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Agree! But guilty as charged, haha. It's part of the whole culture at this point, I don't see that much of a harm.
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The Rise of Toxic Fandom: Why people are ruining the Pop Culture they love
- Thread starter ZattMurdock
- Start date
Agree! But guilty as charged, haha. It's part of the whole culture at this point, I don't see that much of a harm.
It leads to people caring more than they should about what you yourself enjoy. You like a movie I think is total ass more than a movie I love? Then I hate you!
Oh, if this is your concern, I can assure you that I am worried about the kind of extremisms which are nurtured by toxic online communities. But amongst theses, pop culture fanatism is in my personal experience one of the least nefarious and, this is the important point, one of the most avoidable.
I also think that some things can be done about the toxicity of online communities : avoid them, or learn critical thinking, epistemology, classical wisdom... These tools help to put things in perspective and to preserve one's mental health if one chose to expose themselves to the swirling pool of wonders and horrors of the internet.
But my main point was to stress the similarily of the topic with a classic problematic of literary criticism. To be blunt, I am interested in discussing the theory of the death of the author, not the authoritarian and hubristic dream of social control on the internet.
Fandoms being toxic is nothing new. Theater's, acting troupes and even famous actors sometimes had gangs, literally in some cases, of over zealous fans who would go to rival theaters or to shows with major rivals and start actual riots and trash the entire place and even kick the shit out of people including other fans.
DC fans on Twitter tend to get pretty nasty. I've seen a shit ton of people I follow complain about the amount of harassment they get about it. People need to really chill the fuck out about this Marvel VS DC stuff.
Shit, I feel like I live in a bubble now. I had no idea that people were freaking out over Sonequa Martin-Green in Star Trek.
Also, ghost-bros? Really? That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If anyone ever asks me if I'm a fucking ghost-bro, he's getting punched in the face on sheer principle.
Also, ghost-bros? Really? That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If anyone ever asks me if I'm a fucking ghost-bro, he's getting punched in the face on sheer principle.
Ah yeah, good memories. I was laughed off gaming forums in 2006 when I made similar remarks about the toxic gatekeeping that bubbled up during the Wii craze and how it would ultimately push many to radical fringes.
Not so sure about if the cynical approach like here showcased is so much better.
Or maybe this is just another take of the old I'm better than other people mind set
Or maybe this is just another take of the old I'm better than other people mind set
Why is 'toxic' such a trendy word lately? I don't know what it actually means because it gets used in regards to everything from people thinking Souls fans are snobby to the rampant sexual harassment charges in Hollywood.
Anyways, in general I just leave people to like what they like and am happy that people are participating in their favorite franchises, and I don't get too deep into any fanbase. However I can be sympathetic to some degree, because fans have the potential to influence creators. For example, fans of Adventure Time wanted lore-based episodes and big narratives. That's the opposite of what I enjoy about the show, but that's okay... until the creators started listening to the fans, and now the show is basically ruined. That's pretty disappointing since I loved it so much. So I can understand why fandoms would feel protective of what they love about a franchise. Of course, no matter how you feel about the direction of a franchise, you still have to be respectful to other people and realize that it's not all about you.
Anyways, in general I just leave people to like what they like and am happy that people are participating in their favorite franchises, and I don't get too deep into any fanbase. However I can be sympathetic to some degree, because fans have the potential to influence creators. For example, fans of Adventure Time wanted lore-based episodes and big narratives. That's the opposite of what I enjoy about the show, but that's okay... until the creators started listening to the fans, and now the show is basically ruined. That's pretty disappointing since I loved it so much. So I can understand why fandoms would feel protective of what they love about a franchise. Of course, no matter how you feel about the direction of a franchise, you still have to be respectful to other people and realize that it's not all about you.
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Great thread. I too have noticed this as an increasing problem over the past 10 or so years and it really does get to the point where it can make you fall out of love with things because of how vile and hateful people can be. And while it is true, as many have said in this thread, that this type of negativity has always existed in all types of fandom, I definitely think it has gotten worse in the past decade.
I think the internet has obviously been the thing that has fed fuel to this hateful/negative fire, and social media only helped nourish it. Obviously the internet (but more recently social media) has made it even easier for any person, regardless of technical prowess, to jump into fandoms and put their opinion out there. This also made it easier for people who might have felt secluded, lonely, or out of the loop to be able to more easily connect to likeminded individuals. This (as I see so often today) eventually leads to the creation of tiny little echo chamber bubbles where people share their ideas, regardless of how nutty or radical they may be, discover that others share similar feelings and start to use this as confirmation bias that their thought, feeling, or idea actually has merit to it, further fueling their fire.
I think a lot of it is psychology based as well. Humans are inherently competitive in nature, and the ability to debate on the internet fuels that competitive drive to win. Which is exactly why an actual civilized, intellegent discussion is so rare these days as it it far easier and satisfying to our naturally copetitive (and angry) tendencies to jump into a flame war instead. These behaviors make people feel good inside and they fail to realize (or even care) the effect that such an interaction has on the person sitting behind the other side of the text.
Of course, all of the above is only made easier by the anonymity allowed on the internet. It is so easy for people to sit behind a monitor and keyboard and feed their low self esteem by trashing other people, places, things and ideas. To feel as though you are achieving vengeance for all those who made you feel like an outcast or loaner, judged you on your looks, your interests, your views. In 95% of the situations, people would never act like or say the things they say without their monitor as a shield. But with it, scratching the human itches are far to easy and become an outlet for someone's emotions in their real life.
I truely feel a lot of the negativity in fandom you see online is a direct result of struggles in a persons life; low self esteem; anger or hatred that is alleviated but directing it towards others online. I think the above is so rampant in society today and many don't even realize they are even doing it.
And all of the above influences the new generation of internet users joining the web every day, seeing this negative/hateful/delinquent behavior and believing acting in that way is appropriate, acceptable and/or permitted. The worst part is, because this behavior is starting so early on in their internet life, it is probably not something that is going away any time soon. I hate to be so negative about it, but when you consider everything I said above, it really starts to make sense and is not very shocking at all.
I think the internet has obviously been the thing that has fed fuel to this hateful/negative fire, and social media only helped nourish it. Obviously the internet (but more recently social media) has made it even easier for any person, regardless of technical prowess, to jump into fandoms and put their opinion out there. This also made it easier for people who might have felt secluded, lonely, or out of the loop to be able to more easily connect to likeminded individuals. This (as I see so often today) eventually leads to the creation of tiny little echo chamber bubbles where people share their ideas, regardless of how nutty or radical they may be, discover that others share similar feelings and start to use this as confirmation bias that their thought, feeling, or idea actually has merit to it, further fueling their fire.
I think a lot of it is psychology based as well. Humans are inherently competitive in nature, and the ability to debate on the internet fuels that competitive drive to win. Which is exactly why an actual civilized, intellegent discussion is so rare these days as it it far easier and satisfying to our naturally copetitive (and angry) tendencies to jump into a flame war instead. These behaviors make people feel good inside and they fail to realize (or even care) the effect that such an interaction has on the person sitting behind the other side of the text.
Of course, all of the above is only made easier by the anonymity allowed on the internet. It is so easy for people to sit behind a monitor and keyboard and feed their low self esteem by trashing other people, places, things and ideas. To feel as though you are achieving vengeance for all those who made you feel like an outcast or loaner, judged you on your looks, your interests, your views. In 95% of the situations, people would never act like or say the things they say without their monitor as a shield. But with it, scratching the human itches are far to easy and become an outlet for someone's emotions in their real life.
I truely feel a lot of the negativity in fandom you see online is a direct result of struggles in a persons life; low self esteem; anger or hatred that is alleviated but directing it towards others online. I think the above is so rampant in society today and many don't even realize they are even doing it.
And all of the above influences the new generation of internet users joining the web every day, seeing this negative/hateful/delinquent behavior and believing acting in that way is appropriate, acceptable and/or permitted. The worst part is, because this behavior is starting so early on in their internet life, it is probably not something that is going away any time soon. I hate to be so negative about it, but when you consider everything I said above, it really starts to make sense and is not very shocking at all.
They don't love the Pop culture, they just want it for themselves.
It has only ever been about themselves.
It has only ever been about themselves.
Hmmm.
Was the backlash for Discovery and Cursed child ever the same level as Ghostbusters 2016?
Maybe it was because the sites i frequent, but in general i saw people pretty open and accepting about Micheal in Discovery and Black Hermione in Cursed Child, i don't think either of these choices made even half the ripple as Ghostbusters 2016.
I think that article opening up with a misogynistic slant rubs me the wrong way, don't get me wrong please, the whole bit about "fake geek girls" and nerd gatekeeping is absolutely true and it's horribly toxic and harmful, but it just feels wrong to pin fandom toxicity exclusively on men and mysoginistic fans who, while a very real problem, are far from the only problem.
SU fans harrasing a girl into attempted suicide and harrassing a staff member of the show into quitting were both female spear headed acts of toxicity, An undertale fan giving an artist a needle filled cookie was also a girl, death threats over Dream Daddy fanart, all had women responsible.
If the problem of toxicity fandoms is to be adressed we need to adress it fully. I understand that as a Gaming primary forum it's easy to instantly think of years of toxic masculinity being the problem, but outside of gaming that's not exclusively the case.
Was the backlash for Discovery and Cursed child ever the same level as Ghostbusters 2016?
Maybe it was because the sites i frequent, but in general i saw people pretty open and accepting about Micheal in Discovery and Black Hermione in Cursed Child, i don't think either of these choices made even half the ripple as Ghostbusters 2016.
I think that article opening up with a misogynistic slant rubs me the wrong way, don't get me wrong please, the whole bit about "fake geek girls" and nerd gatekeeping is absolutely true and it's horribly toxic and harmful, but it just feels wrong to pin fandom toxicity exclusively on men and mysoginistic fans who, while a very real problem, are far from the only problem.
SU fans harrasing a girl into attempted suicide and harrassing a staff member of the show into quitting were both female spear headed acts of toxicity, An undertale fan giving an artist a needle filled cookie was also a girl, death threats over Dream Daddy fanart, all had women responsible.
If the problem of toxicity fandoms is to be adressed we need to adress it fully. I understand that as a Gaming primary forum it's easy to instantly think of years of toxic masculinity being the problem, but outside of gaming that's not exclusively the case.
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I kinda take issue with the article because the problem started not when women suddenly decided to join Fandom but when LiveJournal collapsed. Women have been in Fandom since Star Trek. We've always been here we just generally stuck to women only areas.
I like to call my self a fanthropologist. I've seen it all. The rise of Twitter effectively ended the 'keep it secret keep it safe' part of Fandom as people had instant access to creators and actors and I fucking hate it.
I have no idea how to solve it.
I like to call my self a fanthropologist. I've seen it all. The rise of Twitter effectively ended the 'keep it secret keep it safe' part of Fandom as people had instant access to creators and actors and I fucking hate it.
I have no idea how to solve it.
The only demographic that ruins fandoms are the elitists. Blaming women or kids or whatever is shifting the blame.
Definitely think there is a correlation. But it might be deeper than even that. I think... even Dorothy Thompson may have hit the core of this back in the 40's, with her peice "Who goes Nazi".... That its not a matter of race, or raising, or class, but of character. Going farther than that, I feel this actually directly intersects with Tim Fields assessment of the character/antisocial personality disorders behind "The serial Bully" https://bullyonline.org/index.php/bullies/5-serial-bully which, before the rise of the internet as we have it today, this was mainly focused on serial bullies in the work place, which mainly focused on the far end of the spectrum, sociopaths and the destruction they cause.... While the sociopath may be an exciting and attention hogging aspect.... I feel the modern internet is a perfect breeding and tooth cutting ground for the less unstoppable evil aspects on the list, like the 'wannabes'. And this is where we get these toxic fanbases from.
The original website http://bullyonline.org/old/workbully/npd.htm Went into detail of the different aspects like the sociopath, the guru, and the wannabe, but those links appear dead.
The new website http://bullyonline.org/index.php/bullies/5-serial-bully
I havent found the different 'types', they may have simply grouped them altogether. But regaurdless, start going down the list and you start recognizing aspects of behavior you have seen from all walks. From comic fanbases, to the gop, to gamergate, up to forums including this one.
I feel this explains why there is such a huge crossover on the "venn diagram" you can easily picture in your mind from toxic comic/game/show fanbases to hate movements, because the behaviors are so consistent with the underlying character/personality disorder Fields laid out.
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It's been that way forever - football fandom for example (the proper English football and that funny thing they do in the USA) - but the internet has amplified it massively.
If you collect anything nowadays you'll always see people with better collections and always have the ability, within a few clicks, to get more of whatever it is you collect. Back in 'the day' if you collected, for example, Star Wars figures you had to travel to the shop without any tip-off that a new batch had arrived to hopefully pick up the one/s that you needed. Collectors got out as much as they put in back then, not financially so much as the effort of hunting for the pieces you needed. It was the thrill of the chase and the catch that made it so exciting. If you knew other fans back then it was face-to-face and a general 'consensus' could never be reached because amongst four or five people you'd find four or five opinions. With the internet fan groups coagulate and grow and the pier pressure of agreeing to a consensus, or to have the latest collectable or the biggest collection or be the most vocal defender drives people to ridiculous lengths. It's a need to constantly prove to others (and maybe yourself) how big a fan you are of something that I notice most in internet posts and a lot of that is done by simply attacking whatever product/person/brand that you/your peers see as being 'the enemy'. I'm older than the internet - by a fair chunk of time - and it seems alien to me to be emotionally invested in a brand to the point of allowing yourself to be financially exploited by it. It's something I don't think I'll ever understand but something I see a lot of.
If you collect anything nowadays you'll always see people with better collections and always have the ability, within a few clicks, to get more of whatever it is you collect. Back in 'the day' if you collected, for example, Star Wars figures you had to travel to the shop without any tip-off that a new batch had arrived to hopefully pick up the one/s that you needed. Collectors got out as much as they put in back then, not financially so much as the effort of hunting for the pieces you needed. It was the thrill of the chase and the catch that made it so exciting. If you knew other fans back then it was face-to-face and a general 'consensus' could never be reached because amongst four or five people you'd find four or five opinions. With the internet fan groups coagulate and grow and the pier pressure of agreeing to a consensus, or to have the latest collectable or the biggest collection or be the most vocal defender drives people to ridiculous lengths. It's a need to constantly prove to others (and maybe yourself) how big a fan you are of something that I notice most in internet posts and a lot of that is done by simply attacking whatever product/person/brand that you/your peers see as being 'the enemy'. I'm older than the internet - by a fair chunk of time - and it seems alien to me to be emotionally invested in a brand to the point of allowing yourself to be financially exploited by it. It's something I don't think I'll ever understand but something I see a lot of.
Ok that is indeed interesting.
Thank you for providing more information with your links for me to read and gain even more in depth knowledge on this topic.
I mean this in the sincerest way possible, and know how even sincerity on the internet and in text form can be construed or misinterpreted as sarcasm.
Knowledge is power. Apparently upon the realization of how little I actually know and my endless desire to remedy said situation (Which appears to be some manner of mental perpetual motion machine, as I never seem to make any progress towards an end) I have accumulated a vast repository of information from minds across the world (Thanks internet)... most of which is useless most of the time. Or I cant find anymore when I do need it. But hey, sometimes it really comes in handy.
The real hard work comes with the question, what the heck do we do with the knowledge now that we have it?
That's the conundrum isn't it. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know. I love the internet to satiate that thirst of knowledge
Also the application of knowledge for any substantial positive changes should always be the key. However like you said, knowledge is power, and there's just too many people wielding it in ways to encourage hate, negativity, and evil.
I think the source article is bang on when it mentions that fandom is very much a competitive thing for many people, and in the internet age it's not enough to say you enjoy X or Y, you need to quantify it in a bigger or more unique way to stand out from everyone else in a world where everyone is constantly scrolling through feeds of opinions on every possible subject matter.
There seems to be an unspoken entitlement from when you stop identifying as 'a person who likes x' and become 'a fan of x', with a fan being some quantifiable part of the thing itself, with the expectation to prove your level of devotion to your fellow fans. You're no longer someone who watched Ghostbusters and liked it, you are a Ghostbusters Fan, you have it as part of your identity which makes you want to uphold the version of it, the version where you quoted the film to your friends at school near-constantly, you bought the merch, went to cons dressed as the marshsmellow man and shit.
Being part of a group that spends a big chunk of their time doing stuff related to their fandom, whether it's talking about it on forums, making elaborate costumes to dress up like them, buying a bunch of merch etc., has a tendency to mess up someone's perspective and mute common sense, which is further exacerbated by sites like Reddit and Twitter allowing people to totally shut off any other influences if they choose and just live exist in an echo chamber where you never have any objective or external input. Then before you know it you hear that, gasp, not only is there a reboot coming out but the people playing the main characters aren't even the same gender as the main characters! It's almost like they don't just want to make the exact same film all over again! but the films were so good, what the fuck? I'll show them *fires up Twitter*. That's grossly oversimplified but you (hopefully) get what I mean.
It is quite telling that all the examples of toxic fandom mentioned in the article seem to be examples where the toxicity is specifically targeted towards women being cast in roles as well, which is another layer in this sundae of bullshit. All members of fandoms can really do is keep on doing what has been progressively improving over the years - report aggressive or abusive behaviour, try and nip it in the bud with fair but firm moderation and policing, and just try to lead by example.
And, you know, try to stop hating over 50% of the population for literally no reason.
There seems to be an unspoken entitlement from when you stop identifying as 'a person who likes x' and become 'a fan of x', with a fan being some quantifiable part of the thing itself, with the expectation to prove your level of devotion to your fellow fans. You're no longer someone who watched Ghostbusters and liked it, you are a Ghostbusters Fan, you have it as part of your identity which makes you want to uphold the version of it, the version where you quoted the film to your friends at school near-constantly, you bought the merch, went to cons dressed as the marshsmellow man and shit.
Being part of a group that spends a big chunk of their time doing stuff related to their fandom, whether it's talking about it on forums, making elaborate costumes to dress up like them, buying a bunch of merch etc., has a tendency to mess up someone's perspective and mute common sense, which is further exacerbated by sites like Reddit and Twitter allowing people to totally shut off any other influences if they choose and just live exist in an echo chamber where you never have any objective or external input. Then before you know it you hear that, gasp, not only is there a reboot coming out but the people playing the main characters aren't even the same gender as the main characters! It's almost like they don't just want to make the exact same film all over again! but the films were so good, what the fuck? I'll show them *fires up Twitter*. That's grossly oversimplified but you (hopefully) get what I mean.
It is quite telling that all the examples of toxic fandom mentioned in the article seem to be examples where the toxicity is specifically targeted towards women being cast in roles as well, which is another layer in this sundae of bullshit. All members of fandoms can really do is keep on doing what has been progressively improving over the years - report aggressive or abusive behaviour, try and nip it in the bud with fair but firm moderation and policing, and just try to lead by example.
And, you know, try to stop hating over 50% of the population for literally no reason.
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More than one year has passed, and unfortunately I don't think things got better, and a lot of the shit I said on the OP I'm witnessing right here on Era. It saddens me, but maybe to keep bringing this subject up might help us to keep ourselves in check. Here's some new articles on the same subject that were posted this year:
Source: http://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/why-does-the-dceu-have-such-a-toxic-fanbase-.php
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-here-are-the-numbers/?utm_term=.4a29aa8d83f3
Source: https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-washington-posts-analysis-of-star-wars-toxic-fandom-1828856645
There's also an excellent podcast with the Slashfilm crew about the subject, posted in the middle of the year:
Source: http://www.pajiba.com/film_reviews/why-does-the-dceu-have-such-a-toxic-fanbase-.php
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-here-are-the-numbers/?utm_term=.4a29aa8d83f3
Source: https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-washington-posts-analysis-of-star-wars-toxic-fandom-1828856645
There's also an excellent podcast with the Slashfilm crew about the subject, posted in the middle of the year:
Basically. They just wait for talking heads on YouTube to give them the script then regurgitate it whenever they need to shit up a conversation. They're sad, lonely people who have thrown their entire identity into the stuff they buy.
I've mostly been on the sidelines, but I wonder if the Transformers fandom is as toxic? I say this because there's always been female Transformers, and you can't really put a race on the robots themselves. Maybe the voice actors giving the bots different accents, but beyond that, I think it's mostly just fandom bitching at the Michael Bay films.
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I honestly don't even think it's always conscious. The tribalism runs so deep that they actually buy into their own persecution complex and they legitimately believe that there's a bias against the products they love. I imagine people like that eventually seeing themselves like the "are we the baddies" gif:
I'm happy that creators like Rick and Morty's Justin Roiland are speaking up against this kind of behavior, but I don't think it's up for the creators to keep the fans in check. It's mostly on us. If you are a Star Wars fan, call out those that are assholes consciously or not. Same goes for DCEU fans, Marvel fans, etc..
For what it's worth, Lindsay Ellis thinks that the Transformers fandom is one of the least toxic fandoms out there:
I'm happy that creators like Rick and Morty's Justin Roiland are speaking up against this kind of behavior, but I don't think it's up for the creators to keep the fans in check. It's mostly on us. If you are a Star Wars fan, call out those that are assholes consciously or not. Same goes for DCEU fans, Marvel fans, etc..
For what it's worth, Lindsay Ellis thinks that the Transformers fandom is one of the least toxic fandoms out there:
To be clear, female Transformers weren't introduced (in animation at least) until Arcee in the 80's movie, and it's been an uphill battle for a long time to get more than one or two female characters in any series. The way Arcee was initially handled in the IDW comics was widely considered a huge mistake, but the use of female Transformers has improved considerably in the comics since then.
The Transformers fanbase did have people who argued that it makes no sense for there to be female Transformers because they're robots (but all the male-coded ones are A-OK), but I feel like that stage of the fandom has largely been left behind.
I thought this was new and the first post in the thread gave me so much hope and now I am crushed again.
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Yeah I feel bad for old past me being so hopeful. But that only makes punished present me feel even more strongly on how fucking important this thread is, and how I'll annoy the fuck out of people shrugging it off shit like that here on Era by making this thread actually important so maybe things change for the better eventually.
I'll be the annoying guy calling out the toxic behavior. I don't care if that gives me a bad rep. Eventually more people will stand up with us. I also think it's important to remind those that engage in toxic behavior that their beloved fandoms would get bigger if they didn't act like unwelcoming assholes. This will be a safe space of that crap.
Yeah, the female Transformers thing was something I suspected could have been something that would cause "controversy" within the fandom, but as someone who grew up with G1 then going to Beast Wars (which had 2 female Transformers) and seeing more female characters in the new recent series, I figured things were at least getting better with female representation.
I think I will dive back into Transformers fandom now that Star Wars has degraded to a mess. I largely abandoned Transformers due to the Michael Bay movies.
I think I will dive back into Transformers fandom now that Star Wars has degraded to a mess. I largely abandoned Transformers due to the Michael Bay movies.
All fandoms are toxic, males using proxies to satisfy their competitive urges are toxic. Peeps should just get a competitive hobby instead of bringing that shit to places where it poisons social dynamics.
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If all fandoms are toxic then it's our responsibility to call out toxic behavior when we see it. Conforming that "both sides" or "all sides" are toxic is irresponsible.
I don't buy into the "all sides" theory, some fandoms are definitely more toxic than others, but even if I did buy it, I'm all for us to call out toxic behavior whenever we see it, and that's something I'm always trying to do. I hope more people do it, eventually.
I'm still hopeful that Era can start to set the example of what fandoms should be.
Not my responsibility. Everyone, including you, have turned something that was about the enjoyment of the self and have externalize it and tied your identity with it in opposition to others. All fandoms are toxic, all nerd/geek gatekeepers are ridiculous unaware of themselves. You wage internet wars in favor of your favorite piece of fandom, against or as part of the toxicity that inhabits it, while these companies laugh all the way to the bank fueled by the self inflicted negative behavior of the participants.
I'm just going to do me. Stop being a mark for this shit, you can have it.
Regarding Transformers, as a casual fan, I wonder if the canon has just been fucked around with so much that expectations have bottomed out.
Fandoms are a symptom of the increasing isolation of modern society. Traditional community bonds are broken and instead people cling to virtual universes to create a sense of identity.
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If anything, Bumblebee is the first time since before watching Transformers 1 that I'm legit interested on watching a Transformers film. I'll be watching that tomorrow, and that will mark the first time since the first film that I'm going to see it on theaters. I haven't even watched Bay's Transformers latest joint.
I don't think the fucked with the canon. They just have different universe/different takes each with their own canon.
Nothing you can do. The only solution is for creators to stop interacting with the fans for once. A lots of them seen to like the attention but they quickly realize isn't worth it but by that time is already too late.
Yeah.... it was a rollercoaster of "He's back, what did I miss?!" to "Nothing." :(
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Do you really want to bring this up here? That's more than fine by me. I have even the post explaining my position ready, I talked about that on the DCEU thread. When you frame it like this, I agree with you. But there's something callled "context", and when you read the post that explained the reasons why Aquaman is better than the new Star Wars trilogy, you might maybe understand the train of thought that made me react so strongly:
This statement, conscious or not, reeks of sexism. What does he mean with "people on this forum"? Not just the fact that he is flat out wrong and that there's a whole new generation of Star Wars fans that absolutely love Rey and these new films, but what he truly means with "people on this forum" and that people only care about Kylo? Maybe that we are at least labeled a progressive forum that cares about empowerment in media? Who even cares about Kylo and identifies with that asshole? Rey is an extremely important character in Star Wars mythology and most of all, one of the best well crafted ones, opening the franchise to something more than being the child of a "chosen one". Also, Rey with only two films under the character's belt might enjoy something that Luke, Han and Leia did not: to become the face of the Jedi and the Star Wars franchise, a powerful role model for generations that haven't even started watching these films yet, and I extend that to Finn and Poe as well.
I stand by EVERYTHING I said yesterday regarding how toxic and with a persecution complex DCEU fans are, unfortunately even here on this forum. If what is being said here isn't enough proof for some, as an example, this:
There's also, well, this:
First of all, I'm not a hater. I didn't come up here to "hate" on Aquaman. In fact I've been very public on how much I absolutely love the film, it's my top 3 superhero film of the year.
Second, comparing Star Wars with Aquaman sounds dumb to me because well, Aquaman is an extremely dumb film that knows that it's dumb and owns it. There is some cool parallels to be made with Black Panther when it comes to the talk of "half-breed" and whatnot but it's extremely superficial, but I'm glad that it's there, regardless. Star Wars mythology runs quite deeper than Aquaman, and Viper's post does still reek of sexist nonsense to me, although it might be unconscious. Rey matters more as a character than Momoa being the king of Atlantis, same goes for Finn, Poe and even Rose when it comes to representation. I was embarrassed by the thinly sexist remarks on Star Wars new trilogy, and I still am. Big dude saves the day is cooler and better than Rey "because no one cares". GTFO with this nonsense, it's what I say. Even Wan knows that Aquaman isn't more relevant than Star Wars and Rey, why to get into a fight that you can't win and will only make you look like a sexist asshole? I mean, it's ok to have opinions and like Aquaman better than Star Wars, but can't you not look sexist while doing it?
And third and not that it matters, but I'm 37 years old. Never mind the ageist bullshit going on here, I'm glad that someone pointed this out to me so I can give you an obvious example of how incredibly toxic this fanbase is, even here. Some of you can't take criticism, even if it's made by one of your own. The tribalism runs deep here, and while it might give you a sense of camaraderie and that you are not alone, it comes at the expense of this fanbase being toxic and unwelcoming as fuck. I'd rather try to be the good example and show people that we call out bullshit like that, instead of being just "popular" with the crew.
This was the content of my post there on the DCEU thread. What followed? A lot of vitriol and people saying that I'm trying to make this about me. No, I am not. What I'm doing is showing how fucked up our own Era fandom threads are. How they will attack ANYONE, either a movie critic, a film or another user if they see it as the "opposition", the "enemy". You can like Aquaman over Star Wars all you want. But I'll not let the thinly veiled sexist bits go just because taste is subjective. That's toxic behavior, and I feel pretty good for calling that shit out, even if the price is getting attacked and "unpopular". So yeah, CONTEXT is key here.
It's worth noting that that Chris guy on Twitter is an obsessive loon who does nothing but tweet about ResetEra and then tweet at members because he can't post here. He's attacked me on Twitter because I said Ant-Man is a better film than Venom. lol