Chris.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,920
Labour Leaders ranked by how many percentage points they gained in their 1st general election:
+9.5 - Corbyn (2017)
+8.9 - Clynes (1922)
+8.8 - Blair (1997)
+7.2 - Attlee (1935)
+3.2 - Kinnock (1987)
+1.5 - Miliband (2015)
+1.0 - MacDonald (1923)
+0.3 - Wilson (1964)

Labour Leaders ranked by how many votes they gained in 1st General Election:
+3.5m - Corbyn, 2017
+2.0m - Blair, 1997
+1.9m - Clynes, 1922
+1.6m - Attlee, 1935
+1.5m - Kinnock, 1987
+730k - Miliband, 2015
+191k - MacDonald,1923
+75k - Callaghan, 1979
Not saying you're wrong but to play devils advocate that could say more about the state of labour rather than Corbyn himself.

eg Callaghan could have gotten 20M votes up from 19,925k but Corbyn could have gotten 10M votes up from 6.5M, random figures obviously, but you get my point. In that scenario, Callaghan would be the best but on the figures you posted he's the worst.

Comparing votes and %'s to previous leaders/PM's is silly cause it's always in a different timeframe that can't really be compared or summarised down to a few numbers.
 

StalinTheCat

Member
Oct 30, 2017
720
Corbyn has destroyed labour, their polling is far worse than any other party.

How he has managed to do this throughout the current goverment is a spectacular failure.
We don't have to exaggerate, Labour are already in a bit of a shit situation.

They are still polling in second place per https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...g-intention-con-32-lab-22-lib-dem-19-brex-13-
but I admit that being second with this car crash of government is really bad.

You are biased against Corbyn anyway though.

I am really angry at his inability to be clear on the Brexit strategy and his seemingly complete lack of persona from the press in general. He seems genuinely to be an old school politician, something that might seriously be good for the country but that will not work nowadays.

I would never get to the point of considering Johnson better PM than Corbyn, as you have done it in the other thread (if I remember correctly).
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,726
England
It has been a Tory/Lib Dem marginal since the 70s. Ridiculous to interpret anything from this by-election.

The next Prime Minister is going to be Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. Melts who choose Lib Dem are voting for Boris and No Deal.

It's not ridiculous at all; if Labour is down over 12% in a region where they didn't stand a chance, that's one thing. If anything close to that dip is found in other, competitive seats, the party faces electoral annihilation. Even in a seat where Labour stands no chance, history would dictate that you'd expect them to see a subtle rise given the unpopularity of the current government. I live in such a seat - it's a CON vs LD gauntlet, but there was a significant swing in LAB's favor (that has now sapped away).

This isn't supposition either: you can look at any by election in recent memory where an incumbent government has survived with a reduced mandate for an example of where the Labour vote should be trending, and in this instance, it's going the wrong way.

Indeed, Corbyn's Labour has suffered in by elections regardless of how safe the seat is for or against Labour. In 2015, they contested one seat and saw a 7% rise. In 2016 they fought 6 contested seats; four were negative, two were positive. In 2017, 2018 and 2019 they have contested six seats, and every one has been negative. The four in 2018 and 2019 have been particularly brutal: three were down by over 17%, this one by 12.5%.

There is a pattern here, even if people really devoted to Corbyn don't want to see it.


Not saying you're wrong but to play devils advocate that could say more about the state of labour rather than Corbyn himself.

eg Callaghan could have gotten 20M votes up from 19,925k but Corbyn could have gotten 10M votes up from 6.5M, random figures obviously, but you get my point. In that scenario, Callaghan would be the best but on the figures you posted he's the worst.

Comparing votes and %'s to previous leaders/PM's is silly cause it's always in a different timeframe that can't really be compared or summarised down to a few numbers.

You're absolutely right, but politics is always top-down. If Corbyn can't figure out what needs to change policy and presentation wise to turn things around, the buck stops with the current leadership team and they have to make way for somebody who has an idea if the party is to really compete.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
Labour Leaders ranked by how many percentage points they gained in their 1st general election:
+9.5 - Corbyn (2017)
+8.9 - Clynes (1922)
+8.8 - Blair (1997)
+7.2 - Attlee (1935)
+3.2 - Kinnock (1987)
+1.5 - Miliband (2015)
+1.0 - MacDonald (1923)
+0.3 - Wilson (1964)

Labour Leaders ranked by how many votes they gained in 1st General Election:
+3.5m - Corbyn, 2017
+2.0m - Blair, 1997
+1.9m - Clynes, 1922
+1.6m - Attlee, 1935
+1.5m - Kinnock, 1987
+730k - Miliband, 2015
+191k - MacDonald,1923
+75k - Callaghan, 1979

Some rather odd metrics to pick as total number of votes won is a slightly more important indicator of political success.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,629
Not saying you're wrong but to play devils advocate that could say more about the state of labour rather than Corbyn himself.

eg Callaghan could have gotten 20M votes up from 19,925k but Corbyn could have gotten 10M votes up from 6.5M, random figures obviously, but you get my point. In that scenario, Callaghan would be the best but on the figures you posted he's the worst.

I just listed factual data.

State of Labour was indeed very bad. Bland centrist leaders were killing the party, with wonderful things such as mugs displaying "controls on immigration" and:



When Miliband resigned, just 190,000 people were members of the Labour Party. Today at least 500,000 are members thanks in large part to Corbyn.

I know I seem like the Corbyn fan club right now, but I have a lot of issues with him. I just find most of the criticism from the right and centrists so absurd.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,849
What a fuck up.

The choices are:
Jeremy Corbyn and his high flying circus who are totally unelectable

Or

Boris and co who want to quit the EU no matter how bad the consequences.

Between a rock and a hard place
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Labour Leaders ranked by how many percentage points they gained in their 1st general election:
+9.5 - Corbyn (2017)
+8.9 - Clynes (1922)
+8.8 - Blair (1997)
+7.2 - Attlee (1935)
+3.2 - Kinnock (1987)
+1.5 - Miliband (2015)
+1.0 - MacDonald (1923)
+0.3 - Wilson (1964)

Labour Leaders ranked by how many votes they gained in 1st General Election:
+3.5m - Corbyn, 2017
+2.0m - Blair, 1997
+1.9m - Clynes, 1922
+1.6m - Attlee, 1935
+1.5m - Kinnock, 1987
+730k - Miliband, 2015
+191k - MacDonald,1923
+75k - Callaghan, 1979
Like, this is a really silly metric to use. Maximum apples to oranges comparison between all these in a ton of ways.
 

Gawge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,629
What a fuck up.

The choices are:
Jeremy Corbyn and his high flying circus who are totally unelectable

Or

Boris and co who want to quit the EU no matter how bad the consequences.

Between a rock and a hard place

I just want to stay in the EU and kill some poor people, is that so much to ask for. I'm politically homeless.
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
Labour have guaranteed that, if elected, there will be a second referendum with remain on the ballot.

They have already called for a VONC and will do again as soon as there is a chance it would pass.

What more do you want?

They want to keep crying "he's unelectable!"

A lot of Corbyn criticism on this forum sounds like it's been ripped straight outta the mouth of a Question Time Tory plant audience member
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,645
I think it's blatantly obvious what he's thinking.

1. Make some noises about renegotiating that the EU will shoot down, knowing that the EU will shoot them down.
2. Claim to have been forced into no deal by the meanies at the EU refusing to negotiate. If Parliament doesn't stop it, blame all the negative effects on the EU punishing us. If Parliament stops it and forces another extension, claim to have been stitched up by the Westminster establishment.
3. Call an election, hoping that running a pro-Brexit platform and asking for the majority to deliver Brexit brings back Brexit Party voters, Brexit Party doesn't stand against pro-Brexit Tories, and/or the handful of Remain parties split that vote (all very possible).

They're certainly gearing up for an election, likely this year.
He's absolutely making several bluff plays over the next few months, he will decided on which one is necessary at any given time.

He's going to try and play the the EU to see if they blink, then parliament to see if they blink, and then if those don't work he will definitely use it to galvanise pro-Brexit sentiment in a GE.

To paraphrase something I saw earlier, he has no intention of "uniting the country" - what he actually wants to to unite the Brexit vote behind him.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Anyone thinking that the Lib dems are anything close to acceptable should probably google "Tory - Lib Dem Coalition"

Also remember that their new leader has explictly come out against a coalition with Labour. They probably want another coalition.