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May 17, 2019
2,649
For those unaware of the condition, prosopagnosia is a cognitive disability that impairs the function of an individual to recognize either faces in associative manner or imaginative. For example, I need to rely on my friends' haircuts to recognize them, but when they end up getting a makeover I'm rendered completely lost. Although I can eventually get a sense of familiarity with others' faces, this usually requires years of being around them. For years I thought people were messing with me when they could see faces in clouds. Don't even get me started bald people and crowds. Dunkirk was an absolute nightmare to watch.

Early on in my life I was diagnosed with NVLD (Nonverbal Learning Disorder), another cognitive impairment, but one that makes it exceptionally difficult for me to read body cues. Subtle facial expressions just pass me by. I need someone to be outright crying for me to tell whether they're sad. Total mess. What I really want to discuss though is the impact of increasing graphic fidelity paired with motion capture technology and how that affects my experience with AAA gaming.

Until about 2013/2014 games relied on exaggerated movement to convey emotion and stylized, distinctive models in order to separate characters from one another. This I could follow. Much like Silver Age comics, a great deal was needed to communicate very little. However, with the advent of eighth-generation consoles, companies were able to expand their technology with a leap and bound. Take Wolfenstein: The New Order as an example. BJ's small, quiet smiles were lost on me and side characters became a jumble with their matching clothes and haircuts. I became hopelessly lost.

As the generation went on, these problems became more pronounced. When I finally played Hellblade last year, I was incredibly unnerved. Sesuna was unknown to me, the realistic face unreadable. Graphic prowess had finally become too much to grasp. The same situation occurred in RDR2 and The Last of Us 2 footage. In the rush to capture realism, I have been left behind, unable to follow the characters.

Yes, I know this is mainly just a "me issue" and I don't want to take away from what others are excited by. However, I wanted to share my experience and apprehension of where the next generation will go for me. I predict by the end of the nineth-generation I will be no longer able to play AAA games with their rapidly advancing tech.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,706
I'm sorry to read this OP, this must be a real pain in the ass to deal with in the day-to-day. Videogames wise, as they get closer and closer to cinematic experiences, those issues are clearer I guess.

I think, though, AAA games can be of all shapes and forms, and there are genres which I think would help with that, like racing games, first person shooters, strategy games... Maybe not as focused on cutscenes. And if you go to stuff below AAA you can always find a lot of genres that don't take that cinematic approach as hard, mainly because they don't have the resources to do it, but still pump out fantastic games.

And this might be a long shot, but Japanese games might actually help, because their character designs are pretty out there, and they try to single out each character by their shape and colors, not just face, hair and voice.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
I'm sorry to read this OP, this must be a real pain in the ass to deal with in the day-to-day. Videogames wise, as they get closer and closer to cinematic experiences, those issues are clearer I guess.

I think, though, AAA games can be of all shapes and forms, and there are genres which I think would help with that, like racing games, first person shooters, strategy games... Maybe not as focused on cutscenes. And if you go to stuff below AAA you can always find a lot of genres that don't take that cinematic approach as hard, mainly because they don't have the resources to do it, but still pump out fantastic games.

And this might be a long shot, but Japanese games might actually help, because their character designs are pretty out there, and they try to single out each character by their shape and colors, not just face, hair and voice.

Honestly, it is the big reason I switched to playing primarily indies a few years ago. Found those developers put more effort into differentiation.

I do love that Japanese devs put the effort in for that, but a lot of their tropes just bother me a bit.
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,373
Thanks for sharing this, OP. Can't imagine how frustrating this must be to deal with. This is worthy of an article/story at Kotaku or one of the bigger sites.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Asia
Like anything else, you learn to live with it. Once mistook a random woman for my mother once, which was delightfully embarrassing.

If you could entertain the question, can you still follow along if there are named subtitles? Wolfenstein is wonderfully bad at them, but AC Odyssey or other games that always have a name, text, and voice? Or is there a missing piece to the puzzle there beyond simply the readability of the character model?
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
If you could entertain the question, can you still follow along if there are named subtitles? Wolfenstein is wonderfully bad at them, but AC Odyssey or other games that always have a name, text, and voice? Or is there a missing piece to the puzzle there beyond simply the readability of the character model?

If I can identify which character it is coming from, then it isn't as much of a problem. For example, I love movies, but I can't do much identification of characters in military flicks, even with good audio tracks.
 
Nov 28, 2017
1,357
This is quite an interesting read. Never knew of this condition before. I'm sorry you (and people like you) have to go through with this.

But I'm afraid the majority of the industry will move forward with tech like PerfCap, now even more with dynamic RT (or at least some portion of it like GI) starting to become mainstream, we'll get to see subtle facial and body animations, all while chasing the forever dream of photo-realism, more than ever.

Can you think of an accessibility solution for this condition, that's both a middle ground for you and the developer, and not just filming exaggerated facial/body animations, twice? If a developer is presented with a solution that is both, time and resource, effective, I'm sure they will consider about implementing it.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Asia
If I can identify which character it is coming from, then it isn't as much of a problem. For example, I love movies, but I can't do much identification of characters in military flicks, even with good audio tracks.

Yeah, I was just thinking about how many games now use the "Name:" field whereas a lot of film/TV struggle to do so. There are also some games that attempt color coding (SOTR, South Park 2) although to varying success. Anyway, thanks for the answer - UX is kind of my job so it's helpful to hear about your perspective.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
This is quite an interesting read. Never knew of this condition before. I'm sorry you (and people like you) have to go through with this.

But I'm afraid the majority of the industry will move forward with tech like PerfCap, now even more with dynamic RT (or at least some portion of it like GI) starting to become mainstream, we'll get to see subtle facial and body animations, all while chasing the forever dream of photo-realism, more than ever.

Can you think of an accessibility solution for this condition, that's both a middle ground for you and the developer, and not just filming exaggerated facial/body animations, twice? If a developer is presented with a solution that is both, time and resource, effective, I'm sure they will consider about implementing it.

Like I said, I don't blame the industry for moving forward with this. People want it, thus it sells. Never been particularly invested in graphical fidelity, but I grok it. As to solutions, the only ones that I can come with are the following:

1. Better descriptive audio tracks: Most games utterly fail at this. While I'm not deaf, I need similar help with movies. Who is talking? Where are they? What is their emotion? There is a great review on CanIPlayThat that covers how Gears of War 5 did a great job.

2. Distinctive Characters and Profiles: A situational one, but something that could be implemented more. Many have commented on how Overwatch and Team Fortress characters were designed to be recognized by their outlines. A quick reference and that is all it takes. As mentioned in an above comment, military movies are difficult for me due to characters having the same stature, outfits, haircuts, and postures. By implementing a wider variety of character builds and non-facial appearances, I can recognize them better. Obviously, this one isn't suited to every game, but I believe that it would work for many.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
Yeah, I was just thinking about how many games now use the "Name:" field whereas a lot of film/TV struggle to do so. There are also some games that attempt color coding (SOTR, South Park 2) although to varying success. Anyway, thanks for the answer - UX is kind of my job so it's helpful to hear about your perspective.

The best game I've ever played for this doesn't exactly have the best graphics and the faces can be an issue still, but Pathologic 2 always has the characters' names by dialogue and made sure that each character is recognize by their clothes and outline. The repeated models are all non-plot important, thus are able to be identified through their repetition.

The worst game I played for this was Detroit. Every just talked in the same manner and felt so close to each other in model, even with different outfits.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,877
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
High five, OP. I also suffer from face blindness, so I can relate to a degree. I can read faces and expressions fine, but remembering them is a lost cause. I can remember pretty much anything I can put into words, but the subtle details that I can't clearly describe are pretty much never going to stick. I typically have to rely on people's voices, their hair, their outfits, or just where they generally are located to recognise who they are. If someone breaks their routine, or are standing next to someone similar, I'm going to have to make an educated guess, which often leads to embarrassing situations.

As for how it relates to video games, I seem to have the most trouble with games that have proc-gen characters, or characters that were hand-made from Character Creator systems. Open Worlds, MMOs, and Western RPGs can be rough, since they use those a lot. I have no interest in military games, but I can totally see why those can be tricky too. I end up gravitating towards more stylised probably for that very reason.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
High five, OP. I also suffer from face blindness, so I can relate to a degree. I can read faces and expressions fine, but remembering them is a lost cause. I can remember pretty much anything I can put into words, but the subtle details that I can't clearly describe are pretty much never going to stick. I typically have to rely on people's voices, their hair, their outfits, or just where they generally are located to recognise who they are. If someone breaks their routine, or are standing next to someone similar, I'm going to have to make an educated guess, which often leads to embarrassing situations.

As for how it relates to video games, I seem to have the most trouble with games that have proc-gen characters, or characters that were hand-made from Character Creator systems. Open Worlds, MMOs, and Western RPGs can be rough, since they use those a lot. I have no interest in military games, but I can totally see why those can be tricky too. I end up gravitating towards more stylised probably for that very reason.

High five! Definitely been there. Parties are just soooo fun when people decide to change their entire appearance. I've had a few people get angry at me for not know who they were. Definitely with you on the open world problem and how everyone looks pretty similar. Add in character schedules and I have no idea where anything is.
 

Kitsune86

Member
Nov 25, 2017
98
I also have NVLD (it's probably the reason I was also dx'd with ASD, there's such huge overlap). Combined with my EDS, my vision is quite poor so in top of my face-blindness, where I fail to recognize people, I also have to deal with crappy vision. Makes things like conferences really difficult because people might walk up to me that I've met and I'll be all confused for a couple seconds haha.

In terms of AAA games, yeah even watching trailers for games, thinking back on it the ones for RDR2 (and other hyper realistic games) comes to mind - differentiating between characters based upon face alone is almost impossible. I find myself referring to characters based upon their clothing a lot of the time ("the woman in the red blouse", "that guy who was wearing a white sweater" etc etc).

It's probably one of the reasons I've gravitated towards playing bright and exaggerated games. FFXIV I've invested thousands of hours and I tell all my friends characters apparent despite there only being so many race/body parts combinations.
 

Adryuu

Master of the Wind
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,601
Wow, today I learned about something new. I admit not having known about these issues before, and worse, not having much to add to the thread .But it's interesting for sure.

I guess you all are seeing the AAA game space moving closer to films in that regard, with the same difficulties that they come with. And I suppose the already mentioned audio distinction (if voices are help enough) plus named captions can be the most help when there's no audio description / commentary (which I assume is really not frequent). Anyway I guess the thread is more informative than asking for help, and it's appreciated.

Other than that, I guess you'll have to rely more on less narrative games and more focused on gameplay ones, if they can be played clearly enough. Although it must suck trying to follow the story when it's interesting.

Do you find difficulties with pixel based games? I guess this problem is only more recent with realistic style games so, even newer games with maybe cell shaded graphics are fine to follow?
 

Wintermute

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,051
For those unaware of the condition, prosopagnosia is a cognitive disability that impairs the function of an individual to recognize either faces in associative manner or imaginative. For example, I need to rely on my friends' haircuts to recognize them, but when they end up getting a makeover I'm rendered completely lost. Although I can eventually get a sense of familiarity with others' faces, this usually requires years of being around them. For years I thought people were messing with me when they could see faces in clouds. Don't even get me started bald people and crowds. Dunkirk was an absolute nightmare to watch.

Early on in my life I was diagnosed with NVLD (Nonverbal Learning Disorder), another cognitive impairment, but one that makes it exceptionally difficult for me to read body cues. Subtle facial expressions just pass me by. I need someone to be outright crying for me to tell whether they're sad. Total mess. What I really want to discuss though is the impact of increasing graphic fidelity paired with motion capture technology and how that affects my experience with AAA gaming.

Until about 2013/2014 games relied on exaggerated movement to convey emotion and stylized, distinctive models in order to separate characters from one another. This I could follow. Much like Silver Age comics, a great deal was needed to communicate very little. However, with the advent of eighth-generation consoles, companies were able to expand their technology with a leap and bound. Take Wolfenstein: The New Order as an example. BJ's small, quiet smiles were lost on me and side characters became a jumble with their matching clothes and haircuts. I became hopelessly lost.

As the generation went on, these problems became more pronounced. When I finally played Hellblade last year, I was incredibly unnerved. Sesuna was unknown to me, the realistic face unreadable. Graphic prowess had finally become too much to grasp. The same situation occurred in RDR2 and The Last of Us 2 footage. In the rush to capture realism, I have been left behind, unable to follow the characters.

Yes, I know this is mainly just a "me issue" and I don't want to take away from what others are excited by. However, I wanted to share my experience and apprehension of where the next generation will go for me. I predict by the end of the nineth-generation I will be no longer able to play AAA games with their rapidly advancing tech.

your experience is valuable OP thank you for sharing it.

hopefully indie games can continue to thrive in this space and be able to meet the needs of people like yourself. also i hope that in the future AAA games will continue to explore non-photo-realistic styles that are accessible to everyone.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
Wow, today I learned about something new. I admit not having known about these issues before, and worse, not having much to add to the thread .But it's interesting for sure.

I guess you all are seeing the AAA game space moving closer to films in that regard, with the same difficulties that they come with. And I suppose the already mentioned audio distinction (if voices are help enough) plus named captions can be the most help when there's no audio description / commentary (which I assume is really not frequent). Anyway I guess the thread is more informative than asking for help, and it's appreciated.

Other than that, I guess you'll have to rely more on less narrative games and more focused on gameplay ones, if they can be played clearly enough. Although it must suck trying to follow the story when it's interesting.

Do you find difficulties with pixel based games? I guess this problem is only more recent with realistic style games so, even newer games with maybe cell shaded graphics are fine to follow?

It is largely a photo-realism problem, yes. Cell shaded have been mostly fine.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
I also have NVLD (it's probably the reason I was also dx'd with ASD, there's such huge overlap). Combined with my EDS, my vision is quite poor so in top of my face-blindness, where I fail to recognize people, I also have to deal with crappy vision. Makes things like conferences really difficult because people might walk up to me that I've met and I'll be all confused for a couple seconds haha.

In terms of AAA games, yeah even watching trailers for games, thinking back on it the ones for RDR2 (and other hyper realistic games) comes to mind - differentiating between characters based upon face alone is almost impossible. I find myself referring to characters based upon their clothing a lot of the time ("the woman in the red blouse", "that guy who was wearing a white sweater" etc etc).

It's probably one of the reasons I've gravitated towards playing bright and exaggerated games. FFXIV I've invested thousands of hours and I tell all my friends characters apparent despite there only being so many race/body parts combinations.

High five, fellow NVLDer? I've wondered for years if I have ASD. Don't really want to bother getting tested, but my thereapist thinks I have it. Definitely empathize with the conference problem. Also, the clothing thing is really true.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,030
Urinated States of America
Yep, this is certainly one aspect of photorealism that the AAA space will only exacerbate. The way one's mind eye responds to distinct and stylized accentuations of faces and characters versus that of a one-to-one rendition of a real-life humanlike individual reveals the stylistic disparity between real, lifelike worlds/artstyles and more visually cued, accessorized ones. Likewise, the prosopagnosia condition with its central inability to process and recognize faces is indeed primarily only applicable to humans; the face of a cat, for instance, can be perceived and designated mostly as normal. The further we dive into the realm of realistic graphical fidelity, the harder it will be for those kind of games to provide a sandbox that can also be more easily followed on a visual basis, character-wise, particularly for the likes of anybody with NVLD -- maybe in games that supply distinctive vocal cues and don't rely too much on investing yourself either mechanically or emotionally in characters by eye, there will still be some operable leeway, but in the interim, there is at least still plenty of great gems and hopes in a haystack to be found in the indie-space, and other games conversed on hyper realistic art design. The dilemma is a bummer; however, we never know -- as technology advances to improve visual fidelity, perhaps it will also catch up on finding ways to bridge that gap between visual human/social perception impairments & their surrounding family of conditions, and the recognition of emotional and designation cues in photorealistic virtual spaces to an accessibility-oriented and -minded point of functionality, if possible. At the least, may a handful other damn fine games without all the polygons or crossing of uncanny valleys, etc. etc., prove themselves to be just as meaty and compelling of a work in the years ahead, as they have in years past, if the AAA-space takes a full on leap away. Because despite the way graphical technology in games are progressing, I hope you and everyone else can reap what the form has to offer, with a surplus to spare, somehow or another Hoo..!! *wink nod* ;)
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
Good news is that some devs are pushing for better accessibility standards, like The Coalition with Gears 5.


Supposedly this culture change is already spreading through Microsoft (and Xbox studios), it's probably a matter of time until the general public starts being vocal about problems like these.

It's funny because as a foreigner subtitles are really important to me, so having devs focusing on people with your condition just makes my experience (of someone without any condition) that much better. I have high hopes for a future with great accessibility settings.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
Good news is that some devs are pushing for better accessibility standards, like The Coalition with Gears 5.


Supposedly this culture change is already spreading through Microsoft (and Xbox studios), it's probably a matter of time until the general public starts being vocal about problems like these.

It's funny because as a foreigner subtitles are really important to me, so having devs focusing on people with your condition just makes my experience (of someone without any condition) that much better. I have high hopes for a future with great accessibility settings.


Thank you for sharing the video, interesting stuff.
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
I wouldn't say I have that condition, but I find it very hard to remember names and faces and between games like anime or "everyone is realistic" games, I find it super hard to remember most characters besides usually the main party.

I feel some fighting games are usually easier here (not doa though). There's usually always set characters and a visual design that is meant to make the characters stand out visually.

Anything that helps make remembering names easier would be a good step though. Until then I largely rely on tall guy, angry girl, pink shirt guy, cat ears girl, etc
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
I wouldn't say I have that condition, but I find it very hard to remember names and faces and between games like anime or "everyone is realistic" games, I find it super hard to remember most characters besides usually the main party.

I feel some fighting games are usually easier here (not doa though). There's usually always set characters and a visual design that is meant to make the characters stand out visually.

Anything that helps make remembering names easier would be a good step though. Until then I largely rely on tall guy, angry girl, pink shirt guy, cat ears girl, etc

Yeah, what I took from this thread is that many people, even those without similar disabilities, share the issues of telling apart game characters.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,943
Japan
I must admit I didn't know this.
Is telling characters apart an issue with anything other than the face? Say if you have soldiers but their helmets are all different colors or things like that.
Also, and if making this question is Ok.., would a character like Astrobot be also hard to read when it comes to his expressions?

images

I hope these questions are not out of place, I just want to know. I am not directly involved in any section that is affected by it (UX not character artist) but I work in games and this is quite interesting.
Again, sorry if these questions were inappropriate. Feel free to ignore them if so. And thanks for letting us know this, I think many people weren't aware of this.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
I must admit I didn't know this.
Is telling characters apart an issue with anything other than the face? Say if you have soldiers but their helmets are all different colors or things like that.
Also, and if making this question is Ok.., would a character like Astrobot be also hard to read when it comes to his expressions?

images

I hope these questions are not out of place, I just want to know. I am not directly involved in any section that is affected by it (UX not character artist) but I work in games and this is quite interesting.
Again, sorry if these questions were inappropriate. Feel free to ignore them if so. And thanks for letting us know this, I think many people weren't aware of this.

Please, don't feel embarrassed by asking questions. I did make this thread for spreading awareness after all. There has been research done about recognition of the other recognizable body parts (hands/feet), but that research has proved inconclusive.

I used to be into Halo and I could tell those guys apart, but it primarily relates to the face and it's expressions. As for the cute robot, no, I think I would be able to see his expressions. They seem exaggerated and cartoonish, which isn't usually a problem for me. The issue mostly arises the nearer to life it becomes. For example, I have a really hard time differentiating between sniffles, twitches, and held back crying.
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,449
For those unaware of the condition, prosopagnosia is a cognitive disability that impairs the function of an individual to recognize either faces in associative manner or imaginative. For example, I need to rely on my friends' haircuts to recognize them, but when they end up getting a makeover I'm rendered completely lost. Although I can eventually get a sense of familiarity with others' faces, this usually requires years of being around them. For years I thought people were messing with me when they could see faces in clouds. Don't even get me started bald people and crowds. Dunkirk was an absolute nightmare to watch.

Early on in my life I was diagnosed with NVLD (Nonverbal Learning Disorder), another cognitive impairment, but one that makes it exceptionally difficult for me to read body cues. Subtle facial expressions just pass me by. I need someone to be outright crying for me to tell whether they're sad. Total mess. What I really want to discuss though is the impact of increasing graphic fidelity paired with motion capture technology and how that affects my experience with AAA gaming.

Until about 2013/2014 games relied on exaggerated movement to convey emotion and stylized, distinctive models in order to separate characters from one another. This I could follow. Much like Silver Age comics, a great deal was needed to communicate very little. However, with the advent of eighth-generation consoles, companies were able to expand their technology with a leap and bound. Take Wolfenstein: The New Order as an example. BJ's small, quiet smiles were lost on me and side characters became a jumble with their matching clothes and haircuts. I became hopelessly lost.

As the generation went on, these problems became more pronounced. When I finally played Hellblade last year, I was incredibly unnerved. Sesuna was unknown to me, the realistic face unreadable. Graphic prowess had finally become too much to grasp. The same situation occurred in RDR2 and The Last of Us 2 footage. In the rush to capture realism, I have been left behind, unable to follow the characters.

Yes, I know this is mainly just a "me issue" and I don't want to take away from what others are excited by. However, I wanted to share my experience and apprehension of where the next generation will go for me. I predict by the end of the nineth-generation I will be no longer able to play AAA games with their rapidly advancing tech.
I can't provide any enlightenment but I read this late last night and felt compelled to reply. I could never imagine how deep this affects you or makes you feel in your daily life. I never even knew these impairments existed.

As I understand it, as visuals become more realistic you're less able to relate to characters or how they may feel in any particular situation. I guess this mean that games with a strong art style are more successful at communicating who they are, how they are and what they are trying to emphasise.

Subtitles would help but they don't really impart urgency or communicate subtle emotion. It's just text to read.

Most AAA games are skewed to more realistic environments so characters also need to look suitable, which is a problem. There are a number of good games with strong art styles but they generally fall outside typical realistic storylines.

What about games that generally have faceless characters but a strong identity like Destiny? Most times people wear armour that covers faces and the style of their armour gives clues as to who they are and how they operate.
 
OP
OP
May 17, 2019
2,649
I can't provide any enlightenment but I read this late last night and felt compelled to reply. I could never imagine how deep this affects you or makes you feel in your daily life. I never even knew these impairments existed.

As I understand it, as visuals become more realistic you're less able to relate to characters or how they may feel in any particular situation. I guess this mean that games with a strong art style are more successful at communicating who they are, how they are and what they are trying to emphasise.

Subtitles would help but they don't really impart urgency or communicate subtle emotion. It's just text to read.

Most AAA games are skewed to more realistic environments so characters also need to look suitable, which is a problem. There are a number of good games with strong art styles but they generally fall outside typical realistic storylines.

What about games that generally have faceless characters but a strong identity like Destiny? Most times people wear armour that covers faces and the style of their armour gives clues as to who they are and how they operate.

Given the lack of facial expressions, developers tend toward using "louder" movements to convey emotion. So, yes, games with heavy costuming work well for me.
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,449
Given the lack of facial expressions, developers tend toward using "louder" movements to convey emotion. So, yes, games with heavy costuming work well for me.
Yeah, so that's when animation kicks in as a substitute.

Demon Souls, Bloodborne and Sekiro heavily relies on telegraphing attacks through animation and it has subtitles for story. That could be a game you'd enjoy, right?