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Lord Bandi

Member
Apr 30, 2020
1,116
This shit is beyond infuriating as we are about to go into the new year!!

I just wanted to hop on the game and quick and get my dailies done and I'd be done right
if it wasn't for this stupid "copying".

Shit moves at a snails pace! It actually only took seconds for the update to DL, but I've been sitting here waiting a good 15 mins for the copying to be done!!

Horrible. Why hasn't Sony fixed this?!
 

Phantom_Snake

The Fallen
Jul 26, 2018
3,770
Montana
I haven't had an issue with this. Came hoke for break the other day and needed the update and thought "fuck", but it was done in a few minutes. I never keep it in rest mode but maybe I have it set to turn on and update? Idk if thats even a thing though.
 

JohnnyToonami

Member
Dec 16, 2018
5,467
Earth
What game OP? I noticed some PS5 game update instantly while some don't. PS4 games like rocket league take forever to finish it. Easily the longest time I've seen.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
I thought this was supposed to be a thing of the past with PS5 and its SSD.
I get the impression the way updates work on PS5 is it makes a copy of all the existing contents when processing the update, rather than updating the contents of the standing data. This is slow even for an SSD to do, because you can at least half your throughput copying contents on the same drive. Not to mention writing is slower than reading on any SSD.
 

TeenageFBI

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,230
Yeah, PS5 patches take forever. I'm certain they're simply copying the entire game to a temporary location and patching THAT version. Delta patching is still beyond Sony, I guess.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
My random guess is that a future firmware update will finally do away with that copying process. Certain features with the OS may have been pushed back for future updates.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,557
湘南
I thought this was supposed to be a thing of the past with PS5 and its SSD.

I believe it depends on the game's file structure. I've had games that take a while and games that update pretty fast. Cerny talked about this during the first PS5 Presentation a while back and how updates used to have to redownload and re-apply existing game data. Keep in mind plenty of games are still going to have that same structure as a lot of games that are cross gen don't seem to be optimized for the new drive. Also, PS4 titles have to be structured with an HDD in mind.

This is just how I interpret it all.
 

MadMike

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,425
Yeah, this is super annoying. Updated something a couple days ago, and it took maybe 15 seconds to download the patch, and over 5 minutes for "copying". Cerny himself said this shouldn't be a problem on PS5, but here we are, even with actual PS5 games. The problem is even worse on PS5 than it was on PS4, because PS4 let you download something else during the installing period. PS5 makes you wait until the first game is done copying before you can download something for another game.
 

HanzSnubSnub

Member
Oct 27, 2017
917
I'm with you OP, it's embarrassing it takes that long to process and update when the download takes seconds
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,781
Avengers patch downloaded earlier (~300MB), it then took around 4 mins to "copy".

I'm fairly sure this doesn't happen all the time with patches though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,465
It's ridiculous. I have gig fiber and download updates in seconds but then sit for 10vor more min for the stupid copy
 

vatstep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
It seems to depend on the game and how many patches it's received. It's almost instantaneous with some games that don't get a lot of updates, but for a game like Destiny that gets one every few weeks it takes a lot longer (though it's much better than on PS4 which would take a half-hour to do the "copying" process).
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,666
Western Australia
Sony added this step towards the end of the PS3 gen as insurance against the possibility of corrupt patch installs, and it's always been a nuisance due to the rudimentary implementation (Steam does the same thing but copies the relevant files in a dummy state and overwrites the data on the fly while the patch downloads, making the copy phase virtually instant without compromising data integrity). To add insult to injury, back when the change was made, patches still had to be installed in sequence -- it wasn't possible to update straight from retail to, say, v1.5 -- and I remember someone on GAF saying they had to wait a rather ridiculous amount of time to fully reinstall one of the Gran Turismo games.
 
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NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,000
Australia
I still don't get why they do it. I can imagine if you're somebody who worries about data caps and got a install error it will be a godsend but that has to be a very rare circumstance. It's not worth the inconvenience for everybody else.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
Its hit or miss for me.

Games I think wont do copying do, games I think will do copying dont, lol.

And its PS4 and PS5 games.
Avengers patch downloaded earlier (~300MB), it then took around 4 mins to "copy".

I'm fairly sure this doesn't happen all the time with patches though.
It doesnt, I used to be able to tell which game might do copying, now its almost random.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
On PS4 it used to take me about ten mins to download Destiny updates and then an hour for copying. Piss poor design on Sonys part that I assumed would go away on PS5 but it hasn't. But now copying only takes five to ten mins, which is still stupid.
 

LAA

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,324
Yeah agreed. Thought it'd be gone with Nvme SSDs too but seemingly not.
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
It's only BC PS4 games and it's hella faster than it was on PS4. PS5 games update a lot faster.

Also if you are so concerned just sleep your console instead of fully powering down and let it download and install patches in the background for you.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
I thought this was supposed to be a thing of the past with PS5 and its SSD.
The SSD will just reduce the time needed for the method Sony is using here. Having said that, if Sony would've opted for another method like Xbox uses for One and Series, then there wouldn't be a copying process at all.
 
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Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,551
A few years ago, I remember being absolutely fucked by a destiny update on ps4 that required more than double the HDD space for a patch that was less than 10GB. I literally had to delete 4 games to be able to update. 120GB+ of roomso the system could fucking copy. Maddening
 

Rayder

Member
Jun 15, 2018
202
Cleveland, Ohio
Well, as I understand it, the "copying" thing was to insure the game's files remained contiguous, instead of scattered all over the HDD and slowing down seek times for streaming data, like in open world games. In that respect (a mechanial HDD) it made sense to do that copying stuff.

But on an SSD it seems unnecessary as seek times are basically zero and it can read the data instantly from anywhere on the drive. So I don't know why it still does that on PS5.
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
The SSD will just reduce the time needed for the method Sony is using here. Having said that, if Sony would've opted for another method like Xbox uses for One and Series, then there wouldn't be a copying process at all.
not really tbh for me. I like the PSN method better
id rather have option to play while downloading a patch or DLC
which is not possible with the Xbox method
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
not really tbh for me. I like the PSN method better
id rather have option to play while downloading a patch or DLC
which is not possible with the Xbox method
Indeed there are definitely downsides to Xbox method as well. My comparison was more about proofing that this isn't a SSD issue, given no copying exist on Xbox One. It's just about the software solution these companies opted with. For better or worse, which depends on the person you ask.
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
Indeed there are definitely downsides to Xbox method as well. My comparison was more about proofing that this isn't a SSD issue, given no copying exist on Xbox One. It's just about the software solution these companies opted with. For better or worse, which depends on the person you ask.
yeah
it seemed Cerny found a way to do both from the presentation
but in the end he just meant we don't require double to space to copy anymore
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,962
This shit is beyond infuriating as we are about to go into the new year!!

I just wanted to hop on the game and quick and get my dailies done and I'd be done right
if it wasn't for this stupid "copying".

Shit moves at a snails pace! It actually only took seconds for the update to DL, but I've been sitting here waiting a good 15 mins for the copying to be done!!

Horrible. Why hasn't Sony fixed this?!
The world is ending! Ahhhhh! ;) yep it's slow
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
There's a common misconception about what Cerny was talking about during that segment. Many people, including me, thought he was talking about the end of the copying process but he wasn't.

If you go back to it he was talking about the PS4 game update process which aims to reduce the seek penalty for reading a file. By ensuring all blocks of a file are contiguous on the platter the HDD heads aren't bouncing all over the place. With an SSD there's no heads to physically move and effectively no seek penalty. This means that parts of the file don't need to be contiguous across the filesystem and files that needed to be next to each other on a HDD for read performance can be located anywhere on the SSD.

The copying process is still required for any updates, that's just how they apply changes. They download the update and then apply the changes, this allows you to play the game whilst the update downloads, a boon for anyone with poor internet. If they were to change the process, and do what Xbox does by patching the game as the file downloads, then you wouldn't be able to play it during the entirety of the process.

The install process obviously has no copying process.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
Well, as I understand it, the "copying" thing was to insure the game's files remained contiguous, instead of scattered all over the HDD and slowing down seek times for streaming data, like in open world games. In that respect (a mechanial HDD) it made sense to do that copying stuff.

But on an SSD it seems unnecessary as seek times are basically zero and it can read the data instantly from anywhere on the drive. So I don't know why it still does that on PS5.
That's not why it did that, and it wouldn't even typically happen as a side effect unless you always had exactly the games size in unfragmented free space. It does it to maintain integrity of the game data if something about the update fails or is interrupted, so it can be reverted simply by deleting the update data that was being processed, and the existing game data ends up untouched.

This is unlike Xbox, which I suspect opts instead to use filesystem journaling to restore individual chunks of data, much like Windows Update does.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,217
Tokyo, Japan
It's the worst. I somehow always forget to switch the console on early when it's Apex patch day.

At least the copying process is slightly faster on PS5.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
That's not why it did that, and it wouldn't even typically happen as a side effect unless you always had exactly the games size in unfragmented free space.
On PS4 games you do have to have the full amount of space free that the game takes up, even to apply a 100MB patch.

Here's a Eurogamer article where they are annoyed by having to clear up 100GB of space on their PS5 just to apply a 17GB update to a PS4 game (back when you couldn't offload PS5 games to cold storage so it was a full deletion)
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
I get the impression the way updates work on PS5 is it makes a copy of all the existing contents when processing the update, rather than updating the contents of the standing data. This is slow even for an SSD to do, because you can at least half your throughput copying contents on the same drive. Not to mention writing is slower than reading on any SSD.

The reason this is done on PS4 is because of HDD seek times. SSD shouldn't have this limitation.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
On PS4 games you do have to have the full amount of space free that the game takes up, even to apply a 100MB patch.
Right, but the keyword there is still unfragmented. Just because it's free space, that doesn't mean it's contiguous. You would need to maintain the size of the largest game you have in free space for that, not just the game you're patching.

I can absolutely guarantee you that it's only to do with patch installation insurance. Nothing to do with fragmentation at all, that's simply not possible to maintain with such a method.
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,611
There's a common misconception about what Cerny was talking about during that segment. Many people, including me, thought he was talking about the end of the copying process but he wasn't.

If you go back to it he was talking about the PS4 game update process which aims to reduce the seek penalty for reading a file. By ensuring all blocks of a file are contiguous on the platter the HDD heads aren't bouncing all over the place. With an SSD there's no heads to physically move and effectively no seek penalty. This means that parts of the file don't need to be contiguous across the filesystem and files that needed to be next to each other on a HDD for read performance can be located anywhere on the SSD.

The copying process is still required for any updates, that's just how they apply changes. They download the update and then apply the changes, this allows you to play the game whilst the update downloads, a boon for anyone with poor internet. If they were to change the process, and do what Xbox does by patching the game as the file downloads, then you wouldn't be able to play it during the entirety of the process.

The install process obviously has no copying process.
And a side effect is that downloads are faster if your bandwidth is high enough.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
The reason this is done on PS4 is because of HDD seek times. SSD shouldn't have this limitation.
It has nothing to do with HDD seek times at all. It's file integrity insurance. As I explained above, there's nothing about the current system that would allow it to be sufficient for defragmentation.
 

Sunnz

Member
Apr 16, 2019
1,251
PS4 here but...

I just delete the game and redownload personally, especially if it's a big update ( like cod)

100gb to download takes like maybe an hour for me, "copying" a 30 gb update alone takes like 45 minutes sometimes....

It's annoying.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
Right, but the keyword there is still unfragmented. Just because it's free space, that doesn't mean it's contiguous. You would need to maintain the size of the largest game you have in free space for that, not just the game you're patching.

I can absolutely guarantee you that it's only to do with patch installation insurance. Nothing to do with fragmentation at all, that's simply not possible to maintain with such a method.
That's fair, and at best bonus of the patching process. Cerny did specifically call out that the PS4 process recreates files in their entirety to prevent additional seek times, so it can't just be patch installation insurance. Unless... you're hinting at something called out in the SDK docs that contradicts what he said in the road to PS5 video and I'm too dumb to get it? :D
 

BradleyLove

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,456
I believe it depends on the game's file structure. I've had games that take a while and games that update pretty fast. Cerny talked about this during the first PS5 Presentation a while back and how updates used to have to redownload and re-apply existing game data. Keep in mind plenty of games are still going to have that same structure as a lot of games that are cross gen don't seem to be optimized for the new drive. Also, PS4 titles have to be structured with an HDD in mind.

This is just how I interpret it all.
This is what I've though also. Some titles do copying, some don't.
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
It has nothing to do with HDD seek times at all. It's file integrity insurance. As I explained above, there's nothing about the current system that would allow it to be sufficient for defragmentation.

On PS4 it doesn't require the entire size of the game that it needs to update as free space. It only needs the free space of the segment/s it needs to update. It can be the whole game or it can be just a small segment.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
That's fair, and at best bonus of the patching process. Cerny did specifically call out that the PS4 process recreates files in their entirety to prevent additional seek times, so it can't just be patch installation insurance. Unless... you're hinting at something called out in the SDK docs that contradicts what he said in the road to PS5 video and I'm too dumb to get it? :D
Nah, the SDK doesn't talk about it (as far as I'm aware, plus I'd never publicly talk about stuff explained in the SDKs). This is just through educated guesses. My reasoning is the PS4 and 5 share file system behaviors with older FAT systems, you cut power to the console and it needs to validate the drive. Thus, I know it has no journaling, and we know the update procedure works similar to how Steam used to work back in the day, where it needed a copy of the game to patch it so it could never get tripped up by the live game or sudden power loss.

Defragmentation can't really come into it, because I also know you need the largest object in free space to be able to move anything around, not just the thing that's fragmented. Stands to reason then that it's not related. The thing Cerny points out doesn't really make much sense in that regard, unless they just mean individual files, of which that would certainly mostly work as consequence, though it wouldn't be perfect. However the individual game files being unfragmented isn't really as helpful, you'd want it to apply to the entire contents.

On PS4 it doesn't require the entire size of the game that it needs to update as free space. It only needs the free space of the segment/s it needs to update. It can be the whole game or it can be just a small segment.
There seems to be conflicting reports then. People definitely report you need the whole game in free space, is that not the case, do we know for certain? But again that wouldn't really defragment the game as a whole, in fact it wouldn't do that at all in that case, the files would slowly split apart all over the drive.
 
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gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
The thing Cerny points out doesn't really make much sense in that regard, unless they just mean individual files, of which that would certainly mostly work as consequence, though it wouldn't be perfect. However the individual game files being unfragmented isn't really as helpful, you'd want it to apply to the entire contents.
It specifically is at an individual file level to stop seeks during a file read. That was the big thing he was pushing as a benefit of the SSD, no seek penalty, no need to recreate files in their entirety just to apply a tiny patch.
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
There seems to be conflicting reports then. People definitely report you need the whole game in free space, is that not the case, do we know for certain? But again that wouldn't really defragment the game as a whole, in fact it wouldn't do that at all in that case, the files would slowly split apart all over the drive.

Yes, I know for certain. It doesn't require the whole game as free space. There are those that do but as I said, that only happens if the segment/s of the game that require updating cover the entire file size. I have made multiple threads ranting about it here in Era.