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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
which don't seem to be pushing anything that would warrant cutting the usual standard framerate in half.

Super Double Dragon displays 6 enemy sprites on screen at once - two per character. The SNES has four modes for sprite sizes, and all sprites have to be the same size. in Super Double Dragon, to save VRAM, all sprites are 16x16 big instead of, say, 32x32 or 64x64. This lets them make rectangular sprites for tall skinny characters without wasting blank pixels, but the downside is that the SNES now has to process 6 objects on screen at once, plus two for the player. The SNES lacks registers to do this. The more objects to process, the longer the calculation time. By contrast, Final Fight on the SNES needed to limit itself infamously to just two enemies on screen at a time, both 32x32 big, to cut down on the number of objects on screen. SNES Final Fight has less than half the objects on screen as Super Double Dragon.

Again, this is why the Sega CD version of Final Fight could, by comparison, throw 6 enemies on screen at once. Not only does the 68000 have more registers to work with, the Sega Genesis VDP is also more flexible in terms of sprite size -- every sprite on screen can be any arbitrary power of two size. This means you can create a rectangular sprite with just one sprite, instead of needing to layer two onto each other. So the Genesis can put more enemies on screen at once, because each enemy occupies less VRAM and takes less objects to make up, and it has more registers to hold them.

It's truthfully not surprising at all that a game like Super Double Dragon doesn't run at 60 fps.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
Super Double Dragon displays 6 enemy sprites on screen at once - two per character. The SNES has four modes for sprite sizes, and all sprites have to be the same size. in Super Double Dragon, to save VRAM, all sprites are 16x16 big instead of, say, 32x32 or 64x64. This lets them make rectangular sprites for tall skinny characters without wasting blank pixels, but the downside is that the SNES now has to process 6 objects on screen at once, plus two for the player. The SNES lacks registers to do this. The more objects to process, the longer the calculation time. By contrast, Final Fight on the SNES needed to limit itself infamously to just two enemies on screen at a time, both 32x32 big, to cut down on the number of objects on screen. SNES Final Fight has less than half the objects on screen as Super Double Dragon.

Again, this is why the Sega CD version of Final Fight could, by comparison, throw 6 enemies on screen at once. Not only does the 68000 have more registers to work with, the Sega Genesis VDP is also more flexible in terms of sprite size -- every sprite on screen can be any arbitrary power of two size. This means you can create a rectangular sprite with just one sprite, instead of needing to layer two onto each other. So the Genesis can put more enemies on screen at once, because each enemy occupies less VRAM and takes less objects to make up, and it has more registers to hold them.

It's truthfully not surprising at all that a game like Super Double Dragon doesn't run at 60 fps.
Thanks for the explanation.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
The SNES was awesome but, like every system, it was hardly perfect. It was a bit weak for certain kinds of action platformers. I like Hagane and Run Saber but they're no Shinobi III or Strider. There were CD-ROM experiences back then with no real equivalents on SNES, like Snatcher and Sam & Max. Its shooter selection is notably weaker than its two main rival consoles. Several multi-format games were better elsewhere. It's kind of crazy the degree this site puts the SNES on a pedestal as if it didn't have excellent competition that was better in some ways and worse in others.


I agree with this. But, some sites lean one way and others another way. I don't find the face that it's on a pedestal anywhere, crazy at all.
 

Yuuber

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,152
Yeah, It's one of the best consoles of all time. I have a soft spot for the Mega Drive but the Snes is indisputably better when it comes to the game library.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Thanks for the explanation.

multi-sprite objects in general are pretty hard on the SNES CPU. This is why you didn't really see effects like this:

2767871-ecco2.jpg




image1261.jpg


On the SNES very often. Not only is that a lot of objects to process, but having objects attach to one another like that requires calculations that check against other objects positions. That requires fast access to that data, which means they need to reside in registers. It's very hard, or very slow, for the SNES to do stuff like that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
It's one of my favorite consoles ever. It's baffling that Nintendo dropped the ball with the N64 and has been fumbling ever since. Even the Switch, which is probably my favorite home console from Nintendo since the SNES, feels behind the times and under the bar that Nintendo set themselves with the Wii U. At least there we had the Virtual console and I could play stuff like Wario Land 4.
 
Jan 31, 2019
289
Believe it or not the pixel art revival stuff was originally treated like this, now no one is going to tell you stuff like ffvi is ugly. Right now early 3d is really polarizing but I bet it'll become as well liked as 2d was due to nostalgia and due to new games with the aesthetic tricking people like shovel knight into thinking the look was better than it was

But I truly believe some ps1 and a lot of Saturn and n64 3d really holds up
Thanks for your point of view. I am going to look at some older 3D games with an open mind. I already am coming around to some (wipeout, jumping flash)
 

TheOne

Alt Account
Banned
May 25, 2019
947
Yes, the SNES will always be my favorite console from that era. Really enjoyed my Genesis tremendously, but back then when I had a genesis but no SNES, I was jealous. Then I finally had one and loved it as much as I thought I would. Sorry Genesis. We had a good run but you'll never match the SNES in my mind. No amount of amazing shmups will make me think of you as the superior console above the SNES and its amazing library.

If we had to do SNES vs PS1 though, this would kill me.
 

Mzo

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,165
The PS1 was a really underrated 2D console.
And I even forgot to list amazing games like Valkyrie Profile and Silhouette Mirage.

The SNES was good for it's time, but the PS1 was better for it's time. I've only made the argument with 2D games so far, but add in the floodgate of 3D games and it's no contest.

Especially if we're comparing RPGs. The sheer scope and variety of PS1 JRPGs destroys the SNES. The PS1 has tons of amazing shmups where the SNES has 2 or 3 (Axelay, R-Type III, UN Squadron?) The PS1 has the entire music/rhythm genre that didn't exist on the SNES, which was huge. It has far better light gun games than the SNES. It has more fighting games than the SNES. It has more racing games than the SNES, and even has a Mario Kart competitor in CTR.

I can see the argument for the SNES being someone's favorite system, since that's completely their own opinion. Shit, my favorite system is the Sega CD. I love it. It's not the best. I understand.

I don't really see the argument for the SNES being the top system of all time. I can argue the PS1 against it easily, and I don't even think the PS1 is the greatest system of all time. The only argument I'm seeing is that it's the one that was played when the person was a kid. Cool, I did too, but better systems have come and gone, regardless of whether or not you've explored their libraries.
 

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
Banned
Feb 25, 2018
8,536
Best console ever. It will always stay my favorite (nostalgia).

The 16 bit era was awesome. The competition with Sega was fun!
 

Shion

Member
Nov 8, 2017
216
Oh shit, you're right! We'll go with 5 because I even like the shitty slowdown-ridden downport of Gradius 3.
Try Fantastic Parodius, Darius Force and Pop'n TwinBee, they are much better games than Gradius III and Axelay IMO.

Yes, the SNES will always be my favorite console from that era. Really enjoyed my Genesis tremendously, but back then when I had a genesis but no SNES, I was jealous. Then I finally had one and loved it as much as I thought I would. Sorry Genesis. We had a good run but you'll never match the SNES in my mind. No amount of amazing shmups will make me think of you as the superior console above the SNES and its amazing library.
The Mega Drive/Genesis has amazing games in every single genre, not just in shmups. Even in RPGs, games like Phantasy Star IV and Lunar are on par with the best the SNES has to offer.
 

TheOne

Alt Account
Banned
May 25, 2019
947
The Mega Drive/Genesis has amazing games in every single genre, not just in shmups. Even in RPGs, games like Phantasy Star IV and Lunar are on par with the best the SNES has to offer.

I was merely pointing out the genre that appeals to me the most on the Genesis. Why are you so defensive about it? And when it comes to RPGs, I'm sorry but the Genesis is very lackluster compared to the SNES. It has some great titles, but the SNES had tons of them, of the same caliber or better.

Whatever you say won't change the way I feel about it and how I felt back then.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Easily my favorite console ever and it holds up incredibly well.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,936
I had the Mega Drive, although much later into the '90s and I'll always be a Sega superfan but the SNES is probably the best console ever.
Playing the games from back then, you just get the sense that a lot of the devs finally had their hands on a system that let them really stretch their legs creatively in terms of visuals, sound and overall scope.
 

JayCeeJim

Member
Jan 3, 2019
467
As a kid I bought the Mega Drive when the SNES still hadn't arrived in Europe and loved it. Then the SNES was announced and I saw all those mode 7 effects and that deep color palette and I thought "holy shit I've made a terrible mistake".

But then it actually released, and libraries were developed for both of them, and I enjoyed the Mega Drive immensely. Later, I played most of the SNES highlights on modern systems, and I'm fully convinced I made the right choice by going Mega Drive at the time. It simply had more (or better) games that appealed to me (action, sports, platformers). The story would be different if I had ever been into RPGS, though. So I understand the love it gets from many people.

By the way, I never liked then and don't like now how SNES sounds. It's truly distinctive, but horrendous to my ears :-D. And, at the same time, I recognize I made a big mistake when I later bought a Mega CD instead of a SNES back then. Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island and Tetris Attack (my three favorite SNES games) would have given me much more joy than what I got from the add-on...
 

kidnemo

Member
Dec 11, 2017
1,161
It's one of my favorite consoles ever. It's baffling that Nintendo dropped the ball with the N64 and has been fumbling ever since. Even the Switch, which is probably my favorite home console from Nintendo since the SNES, feels behind the times and under the bar that Nintendo set themselves with the Wii U. At least there we had the Virtual console and I could play stuff like Wario Land 4.

Bafflingly fumbled the gameboy advance, nintendo ds, nintendo 3ds, and nintendo switch right into my hands which are all ridiculously great little systems. I hope they continue with more mind numbing boggles like this in the future!

PS - I'm not sure any videogame console is "perfect" but the super nintendo is definitely one of my favorites of all time, if not my single most favorite.
 
Mar 5, 2019
559
I feel like action heavy focused games were a bit lacking in comparison to the NES and especially Genesis. The only great ones I can think of are Contra 3 and Mega Man X. Castlevania IV is a downgrade in comparison to 1 and 3, Gradius 3 and Ghouls n Ghosts are plagued by slowdown, and Final Fight is an embarrassment in comparison to Streets of Rage. Other action games like Zelda and Metroid are elevated because of exploration and puzzles.

It's still one of my favorite consoles, but its CPU limited what genres thrived on it.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
GOAT console, most of the games haven't aged and still just as fun

Can't say the same about PS2, most of those games are rough to look at and feel stiff
 

TheJollyCorner

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
9,475
I agree with the OP other than the image of that ghastly version of the SFAM/SNES.

Purple and gray for life!! 😎
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,065
SNES would have been perfect if it had a CPU that was fast like the 68000 series was.

It was incredible anyway.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,058
It was host to an era of refinement, and was part of the last era of 2D dominance so many of it s greatest games were essentially never iterated on again.

In some ways it was the PS2 of its time.
 

Nax

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 10, 2018
6,674
SNES is still one of my favorite consoles. It's quite possibly the favorite. So much good stuff.
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
I prefer the PS2. Tons of great 1st and 3rd party games, backward compatible with PS1 games and probably a lot of people's first DVD player.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,436
Its my favorite console of all time. Its just the single greatest library, so many genres were hitting their stride. You are talking about a generation that included Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, Donkey Kong Country, Mario Kart, FF6, LTTP, Super Metroid, Secret of Mana Star Fox, ActRaiser, Final Fight, Populous, Earthworm Jim, Gradius 3, Breath of Fire, NBA Jam, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Bust A Move, Super Bomberman, Kirby, Turtles in Time... Jesus, even a lot of the licensed stuff was great. It was far too many fantastic gems, and the start of so many great franchises in such a humongous array of genres.. Ridiculous.

Eeeeeeh, I see this said about a lot of classic systems and I sometimes wonder if it's worth explaining that the way these systems worked isn't analogous to the current systems and how we process the data and render the frames. If you consider games running full speed as 60fps, then no classic system has a fully "60fps" catalog as all of them have games that will slow down in places.

Im curious about what you mean here? Games drop below 60 and 30 fps today too. Whats the difference between slowdown in gradius 3 and a current gen game failing to maintain its full framerate? Genuine question.
 
Last edited:

Pasedo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
52
I loved this system so much I used to cover it in a soft towel after every use and lock it in a box as I didn't want my brothers using it without my being there to make sure my baby wasn't being abused.
 

Wood Man

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,449
I remember I wanted a Genesis becase 10 year old me thought it was cooler and edgy. My dad was like "nope we had a NES, so we're staying with Nintendo." Thanks for that decision dad.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
The US SNES looked so much better then the super famicom.

The SNES is an incredible console, the second best of all time behind only the 360.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,690
Reno
The SNES is my favorite Nintendo console, although I've retired my Super Famicom in favor of an Analogue Super NT (which is the best way to play SNES games in 2019).

It took everything I loved about the NES and made it better.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,662
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
I don't think so. Its the best Nintendo console but far from perfect. It had a weak CPU which made heavy action and sports games a sub par experience, low resolution and the sound was muffled at times. The game catalog is insane though. But the good thing is that both the SNES and the Genesis were complementary platforms.

SNES - JRPGS - Fighting Games
Genesis - Arcade games, Action games - Sports games
The SNES has an edge due to better third party support but the Genesis was a beast.

The Goat console is still the PS2. It would have been awesome if it was given the "Pro" treatment as it was the weakest of the sixth gen ones.
 

SolidChamp

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,867
The US SNES looked so much better then the super famicom.

The SNES is an incredible console, the second best of all time behind only the 360.

That's fine for you and all of that, but for me personally, the 360 isn't even top 5 due to the appalling RRoD fiasco and finishing on one of the weakest notes ever for a console life cycle.

The SNES is near the top for sure.

In no particular order:

Objectively
SNES
PS2

Subjectively
PS4
 

SolidChamp

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,867
I don't think so. Its the best Nintendo console but far from perfect. It had a weak CPU which made heavy action and sports games a sub par experience, low resolution and the sound was muffled at times. The game catalog is insane though. But the good thing is that both the SNES and the Genesis were complementary platforms.

SNES - JRPGS - Fighting Games
Genesis - Arcade games, Action games - Sports games
The SNES has an edge due to better third party support but the Genesis was a beast.

The Goat console is still the PS2. It would have been awesome if it was given the "Pro" treatment as it was the weakest of the sixth gen ones.

Yet still managed to see some technical behemoths like God of War 1 & 2 and MGS3.

Those games were the best looking games of the gen.

The SNES, in my mind, always had the better looking games. There was a greater range of colors which made the images really pop. SEGA games always looked a bit flatter and more washed out to me. Also, the SNES had the superior audio showcase.