Hey. So it was okay for Bernie to go on Joe Rogan right?
He only did it so he could beat Trump in the end!
He only did it so he could beat Trump in the end!
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The Racist, Homophobic, Sexist pasts of the Lincoln Project Founders "resurface" (Note: It was always there.)
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You think there isn't now? November is literally a fight for the soul of American democracy, if such a thing even still exists. The Lincoln Project is run by absolute shit people, but those stupid ads they cook up have resulted in some of the only movements toward sanity I've seen in four years in some of the Trump dupes I know. For all their garbage opinions and goals, what they make works on people who otherwise have been fully in the tank for Trump this entire time. I would never give them any money but if they want to chip away at the edges of Trump's voting bloc with propaganda ads that the Democrats are apparently incapable of making themselves, I'm not going to try and stop them.
I mean, okay.
Still, seems like if one's goal was to stop the engagement with & signal boosting of TLP... the best route to that outcome would be to actually walk that talk?
That would be much preferable to the attacking & demonizing of fellow posters in here. That palpable anger is being tragically misdirected.
You're taking things too seriously my dude, you should probably walk away.
You are the one talking about some weird purity test and "groups who hate Trump" is weird way of talking these pos ypu are missing the lead
America's 'Soul' is tainted with the cries and screams of all the suffering it has brought unto others, and these TLP people cheerfully embody that suffering with relish and pride.
That said, thank Christ for at least doing half of the bare minimum and not saying you support them with money. Just know that these were the devils of the past and may be the devils of the future too.
Everyone with half a brain knew the republican party would drop Trump the second he went down, and they would do everything they can to distance themselves from having anything to do with him. Theres nothing interesting or praise worthy for whats being done, because whats being done is the white washing of the entire republican platform now that Trump is becoming no longer useful to them. That there is a propaganda campaign to help them achieve this, and its being bought and eaten up by people here is concerning. The republican presidents of the past that this campaign is trying to valorize were just more competent Trumps. Normalizing the republican party in any capacity should be a major no no, and thats the perogative of this project.
The dem nom said he was open to a republican running mate lol.
Who is the "we" that is sharing their content? I can assure you that I don't share anything because I'm not active on social media. If you're worried about progressive bros sharing their ads on Facebook and Twitter then I don't know what to tell you.
Any perceived mindshare they are accumulating over the ads being shared in progressive circles is the real issue in my eyes because it demonstrates a complete lack of media literacy on the people you are worried about. Your perceived allies are going to fall for a grift like this so we must avert their eyes and protect them? That's what I'm seeing as the actual concern.
Media literacy is something that was once taught in school. Being able to source credible info was a thing you did on high school papers. Teach people that and you won't have to worry about the Lincoln Project or similar things in the future. Anyone who could be turned would have been lost to something else.
Heyo let's be real- for Biden to stay clean he'd have to find a time machine and travel back ~45 years into the past.
Fair enough, but that is what I am worried about.
Edit: and in regard to Era, there has been a lot of signal boosting them. There is crossover.
What? No, everyone is not allies here. You keep pushing this idea that anti-Trump people are being mean to other anti-Trump people, but The Lincoln Project are anti-Trump and are our fucking enemies, not our allies. Being anti-Trump is not enough, and it's vitally important that we do not let people like this reshape the public perception of the Republican party, or allow people on this forum to be swayed into donating towards them
We are talking about centrist Republicans and their reprehensible beliefs so the natural transition when talking about the centrist Democrat who they are carrying water for is speaking to his reprehensible beliefs, include extremely obvioius racism and support for segregationists. I think it's precisely on topic here.
If they help push Hawley out, I'm not going to shed any tears. I guess we won't know until 2022.
On the one hand, TLP's leadership absolutely have a history of racism and all kinds of awful statements and campaigns, no question. The Lincoln Project and Republican Voters Against Trump are both led by disaffected neocons, people I very much do not want in our party -- what's next, neocon Dems saying how we need to bomb Iran? Not a good thought...
But on the other hand, their advertising this year shows a total about-face on exactly this issue.
To the point, here is an ad that the Lincoln Project uploaded yesterday. That Rick Wilson's Lincoln Project, with their ugly history of racism, made THIS, is kind of mind-blowing to say the least...
But there it is, an ad of a black man holding a sign that says "My Life Matters" walking past a row of white people with guns, with audio from Martin Luther King in the ad. It's hard to imagine a bigger change from that Confederate flag cooler to this. Even if you think that they don't actually mean it and are, internally actually still as racist as ever, which is possible, this ad is quite the opposite of that.
So as for them going right back to the Republicans, while that is possible, with how many bridges they have burned this year with ads like the one above and their ones that go right at Trump, unless Trumpism is actually fully expunged from that party, I can't see it happening anytime soon. They have made it clear that Trump's enablers need to go as well. They explicitly oppose the Republicans who have bowed down to Trump.
And so that returns to the start of my post -- is the end result of this the neocons becoming Democrats? In the short term I welcome any support in defeating our racist-fascist President, but in the long term that is certainly quite concerning if they start trying to push us into whatever foreign war they want next. So yes, definitely do not give them money.
But that is a problem for another day; for now we need to defeat Trump, and their ads are helping do that.
But on the other hand, their advertising this year shows a total about-face on exactly this issue.
To the point, here is an ad that the Lincoln Project uploaded yesterday. That Rick Wilson's Lincoln Project, with their ugly history of racism, made THIS, is kind of mind-blowing to say the least...
But there it is, an ad of a black man holding a sign that says "My Life Matters" walking past a row of white people with guns, with audio from Martin Luther King in the ad. It's hard to imagine a bigger change from that Confederate flag cooler to this. Even if you think that they don't actually mean it and are, internally actually still as racist as ever, which is possible, this ad is quite the opposite of that.
So as for them going right back to the Republicans, while that is possible, with how many bridges they have burned this year with ads like the one above and their ones that go right at Trump, unless Trumpism is actually fully expunged from that party, I can't see it happening anytime soon. They have made it clear that Trump's enablers need to go as well. They explicitly oppose the Republicans who have bowed down to Trump.
And so that returns to the start of my post -- is the end result of this the neocons becoming Democrats? In the short term I welcome any support in defeating our racist-fascist President, but in the long term that is certainly quite concerning if they start trying to push us into whatever foreign war they want next. So yes, definitely do not give them money.
But that is a problem for another day; for now we need to defeat Trump, and their ads are helping do that.
This.
Their goal is to continue to have a Republican party after Trump. Liberals and moderate democrats will enable that if swayed by their antics.
I guess we will see, they are on the record of wanting Hawley out.
You are being duped, which is precisely the point that so many of us are trying to get across by saying these guys are dangerous and we shouldn't be platforming them. They have no soul. They believe everything Trump believes, they just think he's an idiot who is making their rancid beliefs look bad by being the moron that he is. They would rather spew hate eloquently than say it with dumb-dumb words.
All the people repeating the same tired "the enemy of my enemy" nonsense think they are smarter than TLP and giving them and their ads the time of day proves that they're not smarter at all.
Exactly, and it will be business as usual, including all the better-veiled bigotry, wealth inequality, climate change denial, and institutionalized racism.
TBH this conversation just seems to keep going in circles because the arguments being made are not symmetrical. The Lincoln Project is full of awful people. They are, temporarily, working against other, even worse people. This has some value. But like, "they're terrible so stop signal boosting them" doesn't actually address that they are putting in some fairly valuable short-term work. I get why people are reluctant to shed allies right now, even if they do fucking suck.
There's actually an interesting argument to be made that right now, we just don't need them. I think that's a more compelling point, honestly. If this was a close election and it was all hands on deck, then sure, I can understand the short term alliance, but if the polling bears out, I don't know it's worth letting these guys build a platform they can use in the future.
Buuuuuuuut of course, nobody who remembers 2016 is inclined to take that kind of thing on faith.
There's actually an interesting argument to be made that right now, we just don't need them. I think that's a more compelling point, honestly. If this was a close election and it was all hands on deck, then sure, I can understand the short term alliance, but if the polling bears out, I don't know it's worth letting these guys build a platform they can use in the future.
Buuuuuuuut of course, nobody who remembers 2016 is inclined to take that kind of thing on faith.
Ehhhhhhhhh sorta. Some of it is. Some of it's targeting other Never-Trump conservatives, or people who could be. And some of it's targeting Trump, himself, specifically, to incite a reaction.
I have a hard time believing this thread is filled with non-allies and people mistakenly donating to the Lincoln Project. Most people on this forum are well aware of who the Lincoln Project is and aren't changing their future votes based on their ads. I guess I just don't understand where this thread is going besides people attacking other posters as anyone who even supports the Lincoln Project on this forum would never post in this thread. It feels like everyone came into this thread to fight an opponent who never showed up.
I greatly appreciate internet for allowing receipts on assholes that used the confederate symbol as a point of pride in the past 10 years. The Lincoln Project is a fairly naked attempt to mindwipe moderates and their "friends" of the treachery the republicans involved oozed since possibly 9/11 and definitely with Obama's admin. They do not deserve a seat at the next table. They helped make this one we are trying to clear.
If Republican leadership were not cowardly, sniveling, power-hungry sociopaths, they would have looked the facts in the face when Trump was up for impeachment instead of the bizarre show they put on as they received tax cuts, destroyed the environment, locked kids in cages, and engaged in unscrupulous everything else. They deserve no goodwill.
If Republican leadership were not cowardly, sniveling, power-hungry sociopaths, they would have looked the facts in the face when Trump was up for impeachment instead of the bizarre show they put on as they received tax cuts, destroyed the environment, locked kids in cages, and engaged in unscrupulous everything else. They deserve no goodwill.
This argument keeps coming up, and I believe it misses the forest for the trees. Biden winning isn't the goal. Biden winning with control of both chambers and a firm mandate is the goal. Only then can systematic changes be accomplished.
In order to achieve that goal, the vote of center leaning Republicans must be depressed. The Republicans that held their noses and pulled the lever for Trump are the laser focused targets. They don't need to be converted, they just need to stay home.
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Something about that last sentence I quoted makes me think for some reason that first paragraph isn't as big of a deal to you as you think it might be
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I never said otherwise.
Again, we can do that without enabling other Republicans. Have some faith in the people that actually support progressive causes, or at the very least, don't support racist and homophobic ones!
Exactly what percentage of of the party do these Never-Trump types make up? Do you think these ads are specifically appealing to them when they are a tiny percentage of voters? The large majority of this is targeted at ideologically weak Liberals. They are also getting donations and profiting from this endeavor, as they keep making ads. How many Republicans held their nose when voting for Trump?
In total sincerity, can you explain why it makes sense that we have banned sharing anything by someone like Angry Joe, while we are okay with lauding the videos put out by TLP which are made by people who have arguably contributed to actual war crimes? Is the "good work" they are doing, which you admit might not even be necessary, worth any amount of signal boost we give them?
Like.... I'm aware they're shitheads. Anyone with a basic level of knowledge should know this.
But that's not going to stop me from accepting their help in this situation. And cast them aside when no longer necessary.
Things are more complicated than everyone would like.
But that's not going to stop me from accepting their help in this situation. And cast them aside when no longer necessary.
Things are more complicated than everyone would like.
The problem with "cast them aside when they're no longer necessary" is that you have contributed to helping them build their propaganda machine, which they will undoubtedly keep using after November, and it won't be long before they turn their sights on Dems. Just watch.
The way the US Constitution is set up ensures that there will be a conservative and liberal political party no matter what. This will never change, regardless of Trump or the Lincoln Project. Best case scenario is Democrats winning state legislatures to affect meaningful change for the next decade.
Declaring a nebulous amount of posters in this thread as your enemy does not seem like a productive form of discussion.
Not totally sure. One of the weirder phenomena of the past 4 years is the shift of previously Republican suburbs strongly towards Dems. In 2016, I'd have said that the never-Trump wing of the party was a joke. 2018 showed that enough people joined it over Trump's tenure that they might actually have some significant political sway. How they're going to shake out after he's gone is something everybody's sort of wondering about.
The machine will be built regardless. And I will take anything to get trump out. I'm fully aware they're shitheads, like I said, and will go after Dems when needed.
But right now, they're also helping Dem Senate races. I'll never donate to them. But I'm just not going to be upset with their ads. Not at all.
But I'm not posting or promoting them.
And it feels a little extreme to say I'm now a racist, homophobic, islamophobic, and anti-semitic enabler, all because I watched (and enjoyed!) a decent anti-Trump ad.
You may be right, but why help contribute to it at all when it costs you nothing to just... not share their stuff.
I'm sorry you seem upset that many of us aren't going to ally ourselves with people who want to continue defending and platforming a racist republican propaganda campaign on a progressive site meant to be a place of inclusivity. You know what isn't productive? Any discussion of TLP on this site, yet here we are. If you want to keep making statements like you did before continue to do so. But don't be surprised when people call you out for it. You don't get to argue for the validity of this project here and then turn around and tell people were all on the same side. Because were not.
I'm fine with having a conservative and liberal party. The republican party is not a conservative party, it's an extremist cultist criminal enterprise currently enabling genocide.
The Democratic party should be the conservative US party if we want anything to actually change in our lifetimes. All republicans need to go. None are allies.
They didnt say you were, but the people behind TLP very clearly are, and there's no reason for people to signal boost them while ignoring the harm they cause
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Note: Conservatism is inherently racist, sexist, homophobic and anti-science too.
But you're attributing a single thing to a shift in politics, this could be younger people reaching voting age, places being cheaper to live in and attracting democratic voters, or just gradual shifting of politics. To say that Never-Trumpers are some significant portion of the voting base without evidence is kinda weird here. Even if we imagined a scenario where these Never-Trumpers existed in a significant portion, by definition they will go back to voting for the Republican party once Trump is out of office. So who exactly are TLP targeting here when they know this?