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Sosukae

Member
Oct 25, 2017
177
Denounce the behavior, and reassure the target of the harassment. Let's vow to have a gaming community where the problem element are the assholes and they're the ones who have to mute their mics, not women who simply wanted to have a good time after a long day.​

Agree with this so much
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
As someone that walked into a bar in the middle of Wales, was identified as an American, and asked what do I think of n word(s), Europe is not exempt from problems of racism.

The problem with games like Overwatch is what the OP identified, they pretend to be for these progressive ideals but they don't follow through. There is a huge amount of dissonance between the depictions of the characters and how they treat their player base. They need to fix this, and the OP is asking people to be pro-active instead of passive about it. Your anecdotal evidence is really neither here nor there, it doesn't contradict others experiences. If one person has a terrible experience and five people don't, the five people don't cancel out the one. Every person should be able to play a game with others without experiencing these issues.

I agree, I'm not trying to say its false or anything of that sort, just wondering how it can be so different from one server to another.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,113
I see what you mean and I agree, I haven't experienced myself tho. I have well over a thousand hours in ranked pc overwatch (and I'm a sad sad gold player) and I never had an instance of harassement that wasn't preceded by somebody thinking somebody else is bad at the game.

But that might be because indeed harassing your own teammates brings you closer to a defeat and I only play ranked.

Consider yourself lucky, then. Because I know first hand it has nothing to do with "being bad at the game"; people will take ANY reason to harass others.

Feminine name? "omg a grill" Yes, with that exact typo.
sexism4rhkci.png


Speak up in text chat? Get called sexist obscenities.

Speak up in voice chat? A matter of time before some guy jumps on the chance to harass you.
sexism26djtj.png


Don't speak up in voice chat? You're suddenly "a guy playing a girl" or worse.
transnvkez.png


Call someone out in chat? Prepared to get call the b-word.

Don't call someone out? You'll still get called that indirectly anyhow.
sexismxxjb2.png


It goes on-and-on....
sexism3bakiq.png



These are all different cases from 2016 to 2018, and they're just what I did manage to screenshot. I wasn't able to record the voice chat harassment.

Safe to say, it's bad. It can be almost a game to game occurrence. It's frequently unprovoked. And if you don't have multiple people standing with you to fight back, then it WILL get worse. :\
 
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MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,830
"Heal me you fucking n". A tank player once said that to me.

Left the game and reported immediately. The only thing I said to him: did you just call me a n over a videogame? Waste of oxygen.

EU servers. I'm not even black. Game is super toxic.
 
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Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,418
Handing the tools to self-police directly in the hands of the people who already engage in targeted harassment of minorities is only going to result in more people of color and women getting kicked off these games. The Overwatch community hasn't come close to earning that responsibility. We would do much better to, somehow, lobby to the OW developers directly to take this more seriously.

If we are talking old-school community server style tools it would also allow to build the kind of communities where that isn't tolerated though.

Matchmaking means it's unlikely you'll ever play with the same person again, which makes social consequeces of being an asshole super low.


Having been on the internet for 20 years now. If I compare community run social spaces and social spaces run by giant corporations, I'll take the former in a heartbeat (hence, why i still post on forums rather than twitter or facebook). Not that community run stuff can't be toxic. There's just usually a little bit more buy-in from the users than in spaces where they don't feel responsible for being part of a community.


I'm not saying Blizzard shouldn't do anything obviously. I'm just sceptical that the toxicity problem will ever be solved by the corporation, rather than the community.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,720
I'm not saying Blizzard shouldn't do anything obviously. I'm just sceptical that the toxicity problem will ever be solved by the corporation, rather than the community.
I don't believe that either. Realistically I don't think the community will be able to solve the problem because, deep down, I think the gaming community is ultimately unsalvageable on this front because I don't believe anyone is willing to really go in on alt-right shitlords like they deserve. "We just want to play games and all of that. It's just that with the way Overwatch is set up now, to give people the tools to ban others from the game could be easily abused and, if we're lobbing solutions from the corporate end like user-created tools anyway (the corporation still has to make these), you might as well understand that they aren't going to want to be actively involved either because it risks their apolitical reputation, and just insist on installing filters that automatically ban people for using certain language.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,718
LA
I think that overall the Overwatch competitive community is very toxic. Sane players have uninstalled the game or play with voice off. I have gotten toxic voice comms from both men and women. But Blizzard doesn't want to recognize the problem is that big, but it is really big. Almost every game one player is being toxic, it generally doesn't escalate when other players don't pay attention.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,969
Sadly, if I was a woman I would never use a mic and I wouldn't have a username that implies I'm a woman either. People are fucking nasty. Hell, I mute every game I join now. Shit wore me down over time and I'm a dude who doesn't get it as bad. Can't even imagine.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Darn online communities, gah, I couldn't stand listening to the beginning of that video. People are so messed up and horrible online. Before I tried online games I couldn't wait for it. Years and years after I stay clear of multiplayer anything unless it's a situation where there's no need for teaming up or communication with randoms. Needless to say I didn't play Overwatch long at all.
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
I don't believe that either. Realistically I don't think the community will be able to solve the problem because, deep down, I think the gaming community is ultimately unsalvageable on this front because I don't believe anyone is willing to really go in on alt-right shitlords like they deserve. "We just want to play games and all of that. It's just that with the way Overwatch is set up now, to give people the tools to ban others from the game could be easily abused and, if we're lobbing solutions from the corporate end like user-created tools anyway (the corporation still has to make these), you might as well understand that they aren't going to want to be actively involved either because it risks their apolitical reputation, and just insist on installing filters that automatically ban people for using certain language.

Ultimately I don't think you create an environment to actually work towards abolishing racism (and misogyny and etc.) without widespread economic and government reform that reshapes society to lay the ground work. Corporations probably figure letting these little shits run rampant is acceptable because they don't view the consumers they would get as a net gain over targeting and isolating/banning the trolls and racists. And because it's in the corporation's perceived best interest to protect the racists, nothing really changes in government and society.

Depressing answer, I know. I really can't offer good advice for visible minorities in playing online games. If I was one, I wouldn't even bother. In terms of "staying sane while playing video games," the only advice I can give is to try to form online communities and groups that won't tolerate that, but when you're just out in the wild playing randos? Yeah, I don't know. The most any of us can do when we see that shit is call it out and report it, I suppose. Those of us who aren't visible minorities should use our privilege to protect those at risk.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,720
Ultimately I don't think you create an environment to actually work towards abolishing racism (and misogyny and etc.) without widespread economic and government reform that reshapes society to lay the ground work.
We're not talking about trying to abolish centuries of social conditioning from society as a whole. We're talking about changing online gaming culture to be less tolerable, which is far more manageable. There are solutions to this problem, but the issue is simply the apathy and unwillingness of the larger playerbase as a whole to put in the work to correct it. And while private groups are good, I should have the right to just exist in a game when I'm playing at a time where my friends aren't on, same as any straight white dude. In general though, I'm not going to just up and stop playing Overwatch (playing right now lol), because I find the game and its progressive intentions to be worth the risk of running into an asshole who figures out I'm a woman. Also, if I had to follow this advice and just ignore the random elements in life that could cause an altercation on the basis of my gender or race I'd just never leave the house.
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
We're not talking about trying to abolish centuries of social conditioning from society as a whole. We're talking about changing online gaming culture to be less tolerable, which is far more manageable. There are solutions to this problem, but the issue is simply the apathy and unwillingness of the larger playerbase as a whole to put in the work to correct it. And while private groups are good, I should have the right to just exist in a game when I'm playing at a time where my friends aren't on, same as any straight white dude. In general though, I'm not going to just up and stop playing Overwatch (playing right now lol), because I find the game and its progressive intentions to be worth the risk of running into an asshole who figures out I'm a woman. Also, if I had to follow this advice and just ignore the random elements in life that could cause an altercation on the basis of my gender or race I'd just never leave the house.

I mean, yeah, of course. But it's like you said, I don't think we can rely on the corporations to provide the tools for us to do that. That's why as I said, we should speak out against it as much as possible and make it less socially acceptable in these spaces. Other than that, though, I come back to what you said earlier...

Realistically I don't think the community will be able to solve the problem because, deep down, I think the gaming community is ultimately unsalvageable on this front because I don't believe anyone is willing to really go in on alt-right shitlords like they deserve.

The gaming community does feel unsalvageable and it's hard to not feel like it's nothing but despair. The only way I can really think to fix this is to make strides to make the gaming community a place of acceptance and tolerance, and I don't know how you really do that in the long term. I'm not really familiar with Overwatch's moderating system, is there a way it can be changed to be more community based than corporate based?
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
I had an instance where I heard pretty much this same thing. I spoke up against with what the other guy was saying about our Mercy player (female). Kid you not, soon as I said to stop, all the others spoke up and just shit all over me. It's stupid. I hate it. I stopped playing Overwatch because of this. Thankfully I haven't heard any of this with my CoD games. But I dunno. I'd like to go back to playing. I'll speak up every time I hear it in my games and I don't care what the others are saying. It's just good to be a voice for someone because they may get too embarrassed to respond after the fact.

Edit: Just as I get to the end of the video, he talks of speaking up. Everyone needs to.
It sucks I hate it so much because a pretty fun game gets ruined because I can't talk to anyone to help, because I get shamed for my gender literally till. I basically get off crying. I basically have enough energy to play the game once a week if anything and I pray it just goes well, but most times will not. And yeah anyone who tried to defend me has been trashed to hell and back for it.
 

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
I don't think that's what they're saying at all. Only that it's a disservice to imply (intentionally or not) misogyny is endemic to only one end. It obscures how ubiquitous the problem actually is.
I never implied that. I said that misogyny is not surprising or mind boggling in 2020 given that far right movements that should've been dead and long forgotten are coming back. Misogyny is not ancient. It's the present.
 

Garcia el Gringo

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,661
NJ
Touching on what Sarkeesian wrote recently, it makes me wonder what the lobbies of these games would look like if large, influential swaths of the industry unequivocally denounced Gamergate; not that bigotry by players in-game was a new thing in 2014, but it was definitely a crossroads and the corporate/industry silence aired its centrism in regards to misogyny, emboldening the primordial alt-right and them trickling out a next-generation lexicon and organized focus of bigotry to the impressionable gaming mainstream. I wish studios stamped empathy into the miliue of the games from the base, making the art/product a bigot wouldn't want to touch. The enforcement of the code of conduct is often timid, if not aggressively centrist.

Likely not much would be different with edgelords shouting slurs if Bobby Kotick gave some lip service about combating misogyny in the middle of the decade, but who knows.

I do my best to report in-game and on platforms when I experience/witness bigotry (again, putting it in the industry's hands), but I can't say I pay attention to communities outside of Era to get a feel for if change is possible among the capital G gamers themselves through a grassroots #SpeakUp movement. I hope it's possible to change the mainstream gaming miliue.
 
OP
OP
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,720
The gaming community does feel unsalvageable and it's hard to not feel like it's nothing but despair. The only way I can really think to fix this is to make strides to make the gaming community a place of acceptance and tolerance, and I don't know how you really do that in the long term. I'm not really familiar with Overwatch's moderating system, is there a way it can be changed to be more community based than corporate based?
Overwatch's moderation system lacks specification and transparency. You can report players for specific incidences by clicking on their username > Report > choosing a generic subject line like "Abusive Chat" or "Gameplay Sabotage, and then writing out the incident. This gets sent off into the void. Provided the report is detailed enough or enough people report the person, the next time you log on you will receive a thank you screen saying the person has been punished. You do not know if they were punished based specifically on your unique report or what the punishment entails.

Overwatch already has an optional word filter in place for profanity. On top of that, it has two built-in recording systems: one to capture 20 second Highlights in the vain of Plays of the Game, and finally a Replay system that records the last 9 matches you played in their entirety, along with all of the OWL camera controls at your disposal. Knowing this, I see no reason why it would be impossible for Blizzard to implement a more robust reporting system that allows you to just send them direct video and audio evidence of bullshit.

What annoys me most though is that when sending such evidence directly to community managers and social media accounts, you're not allowed to call out the Battle Tags of people involved. I understand it's in place for harassment, but fuck me if I've got a screenshot of Douchebag#11223 being a tit in the text chat, like...do something about it?????
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
Overwatch already has an optional word filter in place for profanity. On top of that, it has two built-in recording systems: one to capture 20 second Highlights in the vain of Plays of the Game, and finally a Replay system that records the last 9 matches you played in their entirety, along with all of the OWL camera controls at your disposal. Knowing this, I see no reason why it would be impossible for Blizzard to implement a more robust reporting system that allows you to just send them direct video and audio evidence of bullshit.

Being able to capture video/audio evidence would definitely help a lot.

What annoys me most though is that when sending such evidence directly to community managers and social media accounts, you're not allowed to call out the Battle Tags of people involved. I understand it's in place for harassment, but fuck me if I've got a screenshot of Douchebag#11223 being a tit in the text chat, like...do something about it?????

Yeah, unfortunately I think the community managers are in a position to not want to rock the boat, so they let that shit slide. :/ Which is ironic, like, their job is to manage the community, but I guess if Blizzard wants to be "apolitical" while hosting a game trying to be progressive... I dunno. Part of me feels like the only way that could happen if Blizzard goes "shit, we are bleeding users fast," but I wouldn't want to tell someone to stop playing a game they love out of protest, that feels like letting the trolls win.

Anyway, I gotta go catch a movie, but this has been insightful as someone who doesn't play Overwatch. I hope more players speak up against it and make it a problem the community has to address head-on. It has to start with the players, I truly believe.
 

Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
That was an incredibly hard video to watch, but very powerful. Thanks for posting it.

I knew things were bad, but honestly had no idea just how horrible it's become. I stopped playing these kind of games long before built-in voice chat and streaming was a thing because I hated how people were treated. But the examples shared in the video were a complete eye-opener. As in, what in the actual fuck is going on here and why are people even laughing.

While it's unlikely that I'll ever play Overwatch or a game like it, it has made me more aware and more committed than ever to speaking up whenever I can.
 

Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
While that is undeniably true, toxic masculinity forms the entire core of fascism's idelology. In the far right sexism is a feature, not a bug.
I think that maybe the american far right has more of that aspect: in Italy and France the leaders of the biggest far right parties are both women (and in Italy she's even pro-choice, IDK about Marine LePen).
 

mrprime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
121
UK
The call to action in this video is to stand up to these people, but I'm really not sure that will help. In my experience, a lot of these abusers are certified edge lords, they will find something about someone on their team in any game and let rip their hateful diatribe. They're baiting reactions, no well reasoned counter-argument is going to land, they're horrible trolls.

Imo games need to be much more proactive with moderation for text/voice, if you could report a player, mute and ignore them and a few days later they get a suspension or ban, then perhaps they'd cut it out, but without the threat of any tangible punishment for them I don't think there's much 'we' in the broader community can do to self police.
 

GTAce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,169
Bonn, Germany
"Heal me you fucking n*****". A tank player once said that to me.

Left the game and reported immediately. The only thing I said to him: did you just call me a n***** over a videogame? Waste of oxygen.

EU servers. I'm not even black. Game is super toxic.
DUDE, don't write the n-word out, seriously, not even as a quote and especially not when you're white.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,830
DUDE, don't write the n-word out, seriously, not even as a quote and especially not when you're white.

I never use racist insults whatsoever online or in real life. That was just re-telling what happened in game via voice chat.

And I'm not white. I edited it out in any case.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Touching on what Sarkeesian wrote recently, it makes me wonder what the lobbies of these games would look like if large, influential swaths of the industry unequivocally denounced Gamergate; not that bigotry by players in-game was a new thing in 2014, but it was definitely a crossroads and the corporate/industry silence aired its centrism in regards to misogyny, emboldening the primordial alt-right and them trickling out a next-generation lexicon and organized focus of bigotry to the impressionable gaming mainstream. I wish studios stamped empathy into the miliue of the games from the base, making the art/product a bigot wouldn't want to touch. The enforcement of the code of conduct is often timid, if not aggressively centrist.

I sometimes wonder about this and I think I agree. I believe the gaming landscape is worse today thanks to the majority of devs, publishers, some press.... didn't fight back Gamergate, but instead tip toed about it.
 

Daxa

Member
Jan 10, 2018
622
The thing that really made Overwatch suck too was that it was one of the biggest games on Twitch for a long time, so a lot of the people in games were people with expensive microphones trying to make it big by being toxic assholes. So all the incentive structures were aligned towards toxicity. And then you see people like xQc make it big in OWL and on Twitch, of course.

Tim The Tatman was pretty awful and transphobic with asking people their genders and stuff in games, and he is one of the biggest streamers on Twitch right now. Moonmoon was kind of a creep towards some female teammates every now and then, but not as a regular thing afaict. I wouldn't say that's why he made it big.

A lot of YouTuber who straight up dedicated their entire YouTube channel to harassing people for lulz. And now they do family-friendly Fortnite and shit, ugh.

A lot of assholes minted an influencer career off Blizzard being terrible at moderating their platform, even as the video evidence was right there.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I think that maybe the american far right has more of that aspect: in Italy and France the leaders of the biggest far right parties are both women (and in Italy she's even pro-choice, IDK about Marine LePen).

In Spain the far right party, Vox, is downright medieval in its attitudes towards women (which is in line with their attitudes towards everything). They are actively working to repeal laws that protect women from domestic abuse, are radically anti-choice and anti LGBT, and endorse the role of the woman as homekeepers subservient to their husbands.

Vox is considered antifeminist,[56] and wants to repeal the gender violence law,[57] which they see as "discriminant against one of the sexes" and replace it with a "family violence law that will afford the same protection to the elderly, men, women and children who suffer from abuse".[58]

(URL is misleading, the whole title is "stop [anti] domestic violence efforts").

It is a grievous mistake to assume women can't be sexist; a mistake these very parties often exploit to launder their public images. Incidentally, Vox not only uses this tactic too, but also hire POC spokespeople while espousing downright barbaric anti-immigration ideologies.

Touching on what Sarkeesian wrote recently, it makes me wonder what the lobbies of these games would look like if large, influential swaths of the industry unequivocally denounced Gamergate; not that bigotry by players in-game was a new thing in 2014, but it was definitely a crossroads and the corporate/industry silence aired its centrism in regards to misogyny, emboldening the primordial alt-right and them trickling out a next-generation lexicon and organized focus of bigotry to the impressionable gaming mainstream. I wish studios stamped empathy into the miliue of the games from the base, making the art/product a bigot wouldn't want to touch. The enforcement of the code of conduct is often timid, if not aggressively centrist.



Likely not much would be different with edgelords shouting slurs if Bobby Kotick gave some lip service about combating misogyny in the middle of the decade, but who knows.



I do my best to report in-game and on platforms when I experience/witness bigotry (again, putting it in the industry's hands), but I can't say I pay attention to communities outside of Era to get a feel for if change is possible among the capital G gamers themselves through a grassroots #SpeakUp movement. I hope it's possible to change the mainstream gaming miliue.

If there's something Blizzard's HK debacle has reminded us (as if there was any need!), it's that corporations by and large do not give a shit about what's right if it gets in the way of what's profitable. The big players in the industry knew that they had more to win by remaining silent, and developers had to fall in line to keep their jobs, unless they were entirely independent like Tim Schaffer.
 
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BlkSquirtle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
948
I play PC Overwatch occasionally, only QP and Arcade with no mic and I've never heard anything like the first 20 seconds of the video before what the fuck is wrong with these people. I generally don't even join mics anymore because my girlfriend is usually home and I don't want to interrupt her by my shot calling or having to talk down to a bigot.

I guard text chat like a dog though, I'll stop playing to combat text toxicity every time I see it. I've had people send me thank you messages for speaking up because they said nobody else has ever spoken up for them. I report every time I see it and will text in general game chat to let everybody know what was said that game so that people can report as well.

I'm biased as shit because I'm black and I've grown up during the dark days when saying anything back would guarantee the entire team suddenly getting voices to shout you down on how you actually are a nword and you need to stfu. So now, women and other minorities will always have my sword when it comes to online games.

Just one person standing up can make all the difference for a person, because silence is complicit. I'm glad SVB made a video like this, I dont watch his videos a bunch but he gets a sub for being willing to speak out when he knows he's going to get flamed by youtube bigots for this.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,619
It's mind-boggling that we're still dealing with this shit in 2020.
Is it though? Sexism is deeply ingrained in our societies. The way boys are taught to be men and the lack of respect taught to boys about women directly affects how women are viewed in society and also extrapolates itself out to being deeply homophobic and transphobic.

Any fan base that is still largely male dominated is going to be a flash point of that distilled hatred. Gaming is getting *slightly* better due to more women speaking up and more people being held accountable. There is still a lot of work to be done and honestly there isnt ever going to be a finish-line in this fight.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,157
Washington
You need to know the person you are addressing for it to be hate speech. Like Sophie's case being a woman. When you call somebody a nigger but you don't know it's skin color you just being toxic.

I know you are banned but if you are still reading this, you are still wrong here. When you call some one a slur based on being part of a group you also are hurting everyone else who happens to be in that group. It's like when people use gay as an insult, you are implying everyone of that group is something not desirable so you manage to put down that whole group and reinforce that they are a "lower" group.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Consider yourself lucky, then. Because I know first hand it has nothing to do with "being bad at the game"; people will take ANY reason to harass others.

Feminine name? "omg a grill" Yes, with that exact typo.
sexism4rhkci.png


Speak up in text chat? Get called sexist obscenities.

Speak up in voice chat? A matter of time before some guy jumps on the chance to harass you.
sexism26djtj.png


Don't speak up in voice chat? You're suddenly "a guy playing a girl" or worse.
transnvkez.png


Call someone out in chat? Prepared to get call the b-word.

Don't call someone out? You'll still get called that indirectly anyhow.
sexismxxjb2.png


It goes on-and-on....
sexism3bakiq.png



These are all different cases from 2016 to 2018, and they're just what I did manage to screenshot. I wasn't able to record the voice chat harassment.

Safe to say, it's bad. It can be almost a game to game occurrence. It's frequently unprovoked. And if you don't have multiple people standing with you to fight back, then it WILL get worse. :\
I haven't played Overwatch in years and was never hardcore into it...but I still distinctly remember some distinct occasions when people were able to correctly identify that I was black via mic comms.

There were long matches. Yes, very long matches. And one of the driving factors in my reduced play.

*hugs*

There are some particularly vile communities festering inside Battle.net games. Overwatch and Destiny before it moved were objectively the most toxic gaming communities I've experienced. And the crazy thing about Destiny is that since it moved to Steam, the amount of racism/sexism and general toxicity encountered has decreased 100 fold.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,770
If there's something Blizzard's HK debacle has reminded us (as if there was any need!), it's that corporations by and large do not give a shit about what's right if it gets in the way of what's profitable. The big players in the industry knew that they had more to win by remaining silent, and developers had to fall in line to keep their jobs, unless they were entirely independent like Tim Schaffer.

Hey, it's not just big companies, even many progressive voices didn't do enough during GG. Patrick Klepeck has specifically mentioned his own disappointment that he and others around him at Giant Bomb didn't do more at the time.

"Part of the reason KotakuInAction and places like it flourished was game media's centrism problem, a desire to "see both sides," which granted undue legitimacy to GamerGate's wildly successful gaslighting campaign. I was there, and just about all of us could have done better.

It's not that any one person or publication could have snuffed GamerGate out—the genie was out of the bottle. They refused to speak plainly because they were so damn worried about looking "biased." By the time most outlets got around to issuing "statements," too many of which were about updating their ethics policies instead of asking reporters to investigate what was happening beneath the surface, it hardly mattered. It was too late, with the conspiratorial-minded GamerGate crowd able to handwave them away as the result of pressure from social justice warriors inside the publication. (I was, of course, one of them.)"


The thing that GG taught us is that hate thrives when there is no opposition. It's not enough to merely not support these hateful views. You have to actively oppose them. All of us, whenever we can, if we are able to.

It's not an complete answer but the worst thing you can do is let the harassers draw the boundaries of the play zone before you've even gotten off the bus.
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,726
Despite not being a woman, I am still happy that to this day, I don't play games online. What games I do play, people rarely speak.
 
Consider yourself lucky, then. Because I know first hand it has nothing to do with "being bad at the game"; people will take ANY reason to harass others.

Feminine name? "omg a grill" Yes, with that exact typo.
sexism4rhkci.png


Speak up in text chat? Get called sexist obscenities.

Speak up in voice chat? A matter of time before some guy jumps on the chance to harass you.
sexism26djtj.png


Don't speak up in voice chat? You're suddenly "a guy playing a girl" or worse.
transnvkez.png


Call someone out in chat? Prepared to get call the b-word.

Don't call someone out? You'll still get called that indirectly anyhow.
sexismxxjb2.png


It goes on-and-on....
sexism3bakiq.png



These are all different cases from 2016 to 2018, and they're just what I did manage to screenshot. I wasn't able to record the voice chat harassment.

Safe to say, it's bad. It can be almost a game to game occurrence. It's frequently unprovoked. And if you don't have multiple people standing with you to fight back, then it WILL get worse. :\
And that's the reason my sister has a male profile name and doesn't ever use public voice chat.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Hey, it's not just big companies, even many progressive voices didn't do enough during GG. Patrick Klepeck has specifically mentioned his own disappointment that he and others around him at Giant Bomb didn't do more at the time.

"Part of the reason KotakuInAction and places like it flourished was game media's centrism problem, a desire to "see both sides," which granted undue legitimacy to GamerGate's wildly successful gaslighting campaign. I was there, and just about all of us could have done better.

It's not that any one person or publication could have snuffed GamerGate out—the genie was out of the bottle. They refused to speak plainly because they were so damn worried about looking "biased." By the time most outlets got around to issuing "statements," too many of which were about updating their ethics policies instead of asking reporters to investigate what was happening beneath the surface, it hardly mattered. It was too late, with the conspiratorial-minded GamerGate crowd able to handwave them away as the result of pressure from social justice warriors inside the publication. (I was, of course, one of them.)"


The thing that GG taught us is that hate thrives when there is no opposition. It's not enough to merely not support these hateful views. You have to actively oppose them. All of us, whenever we can, if we are able to.

It's not an complete answer but the worst thing you can do is let the harassers draw the boundaries of the play zone before you've even gotten off the bus.

I fully agree with everything above. The only thing I would add is that the press may have very little power against GG even if they organized to oppose it, because one of the primary talking points of GG was that the gaming press was corrupt, so it would be seen as confirmation of their biases. It's, not coincidentally, the same logic used in actual witch trials:

Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, a priest who heard the confessions of condemned witches, wrote in 1631 the Cautio Criminalis ("prudence in criminal cases"), in which he bitingly described the decision tree for condemning accused witches: If the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away.
 

SanTheSly

The San Symphony Project
Member
Sep 2, 2019
6,527
United Kingdom
SVB is good people and he's done really well to not ignore such a huge problem both in the OW scene and in gaming in general. Glad he tackled this and didn't shy away from it.
 

Garcia el Gringo

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,661
NJ
If there's something Blizzard's HK debacle has reminded us (as if there was any need!), it's that corporations by and large do not give a shit about what's right if it gets in the way of what's profitable. The big players in the industry knew that they had more to win by remaining silent, and developers had to fall in line to keep their jobs, unless they were entirely independent like Tim Schaffer.
You're speaking the truth.

It was unlikely the mainstream industry was going to react any differently in 2014, and the next-generation gamer culture of bigotry has only snowballed since, making it even riskier for the corporations to address the problem audience directly.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,770
I fully agree with everything above. The only thing I would add is that the press may have very little power against GG even if they organized to oppose it, because one of the primary talking points of GG was that the gaming press was corrupt, so it would be seen as confirmation of their biases. It's, not coincidentally, the same logic used in actual witch trials:

Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, a priest who heard the confessions of condemned witches, wrote in 1631 the Cautio Criminalis ("prudence in criminal cases"), in which he bitingly described the decision tree for condemning accused witches: If the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away.

That's an excellent quote!

I don't totally think it would all be for naught though. The problem with most sites either ignoring the issue or making a single wet tissue response is that it left a lot of gullible people with no direction. So who stepped in to encourage them into the "ethics in game journalism" cause? The numerous GG alt accounts.

While I agree, for the already initiated, nothing the games press could say would be good enough for them, the ringing silence also allowed many to imprint their own explanations onto major sites' actions. When GG is blowing up across all games media sites.comments sections/ forums and Giant Bomb (for example) spend two hours a week actively refusing to talk about it, it sends a message, even if you are trying to avoid it.

Especially when a standard defence was and is "I just want to have fun playing games". If my favourite fun personalities also don't think it is worth talking about, maybe the gamers are under attack?

In the witch example, the unfortunate women were screwed wither way because those in power were basically out to get them and rigged the game from the start.

For GG, the GG side were changing the rules of the game and the establishment basically didn't react. The game wasn't rigged but one side (the alt-right channers) correctly predicted that a potential of abuse and deference to "gamers" would protect any bullshit crusade.

Silence meant that basically only side played.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
This kind of thing needs to be met with complete platform bans for offenders. Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and PC storefronts should permanently bar their accounts from online gaming, and then it would start to make a difference. It would be extra effective if it tied in to Twitch/Mixer/YouTube as well. Be a toxic piece of garbage, lose all privileges. In a perfect world, this would be absolute in all online situations, ban them from Facebook/Email/Instagram/Apple/Google/cell phone plan, pure banishment.

The worst of them probably deserve prison or worse.
 

Deleted member 46489

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
1,979
Safe to say, I know all about sexism in Overwatch. Here's a small sample of the verbal harassment I've gotten. These are all in non-competitive modes.

overwatchsexismnonameayj0g.png


Special mention to the one in the lower right corner - My boyfriend was playing with me when that happened.
This is disgusting. I don't really play online games, but it boggles my mind that you receive all this crap literally just by having a female account name.

Maybe I'm ignorant about this, but it feels like a pretty solvable problem. Make a list of ban words (n-word, grill, cum etc.), which if part of a message, will result in the message not being posted at all. And before people argue about the other meaning of 'grill', I don't believe there's any pressing need to be able to discuss barbecue in game chat. For some specific ban words (like highly sexist or racist terms), enforce long term bans for people who attempt to use them. As for voice chat, perhaps Overwatch can develop an Apex Legends-like communication system that allows for team play without requiring voice chat.

And these are just off the top of my head. I understand that developing these systems isn't easy, but a committed and motivated dev team could surely do it.

Regardless, it's a shit situation. People should be free to communicate with each other in online games any way they wish to (including voice chat) without having to suffer through a barrage of bigoted crap. Reminds me of that female pro Dva player (was it Geguri?) who was accused of aimbotting just because she completely wasted the male players on the enemy team. She literally had to "prove" it to the world that she was legit by live-streaming her performance. And we wonder why there aren't any women in esports.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
That's an excellent quote!

I don't totally think it would all be for naught though. The problem with most sites either ignoring the issue or making a single wet tissue response is that it left a lot of gullible people with no direction. So who stepped in to encourage them into the "ethics in game journalism" cause? The numerous GG alt accounts.

While I agree, for the already initiated, nothing the games press could say would be good enough for them, the ringing silence also allowed many to imprint their own explanations onto major sites' actions. When GG is blowing up across all games media sites.comments sections/ forums and Giant Bomb (for example) spend two hours a week actively refusing to talk about it, it sends a message, even if you are trying to avoid it.

Especially when a standard defence was and is "I just want to have fun playing games". If my favourite fun personalities also don't think it is worth talking about, maybe the gamers are under attack?

In the witch example, the unfortunate women were screwed wither way because those in power were basically out to get them and rigged the game from the start.

For GG, the GG side were changing the rules of the game and the establishment basically didn't react. The game wasn't rigged but one side (the alt-right channers) correctly predicted that a potential of abuse and deference to "gamers" would protect any bullshit crusade.

Silence meant that basically only side played.

I'm not sure this is as clear cut; it's a double-edged sword. Addressing GG, even to condemn it, means that you're advertising it and exposing your audience to it, whether you want it or not. Again, using Vox the Spanish fascist party as an example, it was precisely media talking about them and repeating whatever they said (to condemn it, sure, but repeating it nonetheless) that has made them widely known, and has lead to a huge increase in the amount of votes they've obtained these past elections, compared to previous ones. Sadly, talking about something repeatedly, even if your intention is to condemn it, turns it into a household name, desensitizes people to it, and moves the Overton window in their direction. It's just how the human psyche works.

The theoretically optimal approach would have been to energically condemn GG and move on, but even that might have had a minimal effect on GG's popularity. There are no silver bullets when it comes to combating bigotry and fascism; if there were, fascism wouldn't be where it is now.
 

b3llydrum

Member
Feb 21, 2018
4,147
I see what you mean and I agree, I haven't experienced myself tho. I have well over a thousand hours in ranked pc overwatch (and I'm a sad sad gold player) and I never had an instance of harassement that wasn't preceded by somebody thinking somebody else is bad at the game.

But that might be because indeed harassing your own teammates brings you closer to a defeat and I only play ranked.

Your comments reek of 4chan concern troll. Glad you got banned.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
I'm not sure this is as clear cut; it's a double-edged sword. Addressing GG, even to condemn it, means that you're advertising it and exposing your audience to it, whether you want it or not. Again, using Vox the Spanish fascist party as an example, it was precisely media talking about them and repeating whatever they said (to condemn it, sure, but repeating it nonetheless) that has made them widely known, and has lead to a huge increase in the amount of votes they've obtained these past elections, compared to previous ones. Sadly, talking about something repeatedly, even if your intention is to condemn it, turns it into a household name, desensitizes people to it, and moves the Overton window in their direction. It's just how the human psyche works.

The theoretically optimal approach would have been to energically condemn GG and move on, but even that might have had a minimal effect on GG's popularity. There are no silver bullets when it comes to combating bigotry and fascism; if there were, fascism wouldn't be where it is now.

Fascism in general is also a reaction to thinks like worker's rights, labour unions, human rights etc, ready to succumb to any foreign powers demands in case of weaker countries. All those parties were funded by rich entrepreneurs with agendas, though those same enterpreuners often tried to come to terms with any ruling government, since they could not be ignored due to their financial power.
World of video games in all fields is devoid of labour unions or any political initiative in general. I see GG also as a result of this condition. Video games is a newly accepted medium closely tied to industry and its members as a result have not reached the level of organization and liberalization of other more established artistic forms (eg theater and film actors, directors, writers, individual artists etc) that are much more active in such issues.
 

Young Liar

Member
Nov 30, 2017
3,421
Back when I was still actively playing Overwatch, before Blizzard decided to show its whole ass to the world with Blitzchung, I always looked forward to watching SVB's videos and genuinely learned a lot from them to improve my game. Good to know he's also the kind of person who recognizes this problem and actually uses his platform to speak out on it.