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mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Yet marketing in the US for EVs focuses on comparing how far a charge gets you vs a tank of gas.
Why wouldn't it? People have a rough idea how far they go on a tank of gas and that's roughly what they're accustomed to filling up at. It's a somewhat easy method to compare apples to oranges that the general populace understands in a metric they grasp. Even though there's a variance in people's tanks, which is kind of offset anyways because usually vehicles with a smaller tank get better miles per gallon than giant SUVs with giant tanks.

Switching the marketing from range to daily driving is only going to make the electric car look a lot worse. Obviously, if you own a home who gives a shit but if you live in an apartment or rent a home you can't install a charger in the idea of having to charge your car every day or so kind of sucks. I mean, charging at work? That's fantasy land shit, reality only to people who work at an Apple, Google or some smallish eco-centric business and no amount of money is going to change that. I'm sure businesses are lining up to maintain a bunch of chargers that would likely do nothing but cause internal strife at most companies as ICE owners gripe about not getting free gas, EV owners fight for their chance to use their limited chargers and shit like that.

I do think we needs lots more chargers, in my city if I had an electric vehicle there's only a handful of places I could charge it. It sucks. Yes to more money for chargers! And I have an apartment and we can't even keep the water working right, no way the realtor's going to install chargers and if he wasn't making bank off them the first time they got damaged or vandalized that'd be it for them.

I also think the smaller EVs had other issues, slower charging generally, small vehicles already being unpopular in the US, I don't think it was a case really of them just not being advertised well enough.

I'm not against putting chargers at places of work, apartments, and trying to incentivize x amount of people to be able to charge daily, I think those are all fine things to do on the side. I just think the electric car industry actually knows what they're doing when they're advertising their cars and think trying to explain to people the joys of daily charging is not a winning strategy.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,760
Are we attacking the Parliamentarian again?

Just a reminder that, traditionally, both the Senate and House Parliamentarians are apolitical appointments, despite being appointed to their positions by the Senate/House Leaders, respectfully. The current Senate Parliamentarian, Elizabeth MacDonough, has been in the position since 2012, appointed by Harry Reid.

The role of the Parliamentarian is simply to explain and interpret the Senate rules which, considering how many Senators can't even keep track of this, seems like a necessary and important job!

As someone who works one of these apolitical government jobs, it's extremely concerning to me to see so many on the right AND left go after apolitical government officials simply for doing their jobs. You have a problem with the Senate rules? Place your ire at the feet of the Senators. Going after the Parliamentarian is like going after a fucking librarian.
I probably missed some posts but I thought people were more complaining that Dems didn't ignore the parliamentarian because they think they could, not that she's bad at her job or something.

And I'm not going to get into the weeds as to whether it's allowed or what that process is, but it's pretty silly to think that if some Senators aren't willing to get rid of the filibuster they're totally cool with ignoring the parliamentarian. It doesn't matter what's allowed, what matters is what the Senators are willing to allow.
 

Deleted member 70788

Jun 2, 2020
9,620
I probably missed some posts but I thought people were more complaining that Dems didn't ignore the parliamentarian because they think they could, not that she's bad at her job or something.

And I'm not going to get into the weeds as to whether it's allowed or what that process is, but it's pretty silly to think that if some Senators aren't willing to get rid of the filibuster they're totally cool with ignoring the parliamentarian. It doesn't matter what's allowed, what matters is what the Senators are willing to allow.
Multiple people suggested firing the parliamentarian.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,915
Nope:


A point of order to override the Parliamentarian requires a full 60 votes to pass.

It's not a point of order to override the Parliamentarian. The point of order would be to override the Presiding Officer.

For example, for the Byrd Rule, it would go:

Senator says something violates it -> Parliamentarian is counseled -> Parliamentarian advises that it does violate the Byrd Rule for such and such reason -> Presiding Officer, on the Parliamentarians advice, says "It does violate it" so now 60 votes are needed to overrule the Presiding Officer/ignore the Byrd Rule.

If the Presiding Officer instead says that "It does not violate it" then it would take 60 votes to overrule that.

Are we attacking the Parliamentarian again?

Just a reminder that, traditionally, both the Senate and House Parliamentarians are apolitical appointments, despite being appointed to their positions by the Senate/House Leaders, respectfully. The current Senate Parliamentarian, Elizabeth MacDonough, has been in the position since 2012, appointed by Harry Reid.

The role of the Parliamentarian is simply to explain and interpret the Senate rules which, considering how many Senators can't even keep track of this, seems like a necessary and important job!

As someone who works one of these apolitical government jobs, it's extremely concerning to me to see so many on the right AND left go after apolitical government officials simply for doing their jobs. You have a problem with the Senate rules? Place your ire at the feet of the Senators. Going after the Parliamentarian is like going after a fucking librarian.

Who is attacking the Parliamentarian?
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
There is no world where you have the votes to ignore the parliamentarian and not the votes to end the filibuster (which is done by ignoring the parliamentarian). It's a pointless debate
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
It's not a point of order to override the Parliamentarian. The point of order would be to override the Presiding Officer.

For example, for the Byrd Rule, it would go:

Senator says something violates it -> Parliamentarian is counseled -> Parliamentarian advises that it does violate the Byrd Rule for such and such reason -> Presiding Officer, on the Parliamentarians advice, says "It does violate it" so now 60 votes are needed to overrule the Presiding Officer.

If the Presiding Officer instead says that "It does not violate it" then it would take 60 votes to overrule that.



Who is attacking the Parliamentarian?
No, you are ignoring what I posted. That would be the typical order of events, but not when it comes to a point of order objection based on the parliamentarian ruling on if an amendment to
an appropriations bill is germane. That gets referred directly to the Senate, bypassing the presiding officer, and requires 60 votes to override.

The way around that is to, again, use 50 votes to change the senate rules to go around the Parlimentarian.

But again again, this argument is stupid, because there is not even 50 votes worth of support to overrule the Parliamentarian anyway.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Of course it wouldn't happen. I'm not sure anyone has said it would happen.

Sure, but I am saying whether it will or won't happen is besides the point anyway because the entire concept of the suggestion makes no sense. If you have the votes, then you have the votes and there is no upside to doing it in reconciliation in the first place. All it adds is additional precedents you need to throw out. It's literally the same mechanism as the nuclear option. If you don't have the votes to go nuclear then trying to do it in reconciliation doesn't help you
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,757
It wouldn't have passed. That's the point. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Pass it, lock it in, and move on to the next thing.

People really need to understand that having one omnibus bill handle literally every issue is unrealistic and frankly impossible.
It wasn't impossible it was in it until a few weeks ago. Manchin wanted it means tested. They dropped it but it was very possible.

This bill can be good and also disappointing and a missed opportunity at the same time we do not Have to pick one side on it and stick with it

Subsidized child care and universal pre-K would be game changing for Americans and that's not just for parents. It would make our next generation of kids so much better due to critical early childhood development that poor ppl often can't afford from quality child care centers.

It wouldn't have passed isn't a good attitude coz it was literally still in the bill in July. It could've passed. It literally came 2 votes short and again, reports are Manchin wanted it means tested and didn't want rich ppl getting 90% of child care. Could've means tested it and at least helped ppl.

Not to mention HOW DO YOU VOTE AGAINST SUBSIDIZED ELDER CARE lol. Dems can be doing good with this and still messing up being unable to drum up public interest in something that should be a slam dunk.
Well if you have ideas on how to make that pass the Senate, we're all ears!
I mean run ads or communicate the benefits of the child care elder care part to your voters. Barely anyone knew that was In it and it was still in a month ago. Manchin reportedly didn't even dislike it he just didn't want rich ppl to get it (means testing is bs of course)

I mean a little marketing for a bill that was in the works for a whole year would've maybe put pressure on Dems to keep it 100% of the way instead of 95% of the way
Listen, for bills that barely pass, with every vote counting, like this one and the ACA, you have to know that they absolutely pushed it as far as they could have. I can't fault Biden for anything here; it's a conservative country, and they did what they had the votes to do.
The bill is good. I can still fault biden for it. Especially when it would save familes with kids under 5 10k+ a year, and a universal prek program would benefit everyone, even those without kids since kids would be more likely to get the early childhood development they need, thus making our next generation better, smarter and likely more prepared to take on all the bs we are leaving them.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Why wouldn't it? People have a rough idea how far they go on a tank of gas and that's roughly what they're accustomed to filling up at. It's a somewhat easy method to compare apples to oranges that the general populace understands in a metric they grasp. Even though there's a variance in people's tanks, which is kind of offset anyways because usually vehicles with a smaller tank get better miles per gallon than giant SUVs with giant tanks.

Because the average driver goes to the gas station once per 1-2 weeks, but park it at home or at work for hours long stretches every day. They don't go to the gas station when their odometer says they've driven 300 miles, they do it by looking at the fuel gauge. If you have a 20 mile daily commute and a 40 mile electric range and charge daily your battery gauge won't go under 50%.

Switching the marketing from range to daily driving is only going to make the electric car look a lot worse. Obviously, if you own a home who gives a shit but if you live in an apartment or rent a home you can't install a charger in the idea of having to charge your car every day or so kind of sucks. I mean, charging at work? That's fantasy land shit, reality only to people who work at an Apple, Google or some smallish eco-centric business and no amount of money is going to change that. I'm sure businesses are lining up to maintain a bunch of chargers that would likely do nothing but cause internal strife at most companies as ICE owners gripe about not getting free gas, EV owners fight for their chance to use their limited chargers and shit like that.

I do think we needs lots more chargers, in my city if I had an electric vehicle there's only a handful of places I could charge it. It sucks. Yes to more money for chargers! And I have an apartment and we can't even keep the water working right, no way the realtor's going to install chargers and if he wasn't making bank off them the first time they got damaged or vandalized that'd be it for them.

Sure, if you don't have a garage or live in an apartment it's absolutely a concern. That's why I said something like the $7.5k incentive should be targeting installing home and public chargers. Level 2 chargers cost much less than $7.5k (you can probably install 4 of them for that cost). They don't have to be free to use, you'd just have to be cheaper than gas and quick to plug in (maybe with NFC tag payment system). Make chargers available everywhere you can park. It will make it easier to not market EVs based on battery range.

I also think the smaller EVs had other issues, slower charging generally, small vehicles already being unpopular in the US, I don't think it was a case really of them just not being advertised well enough.

I'm not against putting chargers at places of work, apartments, and trying to incentivize x amount of people to be able to charge daily, I think those are all fine things to do on the side. I just think the electric car industry actually knows what they're doing when they're advertising their cars and think trying to explain to people the joys of daily charging is not a winning strategy.

Democrat-controlled state and federal government aggressively mandated better fuel efficiency for ICE vehicles, something that the industry wouldn't have done on their own. The government can figure out something for EVs as well to discourage the trend of hauling around over 1,000 lbs of batteries in 200+ mile range models. You can buy a Chevy Spark or a Kia Rio but no equivalent EV in the US because they wouldn't be able to cram enough batteries to hit 200 miles in that size. Not to mention how the batteries raise the minimum price of low-end models and making EVs unaffordable for people in that price range.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,687
DFW
It's such a silly Internet argument. Playing brazen procedural politics will likely lose at least one of the 50 necessary to pass a reconciliation bill. If you have 50 votes to effectively bypass the filibuster by adjusting the parliamentarian's role, then you have 50 votes to remove or curtail the filibuster. But you don't have either!
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,915
No, you are ignoring what I posted. That would be the typical order of events, but not when it comes to a point of order objection based on the parliamentarian ruling on if an amendment to
an appropriations bill is germane. That gets referred directly to the Senate, bypassing the presiding officer, and requires 60 votes to override.

The way around that is to, again, use 50 votes to change the senate rules to go around the Parlimentarian.

But again again, this argument is stupid, because there is not even 50 votes worth of support to overrule the Parliamentarian anyway.

Yes, if you are talking about Amendments, I wasn't. For example, on the insulin "ruling", the VP could ignore the Parliamentarian as it wouldn't go straight to the Senate.

Who is arguing that there is? I think you misunderstand me for arguing that they should do it when I'm simply stating that it is possible.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
Yeah, and fuck them for that.

And the Parliamentarian is a non-political appointment.
"Fuck them"

Isn't an argument. Replace "political appointee" with civil service worker and my point still stands. When given the choice between firing a civil service worker and passing their agenda, republicans chose to pass their agenda and paid zero political price for it. When Dems do it, the rules would suddenly go out the window?
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,687
DFW
"Fuck them"

Isn't an argument. Replace "political appointee" with civil service worker and my point still stands. When given the choice between firing a civil service worker and passing their agenda, republicans chose to pass their agenda and paid zero political price for it. When Dems do it, the rules would suddenly go out the window?
Your argument only makes sense if you can guarantee that someone (Sinema, basically) wouldn't defect. You can't prove this, and no one can prove the opposite — it's unknowable. But she already publicly stated (for whatever that's worth) her support for following the parliamentarian's rulings.

It is theoretically possible that everything you're suggesting could have happened, but I don't think it's remotely likely.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
It's such a silly Internet argument. Playing brazen procedural politics will likely lose at least one of the 50 necessary to pass a reconciliation bill. If you have 50 votes to effectively bypass the filibuster by adjusting the parliamentarian's role, then you have 50 votes to remove or curtail the filibuster. But you don't have either!
The republicans had 50 votes in 2001.
Your argument only makes sense if you can guarantee that someone (Sinema, basically) wouldn't defect. You can't prove this, and no one can prove the opposite — it's unknowable. But she already publicly stated (for whatever that's worth) her support for following the parliamentarian's rulings.

It is theoretically possible that everything you're suggesting could have happened, but I don't think it's remotely likely.
Well at least we can agree that it's possible I've spent the last few pages defending the idea that anything more than what current senate leadership is able to achieve is even theoretically possible.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Your argument only makes sense if you can guarantee that someone (Sinema, basically) wouldn't defect. You can't prove this, and no one can prove the opposite — it's unknowable. But she already publicly stated (for whatever that's worth) her support for following the parliamentarian's rulings.

It is theoretically possible that everything you're suggesting could have happened, but I don't think it's remotely likely.

And this is all before grappling with the fact that, in this hypothetical, you're firing the Parliamentarian to replace them with a yes-man who'll do what you say (who exactly is you? Nobody knows!), even if it goes against Senate procedure or, hey, the law.
 

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,073
yeah this sounds like offering but no requirement they're sold


nonsense. I moved from electric to gas. I want electric back so bad. So much more control, doesn't smell like shit, safer and cheaper

Induction stovetop are legit af.

I mean electric coil stoves sure, but not induction.
And "my stove's heat control kind of sucks, is like quintessential first world problems. It's perfectly fine and capable of serving you day to day (again not talking about induction which is exceptional).
Yeah, I was referring to old coil/heating element stove tops, I forgot about about those fancy modern induction ones.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Yes, if you are talking about Amendments, I wasn't as I mentioned the Byrd Rule. For example, on the insulin "ruling, the VP could ignore the Parliamentarian as it wouldn't go straight to the Senate.

Who is arguing that there is? I think you misunderstand me for arguing that they should do it when I'm simply stating that it is possible.
Again, this is not correct. From the House Budget site:
Any Senator may raise a point of order against an extraneous provision in the reconciliation bill, amendments, or the conference agreement. The Senate Parliamentarian decides whether there is a Byrd rule violation, and provisions struck through a Byrd rule point of order cannot be offered later as amendments. However, Byrd rule points of order can be waived by a vote of 60 Senators.
 
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Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
"Fuck them"

Isn't an argument. Replace "political appointee" with civil service worker and my point still stands. When given the choice between firing a civil service worker and passing their agenda, republicans chose to pass their agenda and paid zero political price for it. When Dems do it, the rules would suddenly go out the window?
They did once, 20 years ago. They haven't since, as it should be.

When we start to fire non-partisan civil servants just correctly doing their job in order to replace them with some yes-man who doesn't give a fuck about the rules, we become the baddies.
 
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mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Because the average driver goes to the gas station once per 1-2 weeks, but park it at home or at work for hours long stretches every day. They don't go to the gas station when their odometer says they've driven 300 miles, they do it by looking at the fuel gauge. If you have a 20 mile daily commute and a 40 mile electric range and charge daily your battery gauge won't go under 50%.
Yeah, and?
Sure, if you don't have a garage or live in an apartment it's absolutely a concern. That's why I said something like the $7.5k incentive should be targeting installing home and public chargers. Level 2 chargers cost much less than $7.5k (you can probably install 4 of them for that cost). They don't have to be free to use, you'd just have to be cheaper than gas and quick to plug in (maybe with NFC tag payment system). Make chargers available everywhere you can park. It will make it easier to not market EVs based on battery range.
I mean, yes, but I think people are greatly underestimating the burden of maintaining these chargers outside of the usual places people fill up at. Most of them are in nicely lit and maintained 24 hour gas stations and you still find a bunch out of order, just throwing out hundreds or millions of chargers all over the place is going to be an awesome one time thing and in 4 years 3 quarters of them will be scrap. Like what entity is going to be responsible for these chargers at work places, apartment buildings and other private places? Who is going to ensure they're maintained? Upgrade their payment methods, check for skimmers and shit like that? I just don't think most places really want that headache. I think you'll get people to sign on initially but I don't think it's a realistic future where they remain working after the initial investment.

I think it's far more sound to push to install them where people initially expect to find them, gas stations are ideal, obviously in a way electric chargers are a bailout for them because without the need for someone to gas up many people will go somewhere cheaper, they'd have a vested interest in maintaining whatever chargers they install at some point, especially once ICE vehicles are on their way out. A homeowner definitely also has a vested interest in maintaining a station(if one is needed), I'm all for incentivizing people to install them in their homes.

Places like places of work, businesses, apartment complexes, shit gets a lot more complex there. There's clearly going to be some places that'd love to have them but having lived in apartment complexes all my life I can tell you, for many tenants, getting them fixed once they're broken is going to be hell. Unless there's some Federal money and employees that drive around the country and keeps repairing these things for free they're going to be in disrepair pretty fast.

Lord help the people who live in apartments who don't have enough chargers for all the Tenants, man, going to be a lot of gun deaths over that shit.

It's not even that I think you're wrong from an environmental standpoint it's just that I find myself asking what country do you think this is? People roll coal here to own the libs. They unplug your EV when you're not looking out of spite. They destroy chargers to deny people the ability to charge their EVs. Hell, until there are enough charging stations setting one up could even be a liability, now people are using your parking space to charge their cars using shit you envisioned for your employees or tenants. Couple that with wanting to install these things at places where it isn't even their core "business" and they're apt to be some after thought and this world of being able to charge wherever you need to go just isn't going to happen here.
Democrat-controlled state and federal government aggressively mandated better fuel efficiency for ICE vehicles, something that the industry wouldn't have done on their own. The government can figure out something for EVs as well to discourage the trend of hauling around over 1,000 lbs of batteries in 200+ mile range models. You can buy a Chevy Spark or a Kia Rio but no equivalent EV in the US because they wouldn't be able to cram enough batteries to hit 200 miles in that size, not to mention how the batteries raise the minimum price of low-end models.
They couldn't even discourage the existence of giant ICE SUVs.

I mean, I'm in agreement that for a lot of people large hybrids are just as wasteful as large ICE vehicles were. I just think you have things a little backwards on who's creating demand for what here. Our fellow Americans are the ones clamoring for larger vehicles, they're not being hoodwinked by the automakers into wanting large vehicles.

Yes, ultimately the government could solve this, ban ICE vehicles tomorrow, mandate EVs, limit EV size through legislation and people would beg for shit to be installed everywhere.

Really though we should be building out public transportation.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
They did once, 20 years ago. They haven't since, as it should be.

When we start foreign non-partisan civil servants just correctly doing their job in order to replace them with some yes-man who doesn't give a fuck about the rules, we become the baddies.
Wow, I've never heard such high minded frippery. The argument was originally "the Dems can't do this, and if they did all rules would fly out the window". Now the argument is that civil servants (who are humans and all humans have a partisan lean) should never be replaced by the party in power if an important agenda item hangs in the balance. In this case, we are supposed to believe the parliamentarian was the only thing standing between 40-50% reduction in emissions. Given the choice between reducing emissions enough to save the planet, and retaining an air of superiority over self imposed principles that the opposing party doesn't care about, I would take the obvious choice. So which is it? It's impossible or we shouldn't do it even if it is possible?
 

nitekrawler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
312
This is why we can't have nice things.

I'll be damned if we ever get to just enjoy and celebrate something nice. Must all things devolve into a fight about how something good isn't good enough?

Even that would probably be fine if it weren't filled with feckless idiots suggesting that we do what the people who destroy democracy and our institutions do, while somehow opining that doing exactly as they do wouldn't make us just as bad as they are. Ironically they will accuse those trying to preserve the democracy and institutions as somehow treating politics like team sports when they are clearly advocating for the remains of our tattered democracy and institutions nay the nation itself over the immediate win for their team. 2016 made this timeline so absurd and I am so so tired.

Thank you Senate, oh broken body that you are for doing something today. I really appreciate it and hope that it is a platform for more reforms to heal this broken nation moving forward.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Wow, I've never heard such high minded frippery. The argument was originally "the Dems can't do this, and if they did all rules would fly out the window". Now the argument is that civil servants (who are humans and all humans have a partisan lean) should never be replaced by the party in power if an important agenda item hangs in the balance. In this case, we are supposed to believe the parliamentarian was the only thing standing between 40-50% reduction in emissions. Given the choice between reducing emissions enough to save the planet, and retaining an air of superiority over self imposed principles that the opposing party doesn't care about, I would take the obvious choice. So which is it? It's impossible or we shouldn't do it even if it is possible?

So, you want Democrats to fire the current Parliamentarian, and replace them with one that will lie for them?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Wow, I've never heard such high minded frippery. The argument was originally "the Dems can't do this, and if they did all rules would fly out the window". Now the argument is that civil servants (who are humans and all humans have a partisan lean) should never be replaced by the party in power if an important agenda item hangs in the balance. In this case, we are supposed to believe the parliamentarian was the only thing standing between 40-50% reduction in emissions. Given the choice between reducing emissions enough to save the planet, and retaining an air of superiority over self imposed principles that the opposing party doesn't care about, I would take the obvious choice. So which is it? It's impossible or we shouldn't do it even if it is possible?
Ok, you have proven, again, that you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Parliamentarian didn't rule against any element of the climate parts of the deal. The only part of the IRA that the parliamentarian ruled against was the prescription drug price limits for people on private insurance. Because that doesn't impact the federal budget, so it doesn't qualify to be in a reconciliation bill.

You really need to do some more readings on all these issues, because you genuinely don't seem have an actual working knowledge of the issues being discussed in this thread.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
Ok, you have proven, again, that you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Parliamentarian didn't rule against any element of the climate parts of the deal. The only part of the IRA that the parliamentarian ruled against was the prescription drug price limits for people on private insurance. Because that doesn't impact the federal budget, so it doesn't qualify to be in a reconciliation bill.

You really need to do some more readings on all these issues, because you genuinely don't seem have an actual working knowledge of the issues being discussed in this thread.
I said "given the choice" I didn't say that was the choice here. I didn't bring up the parliamentarian as a barrier to the 50% emissions target being included. I argued that there is no compelling procedural reason why a 50% reduction couldn't be included but a 40% could. So let's not be revisionist
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
So, you want Democrats to fire the current Parliamentarian, and replace them with one that will lie for them?
No im just keeping track of how far the goalposts have shifted in this thread. Why would the parliamentarian need to lie when there are plenty of justifiable reasons why the worst effects of climate change will impact the budget.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Honestly, I don't even understand the point of bitching about 10% of emissions when talking about an estimate almost 10 years out. This bill might not even really reduce our emissions by 40% by 2030, maybe we do hit 50%? Who knows? It's a fricking estimate. Maybe the science comes back two years from now and is like "oh shit, more methane's being released than we thought along with more deforestation than we estimated so now your old targets are still too low" and hitting 50% reduction by 2030 still dooms the human race!

Look, the climate battle isn't over, it will never be over. Biden could have passed a bill(in a perfect world where Manchin and co would have gone further) that aimed at 100% reduction by 2040 and Biden could lose re-election and it all gets ripped up in 2024. Hell, the current climate shit could all get ripped up in 2024.

You didn't win the war but you did win a battle. Sit down, relax, celebrate for a little bit and then get back to work tomorrow. There's no need to sit there and think you could've won harder in the last fight, just focus on the next one.
 

Deleted member 43

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Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I said "given the choice" I didn't say that was the choice here. I didn't bring up the parliamentarian as a barrier to the 50% emissions target being included. I argued that there is no compelling procedural reason why a 50% reduction couldn't be included but a 40% could. So let's not be revisionist
What are you even talking about? You keep changing your story about what you meant to say, when the obvious truth is you simply don't have have a working command of the facts and issues we are discussing here.

No im just keeping track of how far the goalposts have shifted in this thread. Why would the parliamentarian need to lie when there are plenty of justifiable reasons why the worst effects of climate change will impact the budget.
Again, the Parliamentarian didn't throw out any climate related elements of the IRA.

And every element of a reconciliation bill has to have a direct and immediate impact on federal spending or revenue. It's not "eventually climate change will impact everything," that's not how the process works. Every line in the bill has to be about money being raised or spent.

And the Parliamentarian doesn't set those rules. The members of the Senate do, and they can change them with a simple majority vote. The Parliamentarian's only job is to say when those rules are not being followed.
 

Iron_Maw

Banned
Nov 4, 2021
2,378
Wow, I've never heard such high minded frippery. The argument was originally "the Dems can't do this, and if they did all rules would fly out the window". Now the argument is that civil servants (who are humans and all humans have a partisan lean) should never be replaced by the party in power if an important agenda item hangs in the balance. In this case, we are supposed to believe the parliamentarian was the only thing standing between 40-50% reduction in emissions. Given the choice between reducing emissions enough to save the planet, and retaining an air of superiority over self imposed principles that the opposing party doesn't care about, I would take the obvious choice. So which is it? It's impossible or we shouldn't do it even if it is possible?
Parliamentarian isn't standing between anything. Reconciliation is not a pass whatever session you think it is. Its stringent process that's far limited than regular legistrative session everything must be tied budgetary laws and mechiasim that fed gov controls. The main benefit is just takes 50 votes to pass something assuming all party members agree as it is the Senate that enforces the rules.

If you want something bigger than get more Dems so we don't need to use it in the first place.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,245
New York City
They did once, 20 years ago. They haven't since, as it should be.

When we start to fire non-partisan civil servants just correctly doing their job in order to replace them with some yes-man who doesn't give a fuck about the rules, we become the baddies.
Eh this is almost off topic but I don't really like these comparisons where doing the right thing the wrong way makes us the bad guys. No it doesn't. We have to have conviction about what's right and what's wrong and playing by the rules shouldn't be a part of that equation. The rules are never fair anyways.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Eh this is almost off topic but I don't really like these comparisons where doing the right thing the wrong way makes us the bad guys. No it doesn't. We have to have conviction about what's right and what's wrong and playing by the rules shouldn't be a part of that equation. The rules are never fair anyways.
The Democrats in the Senate are the ones making the rules! If we have convictions that the rules are wrong, the right thing to do would be change them, which we have the power to do!

Instead the solution being offered in this case would be firing someone for doing exactly what they were instructed to, in the manner they were instructed to do it, under the rules that the Senate Dems themselves approved! In no world would doing that be the right thing to do.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,425
Eh this is almost off topic but I don't really like these comparisons where doing the right thing the wrong way makes us the bad guys. No it doesn't. We have to have conviction about what's right and what's wrong and playing by the rules shouldn't be a part of that equation. The rules are never fair anyways.

It does make us the bad guys at some point. Because to flip your final sentence here, no one is ever right always. We here cannot even agree on liberal policies a lot of times. Can we guarantee that 99% of the things we would suggest or want would be better than Republicans? Sure. But can we guarantee that the things/policies that come to mind will always be the absolute 'right thing'? Absolutely not. The discussions we have had here about stuff during the height of BLM and so so many topics about LGBT rights here on this forum have confirmed this IMO. My intentions are genuine, but I have been so deadass wrong on MANY issues and only realized it after much discussion.

The whole "authoritarian rule is okay as long as its my side in control" is IMO and awful awful thing to believe.

Edit: I apologize if I misunderstood, I have a bunch of people in this thread on ignore so Im not realizing I may be missing context.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
Honestly, I don't even understand the point of bitching about 10% of emissions when talking about an estimate almost 10 years out. This bill might not even really reduce our emissions by 40% by 2030, maybe we do hit 50%? Who knows? It's a fricking estimate. Maybe the science comes back two years from now and is like "oh shit, more methane's being released than we thought along with more deforestation than we estimated so now your old targets are still too low" and hitting 50% reduction by 2030 still dooms the human race!

Are you actually serious? "Bitching about a 10% reduction". The level of flippancy about climate change is something I'd expect from the right. What do the scientists really know? What if we are wrong and we make the world a better place for no reason? Did you watch "look up"?

What are you even talking about? You keep changing your story about what you meant to say, when the obvious truth is you simply don't have have a working command of the facts and issues we are discussing here.


Again, the Parliamentarian didn't throw out any climate related elements of the IRA.

And every element of a reconciliation bill has to have a direct and immediate impact on federal spending or revenue. It's not "eventually climate change will impact everything," that's not how the process works. Every line in the bill has to be about money being raised or spent.

And the Parliamentarian doesn't set those rules. The members of the Senate do, and they can change them with a simple majority vote. The Parliamentarian's only job is to say when those rules are not being followed.

I didn't say the parliamentarian did throw out any climate related provisions. I'll ask again, which rule would have prevented 50% reduction in emissions and not 40%?

Parliamentarian isn't standing between anything. Reconciliation is not a pass whatever session you think it is. Its stringent process that's far limited than regular legistrative session everything must be tied budgetary laws and mechiasim that fed gov controls. The main benefit is just takes 50 votes to pass something assuming all party members agree as it is the Senate that enforces the rules.

If you want something bigger than get more Dems so we don't need to use it in the first place.
I didn't say it was "pass whatever" so stop telling me that's what I think.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
True but I guess I don't read that as she's bad at her job but more like an obstacle to getting what people want. I don't see anybody saying she's making an incorrect decision or evil or trying to sabotage democrats.
She's not the obstacle. The obstacle are the rules the Senate sets for itself.

If the Senate does not like how the Parliamentarian rules on the rules that it set for itself, the Senate could simply change those rules in the first place.

But I guess scapegoating non-political appointees is easier.
 
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Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Hey, Civil Servant, just want to say good work! You've been with us for decades, and you've done a wonderful job! Nobody has a problem with how you've fulfilled your role. But see, there's something we Democrats really want to make happen, but instead of doing our jobs and making it happen in accordance with the rules and law, we've decided to just fire you because you won't lie to the public to cover our asses.

We hope you understand; we're trying to do the right thing, after all.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
Hey, Civil Servant, just want to say good work! You've been with us for decades, and you've done a wonderful job! Nobody has a problem with how you've fulfilled your role. But see, there's something we Democrats really want to make happen, but instead of doing our jobs and making it happen in accordance with the rules and law, we've decided to just fire you because you won't lie to the public to cover our asses.

We hope you understand; we're trying to do the right thing, after all.
You left out the part where there aren't laws that would prevent this and the rules are self imposed. And that "something we want to do" is something all the s best science says is non negotiable
 

ak1287

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,935
It does make us the bad guys at some point. Because to flip your final sentence here, no one is ever right always. We here cannot even agree on liberal policies a lot of times. Can we guarantee that 99% of the things we would suggest or want would be better than Republicans? Sure. But can we guarantee that the things/policies that come to mind will always be the absolute 'right thing'? Absolutely not. The discussions we have had here about stuff during the height of BLM and so so many topics about LGBT rights here on this forum have confirmed this IMO. My intentions are genuine, but I have been so deadass wrong on MANY issues and only realized it after much discussion.

The whole "authoritarian rule is okay as long as its my side in control" is IMO and awful awful thing to believe.

Edit: I apologize if I misunderstood, I have a bunch of people in this thread on ignore so Im not realizing I may be missing context.
You interpreted that statement correctly.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
I'm not sure why we're still entertaining someone who thought a bunch of sternly worded Op-Eds is what pushed Manchin over the edge.
 

Orion117

Prophet of Regret - A King's Landing
Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,918
I didn't say the parliamentarian did throw out any climate related provisions. I'll ask again, which rule would have prevented 50% reduction in emissions and not 40%?
You seem to have got your wires crossed. Who said anything about there being rules on emission reduction?
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,760
She's not the obstacle. The obstacle are the rules the Senate sets for itself.

If the Senate does not like how the Parliamentarian rules on the rules that it itself set for itself, the Senate could simply change those rules in the first place.

But I guess scapegoating non-political appointees is easier.
To be clear, I never advocated firing her and I think it's a stupid debate.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Are you actually serious? "Bitching about a 10% reduction". The level of flippancy about climate change is something I'd expect from the right. What do the scientists really know? What if we are wrong and we make the world a better place for no reason? Did you watch "look up"?



I didn't say the parliamentarian did throw out any climate related provisions. I'll ask again, which rule would have prevented 50% reduction in emissions and not 40%?


I didn't say it was "pass whatever" so stop telling me that's what I think.
The rules about reconciliation keep it to only things that directly impact spending or revenue for the federal government. So you can't use reconciliation to, say, require people to install solar panels. You can only, say, offer financial tax incentives to do so. Same for emission limits, you can't set any, you can only really use spending and taxes to incentivize reduced emission.

This works pretty well, but to do everything we need to do to reduce emissions there will need to be additional, actual regulations and legal limits.

Manchin also limited how much could be spent by this bill, so while under BBB we would have gotten a little closer to 50% (for $200 billion more), we still wouldn't have gotten to that target.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,121
Limburg
The rules about reconciliation keep it to only things that directly impact spending or revenue for the federal government. So you can't use reconciliation to, say, require people to install solar panels. You can only, say, offer financial tax incentives to do so. Same for emission limits, you can't set any, you can only really use spending and taxes to incentivize reduced emission.

This works pretty well, but to do everything we need to do to reduce emissions there will need to be additional, actual regulations and legal limits.

Manchin also limited how much could be spent by this bill, so while under BBB we would have gotten a little closer to 50% (for $200 billion more), we still wouldn't have gotten to that target.
So what exactly is limiting that extra 10% that wont directly impact spending but allows the other 40%? Also Manchin is a dem so it's fair to criticize leadership for not securing his vote on legislation that would be both necessary and sufficient.