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Deleted member 12790

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It's such a scary time right now, I search for things to lift my mood. I watched apollo 13 earlier today, and there are a couple of scenes in the movie that have reminded me how incredible we are as a species and why there is still hope that science will come through with a vaccine or something. I was extremely luck and got to attend school at a magnet program which sent me to take classes at Johnson Space Center which actually coincided with them filming Apollo 13. We learned all sorts of behind the scenes stories that make it all seem so incredible.

Two scenes in particular:



This is one of the most mind blowing feats of human ability in history, IMO. To give a quick recap of what's going on, the apollo 13 has basically exploded in space, and is leaking fuel. They are tumbling around in space, doing flips, before they get it re-stabilized. They need to turn off all their computers in order to survive reentry and conserve for one major controlled burn to boost the back to earth. But one problem, the tumbling of the ship has confused their orientation, they don't know which way in space they are pointing. They need to boost later in their mission to reach earth, but without knowing which way they are facing, they can't make any calculations to know how long to boost for. If they can't figure out their orientation, when they boost, they will sling off into space and be lost forever.

The solution is to re-calculate orientation using the gimble, which requires power. But they need to shut the power off immediately, so they only get ONE chance to get the reading correct. Quite literally everything forward in the entire rescue relies on getting the calculation of their orientation correctly. They have not only one chance to get it right, they have to do so extremely quickly.

I do math related to 3D rotations all the time owing to my work in computer graphics. Orientation and gimblelock are extremely complex problems, this is very hard math. To avoid gimblelock, they work with quaternions, 4th dimensional rotations. Even among computer graphics engineers, quaternion math is difficult, most people just let their calculators handle it. They didn't have calculators in those days. They had scientists.

So Jim Lovell relays to NASA that he's under too much distress and can't calculate the rotation correctly, he begs them to help. And NASA turns to this team of rockstar engineers to get the job done. With paper, pencil, and slide rulers, a team calculates the rotation in seconds, each independently verifying each other. They do so quickly enough to buy just enough time to have enough power for reentry and the controlled burn.

The other scene:



after getting everything stable in ship, the team runs into a new problem. The craft wasn't built to filter CO2 for this many people for this long. They have taken refuge in the lunar lander, which was only meant for two people. They are poisoning themselves with their breaths. And the CO2 cartridges for the lunar lander and the apollo craft are incompatible, literally a square peg in a round hole situation.

The movie plays this up a bit more dramatically, saying a team of scientists figured it out in a meeting, but the actual way it happened is even more amazing if not less film-friendly. The person behind the lunar lander design was called in on an emergency, and during his drive to dallas, invented the entire process in his head, on the fly. It wasn't a team that did it, it was one man under extreme pressure. Not only did he come up with the design, he also helped write the manual that had to relay how to build the converter. Keep in mind, they didn't have video, only audio, so he had to figure out how to phrase the process well enough that people could build the device sight unseen.

And here's the good shit: THEY DID IT. They did it all, every time during Apollo 13 that they faced a do-or-die situation, these amazing people came through in the clutch. We're an amazing species, we can do great things when our backs are up against the wall. I see dozens of research institutions right now coming up with open source ventilator designs. I see small inventors at home coming up with adapters that can let 1 ventilator work for 4 people. I see the spirit of invention right now, and it gives me life. I hope these clips bring some comfort to others like they did to me.
 

aevanhoe

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Aug 28, 2018
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A great moment in history, amazing people, inspirational scenes. Good movie, too :)
 

Nigel Tufnel

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Mar 5, 2019
3,146
I love Apollo 13, one of my favorite movies. "Lost Moon" is the book that cover's Lovell's recollection of the events and is the source material for the movie, and its worth a read if you are a fan. It is I think the best real world sci fi story. The problems they overcame in the moment with in essence the computational power of an old graphing calculator strain my ability to believe, yet it really happened.



As a side note, Lovell performed those calculations himself while tumbling through space in a ship that had suffered an explosion and was leaking fuel and oxygen, and had ground control check the figures- which were accurate.

Maybe the most 'right stuff' moment of spaceflight outside of Neil Armstrong saving Gemini 8 from an uncontrolled roll due to OAMS failure while outside of communication range.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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always loved that scene

img
 

sfedai0

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Oct 27, 2017
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Unfortunately, its heavily dramatized as expected of Hollywood. Still doesnt take away the fact that the engineers and astronauts were amazing under pressure.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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also loved everyone checking and re-checking each others calculations on the ground (and shows the astronauts doing the math as well)
 

John Dunbar

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Oct 25, 2017
6,229
anyone think that gary sinise is hoping for the shuttle to explode when he watches the launch?
 
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Deleted member 12790

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As a side note, Lovell performed those calculations himself while tumbling through space in a ship that had suffered an explosion and was leaking fuel and oxygen, and had ground control check the figures- which were accurate.

Right, the point was he wasn't confident in his calculations. Which, given the moment, is understandable. But the check by the ground was probably more important in the long run. They HAD to be right so fast. It's incredible.

Unfortunately, its heavily dramatized as expected of Hollywood. Still doesnt take away the fact that the engineers and astronauts were amazing under pressure.


It is, but it isn't. The drama comes from the framing, or from taking a story, like I said above, about one guy coming up with something in an equally dramatic way, but making it more "film-able." I got to meet some of the human calculators they had, they were actually women. They were amazing people. That entire crew was amazing.
 

Nigel Tufnel

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Mar 5, 2019
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Right, the point was he wasn't confident in his calculations. Which, given the moment, is understandable. But the check by the ground was probably more important in the long run. They HAD to be right so fast. It's incredible.




It is, but it isn't. The drama comes from the framing, or from taking a story, like I said above, about one guy coming up with something in an equally dramatic way, but making it more "film-able." I got to meet some of the human calculators they had, they were actually women. They were amazing people. That entire crew was amazing.
I guess its a matter of perspective. He was right, that fast, while tumbling through space in a crippled ship. I think its an order of magnitude more impressive than the guys on the ground getting right quickly, which doesn't diminish the impressiveness of their feat, either.
 

JoseJX

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Oct 26, 2017
212
It's one of the best engineering movies ever made and always uplifting. Good choice! I always liked October Sky too if you're looking for something else to watch that's thematically adjacent.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Just to give a perspective on the type of technology they were using at the time: They used ROPE MEMORY. Like, you know the RAM in your computer? They had memory made out of ROPE:

7lstzlk.jpg


Someone above said they had the power of a calculator: not even! The Apollo spacecraft had LESS than the power of calculators. Calculators at the time were huge and expensive and power hungry and took a long time to add and subtract. They had really light switches at the best. Not even a calculator.

It's mind blowing how primitive all this stuff was, and they still got it done. A ship blew up half way to the moon, and they continued all the way to the moon and back into reentry and survived without a scratch, all thanks to genius-level emergency thinking.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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I guess its a matter of perspective. He was right, that fast, while tumbling through space in a crippled ship. I think its an order of magnitude more impressive than the guys on the ground getting right quickly, which doesn't diminish the impressiveness of their feat, either.

I just can't imagine the balls it would take to be able to perform under that pressure. From either perspective. I'm playing half life alyx and when 5 head crabs come at me at once, I shut down and can't remember how to reload. When I solve for rotation, I take up an entire whiteboard and have super computers beside me to check my math.

Ice water in the veins, I believe it's called.
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
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Oct 25, 2017
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(holds flashlight) "Hey what is this? Don't give me ANYTHING that they don't have up there!"

I hear ya. What a great moment in human history.
 

captive

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yea this stuff is amazing.
I watched first man last night and all I could think about is how we put men on the moon with less computational power than what I'm holding on my hand writing this post.
 

Nigel Tufnel

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Mar 5, 2019
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Unfortunately, its heavily dramatized as expected of Hollywood. Still doesnt take away the fact that the engineers and astronauts were amazing under pressure.
Only in fairly gentle ways by Hollywood standards, though. Every technical problem referenced in the movie was is more or less accurately presented.

Examples where stuff get's Hollywooded a little:

-there were 4 rotating mission control teams; Gene Kranz led one of the teams, but he wasn't in charge at mission control at all times. In fact, his team stepped out of the rotation to work the problems while the other teams extended their shifts running operations at mission control

-Ken Mattingly's role on the ground is probably a bit overstated, but you can't waste great casting like Gary Sinise
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Yea this stuff is amazing.
I watched first man last night and all I could think about is how we put men on the moon with less computational power than what I'm holding on my hand writing this post.

If you'd like to see first hand what using the computers at NASA that sent people to the moon were like, check this out:



A little bit older than what they had in 1969 but not by much comparatively. My mentor at NASA was a FORTRAN programmer. They still have FORTRAN programmers at NASA and still use legacy FORTRAN code in extremely critical parts.
 

Raccoon

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May 31, 2019
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A fantastic film. Good thread.

Moreover, I don't think I'll ever actually understand quaternion math.
 

Maple

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Oct 27, 2017
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It still blows my mind that we landed on the moon in the 60s. With engineers and scientists doing math in real time by hand.

Like, how the fuck.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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A fantastic film. Good thread.

Moreover, I don't think I'll ever actually understand quaternion math.

I learned quaternions from books backwards, I arrived at quaternions. They make sense to me, primarily because I didn't start 3D mathematics as a series of rotational vectors. I learned about rotation by manipulating the basis vector first, then learned euler math. I went quaternion -> euler, not euler -> quaternion like most.

So it make sense, but it's still a pain in the ass to compute.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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My fiancee had never seen it, but she loves all things space and space exploration. We watched it last week and she was fucking enthralled.

When it released, here in Houston, it was the biggest movie in the world it seems. It always surprises me that so many people have never seen it, because it was the biggest blockbuster ever for me at the time. Granted, that's owing to the perspective, I was a kid, and was around the filming of the movie. So my reaction to the movie comes from actual NASA employees haha.

But still, hands down the most memorable movie of my youth.
 

Khanimus

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Oct 25, 2017
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When it released, here in Houston, it was the biggest movie in the world it seems. It always surprises me that so many people have never seen it, because it was the biggest blockbuster ever for me at the time. Granted, that's owing to the perspective, I was a kid, and was around the filming of the movie. So my reaction to the movie comes from actual NASA employees haha.

But still, hands down the most memorable movie of my youth.
I can think of four different classes in school where my teachers found an excuse to play this movie lol

I had seen it before, but it just kept coming up.

The funniest was in CALM in high school. We were focused on Leadership/management skills, and we watched this, and in-contrast, School of Rock. Like... fucking what?
 

AAION

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Dec 28, 2018
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There's an Apollo 13 escape room in Houston were they separate you into mission control and astronaut groups to recreate this event. I've always wanted to go, but the recommended group is fairly large and apparently it's pretty hard.
 

Raccoon

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May 31, 2019
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I learned quaternions from books backwards, I arrived at quaternions. They make sense to me, primarily because I didn't start 3D mathematics as a series of rotational vectors. I learned about rotation by manipulating the basis vector first, then learned euler math. I went quaternion -> euler, not euler -> quaternion like most.

So it make sense, but it's still a pain in the ass to compute.
I envy your genius. Meanwhile, my dumb 17 year old ass thought I could manipulate quaternion values directly in Blender, like I could just figure out the pattern. Maybe I thought it was just a different form of rotational vectors?? I dunno, somehow I was even dumber than I am now.

Anyway, on topic, the genius of NASA engineers is incredible. I've always loved aerospace. In high school I did an outreach program, got to see LRC and everything. It was neat, but what I really learned was respect for scientists and engineers.
 

Jintor

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Oct 25, 2017
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A bit earlier in the space flight story but the amazing story of the first few rocket missions all the way up to the actual moon landing are truly astounding. the BBC's 13 MInutes to the Moon podcast and Apollo by Murray and Bly are incredible reads (I want a hard copy so bad)
 
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Deleted member 12790

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I envy your genius. Meanwhile, my dumb 17 year old ass thought I could manipulate quaternion values directly in Blender, like I could just figure out the pattern. Maybe I thought it was just a different form of rotational vectors?? I dunno, somehow I was even dumber than I am now.

Anyway, on topic, the genius of NASA engineers is incredible. I've always loved aerospace. In high school I did an outreach program, got to see LRC and everything. It was neat, but what I really learned was respect for scientists and engineers.

Its not genius, I'm no genius. The people at mission control were geniuses. I honestly think it's more a matter of learning stuff early. I think anybody can do this math if they're exposed to it early enough and well enough. Like I very much believe there's a critical age where one's ability to learn new math is significantly diminished. I've spent my entire life struggling to get around the things I didn't take time to learn as a kid.
 

Coyote Starrk

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Oct 30, 2017
52,909
I love Apollo 13, one of my favorite movies. "Lost Moon" is the book that cover's Lovell's recollection of the events and is the source material for the movie, and its worth a read if you are a fan. It is I think the best real world sci fi story. The problems they overcame in the moment with in essence the computational power of an old graphing calculator strain my ability to believe, yet it really happened.



As a side note, Lovell performed those calculations himself while tumbling through space in a ship that had suffered an explosion and was leaking fuel and oxygen, and had ground control check the figures- which were accurate.

Maybe the most 'right stuff' moment of spaceflight outside of Neil Armstrong saving Gemini 8 from an uncontrolled roll due to OAMS failure while outside of communication range.
Yeah the fact that Lovell was able to all of that with perfect accuracy under those circumstances always blows my mind. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Lovell hadn't been on that flight. Would they have still gotten back?
 
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Deleted member 12790

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There's an Apollo 13 escape room in Houston were they separate you into mission control and astronaut groups to recreate this event. I've always wanted to go, but the recommended group is fairly large and apparently it's pretty hard.

When I took classes there, they had a simulator for the Space Shuttle that they let us use, which was a recreation of the cockpit on hydraulics with at the time cutting edge 3D graphics. They invited us to try and land and of course nobody could do it because all the switches actually did things.

I wonder if they still have something like that there now that the shuttles are retired.
 

captive

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Oct 25, 2017
16,989
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I remember my teachers would always find a way to play October Sky and Gattica. I would have preferred to have watched Apollo 13 tbh lol.
Did we go to the same school? Lol

RE your Fortran comment. I did a project for a major airline and they still use an old mainframe like OS3300 or something. I sent an email on it to my dad but can't find it right now. Basically the guy that runs it has worked at the airline for longer than I've been alive. And this mainframe controls the information for flights.
 

Nigel Tufnel

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Mar 5, 2019
3,146
Yeah the fact that Lovell was able to all of that with perfect accuracy under those circumstances always blows my mind. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Lovell hadn't been on that flight. Would they have still gotten back?
There were a lot of exceptional people in the space program.

As pointed out already, even if Lovell hadn't gotten it right, ground control was up to the task. They're all heroes.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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This scene is so badass (of course it's dramatized, but IDK) because he's totally right:



Fully believe the recovery of Apollo 13 is mankind's greatest accomplishment. Going to the moon is amazing. Blowing up going to the moon and still coming home safely is much more so.
 

Nigel Tufnel

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When I took classes there, they had a simulator for the Space Shuttle that they let us use, which was a recreation of the cockpit on hydraulics with at the time cutting edge 3D graphics. They invited us to try and land and of course nobody could do it because all the switches actually did things.

I wonder if they still have something like that there now that the shuttles are retired.
They Stennis Space Center in Mississippi is where the Saturn V rockets were manufactured and tested. They have a shuttle simulator very similar to what you describe that they let visitors take a crack at, though I when I was there 15ish years ago I believe it had some assistance built in to make it a little more forgiving.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Did we go to the same school? Lol

RE your Fortran comment. I did a project for a major airline and they still use an old mainframe like OS3300 or something. I sent an email on it to my dad but can't find it right now. Basically the guy that runs it has worked at the airline for longer than I've been alive. And this mainframe controls the information for flights.

The reason my mentor told me they maintained FORTRAN code is that it's bug free. These parts are apparently so mission critical that they are terrified of replacing them and introducing new bugs that could cascade and cause enormous problems. When I was in highschool my mentor actually recommended to me I learn FORTRAN because apparently NASA pays biiiiiig bucks for FORTRAN programmers due to their scarcity, but I never did.
 

Pickman

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Nov 20, 2017
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It may seem kinda dry reading but the Apollo 13 transcripts are pretty amazing. One of my favorite stories from it is when the guys weren't allowed to do any waste dumps as it could mess up their trajectory, so they improvised the old coke bottle on the highway routine.

CAPCOM Aquarius, Houston. Over.
SC Go ahead, Houston.
CAPCOM Fred, just wanted to let you know in advance t hat we're coming up on the red line C02 value for the secondary canister and we expect to get there something like a half hour at which time we'll be asking you to switch over to the Command Module canisters. I have the rest of that procedure ready and I just wanted to warn you a little bit in advance.
SC Okay. And I've got a question for you, Joe.
CAP COM Go ahead.
SC Okay. The - I need to find out if the
condensing container that we were going to use to strain some
water in on the lunar surface now is this container also completely air tight? Okay to use it to (GARBLE)
CAPCOM Fred, I didn't copy what you wanted to use
it for. Over.
SC Okay, how do you read now, Joe.
CAPCOM Oh, that's much better. Go ahead.
SC Okay, I was just going to say we say we haven't had an overboard waste water duct since clear back around the other side of the moon - about this time we're running out of the bags we've got onboard here.
CAPCOM Okay - I'm - I'm stupid; I'm not quite
quite sure what you are getting at.
AQUARIUS Okay, Joe, we need some place to put the urine.
CAPCOM Okay, it sounds to me as if the suggested r eceptacle is perfectly satisfactory; do you think you can use it in its present configuration?
AQUARIUS Oh yeah, we got all the innerconnects mocked up we need, but I wasn't sure if that gadget was devised soley with the 1-6th g environment in mind, and whether it might leak,
now in zero g.
CAPCOM I'll have them verify that, but off the
top of my head, I'm sure its going to be alright.
We'll check it Fred.
AQUARIUS Okay.

Here's the transcripts if anyone wants to give it a read.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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It may seem kinda dry reading but the Apollo 13 transcripts are pretty amazing. One of my favorite stories from it is when the guys weren't allowed to do any waste dumps as it could mess up their trajectory, so they improvised the old coke bottle on the highway routine.

CAPCOM Aquarius, Houston. Over.
SC Go ahead, Houston.
CAPCOM Fred, just wanted to let you know in advance t hat we're coming up on the red line C02 value for the secondary canister and we expect to get there something like a half hour at which time we'll be asking you to switch over to the Command Module canisters. I have the rest of that procedure ready and I just wanted to warn you a little bit in advance.
SC Okay. And I've got a question for you, Joe.
CAP COM Go ahead.
SC Okay. The - I need to find out if the
condensing container that we were going to use to strain some
water in on the lunar surface now is this container also completely air tight? Okay to use it to (GARBLE)
CAPCOM Fred, I didn't copy what you wanted to use
it for. Over.
SC Okay, how do you read now, Joe.
CAPCOM Oh, that's much better. Go ahead.
SC Okay, I was just going to say we say we haven't had an overboard waste water duct since clear back around the other side of the moon - about this time we're running out of the bags we've got onboard here.
CAPCOM Okay - I'm - I'm stupid; I'm not quite
quite sure what you are getting at.
AQUARIUS Okay, Joe, we need some place to put the urine.
CAPCOM Okay, it sounds to me as if the suggested r eceptacle is perfectly satisfactory; do you think you can use it in its present configuration?
AQUARIUS Oh yeah, we got all the innerconnects mocked up we need, but I wasn't sure if that gadget was devised soley with the 1-6th g environment in mind, and whether it might leak,
now in zero g.
CAPCOM I'll have them verify that, but off the
top of my head, I'm sure its going to be alright.
We'll check it Fred.
AQUARIUS Okay.

Here's the transcripts if anyone wants to give it a read.

I love the break down of decorum for a moment that lets the humanity shine through. Let's you know they were actually real, normal people, who just so happened to be the best in the world at what they did. "Ok, I'm stupid." That's great stuff right there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Lovell never getting to land on the moon is such a bummer considering everything he did and achieved in the Apollo and Gemini missions.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
Its not genius, I'm no genius. The people at mission control were geniuses. I honestly think it's more a matter of learning stuff early. I think anybody can do this math if they're exposed to it early enough and well enough. Like I very much believe there's a critical age where one's ability to learn new math is significantly diminished. I've spent my entire life struggling to get around the things I didn't take time to learn as a kid.
Neuroplasticity-heightening drugs are my greatest sci-fi fantasy.

Also, add me to the pile of people who at one point thought learning FORTRAN or COBOL was the easy route to a cushy secure job. It very well might be, but I haven't bothered learning any old programming languages, and I probably won't. Though I do know some very simple BASIC syntax
 

bionic77

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Oct 25, 2017
30,888
I love how they give the credit to the scientists and engineers in that movie. It is really well done.

We only seem to remember those people when they have to save our ass.