It's one thing for never trumpers to give these people money but anybody else?
The fuck are people smoking??
The fuck are people smoking??
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
The Racist, Homophobic, Sexist pasts of the Lincoln Project Founders "resurface" (Note: It was always there.)
- Thread starter Hours Left
- Start date
I'm not helping to contribute to anything. Like I said, I'm not donating or supporting outside of liking the anti-trump and pro-Dem Senate ads. Which costs nothing and requires no actual time.
It's become tiresome in these threads to attempt to have an actual discussion grounded in the political reality of our two party system and how to affect long-term progress as a country. Concepts like shifting the Overton window are just blatantly ignored without counter-point for tripe straw men.
Speaking of...
Doing something as simple as watching the ads contributes to them. It is absolutely baffling how so many people don't seem to get this.
So basically you won't indulge anything but the banning of discussion of the Lincoln Project and their supporters from the forum? And only then will discussion be productive?
And I don't feel like anyone has "called me out". Plenty of counter-arguments, some unproductive stuff. But mostly good
There aren't really enough new voters to explain the change by anything other than some kind of realignment - and I don't think that these people have suddenly become good progressives or liberals. I think they're probably still conservative, but they're not voting R any more. And the thing about realignments is that they can be sticky.
Though that's not really the question at hand - it's are there enough of them to be worth targeting. And considering the gains we saw in 2018 in districts like these, the answer looks like a yes.
How it is it an opinion? Contributing to their view count on YouTube or Twitter or Facebook or wherever else gives them a greater reach through the recommendation algorithms that those social networks run on. Any views that you give to their videos helps them. Period. It's a simple fact that you can't dispute.
Of course the Lincoln project should be banned here. Random youtubers aren't even allowed to be brought up here for doing far less than these people have, but they keep getting a pass for some reason.
The Lincoln Project are just the ones smart enough to realize they had a "good thing" going with the dog-whistle racism and the Trumpet method is going to "ruin" everything for them.
I feel like legitimately every point in these threads have already been talked about ad nauseam and there was a staff post regarding their presence anyway (relegated to US poliera if notable, no threads for each ad, etc).
No one is going to miss these anyway, just lots of people talking past each other. Bit of good tidbits like PS'S re: "do we actually need them" but otherwise are we really treading new ground?
Many think they're useful for bashing Trump, many want them banned from the jump, handful don't know anything about the people behind it. Strawmans ensue and ad hominems are sure to follow.
No one is going to miss these anyway, just lots of people talking past each other. Bit of good tidbits like PS'S re: "do we actually need them" but otherwise are we really treading new ground?
Many think they're useful for bashing Trump, many want them banned from the jump, handful don't know anything about the people behind it. Strawmans ensue and ad hominems are sure to follow.
Last edited:
Was typing this out so I'll just quote you ,It certainly is wild that gaming side can ban what are just gaming personalities for shitty tweets and content, that this side can ban Joe Rogan for his interviews and tweets but these ads are from people with the actual power to make the lives of marginalized people worse .. and are somehow allowed. It's certainly a stance to have.
* edit * oh there was a mod post elsewhere regarding TLP that had those restrictions? Ok , good , much better then
They're not voting R specifically for Trump, once "honor" is restored to the office by a man with better manners they will go back to voting for Republicans. These are still all assumptions based on nothing, like, bring some stuff to the table if we're gonna 100% attribute the flip in districts to Never-Trumpers. If that is true then the numbers should be easy to find.
I never said anything about banning, but given the people and organizations we DO ban here, this seems like an incredibly hilariously misguided one to keep open for discussion given its intent and purpose. Like an organization run by a rampant racist attempting to white wash the history of the republican party by throwing trump under the bus is pretty fucking awful-especially when posters here are donating to it.
And you can call it whatever you want. I just was letting you know were not all on the same team. And a lot of people in here will tell you the same thing.
There's been some solid pieces on the topic. I like this one from Vox: https://www.vox.com/2018/11/15/18078974/trump-gop-midterms-2018-arizona-texas-never-trump
Signal boosting them could be harmful in the long run. That's what some folks don't seem to get.
Edit: And I don't just mean politically. I mean harmful to people.
Basically. There's not much discussion to be had when one ignores the lessons of history of the important of systemic change.
Of course there are real world tragedies happening every day. And fretting about tv ads aimed at Trump won't stop any of that. But it's hard to have that discussion.
Those are two completely different scenarios. YouTubers are people who need the attention to survive and whose deplatforming or ignoring of can have legitimate affect on.
The Lincoln Project is going to exist without our attention, as well all politics. Ignoring groups that don't align with our values will just let them prosper in a bubble, not eliminate. If you want to ban the Lincoln Project, you might as well as ban all Trump talk (and therefore all Political talk).
This isn't some racist streamer trying to get clicks on their Twitch channel.
This is how I feel too. We've had multiple threads on this and they just seem to be the same people arguing over and over again. Those of us who like what they're doing right now like what they're doing right now, and those who don't, well, don't. It's pretty clear at this point that nobody's opinion on them is going to change, especially since the same arguments get brought up again and again. I'm in the "if you don't like TLP, ignore the thread and move on" camp.
There are tons of things that we don't platform here that will exist whether or not we're allowed to share or talk about them. This argument falls apart instantly.
I think its worth the risk of creating a 'less openly racist' republican party to gain control of both houses in 2020.
Colin Moriarty famously stopped being a thing once he was no longer spoken of on resertera.
WHAT? No. Wtf. Having a republican party do the same shit as Trump but not be blatant about it is way worse. Trump being a fucking moron who says this shit out loud is far better than having well mannered, competent shit heads running the republican party.
Came in here to post this.
Fuck the Lincoln Project, but the infighting is still excellent for the rest of us.
There was actually a good article about the Project in the Times or the Post, but I didn't post it since Staff posts and I felt everyone had enough of TLP. But I guess was wrong.
David Duke actually ran on the Republican ticket for governor of Louisiana. This is the party that TLP supports and wants to bring back. Not sure how it's a straw man at all!
Even this article goes into Republicans voters possibly switching mainly for the aspect of Trump "defiling" the office. So if he's out we also have to assume they won't just go back to voting Republican?
Well, it's no good to just call it a day because it seems difficult. Real change often doesn't happen easily, or via polite, nuanced discourse.
Well, that's sort of the thing. They switched because Trump's politics weren't acceptable to them - but do we think the party writ large is actually going to be able to abandon Trumpian politics? Like, there's already buzz about Tucker fuckin' Carlson running in 2024.
I don't think they're good people, really. I just don't know exactly how they're going to move after Trump. Some of 'em will go back to Republicans (or even Trump himself this year), others will stay out of pure inertia or because, hey, they actually got more woke, and the rest... dunno.
The Lincoln Project isn't going to go away before election day. And stopping discussion of them on the forum isn't going to stop them from being a regular news item (their focus on making troll ads focused on the DC area guarantees that). So what's the focus on deplatforming? If you deplatform The Lincoln Party, you should deplatform Trump & the Republican Party at that point. All of which are impossible. They are a constant evil that can't be wished away by ignoring it.
Trump and the Republican party don't gain revenue when articles about them are shared.
TLP does get revenue when their videos are watched and shared.
Don't share their stuff. If someone likes them on Facebook they'll get the feed of ads from them once they go to the "good" Republicans are back message, etc.
I literally have not seen TLP be a news item outside of this forum and reddit where people are more interested in laughing at Trump than they are considering the impact boosting these people has on minorities. We want it banned because watching people ignore blatant harmful bigotry for the millionth time is exhausting and shows how little we actually factor into these so called allies decisions.
The difference is that talking about Trump on Era doesn't make him any more President than he already is. His actions and words are newsworthy and worth discussing. (Usually, that is. But I think that's a discussion for another day...)
In contrast, sharing TLP ads on this site and increasing their view count on social media directly and actively contributes to making them a greater threat in the future. This part is a huge disconnect that I don't see enough people acknowledging. I realize most people here aren't being swayed into believing Republican nonsense. I realize most people here aren't donating money to them. But so many people are either not thinking about or simply don't care that engaging with their social media content, even through a simple view of a YouTube video, helps them.
I also don't think discussion about TLP should be banned because I think there is interesting and fruitful conversation to be had that is far-reaching and applies to so much more than just Rick Wilson and his cronies. But I don't think it is a good idea for us to be sharing links to their ads or embedding them here. And I'm glad for the step that was taken to not allow new threads for each of their ads. That's a move in the right direction.
Ok cool so we should allow discussion here from any person or platform since they continue to exist regardless of whether or not theyre banned here, yeah? We cool with opening up a colin moriarty OT? We cool with opening up a republican politics OT? How about we do our version of the donald here. I mean, Trump isn't going away so might as well. /s
You can't ignore that even if its just giving these videos views, youre directly contributing to its further dissemination among the public given how youtube algorithms work. More views = more money = more influence to spread this propaganda within the public consciousness. No, banning it here wouldn't make it go away-it merely would just not contribute to that existence. Which is something were currently doing by posting this shit here every week.
Sigh. Let me assure you that I'm well informed on the history of David Duke going all the way back to LSU. The straw man is that anyone posting in this thread would "stan for" David fucking Duke in any context.
As an aside, association fallacies aren't very productive either.
But some ppl like the OP aren't ignoring it. They are speaking against it. They are trying to educate others about the real motivations of a vile PAC.
People would certainly cheer for a David Duke ad tearing into Trump. Its not like the history of these people has stopped them yet
Have you been in any of these threads and read the justifications? Ive seen multiple people say it does not matter what these people have done in the past or what they will do in the future, Trump is all that matters. So yes, I do believe that would extend to him as these people are already pretty bad
TLP could be useful if it draws moderate Republicans and whomever else that need someone with an 'R' to say "Trump's bad. Vote for this other person." If there is a thread for TLP, keep their info up-to-date there. Simply having one of their founders being outed as glorifying confederate symbolism should make a difference in how willing progressives are to share their information going forward.
I have right-leaning friends and family. Almost all of them have told me about the lincoln project and I didnt send a single video. At this point, they know what they're about and can spread the message through their conservative networks.
I absolutely believe that if David Duke put out an anti-Trump ad, there would be people on this site saying, "Well sure it's David Duke, BUT..."
Youre arguing this in a thread about the lincoln project, whose goal is very much aligned with david duke (were talking a difference of degrees). So idk why youre so taken aback by that comment. Were seeing it play out in real-time in these threads.
This. The distance between their views is small, and comprised of presentation rather than intent.
No, I know quite well who they are. Rick Wilson has a nasty history, as does Bill Kristol of Republican Voters Against Trump. And both are neocons.
But on some level, someones' internal thoughts, while important, are, for a political action group like they are running, arguably not as immediately important as their actions are. And their actions right now support everything we Democrats want -- to have Biden win the presidency in November, to win the Senate back for the Democrats, to turn out the Trump supporters from Congress, to support racial justice...
Yes, because of their history we should not just take their good words at face value, but what they are doing right now is a clear positive.
Current actions matter. And currently the Lincoln Project people are not doing or saying the awful stuff they did in the past. Of course they may be thinking it, and wishing for the days to return where they could wield the influence they used to have and run awful campaigns like Rick Wilson's horrendous smear of Max Cleland in 2002, but right now they are doing the opposite of that and are actively boosting good causes like racial justice and anti-fascism, along with many Democrats.
I understand why some here want to ban them because of their past actions, but I would hope that because of the experience of the Trump Administration, their previously solid Republican base will start to question their past beliefs and not only vote Democratic once, but stick with our party. Here's hoping.
And if not, if they do turn on us in the future as they indeed well could? Well, I will be glad that hopefully few Democrats contributed to those groups. Because seriously, don't give them money. Let dissafected Republicans give them money instead.
Last edited:
David Duke would never successfully gain traction in the way TLP did for the simple reason that everybody immediately knows of Duke and his history with the Klan. The worst thing you'd see is people saying shit like "EVEN David Duke thinks Trump is an asshole". You wouldn't see the large scale signal boost that the TLP has gotten from posters on this board, or from celebrities like Mark Hamill on twitter, because Duke immediately represents what Trump already is.
You can say Rick Wilson does as well and here are the receipts, but many people are seeing this shit for the first time. Like nobody knew who Rick Wilson was before Rick Wilson was the conservative never-Trumper voice in the room. You can GUESS that a career Republican is an asshole, but if your first priority is to end this insane administration and you see these viral attack ads and tweets pulling right-wing votes away from Trump, it's understandable that you'd see that as an useful ally to that end.
It's also super important that we let it be known high and wide that Wilson and The Lincoln Project are no allies to progressive causes. I don't endorse them in any way beyond the fact that I think it is more important to prevent a second Trump term than, well, literally anything else.
You can say Rick Wilson does as well and here are the receipts, but many people are seeing this shit for the first time. Like nobody knew who Rick Wilson was before Rick Wilson was the conservative never-Trumper voice in the room. You can GUESS that a career Republican is an asshole, but if your first priority is to end this insane administration and you see these viral attack ads and tweets pulling right-wing votes away from Trump, it's understandable that you'd see that as an useful ally to that end.
It's also super important that we let it be known high and wide that Wilson and The Lincoln Project are no allies to progressive causes. I don't endorse them in any way beyond the fact that I think it is more important to prevent a second Trump term than, well, literally anything else.
They're Republicans, this is a surprise to no one.
Also, we seriously comparing the former Grand Wizard of the KKK to some moderate Republicans?
Also, we seriously comparing the former Grand Wizard of the KKK to some moderate Republicans?