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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676


This is quite the way to start the New Year. Fledgling Overwatch YouTuber SVB is normally known for tutorials and mechanics videos, but out of nowhere decided to drop a video concerning sexism in Overwatch and gaming as a whole. To anyone who is remotely aware of the issue these are not new developments, although you might be interested in the statistics he brings out to entertain the arguments of those who are either ignorant or malicious. Further points go his ability to connect the dots and make a basic intersectional argument, that the act of creating safer spaces for women will de facto create spaces that are safer for men who do not conform to traditionally masculine stereotypes, such as less competitive or more soft-spoken individuals, and LGBT men, who face harassment from a similar well of misogyny.

But the main reason I wanted to highlight this video and why I think it's important is that, by naturally consulting women on the issue, has come to the conclusion that the first and most basic step anyone can do to begin fostering a better community is to simply speak up. I have been a target of both racist and sexist bullshit, as well as intervened on similar occasions where it was another team mate in the hot set. Subsequently I have shouted this to the official Overwatch community proper until I was blue in the face: muting, blocking, and reporting- going through rote channels of contact- does nothing to stem the tide of an issue that is culturally systemic and thus tacitly approved of by the community and even the company at large. Instead, the solution must come from the community itself, and part of a community's toolkit is ostracization. Calling out these players and simultaneously allowing the victims to let them know you're on their side is vital in actually cleaning house and changing the perception that gaming is a space that is only for straight white men.

It is particularly ironic and thus more necessary in games like Overwatch and games like Apex Legends that have followed in the footsteps of its culturally diverse hero format, where the point is that the mix of backgrounds and hero kits is inherently inclusive to a player base of different people. These should be the last games these people are playing, and yet the majority of the reason they are here is because they receive direct or implicit approval of their behavior from the community at large, and it's ridiculous.

So, if you needed a New Year's resolution, here is one to try: If you play online video games with voice chat, and you happen to be put on a team with a sexist asshole, speak up. Denounce the behavior, and reassure the target of the harassment. Let's vow to have a gaming community where the problem element are the assholes and they're the ones who have to mute their mics, not women who simply wanted to have a good time after a long day.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,737
That's a good New Year's resolution. Unfortunately, I've defaulted to just muting all voice chats in every game I play.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
These issues aren't inherently solved by the passiveness of time. They're solved by communities taking active resistance against the things that they perceive as morally bankrupt or damaging. You see this time and time again throughout history. As such, when you realize that gaming is simultaneously unwelcoming to minorities and ironically strives itself on being apolitical and "just about the games" so as to avoid "controversy," you understand that this is the result of passivity from all major channels of power who are aware that there are major issues. Again, the thing to do right now, as an individual, would be to take active stances in voice chat when someone is receiving abuse so as to begin changing the implicit rules of social conduct in gaming.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
With the rise of the far right, the resurrection of Nazis and fascism? It's not mind boggling at all. The world is rotten and the system is decaying.
The world is better than ever by many metrics. (Look up the "Optimism Gap".)

Hopefully the vitriol and bile we see so much is due to greater exposure, not great numbers. I.e. it was always worse than this - but now we see it 10x more than before.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,598
Overwatch is the game I tend to end up playing the most nowadays because of a busy lifestyle, and it's equal parts I don't want to spend even more time on it and the toxicity "in general" that I don't really bother with comp.

I have played PC stuff all my life but only really came to the game in early 2018, I seem to like it and it likes me, but I am constantly surprised at the vitriol as if it's a new thing.

There needs to be a distinction between Overwatch toxicity and "in general" toxicity and glad that this video makes it clear this games community needs some light shone on it.

Will other games get YouTube videos like this? Which ones?
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
Overwatch is the game I tend to end up playing the most nowadays because of a busy lifestyle, and it's equal parts I don't want to spend even more time on it and the toxicity "in general" that I don't really bother with comp.

I have played PC stuff all my life but only really came to the game in early 2018, I seem to like it and it likes me, but I am constantly surprised at the vitriol as if it's a new thing.

There needs to be a distinction between Overwatch toxicity and "in general" toxicity and glad that this video makes it clear this games community needs some light shone on it.

Will other games get YouTube videos like this? Which ones?
Funnily enough I find Overwatch toxicity less recurring than general toxicity. You cannot pay me to go into the chat for Call of Duty, while I shotcall in Overwatch with my guard up. Granted, I faced toxicity in my last games; apparently it rises as you climb? I don't know what the fuck is up with this community sometimes.

And I don't think SVB will do any similar videos for other games. He is primarily if not strictly an Overwatch player. It would be nice though if all of these YouTubers would collaborate on these kinds of initiatives though, but it might be easier for Overwatch because of its wide demographic appeal.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
There needs to be reprecussions for anyone acting like a psycho or sexist online. That's the only way to stop this behavior.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
when I used to bother with voice chat in the game I was surprised at how often I would hear women and how often the matches would be completely normal. I honestly thought the overwatch community must have been pretty good about not being weird or mean around women
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
Geez just in the first 20 seconds. What a fucked up thing to say.
At this point overwatch needs a voice filter like what madden did for people swearing infront of their tvs.

Because I can't say how many people I've reported for telling me I was gonna get raped, murdered, or they would find me and kidnap me, or would die infront of my pc like that video, and you know what literally not a single fucking one was banned. I've shared videos to Blizzard Support with literally not a fucking single action taken.

It's beyond fucked up. Sure this is an issue with games nowadays, but blizzard takes the fucking cake for literally doing nothing about it. Valve does stuff about it. Ubisoft does it for Siege, Microsoft does it for Xbox live as a whole, how is it so hard for Blizzard to do something about this.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
Easiest thing I think Blizzard could do is to ban based on non-optional word filters, or to ban automatically based on a high threshold of reports specifically for abusive chat. They can detect cheaters and institute ban waves in the thousands but it's like pulling teeth to get some of these people off the game.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
But until there are repercussions for the companies choosing not to moderate their platforms, that won't happen.
That's true. imo all platforms need to held responsible for policing their user base. That goes for all things , not just individual video games, but things like Twitter or Twitch too. The safety of being on the other side of the internet let's assholes be assholes and them getting away with it just reinforces their practices. For example I see a lot of toxic behavior awarded via Twitch streamers and the laughs from their chats, the money thrown at them for being horrible people and it's fucking disgusting. That needs to change, and like you said it's the companies that need to make those changes.
 

LowParry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,734
At this point overwatch needs a voice filter like what madden did for people swearing infront of their tvs.

Because I can't say how many people I've reported for telling me I was gonna get raped, murdered, or they would find me and kidnap me, or would die infront of my pc like that video, and you know what literally not a single fucking one was banned. I've shared videos to Blizzard Support with literally not a fucking single action taken.

It's beyond fucked up. Sure this is an issue with games nowadays, but blizzard takes the fucking cake for literally doing nothing about it. Valve does stuff about it. Ubisoft does it for Siege, Microsoft does it for Xbox live as a whole, how is it so hard for Blizzard to do something about this.

I had an instance where I heard pretty much this same thing. I spoke up against with what the other guy was saying about our Mercy player (female). Kid you not, soon as I said to stop, all the others spoke up and just shit all over me. It's stupid. I hate it. I stopped playing Overwatch because of this. Thankfully I haven't heard any of this with my CoD games. But I dunno. I'd like to go back to playing. I'll speak up every time I hear it in my games and I don't care what the others are saying. It's just good to be a voice for someone because they may get too embarrassed to respond after the fact.

Edit: Just as I get to the end of the video, he talks of speaking up. Everyone needs to.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Gonna watch it after a work out. Tried to watch the first few seconds. Not constructive but now I want to punch whoever said that shit in the video
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I had an instance where I heard pretty much this same thing. I spoke up against with what the other guy was saying about our Mercy player (female). Kid you not, soon as I said to stop, all the others spoke up and just shit all over me. It's stupid. I hate it. I stopped playing Overwatch because of this. Thankfully I haven't heard any of this with my CoD games. But I dunno. I'd like to go back to playing. I'll speak up every time I hear it in my games and I don't care what the others are saying. It's just good to be a voice for someone because they may get too embarrassed to respond after the fact.

Edit: Just as I get to the end of the video, he talks of speaking up. Everyone needs to.

I've personally spoken up to anyone acting like a piece of shit in many online games I play. I've always been that way. However it's not enough. There seriously needs to something done to these people. Ban em. Fine them. Whatever it'll take to make a difference in the world. They won't ever change just by listening to someone online because we have no authority over them.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
It's a good watch, thanks for posting this. It's embarrassing how women are treated in online games. Devs need to ban for this kind of abuse. It should be a no-brainer. There are a lot of women who don't play these games because they feel unwelcome and, while I don't count on Blizzard or others to do the right thing simply because it's right, they are leaving money on the table.
 

NoKisum

Member
Nov 11, 2017
4,913
DMV Area, USA
Easiest thing I think Blizzard could do is to ban based on non-optional word filters, or to ban automatically based on a high threshold of reports specifically for abusive chat. They can detect cheaters and institute ban waves in the thousands but it's like pulling teeth to get some of these people off the game.
I've pitched this kind of verbal filter tech to Era and many other communities plenty of times for this very type of situation. And I've gotten a unanimous "Fuck off" for it. More people are passionate about being able to throw insults than they are for trying to stop harassment. Muting is the future.
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
Speaking up does nothing against the shit talker, although I'd agree it can help the target of the harassment.

This doesn't happen only in overwatch and it's not aimed at minorities, people will say whatever, and I mean literally whatever, they think it might be hurtful to the person they target. Bigot insults are not worse than "I hope your mum gets cancer" that can be read in some chats every other day.

The solution for this is pretty simple but companies don't care enough to provide solutions for it. Remember player tribunal from LOL? This Riot telling us that handling that by themselves it's too expensive.

What needs to be done is automatic voice chat parsing (think YouTube auto subtitles) and text chat parsing. Banned words = Ban (1 day, 1 week, 1 month, perma). That won't fully fix the issue but it'll be a nice start. Won't happen tho, not important enough for most people.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Easiest thing I think Blizzard could do is to ban based on non-optional word filters, or to ban automatically based on a high threshold of reports specifically for abusive chat. They can detect cheaters and institute ban waves in the thousands but it's like pulling teeth to get some of these people off the game.

Do you have faith that Blizzard will try to combat this perception? I hesitate to derail the thread but have to think the way they've handled other issues in other games leads me to believe they'll follow the path of least resistance.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
Bigot insults are not worse than "I hope your mum gets cancer" that can be read in some chats every other day.
I have been called a "nigger bitch" and I have also had similar insults leveled at my mom.

I guarantee you from direct experience that the former insult is worse than the latter, and equating bigotry with other, more toothless insults is literally part of the problem concerning why the gaming community is awful.

Do you have faith that Blizzard will try to combat this perception?
No, not at all. It's a billion-dollar video game corporation that understands a bigot's money is as good as any.
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
This is pretty much why I hate competitive multiplayer games. Assholes everywhere and the developers allow it.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
Safe to say, I know all about sexism in Overwatch. Here's a small sample of the verbal harassment I've gotten. These are all in non-competitive modes.

overwatchsexismnonameayj0g.png


Special mention to the one in the lower right corner - My boyfriend was playing with me when that happened.
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
I have been called a "nigger bitch" and I have also had similar insults leveled at my mom.

I guarantee you the former insults is worse than the latter, and equating the two is literally part of the problem.


No, not at all. It's a billion-dollar video game corporation that understands a bigot's money is as good as any.

How is it part of the problem? And how can you guarantee one is worse than the other in any other way than your personal view? I might have misunderstood but it reads like this is a fact rather than an opinion.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Speaking up does nothing against the shit talker, although I'd agree it can help the target of the harassment.

This doesn't happen only in overwatch and it's not aimed at minorities, people will say whatever, and I mean literally whatever, they think it might be hurtful to the person they target. Bigot insults are not worse than "I hope your mum gets cancer" that can be read in some chats every other day.

The solution for this is pretty simple but companies don't care enough to provide solutions for it. Remember player tribunal from LOL? This Riot telling us that handling that by themselves it's too expensive.

What needs to be done is automatic voice chat parsing (think YouTube auto subtitles) and text chat parsing. Banned words = Ban (1 day, 1 week, 1 month, perma). That won't fully fix the issue but it'll be a nice start. Won't happen tho, not important enough for most people.

I can't speak for anyone of color, but my two cents on something like this is a targeted slur like that is always going to be worse than a generalized "I hope you get AIDS or cancer". I stopped playing Overwatch on console because there was no tolerance or patience for people that are plain bad at the game the way I was. At least that's understandable. But even then, as soon as a female voice said anything there would be a chorus of "oh fuck that bitch, we're going to lose" type casual sexism. I think being attacked for your gender or race is much different than what you're describing here. They're both intended to hurt but one specifically calls out a group of people and says they're worthless because of things out of their control. This stuff is insidious.

No, not at all. It's a billion-dollar video game corporation that understands a bigot's money is as good as any.

And this, to me, is a failure of capitalism in a nutshell. Rewarding bad behavior because money over morality. It's why the cynicism with games like Apex and Overwatch is hard to ignore since they're handled by EA and Blizzard. In EA's case at least they have said fuck you to bigoted pieces of crap in the past with mixed results.
 

Protoman200X

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,553
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada
While I haven't experienced this too often in my QP or Competitive games, when it DOES happen, most of my teammates & I will shut down the sexist moron who's attempting to sexually harass our teammate and report him in due part.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
I worked with one of these people that loved to be a giant asshole in online games, and one of the things he loved the most is when someone would take the bait and "speak up". So while it's likely effective for some of the toxicity a lot of the assholes feel like they win when people give them the attention they are seeking. The only solution that worked for him was to ban him from the game. If communities are going to be expected to do their own policing then they need to be given the tools to do so effectively.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,296
Houston, TX
The fact that this kind of sexism exists in multiplayer games is sickening. I know there are means of reporting toxic players, but I feel like more should be done about it beyond just having them be reported & hoping that the moderators for said game take action.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
While I haven't experienced this too often in my QP or Competitive games, when it DOES happen, I and most of my teammates will shut down the sexist moron who's attempting to sexually harass our teammate and report him in due part.

There was a period of time there where every other game of Overwatch had some form of harassment in it towards me. If nobody speaks up to shut it down, it gets pretty bad.
 

Deleted member 2210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,366
Other than me throwing all my games, I haven't voice chatted in months for reasons like this, despite not being a woman.
But I have noticed it happen a lot to all the women I do Q with and do my best to say something and report.
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
I can't speak for anyone of color, but my two cents on something like this is a targeted slur like that is always going to be worse than a generalized "I hope you get AIDS or cancer". I stopped playing Overwatch on console because there was no tolerance or patience for people that are plain bad at the game the way I was. At least that's understandable. But even then, as soon as a female voice said anything there would be a chorus of "oh fuck that bitch, we're going to lose" type casual sexism. I think being attacked for your gender or race is much different than what you're describing here. They're both intended to hurt but one specifically calls out a group of people and says they're worthless because of things out of their control. This stuff is insidious.



And this, to me, is a failure of capitalism in a nutshell. Rewarding bad behavior because money over morality. It's why the cynicism with games like Apex and Overwatch is hard to ignore since they're handled by EA and Blizzard. In EA's case at least they have said fuck you to bigoted pieces of crap in the past with mixed results.

I see what you mean and I agree, I haven't experienced myself tho. I have well over a thousand hours in ranked pc overwatch (and I'm a sad sad gold player) and I never had an instance of harassement that wasn't preceded by somebody thinking somebody else is bad at the game.

But that might be because indeed harassing your own teammates brings you closer to a defeat and I only play ranked.
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns of bigotry over multiple posts and excusing racist slurs
Please quit the disingenuous comparisons. Hate speech will always be worse than generic toxicity because it reinforces a whole system of discrimination and oppression.

You need to know the person you are addressing for it to be hate speech. Like Sophie's case being a woman. When you call somebody a nigger but you don't know it's skin color you just being toxic.
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
These companies need to actually moderate their platforms.

Could a return to player run servers curb this behavior? Matchmaking probably promotes harassment since the harassers feel like they'll never run into the same group of semi-anonymous players again, while servers would promote communities of players who know each other and those communities would be able to moderate their own servers.
 
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Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
If communities are going to be expected to do their own policing then they need to be given the tools to do so effectively.
Handing the tools to self-police directly in the hands of the people who already engage in targeted harassment of minorities is only going to result in more people of color and women getting kicked off these games. The Overwatch community hasn't come close to earning that responsibility. We would do much better to, somehow, lobby to the OW developers directly to take this more seriously.
 

TheUnforgiven

Banned
Nov 23, 2018
265
I'm really surprised about testimonials because it doenst come near my experience with the game.

Makes me wonder if it has anything to do with America servers VS EU servers (EU here).
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Just watched the video and I was reminded why I stopped playing online games in general. All that stupid shit that is stupid shit and then the bigoted shitcake.

He absolutely nailed the part about silence by way of muting the degenerates only isolates the victim and silence from other male players within the arena is essentially implied consent (regardless of the intent).

He also nailed the cultural part. After all, insofar as US is concerned: Obama, Trump Tie as Most Admired Man in 2019. On an international level the degeneracy that are toxic tendrils patriarchy has crept into and been gaming sector for while now. Countries like South Korea and Japan are prime examples where feminism is seen as a legitimate threat to manhood.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I'm really surprised about testimonials because it doenst come near my experience with the game.

Makes me wonder if it has anything to do with America servers VS EU servers (EU here).

As someone that walked into a bar in the middle of Wales, was identified as an American, and asked what do I think of n word(s), Europe is not exempt from problems of racism.

The problem with games like Overwatch is what the OP identified, they pretend to be for these progressive ideals but they don't follow through. There is a huge amount of dissonance between the depictions of the characters and how they treat their player base. They need to fix this, and the OP is asking people to be pro-active instead of passive about it. Your anecdotal evidence is really neither here nor there, it doesn't contradict others experiences. If one person has a terrible experience and five people don't, the five people don't cancel out the one. Every person should be able to play a game with others without experiencing these issues.