The Steady Decline of BioWare- USGamer

[SeanBoocock]

The reason why KOTOR 3 hasn't been greenlit is pretty simple, IMO. EA has no interest in that style game anymore. They don't want a purely single player game with a heavy story focus. They just don't. At least not ones they'd have to spend a fortune on.

They want something that can be turned around quick while leveraging popular IP, and I think EA will probably double down on that after Anthems rocky launch. EA is more likely to sell microtransactions garbage in an online multiplayer title than a single player story based title.

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Bioware has never shipped a game that sold enough units to justify the budget that a AAA "KOTOR 3" would demand with Disney's royalty. Beyond that, what is "KOTOR 3" in 2019 when Disney is not interested in letting a licensee continue that story line? If I was a VP at EA and a Bioware executive producer pitched me on DA4 and "star wars RPG project" I would greenlight Dragon Age every time, confident in the knowledge that the studio was capable of delivering a high quality and maybe, eventually, profitable game.

 

[tuxfool]

If I was a VP at EA and a Bioware executive producer pitched me on DA4 and "star wars RPG project" I would greenlight Dragon Age every time, confident in the knowledge that the studio was capable of delivering a high quality and maybe, eventually, profitable game.

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As a VP how would you be confident of that, today?

 

[Kalentan]

It really does feel like more and more people kinda just want the company to go under and all these people to lose their jobs.

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I've gotten that impression about ERA's feelings towards more than just Bioware. It's really weird.

 

[Youngfossil]

Bioware has never shipped a game that sold enough units to justify the budget that a AAA "KOTOR 3" would demand with Disney's royalty. Beyond that, what is "KOTOR 3" in 2019 when Disney is not interested in letting a licensee continue that story line? If I was a VP at EA and a Bioware executive producer pitched me on DA4 and "star wars RPG project" I would greenlight Dragon Age every time, confident in the knowledge that the studio was capable of delivering a high quality and maybe, eventually, profitable game.

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Doesnt need to be a KOTOR 3, could be a completely different time period

 

[Hailinel]

Doesnt need to be a KOTOR 3, could be a completely different time period

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Even then, it would still need to meet Disney's approval process.

 

[rras1994]

Even then, it would still need to meet Disney's approval process.

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And you'd still have to deal with Disney's massive cut as well. I thinks it's something like 20%? When you add the retailers cut and the platform cut, you need to sell alot of copies to breakeven. It kinda makes sense why BioWare originally passed on KOTOR 2 and made their own IP Mass Effect so they didn't have to pay a cut.

 

[AntiMacro]

When you're forced to admit that even Mass Effect 2, arguably the best game they've ever made, still had its share of critics...maybe it's not BioWare. Maybe you just can't make everyone happy, and that used to be ok and now it's not lol

 

[HK-47]

KOTOR, ME, ME2 & ME3, masterpieces.

This gen happens, then DA:I, Andromeda, Anthem. All shite games with embarrassing stories.

Bloody EA.

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Don't know how you could called DAI embarrassing while called ME3 a masterpiece

 

[00lsen]

I've gotten that impression about ERA's feelings towards more than just Bioware. It's really weird.

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we're still on the Internet, even despite being on the most liberal gaming forum, people will still be people

 

[Amiablepercy]

Don't know how you could called DAI embarrassing while called ME3 a masterpiece

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I really enjoy Dragon Age Inquisition and playing through Nightmare mode right now with my new PC and really looking forward to DA4. I didn't hate ME: Andromeda as much as others did and it actually did some things I preferred over ME3.

 

[Nashira]

Don't know how you could called DAI embarrassing while called ME3 a masterpiece

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Did DAI have Quarian sweat glands? I think not.

 

[jerfdr]

I take issue with a lot of this article as it seems intent on proving the author's point, which is really just their personal feeling, ie "BioWare doesn't make games I personally want."

For example:



This is just an odd statement. DA:I was a critical success winning GOTY, it's also the most financially successful game, in terms of sales, in BioWare's history. So, the idea that BioWare began to decline after their most successful and critically lauded title is a bit weird. Now, is there plenty to complain about DA:I? Yes. But, those are nitpicks from "hardcore" RPG fans, myself included, they did not seem to hurt the reception of the game to the larger audience.

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That mostly says something about the weakness of the competition that year, and not particularly about the strength of DA:I.

Continuing on we get this unfair comparison to The Witcher 3:



I take issue with so many parts of this statement. First, is the idea that TW3 received universal acclaim while DA:I did not. Again, that is simply factually untrue. Both games won GOTY of their respective years, both received critical praise. Second, is the idea that TW3 is the game people expected from BioWare or was "richly realized" in a way BioWare games hadn't been. Listen, I LOVE TW3. In fact, it's my GOTG. But, TW3 is nothing like old BioWare titles besides being a RPG. TW3 is a single character-action RPG with a incredibly defined protagonist. It's actual RPG systems are extremely bare bones, even compared to Mass Effect 2 or DA:I. There is no party combat, you play as Geralt and only control Geralt (with the exception of brief Ciri segments). And, the player does not get to create their own character, they play as Geralt, a defined protagonist from a previous set of games and books. You can shape your Geralt a bit depending on your choices, but only so much. You can't make a Evil Geralt, that's not his character nor can you make a racist Geralt; again that's not his character.

TW3 is a completely different game than your typical party-based BioWare RPG with extremely slim RPG systems. Again, I love TW3 but it's going for something entirely different. Right now, BioWare is the only developer (at least for a time) making AAA RPGs with party combat. Hell, even FFXV shipped without the ability to control your party members. And, Andromeda didn't have it either. One can hope that DA4 brings party combat back.

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I think that the comparison is fair since despite these games being quite different mechanically, they still both have sidequests (and story in general), and Witcher 3 clearly trumps DA:I on this front. DA:I is a collection of boatloads of MMO-like filler with few and far inbetween interesting quests, while almost every Witcher 3 sidequest contains interesting story and/or characters.

 

[LordBaztion]

Inquisition is one of the high points in bioware's history with comercial and critical success plus a strong set up for Dragon Age 4.

Andromeda was a troubled game made by the B team. I kind aunderstand Bioware's curent situation with Anthem, during the development, some key staff left the Company plus that this kind of service game is a different kind of challenge for the studio. It did launched with several issues but the overall perception around it seems very familiar to what happened to Destiny and The Division. I'm sure within a year Anthem is going to be an excelent game but what worries me is the future of Dragon Age after the key designers of the series left. I hope they are able to make it justice because the foundation of the series and previous entry has lead to something that can be magical.

 

[Rodney McKay]

When you're forced to admit that even Mass Effect 2, arguably the best game they've ever made, still had its share of critics...maybe it's not BioWare. Maybe you just can't make everyone happy, and that used to be ok and now it's not lol

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I think these days it's less a matter of not making everyone happy, but rather not making enough people happy. I feel like with past Bioware games there's usually one or two things people complain about, but the games themselves aren't usually still good and do well with enough people to be considered "good" overall.

I liked and still like Dragon Age Inquisition (did a replay recently with all DLC), but Andromeda disappointed me so much that I no longer will buy their games day one anymore, and I doubt I'll even get Anthem unless they make some huge changes to it over the next year.

I don't think it's impossible for them to redeem themselves. Like when/if they make the next Dragon Age and they keep it largely the same as Inquisition I'll probably like it a lot. And I think it might still be possible for Anthem to end up as a quality game with enough tweaks and content updates.

 

[norwegiandude86]

I think the decline started with ME3 and all the controversy with that game including the preorder character which caused a shitstorm before the release involving probably the most entertaining character and an important one.

Drew Karpyshn the writer of ME2 was also not involved with ME3 he left right before ME2 was finished and Mac Walters did a fairly ok job for the most part but the ending was really botched.

Also the ending which is still debated to this day were a plotpoint that was never set up was introduced in the last 15 minutes the spacechild god I get angry just thinking about it.

 

[Huntersknoll]

That is fine. Let the next Dragon Age be the phoenix that rises BioWare from the ashes.

 

[sinny]

Even ME2 felt rushed, and after that all bioware games weren't as good.
In fact, as a game Anthem must be the best of all the games they did afterwards, even with all the problems it has.

 

[norwegiandude86]

Even ME2 felt rushed, and after that all bioware games weren't as good.
In fact, as a game Anthem must be the best of all the games they did afterwards, even with all the problems it has.

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I don't really see how you can reach that conclusion when ME2 is widely considered a great game and Biowares magnum opus while Anthem is the worst rated game they have released and in a rare occurrence seen as such by both critics and consumers alike.

Also how is Anthem with it's poorly designed hub and disjointed storytelling better than ME2 ?

 

[sinny]

I don't really see how you can reach that conclusion when ME2 is widely considered a great game and Biowares magnum opus while Anthem is the worst rated game they have released and in a rare occurrence seen as such by both critics and consumers alike.

Also how is Anthem with it's poorly designed hub and disjointed storytelling better than ME2 ?

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After...

ME2 is better than Anthem no doubt.

 

[Garlador]

Every time I hear "it's Bioware in name only" and "all the old staff have left", I kind of shake my head a bit.

For starters... no, not all of them have left. There has been staff turnover, even in leadership roles, but this has happened to OTHER studios without this much of a quality drop. I mentioned before, the "new" team hasn't even attempted a game that's equivalent to classic KOTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age: Origins, or Mass Effect; we have no idea if they could make something with the focus and scale of those games because they haven't been given the opportunity to do so.

And I'm reminded of something I read from Nintendo, about how they've gone generations with "the Nintendo touch", in large part due to the fact the people who were there from the beginning spend a lot of their time instructing the next generation in the art of sensible and efficient game design, to ensure their games are worthy successors to the original titles. Miyamoto's main focus at Nintendo these days is dedicated to making sure when he's gone that these series are in capable hands.

I don't know if Bioware EVER had this approach to their development or their staff changes.

 

[Son of Sparda]

That is fine. Let the next Dragon Age be the phoenix that rises BioWare from the ashes.

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I hope so, but after Anthem's reception I'm not sure if Bioware will even get to make that before PapEA takes it out for a walk.

I pray to God that I'm wrong tho. I really want old Bioware back.

 

[norwegiandude86]

After...

ME2 is better than Anthem no doubt.

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Sorry read that wrong but I think Andromeda was better than Anthem it still felt like a Bioware game while Anthem does not.

 

[Gunslinger]

Most of old BW employees are now long gone. It won't be the same again. Capcom was able to bounce back because most of the old staff are still there. Also BioWare shouldn't try online anymore they tried twice both times end result was not so good.

 

[Deleted member 27751]

I mean, I really am enjoying Anthem and what it offers but I take note in the faults it does have. Can they fix it? Certainly. Will they? Hopefully. Even the big hot takes that are saying it's core issues are built into the game and can never be change had the same thoughts with Destiny and that turned it around. These titles just seem to breed a "not ready" state of release like no tomorrow.

BioWare as a whole? They'll be fine. Experimentation is key to avoiding stagnation as much as we want the same thing over and over to tickle our nostalgia minds. If we kept getting it we'd get sick of it. Do I think BioWare has made some poor design decisions? Yeah, Andromeda speaks for itself.

Despite all the negativity surrounding them they are still a good dev, have made good titles and have a the drive to still do good. At least they aren't a soulless dev whose churning out one after the other of the same old crap. Imagine if we only ever got Dark Souls upon Dark Souls, no Bloodborne or Sekiro. How boring would that be and so mind numbingly safe.

Most of old BW employees are now long gone. It won't be the same again. Capcom was able to bounce back because most of the old staff are still there. Also BioWare shouldn't try online anymore they tried twice both times end result was not so good.

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If you are speaking about Star Wars Old Republic I have news for you: it's actually doing really, really well. About 4 million players last heard and nearly 200k daily users isn't bad for a game that started off troubled.

 

[ThereAreFourNaan]

I think these days it's less a matter of not making everyone happy, but rather not making enough people happy.

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Right, you need to cater towards a certain market and that market has to be large enough and satisfied enough to be profitable. Mass Effect 2 focusing on characters and action first and foremost turned out to be the correct move for the franchise, because although it alienated a small section of the audience, it attracted a larger one.

Dragon Age Inquisition is a game that I think only could have succeeded in 2014 or earlier, because if it came out 12 months later it would have launched in a world that had already seen much stronger open world games, much stronger RPGs, and much stronger action / fantasy generally. Witcher 3, Arkham Knight, Bloodborne, MGS5 etc. Weird comparisons you might say and I'm certainly not saying they're all "the same" or anything, just that if it had to go up against all those other games or launch after them, I think it would have been slaughtered even with an extra year of polish on top of the game.

I think it remains to be seen if Anthem is actually not a success, commercially. Critically it's disasterous of course but it wouldn't be the first service game to get bad initial reviews then limp on to eventual success.

 

[Deleted member 26526]

I'd have been fine with Inquisition if it wasn't a for want of a better description
"A single player MMO"
As is it just disappointed me.

Personally enjoying anthem though ...for now

 

[ket]

The success of games like Divinity Original Sin shows that there is absolutely an audience for RPGs that demand more of the player. You just need to commit to your idea, and execute well.

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Divinity Original Sin was made on 4.5 million euros: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-original-sin-almost-bankrupted-larian-studios/

 

[ThereAreFourNaan]

Divinity Original Sin was made on 4.5 million euros: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-divinity-original-sin-almost-bankrupted-larian-studios/

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DOS2 was a bigger more expensive game but the broad thinking that Bioware's games are too big to be sustained on the Divinity: Original Sin 2 audience is definitely true. It sold a million copies in a few weeks which was a huge milestone for such a lean production, but they would need to increase sales by a factor of 4 or 5 to be equivalently successful on an AAA budget.

 

[Stiler]

Yet again another article that groups the Bioware most people know (Bioware Edmonton) into the two other studios that had Bioware's named slapped to them because of EA, Bioware Austin (SW:TOR) and Bioware Montreal (ME: A).

People keep criticizing Bioware as a whole for SW:TOR and ME: Andromeda and they didn't even make those damn games (though yes, some of the developers from Edmonton did help on them, but Edmonton as a studio was not the main developer of either), it's so tiring seeing people constantly talk about how Bioware has been "bad" for years pumping out those games when they weren't even the studio behind them.

You want to talk about ME3 and DA:I? That's fine, both had problems (ME3 with it's ending that fell short and DA:I with it's too much padding and mmo style quests) but both of those games sold well, with DA:I being Bioware's best selling game of all time and they both still had some of the best written characters in an rpg and interesting stories, with just the missteps as I mentioned.

EA needs to just let Bioware Edmonton go back to doing what they do best, making good single player rpgs with well written characters and stories and don't rush them, give them the time they need to make it and the budget.

 

[Fart Master]

Yet, you'll hear hardcore fans talk about how Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 was the start of the decline of BioWare because they "streamlined" the RPG systems. Yet, both games have more "RPG depth" than TW3. In other words, "hardcore fans" don't know what they want.

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Mass Effect 2 does not have more RPG depth than TW3 lol. The reason why people criticize ME2 is because it was chasing the shooter craze of the late 2000s and early 2010s instead of building on ME1 strength and in general Biowares strengths.

Also, AC Odyssey is absolutely an RPG.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I think Bioware will land back on their feet. While DA:I, ME: A, and Anthem have their share of faults. You can tell there's a lot of capable people still at the studio who care about what they're making. It's just a matter of getting them back more on something they're suited for and with an engine that will have what they need. Versus having them jump face first into something and pray it works out by the end.

 

[Silent Disco]

BioWare died the day the doctors left. They felt it, the Studio was on a course set to fail. I'm still puzzled why Casey Hudson returned.

Too bad as the Bioware of old was my favorite studio back then.

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+1

"died" is a bit extreme but the general sentiment i share. interested to see if EA has more patience with anthem than me:a in correcting issues and allowing improvements in the actual story.

 

[Dysun]

Really the most damning thing you can say about BioWare is that they went trend chasing in lieu of greater sales, and its competitors showed there is a very big market in the kind of games they were already making.
The Witcher 3 and AC Odyssey are massively successful old-BioWare blueprint games.

They lost their identity, and have completely floundered since doing so.

 

[Arta]

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You beat me to that joke. :)

 

[Sanctuary]

It really does feel like more and more people kinda just want the company to go under and all these people to lose their jobs.

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No, but for those who want something remotely close to the old BioWare, the best result would be the core talent leaves and forms their own company similar to what Platinum did. Those that remain can make the standard, corporate recycled game that EA wants each year.

 

[rras1994]

No, but for those who want something remotely close to the old BioWare, the best result would be the core talent leaves and forms their own company similar to what Platinum did. Those that remain can make the standard, corporate recycled game that EA wants each year.

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Maybe, just maybe, the "core talent" are making the games they want to make and don't want to make the same games they made 20 years ago?

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Oh my god, how many clicks can people milk out of Anthem bad, KOTOR good? Anthem is much better than Andromeda, at least.

 

[Deleted member 18400]

It really does feel like more and more people kinda just want the company to go under and all these people to lose their jobs.

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I'm getting tired of this line lately.

Of course I don't want to put people out of work. Why would anyone wish that on someone?

But what are we supposed to do, just praise EA and Bioware for making a shit project and spend our hard earned money on the things they make regardless? I don't owe EA or the people who work for EA anything. They are in the business of selling video games. If they make shit products and the company goes under or has to make huge cutbacks I will feel bad for those people.

But I'm not fucking responsible.

 

[Hailinel]

Oh my god, how many clicks can people milk out of Anthem bad, KOTOR good? Anthem is much better than Andromeda, at least.

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You should probably read the article.

 

[TheGhost]

The writer acting surprised that Dragon Age had a multiplayer mode after the boatloads of money Bioware made from loot boxes in the highly addictive and always getting updated Mass Effect 3 multiplayer is funny.

ME3 - MP was the first console GaaS I can think of.

Constant content, new heroes, all free maps.

Of course they wanted lightning to strike twice.

 

[Deleted member 13101]

I think you're misinterpreting. The argument is not "We saw this coming back when ME1 released." It's "looking back, there's a path that led Bioware from ME1 to Anthem that's telling in retrospect."

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If it was written that way, then sure. But the way it was written, success was a poison cursing the company to naturally end up with Anthem. I'm just not seeing the past decade or so that way.

 

[VectorPrime]

The reason why KOTOR 3 hasn't been greenlit is pretty simple, IMO. EA has no interest in that style game anymore. They don't want a purely single player game with a heavy story focus. They just don't. At least not ones they'd have to spend a fortune on.

They want something that can be turned around quick while leveraging popular IP, and I think EA will probably double down on that after Anthems rocky launch. EA is more likely to sell microtransactions garbage in an online multiplayer title than a single player story based title.

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The reason EA won't greenlight KoTOR 3 is literally because Disney won't let them. Disney's strict rule on Star Wars since they bought it is that absolutely everything produced has to be strictly canon by their exact standards and they've cordoned off entire settings and periods of the timeline for their own future use including any potential Old Republic stuff. It's that simple.

 

[RPGam3r]

I don't know if I count ME:A and Anthem as a steady decline.

 

[Acorn]

I take issue with origins being incompatible with a console. I played it on console and it was one my favourite experiences in gaming. The a.i situational control settings are great and mean if you wanted to you can just set a few presets then play it as a real time game totally with no pausing.

They took away these options in the sequels meaning I had much less control of my party and had to pause more often to fix their boneheaded positioning or choices.

 

[wafflebrain]

Maybe, just maybe, the "core talent" are making the games they want to make and don't want to make the same games they made 20 years ago?

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I have a hard time believing they want to make gaas titles like Anthem if they were involved with developing titles in the older catalog. It's more likely it's about job security, pay grade, and comfortability, and there's nothing wrong with those being the reasons. As has been driven into the ground numerous times already, current Bioware is likely more a product of EA's general direction for publishing and chasing current trends. It's a bummer.

Also most of the core talent from those days is gone, even Laidlaw set sail for Ubisoft recently.

 

[Acorn]

The problem is that the majority of game buyers don't want what many on this board would call a "Bioware game". The videogame landscape has changed and gamer's interests have evolved. If Bioware made the perfect game for this board, it wouldn't sell the kinda numbers they and EA expect. So now they have to make what they think gamers now want... and they just aren't that good at it. Not really sure what the solution is when what your company used to be lauded for isn't really wanted anymore. They need to carve out their own path all over again and that's incredibly difficult.

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Many on this board see me2 as the pinnacle that is still an absolutely mainstream game. If it was released today with some qol stuff it would still sell well. I was one of those pissed by the more action focus but still loved it because they kept the writing up to par even if they reduced most other RPG systems.

Edit I'll still go to my grave hating the influence of the dialogue wheel in regards to ME but it was a well written mainstream series I enjoyed.

 

[Deleted member 17289]

Al caido, caerle.

Every time.

 

[LuxCommander]

The BioWare of old died the day The Doctors retired; at least that's how my peers that have worked there have put it. Not to say that the current studio isn't talented, because there are a ton of people working there that are amazing at what they do. It truly is a leadership problem at the top, and most of that criticism is rightly aimed at the EA top brass. If things do indeed go south as the community is fearing, it will be a shame, but is sadly not unexpected and been a long time coming due to mismanagement.

That all being said, this article is a good read, been slowly getting through it.

The reason EA won't greenlight KoTOR 3 is literally because Disney won't let them. Disney's strict rule on Star Wars since they bought it is that absolutely everything produced has to be strictly canon by their exact standards and they've cordoned off entire settings and periods of the timeline for their own future use including any potential Old Republic stuff. It's that simple.

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Also this. Lucasfilm has been far more hands on with extended universe content ever since the buyout since they no longer have the glorious crutch of G cannon to determine what stories should be able to override each other. The good news is that it means we're very likely to get something during that timeline in the future. The bad part is that we'll have to wait for it, and that's a real shame.

 

[Orbit]

All I know is Mass Effect series (not Andromeda, since its' a copy-paste of lots of ME lore even though it is supposed to be set in another galaxy) and Dragon Age series have some of the best lore in games (most interesting and diverse, at least). I will never forget how interesting it was/is to talk to characters, select the dialogue tree, and find out fascinating background info on races/cultures in the game. Now, if i'm not mistaken, the DA write is gone. yeah this isn't bioware anymore but hopefully they can become a new bioware in their own right.

 

[mael]

People asking for new KotOR are kinda like people asking for new Prince of Persia.
Bioware stopped making them because it was less profitable than whatever else Bioware is making.
Ubisoft stopped making PoP games because they really didn't like paying the royalty fees for an IP they didn't own, there's a reason they doubled down on Assassin's Creed while letting PoP whither on the vine.
The Star Wars license isn't why Bioware is disappointing people, if anything with how controlling Star Wars handlers has been for years (and I mean even before the Disney sale) it's kind of a wonder who would manage to make something good with it.