It would have also worked to have a more fleshed out Knights of Ren as the main antagonists.
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The Rise of Skywalker Review Thread: The Sheev Saga Comes to a Close [No Spoilers] (Rottenwatch: 55%; 10% below AOTC) [SEE STAFF POST]
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
Darth Plagueis? >_>
I mean, you don't have to like the prequels, but that WAS a possibility.
Or Kylo Ren achieve some kind of power up that makes him a greater threat, or another kind of weapon or have a new character entirely enter and be the new big bad. If even go one further and say you don't need a new collosal threat at all. The resistance is already working from a position of weakness, Kylo Ren is still a danger even if he was defeated before.
SW has never needed major set up to work, it worked because it was super good at manifesting its internal character conflicts as physical forces. Palpatine didn't need to come back for that.
I mean, I get why some fans wanted Plagueis, but for Snoke to be Plagueis in disguise, I don't know. It reeks of 'the Second Death Star, and now it's EVEN BIGGERER'
I really, really don't think the bolded is necessarily true. He didn't bin them at all. He followed up on them in way that bolstered the story he was trying to tell in TLJ. It was just in ways that the fans, and maybe JJ himself from the looks of it, didn't expect. Luke tossing the lightsaber away shows exactly where he is and how far his idealism has fallen. Rey's parents being nobody, and how that affects her moving forward, is a perfectly valid place to take the mystery of her heritage. I feel like if he wanted to bin them, he would have just ignored following up on them altogether.
Would that really be worse than what we got currently?
At least it wouldn't have completely invalidated ROTJ.
Hey, I would have been happier not having, basically, the entirety of TROS being what it is.
However, I don't feel like killing Snoke is somehow the cause of TROS' villain problem.
That's a legit question though. Particularly since holdo's run and Rose's thwarting of Finn's run didn't make much sense.
Personally I think the sequel trilogy would've been just fine with Rey vs. Sith remnant lead by a surviving Darth Plagueis. You could even being back Palp for the final movie and do some bullshit like Ghost Jedi vs. Zombie Sith if you wanted to and bring back everybody for a final paycheck.
Instead they chose the most convoluted way to do it and the landing doesnt work as intended.
Instead they chose the most convoluted way to do it and the landing doesnt work as intended.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there.
Watching TFA I did get the sense that there was something planned for his character, but, to each their own. Cheers.
I guess Rose's sister died in a sort of suicide attack too which might explain her motivations
This is exactly what it is but don't expect most people to understand that.
If TROS retcons TLJ then what about how TLJ threw out everything from TFA.
Disney is squarely to blame for this mess not JJ or Rian Johnson.
Wanting these movies out every 2 years did no one any favors and meant that unless you hired one director and one team of writers and stuck to them through the entire trilogy, you were never going to end up with anything but a disjointed mess.
User banned (1 week): posting major spoilers in a non-spoiler thread
What kills me, is this :
People didn't care that Rey was a nobody (so was Obiwan and he defeated Vader with experience).
They cared that she seemingly equaled the Skywalker heir in 2 hours (or 2 days).
It's a bit too fast. So their only option was to double down on her connection with Kylo. Make it her destiny to be connected to him and yes, bypass some training by getting his.
Not...
MOD EDIT: Spoiler removed
People didn't care that Rey was a nobody (so was Obiwan and he defeated Vader with experience).
They cared that she seemingly equaled the Skywalker heir in 2 hours (or 2 days).
It's a bit too fast. So their only option was to double down on her connection with Kylo. Make it her destiny to be connected to him and yes, bypass some training by getting his.
Not...
MOD EDIT: Spoiler removed
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I don't think TLJ retconned anything in TFA. It's more like it just didn't really touch on any of the mysteries like the Knights of Ren. Rey being "nothing" was more of a plot twist than throwing an idea away. Idk I don't remember much from TFA anyway.
Seeing it in a few hours.
After the Last Jedi, I have incredibly low expectations.
I'll never forget coming out of the Last Jedi after seeing it at Leicester Square. Me and 5 friends, just staring at each other, aghast at the abomination we had just witnessed.
Guess I'm an idiot because I can't see which is which.
My thoughts exactly, just a terrible decision all round with Rey. Rey is one of the things I didn't like in the first two films for the reasons you stated. But what they did in this film does nothing to fix those problems and in fact adds even more bullshit to the pile.
So fucking dumb.
To be fair(?), that spoiler has been dropped troughout the thread several times. Not defending it, allthough kill me if I ever complain about spoilers, but this isn't anything new.
Why would you need anyone else other than Kylo Ren? This is so weird to me, the dude is the Supreme Leader of the Evil Empire, a Force wunderkind and he has personal stakes in wanting to destroy the heroes, including a possible way to redemption and struggle between light/dark that connects him to the main hero. Why would we need anyone else? Just focus on him! Like, even if you didn't enjoy his previous portrayal (I, personally, think he's by far the strongest character in the ST and one of the most interesting characters in all of the movies), surely it would be better to spend more time on this character so much of this trilogy revolved around than just...conjur up a new threat basically out of nowhere? There already is one! Develop that one, please!
Why are people posting spoilers here? The title literally says no spoilers. Theres a million other threads for that. How dumb can you be?
I'm not complaining about the spoiler i don't care about spoilers honestly i can enjoy anything even being fully spoiled
I'm complain about the dumb ass twist that's unnecessary and ruins something i like
Can someone who enjoyed the movie tell us...are the knights of ren dope? That was one of the many things that annoyed me about TLJ. People are saying JJ totally said fuck you to Rian in this movie when I think it was the same situation in TLJ. Rian literally didn't advance the story at all, completely disregarded the knights of ren, killed 2 major characters, one of which we didn't get any chance to develop. I enjoyed TLJ as almost a standalone side story but as a sequel to TFA it was horrible and that's why a lot of people will have trouble with TROS. Chaos. At the end of the day I blame Kennedy and co who should have planned this out much better.
Yup! This should've been handed to one director, or Disney should've had a strict outline/vision for the trilogy. They need to hand the series over to someone else. Give it the Marvel treatment with one visionary at the helm. How do you fuck up a simple trilogy when Endgame tied together what, 18-20 films?
I look for different things depending on the series. In Star Wars, consistent themes are something I look for. That, and an abundance of lore, given that the series is supposed to be about a huge galaxy, where any number of interesting things could be presented. When the reality is that the last movie of this trilogy and a nine-movie saga is going to rehash a villain who was thought to be dead by the end of ROTJ, in a way that had no setup whatsoever, in combination with fumbling the opportunity to do great things with new characters without sacrificing older ones, then I have a problem.
None of this is satisfying. I'm not asking Star Wars to be a heavy drama, even though it can have those moments. I'm asking for it to be consistent and sensible for what it is, and it seems that even ROTS jumps the shark there. You can point the finger at any number of things: TFA not leaving any place for TLJ to go; TLJ not being creative enough to figure out a better way to go from TFA; ROTS paving over TLJ; new characters being squandered when they had potential to do more.
Whatever the case, this trilogy has been a serious case of something that is fun to eat but terrible to digest. Beautiful on the surface, but an unimaginative spectacle. It's unfortunate that this is how the saga gets closed out. What's worse is that these movies will undoubtedly retroactively affect my enjoyment of the cartoons and other supplemental material. This is the penultimate conclusion of the most recent events in what is considered canon for Star Wars. Knowing this is what everything leads up to sucks.
Also I want to add that I've been vocal about how I've come around to disliking TLJ over time. Initially I loved it and while I still recognize many great things about it, I find it to be a slog of a film with a lot of wasted time, among other things. But even though I now dislike that movie, I would have enjoyed it if this movie carried through with whatever TLJ established or was going for. I would have preferred that consistency instead of whatever the hell ROTS chose to do with itself while ignoring its predecessor.
None of this is satisfying. I'm not asking Star Wars to be a heavy drama, even though it can have those moments. I'm asking for it to be consistent and sensible for what it is, and it seems that even ROTS jumps the shark there. You can point the finger at any number of things: TFA not leaving any place for TLJ to go; TLJ not being creative enough to figure out a better way to go from TFA; ROTS paving over TLJ; new characters being squandered when they had potential to do more.
Whatever the case, this trilogy has been a serious case of something that is fun to eat but terrible to digest. Beautiful on the surface, but an unimaginative spectacle. It's unfortunate that this is how the saga gets closed out. What's worse is that these movies will undoubtedly retroactively affect my enjoyment of the cartoons and other supplemental material. This is the penultimate conclusion of the most recent events in what is considered canon for Star Wars. Knowing this is what everything leads up to sucks.
Also I want to add that I've been vocal about how I've come around to disliking TLJ over time. Initially I loved it and while I still recognize many great things about it, I find it to be a slog of a film with a lot of wasted time, among other things. But even though I now dislike that movie, I would have enjoyed it if this movie carried through with whatever TLJ established or was going for. I would have preferred that consistency instead of whatever the hell ROTS chose to do with itself while ignoring its predecessor.
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Does Rey really surpass Kylo though? Yeah she beats him but he was injured and emotionally fucked after just having killed his father. I think their fight against the royal guard guys shows how much more skilled he is than her. He took out nearly all of them by himself while you can see Rey struggling and only killed 2.
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That's a valid interpretation to an extent. Part of the issue is partially how flippant Rian is about it. Snoke calling out Kylo's mask for example is another one in that it's clear Rian thinks something from TFA is stupid and will just directly call it out as such. If I was JJ, I would probably have been low key pissed when watching TLJ. Now again, I don't blame Rian for any of it as JJ deserved it for his mystery box garbage in TFA.
Rian and JJ view Star Wars almost in a fundamentally different way, which is fine in theory. The problem is Kennedy had them following up each other.
Deep down, we all knew they just existed to sell toys like Phasma.
Agreed. I think Rians Star Wars work in isolation or as part of his own body of Star Wars work (eg his own trilogy or stand alone) could have worked great, it just didn't completely work as a direct sequel in this trilogy. Tonally, thematically and creatively, TLJ simply didn't transition consistently from TFA, and now supposedly the same is true for TRoS and TLJ.
Reminds me of the old EU cannon... Where books in the same trilogy would be written by different authors, and you'd have things like Like deciding there is no dark or light side of the force, it's all the same... Then the next book "I was being seduced by the dark side, thinking it didn't really exist! Of course there is a dark and a light side!"
Why? JJ presented Kylo as a childish Vader fanboy. Why would he be pissed if Snoke calls Kylo out on that?
I did not enjoy the film. No spoilers but I can understand why the reviews have not been flattering. Even just on a structural level it's got no time to let things breathe because it keeps racing from scene to scene to keep up an exhausting level of momentum.
Agree with everything you say here and with that in mind... No, the Knights of Ren were not dope.
Oh yeah. I don't think they're very compatible filmmakers. It's a little bit like the Justice League situation, with Snyder and Whedon, just spread out over a trilogy.
Obviously that's subjective but no I did not find them to be dope. I think almost no one would based on what's in.
The anonymous red guards in TLJ get a much better fight scene and look cooler.
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Pretty much. It's a JJ Abrams film so that was a given. The first 2/3 of the film felt like Indiana Jones by way of Star Trek Into Darkness. I wasn't annoyed by any of it like STID though.
"That is why you fail." - Yoda
Pay attention to what Finn says when explicitly told that it won't work. Sacrifice in SW has never been portrayed as "all attempts to sacrifice yourself are valid."
Luke already went to the Death Star 2 willing to die in the explosion as long as the emperor went down with him. Without his light saber in hand.
"Soon I'll be dead and you with me."
Which is much different from him throwing his lightsaber away and declaring he's a Jedi after refusing to kill his father.