This isn't right and is a very strange thing to say.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people are afraid of being seen as gay due to societal discrimination.
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The Phobic Crimes of Katsura Hashino (Director/Producer, ATLUS)
- Thread starter ASaiyan
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This isn't right and is a very strange thing to say.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people are afraid of being seen as gay due to societal discrimination.
It is right, and it's a completely fair thing to say.
If your reaction to homophobia is not "homophobia is bad", and instead is "PLEASE DONT MISTAKE ME FOR THIS MARGINALIZED GROUP OF PEOPLE. I DON'T DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE THEM." then you're homophobic.
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Naoto's story wasn't about being trans, hers was about sexism. That's not to say it wasn't handled poorly, or that her story doesn't resonate with trans people (myself included), but she does not identify as male.
This is very true. Regardless of Kanji's sexuality, many of his scenes are plastered with gay "coding". There are sections where he is coded as a girl, but it's obvious that the game's sense of humour equates that with homosexuality, even in spite of the goddamn message of Kanji's social link.
...if everyone thinks that you're gay it doesn't matter what you are, you're treated as one.
Yosuke always struck me as a cunt, plain and simple, and the other examples are (I think) very uh.. japanese. The Ann arc in P5 is baffling because yeah it kinda breaks the good will the group got for taking out scummy adults. I never saw the max confidant arc tho, so I hoped that would be explained a bit in that.
Catherine is terrible tho. You're supposed to shape the MC's action through the game by answering to questions and then he just fucking slaps someone for being a cross-dressing boy? Whew.
aka Homophobia
The correct response is treat everyone with respect. There is no case to be made for straight men being mistaken as gay to be victims. They are not.
Then you have to think about why it's considered "bad" to be considered gay the first place, and more importantly, how much worse it is for people who are gay.
because no matter how persecuted you think you are, you are not as persecuted as the ones who actually are persecuted by law and society.
These type of situations made Persona 4 hard to play. Did not like how Yosuke was, ans how Kanji and Naoto was handled. I will only be interested in playing the classic personal games before 3. That scene listed in the OPs post from P3 is horrible, and everything I have heard about P5 has not made me any more interested.
Being treated as gay = homophobia inflicted on you, whether you are gay or not.
"Don't treat me as gay [because it's wrong]" = you're being homophobic
"Don't treat me like this [because queer people should be treated as equal]" = ok
If this is what you meant sorry, it's a working Sunday morning.
I mean you gotta define what being treated as gay means. Do people think you talk funny or are you being sent to gay therapy camps?
For what it is worth, this entire series came about from a licensed game adaptation of a smutty, ultraviolent power fantasy proto-light novel. The traditional gender roles and weird sexualization has been there since the start.
While I like a lot of Atlus stuff and don't want to rain on your parade, unfortunately pandering to otaku wish fulfillment is in MegaTen's design. Even if for a while it seemed like it might escape those origins.
Don't read them, they are like reading a 15 year old's idea of what a 'dark and mature' story should be like. The sex stuff is very uncomfortable and the prose is really bad.
You know that "actually gay" people are not the only ones persecuted for this, right? Of course you could steer clear if you're heterosexual, but when people decide you're gay you're targeted as one, who cares if you actually engage in same gender sex or not.
Also asking people to not mischaracter your sexuality shouldn't be seen as homophobic.
PS: Not talking about therapeutic gay camps, no, where the hell do you live
That's what I said above.
Straight men who don't want to be mistaken as gay because they know how gay men are treated are just continuing that homophobia. "I don't deserve to be treated like this" instead of the correct "no one deserves to be treated like this."
If being gay was widely considered to be a completely normal thing (as it should be) these attitudes wouldn't exist.
I was waiting for the bus once, in a MGS 3 shirt that said "Hungry for some snake?" which some guy took to mean something it didn't. At this point, I'd been waiting years for that to happen lol
A first world country.
https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/prog...apy-happening-in-australia-in-secret/10371550
And it's happening in other first world countries too, believe me.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...he-global-epidemic-of-lgbt-conversion-therapy
That's lame, especially because his games are good and well received. I play their games but everytime I come across something like that, I'm like "Nooooo, don't do that, you are ruining your hard work !!!". It seems so retrograde and sour my opinion on the game. That's also why I don't really get the Mother 3 controversy around Magypsises : they are strong, reliable characters in that game. I agree the sprite work is a bit ""heavy handed" in order to convey the "neither male or female" feeling (they are not trans)...but it's not outright insulting like the Persona Team games.
I appreciate the lengthy response ShironRedshift but I do have a few rebuttles.
Based on my memory Yosuke is the only character to negatively see Kanji's sexuality. The protagonist does not do it, the girls don't do it, the supporting cast doesn't do it. Kanji stated that some of the other girls and people in his neighbourhood often bullied him about his "fenimine" hobby but those were painted as people in the wrong. Yes, Yosuke did and said some awful things but this was not the entire cast painting Kanji has something bad.
That's just plain not true. The Investgation team (including Kanji) reacted to the reveal as being shocked and while they originally didn't understand it they came to accept it once she explained why she felt the need to dress as a boy. The only thing Kanji expresses during that entire scene is shocked at the revelation and concern about Naoto's safety. No "huge relief moment" anywhere.
Kanji himself states that it was never about boys or girls but the fear of being rejected for who he was. He was never fearful of being gay or doing "feminime" things but how others would see him. If he truely was scared of being gay he would have stopped doing the things he would consider feminime instead of hide them like he does in the game.
But he kind of is? There is not one single time he has been attracted or interested in anyone else, male or female throughout the entire game except for Naoto. Not during the camping trip. Not during the nightclub. Not during the pagent.
I agree with alot of the stuff you're saying (especially concerning Yosuke) but to say that "being gay is being treated as a bad thing all the way through" is a bit of an over-exaggeration
Based on my memory Yosuke is the only character to negatively see Kanji's sexuality. The protagonist does not do it, the girls don't do it, the supporting cast doesn't do it. Kanji stated that some of the other girls and people in his neighbourhood often bullied him about his "fenimine" hobby but those were painted as people in the wrong. Yes, Yosuke did and said some awful things but this was not the entire cast painting Kanji has something bad.
That's just plain not true. The Investgation team (including Kanji) reacted to the reveal as being shocked and while they originally didn't understand it they came to accept it once she explained why she felt the need to dress as a boy. The only thing Kanji expresses during that entire scene is shocked at the revelation and concern about Naoto's safety. No "huge relief moment" anywhere.
Kanji himself states that it was never about boys or girls but the fear of being rejected for who he was. He was never fearful of being gay or doing "feminime" things but how others would see him. If he truely was scared of being gay he would have stopped doing the things he would consider feminime instead of hide them like he does in the game.
But he kind of is? There is not one single time he has been attracted or interested in anyone else, male or female throughout the entire game except for Naoto. Not during the camping trip. Not during the nightclub. Not during the pagent.
I agree with alot of the stuff you're saying (especially concerning Yosuke) but to say that "being gay is being treated as a bad thing all the way through" is a bit of an over-exaggeration
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I think the issue of Kanji and Naoto boils down to, characters feeling trapped by the expectations of their gender and overcoming it is a great storyline, but the problem is both tend to lean into homophobic/transphobic elements and imagery, whether or not they intend to. On paper, there is nothing wrong with a story about guy who feels ridiculed and emasculated because he likes typically feminine things, or a girl who feels she cannot be taken seriously in her field because of her gender. But the execution certainly can feel offputting.
The Magypsies surely cross the line in good taste considering there is a scene that jokingly implies they are molesting Lucas in a hot spring.
The Magypsies surely cross the line in good taste considering there is a scene that jokingly implies they are molesting Lucas in a hot spring.
Did you happen to forget this part where Kanji begs Naoto to be in the beauty pageant just to clear his doubts and make him a man?
Re: Kanji & Naoto.
The storylines of both of them are about themes definitely worth exploring. But surely those stories could have been written without throwing LGBT under the bus as violently as they do. The game does "hey we imply this is about LGBT themes but LOL actually nevermind" twice. It was very disappointing.
The storylines of both of them are about themes definitely worth exploring. But surely those stories could have been written without throwing LGBT under the bus as violently as they do. The game does "hey we imply this is about LGBT themes but LOL actually nevermind" twice. It was very disappointing.
Oh yes, that scene was awkward. I totally forgot about it...it was so "out of character" and out of nowhere. I don't know what an earth happened in Ito's mind when he thought that would be funny.
Thanks for the thread OP. Good to get the major points outlined in one place. Full Body is very, VERY bad, but even if you could explain away its bullshit as being an innocent mistake, there's definitely a pattern here.
I wanna give a shout out to a few things not mentioned in the OP. In Persona 4 Dancing all night, which he didn't direct, but he did produce according to wikipedia, there's this gay dance instructor who pretty much fulfills every gay stereotype in the book? He flirts with everyone, he's very camp, his design is super duper colourful, he's... well he's a dance instructor. He's honestly not that harmful compared to some of the stuff mentioned here (At least he seems to be liked by the main cast despite a fair bit of othering going on), but if we're talking about trends then I figure this is worth mentioning.
Also, Lala-chan in Persona 5. I know a lot of people like her. *I* like her. But with the trend established, I'm gonna call Persona 5 out here. In any other game I wouldn't read into this so much, but I ran out of trust ages ago, so here we go. There's a scene in Makoto's social link where she and the protagonist visit her bar. I forget the details, they're not important, but they get into a conversation where Lala-chan talks about her time as a little girl. Makoto's reaction to this is just... shock.
This isn't talked about afterwards.
There isn't a follow up line that establishes that Makoto is very sheltered, and thus she reacted inappropriately.
This is a punchline. A bad one.
It's my belief that Lala-chan only ended up largely pretty ok, because she doesn't get enough screentime. Because imo, the cracks are showing already.
(Also, Kanji is my boy, IN MY HEART HE'S BI, but realistically he's not in actuality. It's pretty queer baity tbh.)
I wanna give a shout out to a few things not mentioned in the OP. In Persona 4 Dancing all night, which he didn't direct, but he did produce according to wikipedia, there's this gay dance instructor who pretty much fulfills every gay stereotype in the book? He flirts with everyone, he's very camp, his design is super duper colourful, he's... well he's a dance instructor. He's honestly not that harmful compared to some of the stuff mentioned here (At least he seems to be liked by the main cast despite a fair bit of othering going on), but if we're talking about trends then I figure this is worth mentioning.
Also, Lala-chan in Persona 5. I know a lot of people like her. *I* like her. But with the trend established, I'm gonna call Persona 5 out here. In any other game I wouldn't read into this so much, but I ran out of trust ages ago, so here we go. There's a scene in Makoto's social link where she and the protagonist visit her bar. I forget the details, they're not important, but they get into a conversation where Lala-chan talks about her time as a little girl. Makoto's reaction to this is just... shock.
This isn't talked about afterwards.
There isn't a follow up line that establishes that Makoto is very sheltered, and thus she reacted inappropriately.
This is a punchline. A bad one.
It's my belief that Lala-chan only ended up largely pretty ok, because she doesn't get enough screentime. Because imo, the cracks are showing already.
(Also, Kanji is my boy, IN MY HEART HE'S BI, but realistically he's not in actuality. It's pretty queer baity tbh.)
Reading this thread I agree with a lot of the criticism people have over Hashino. I can't hate Hashino though because I'm unsure if he's actively malicious in this representation.
I'm a cis-male, I don't know what it's like to be trans, so when I played Persona 3 originally I thought the beach scene was funny.
I didn't start to think about the implications it has until reading the posts on ERA. Which I appreciate.
When I played Persona 4 I though Kanji's arc was revolutionary, truly a first in mainstream gaming to tackle such important subject matter. I relate to Kanji a lot actually in many ways. Including being unsure of my sexuality. Now I know I'm bi and that's okay but for a long time I was constantly looking for evidence that I was straight, that I was NORMAL. So Persona 4 is special to me that in that regard. Even if Yosuke is a total dingus but my best friend in high school was like Yosuke in that regard. So it just felt realistic, he should have been challenged though.
Kanji's arc has a lot of problems that everyone has raised that I agree with. I'm disappointed Kanji wasn't officially gay. It would have been amazing. I don't think Kanji isn't gay because Hashino hates LGBT people.
I think Hashino is a dumb straight dude who views the world through a dumb straight dude lens.
I'm not defending Hashino here. When I was ignorant on these issues myself, I was still wrong. Hashino is still wrong. I just don't think it's malicious but just plain dumb straight cis-dude ignorance. So I can't support the idea of Hashino being ejected from the industry. Losing his job and his creative outlet because on certain issues he's an idiot.
I just want him to stop writing this shit. He knows nothing and should refrain from writing about these topics. But aside from that I like his other stuff.
I'm a cis-male, I don't know what it's like to be trans, so when I played Persona 3 originally I thought the beach scene was funny.
I didn't start to think about the implications it has until reading the posts on ERA. Which I appreciate.
When I played Persona 4 I though Kanji's arc was revolutionary, truly a first in mainstream gaming to tackle such important subject matter. I relate to Kanji a lot actually in many ways. Including being unsure of my sexuality. Now I know I'm bi and that's okay but for a long time I was constantly looking for evidence that I was straight, that I was NORMAL. So Persona 4 is special to me that in that regard. Even if Yosuke is a total dingus but my best friend in high school was like Yosuke in that regard. So it just felt realistic, he should have been challenged though.
Kanji's arc has a lot of problems that everyone has raised that I agree with. I'm disappointed Kanji wasn't officially gay. It would have been amazing. I don't think Kanji isn't gay because Hashino hates LGBT people.
I think Hashino is a dumb straight dude who views the world through a dumb straight dude lens.
I'm not defending Hashino here. When I was ignorant on these issues myself, I was still wrong. Hashino is still wrong. I just don't think it's malicious but just plain dumb straight cis-dude ignorance. So I can't support the idea of Hashino being ejected from the industry. Losing his job and his creative outlet because on certain issues he's an idiot.
I just want him to stop writing this shit. He knows nothing and should refrain from writing about these topics. But aside from that I like his other stuff.
Geez what happened to Tomm is horrific.
And while a lot of evidence compiled does show Hashino to have regressive social views, perhaps the blame doesn't rest with one individual, even though it's likely that even with that disclaimer, at best he would still be complicit.
These are lengthy games but in addition to the small scenes, the underlying attitude is evident.
I thought Yosuke was a pretty realistic depiction of a specific type of teenage boy, but forgot about him buying bathing suits for the girls. Probably a little much.
I never thought of Yosuke as cool or aspirational, he seems like kind of a loser.
But regardless, clearly there's a pattern with attitudes expressed in games under this director. Nice work rounding it all up.
I never thought of Yosuke as cool or aspirational, he seems like kind of a loser.
But regardless, clearly there's a pattern with attitudes expressed in games under this director. Nice work rounding it all up.
User Banned (2 weeks): Trolling across multiple threads, accumulated infractions
Amazing thread. Atlus will sure take notice of it.
I've talked about the shopkeepers Manakins before. Others have talked about the racism that's present in the game. Nocturne is not safe from this.
In Digital Devil Saga, your only female member on the team has mouth tits in demon form, yikes.
Whether we can put the blame on Hashino for these issues as well, I don't know. It's true Hashino has been part of the environment Atlus built and gave him the room to express his narrow minded views.
As a creator he ventured into something far from his comfort zone and it's noticeable. The worst part might be the willingness to keep including it while still being that ignorant in these matters.
When Persona 4 first hit, I thought it at least felt progressive within a Japanese context. There was a lot to critique about the conclusion of Kanji and Naoto's arcs through the lens of western LGBT politics, but through a Japanese lens, where gender norms are a lot stricter, stories about a boy with feminine interests assuming he must be gay, or a girl with masculine career goals deciding it's better to falsely live as a man than try to go forward with her career as a woman make sense, even if both those stories will read as very disappointing to a Westerner, who will read them as bordering on LGBT conversion stories.
However, over the subsequent releases of Catherine and Persona 5, that benefit of the doubt is pretty much gone, and it's pretty clear that any progressivism you could find in P4 was just incidental. Any non-heteronormativity in these games is a punchline, and everyone's triumphant moment of self-realization will always amount to them accepting society's prescribed role for them.
This release of Catherine seems to really be where it's crossing a line into outright trolling their critics, by not just remaining stagnant on these issues but really leaning further into everything people criticized about the Erica stuff in the original. I wouldn't hold it against anyone who still enjoys all these games, since they're huge games with a lot of aspects to them other than their disrespectful LGBT plots, but I definitely think if you were someone (like I was) who may have initially thought they were trying and would get better over time, they're not, and they won't.
However, over the subsequent releases of Catherine and Persona 5, that benefit of the doubt is pretty much gone, and it's pretty clear that any progressivism you could find in P4 was just incidental. Any non-heteronormativity in these games is a punchline, and everyone's triumphant moment of self-realization will always amount to them accepting society's prescribed role for them.
This release of Catherine seems to really be where it's crossing a line into outright trolling their critics, by not just remaining stagnant on these issues but really leaning further into everything people criticized about the Erica stuff in the original. I wouldn't hold it against anyone who still enjoys all these games, since they're huge games with a lot of aspects to them other than their disrespectful LGBT plots, but I definitely think if you were someone (like I was) who may have initially thought they were trying and would get better over time, they're not, and they won't.
Man, I did notice some of the stuff in P-
Studio games, but I never saw them as so blatant as they are. This is absolutely awful.
The thing about P5 is, those scenes are a tiny fraction of the at least 80 hour experience and, as the OP noted, feels almost shoehorned in. It does feels totally out of place both times it happens.
I always wondered what the point of those scenes was, but now I know
Studio games, but I never saw them as so blatant as they are. This is absolutely awful.
The thing about P5 is, those scenes are a tiny fraction of the at least 80 hour experience and, as the OP noted, feels almost shoehorned in. It does feels totally out of place both times it happens.
I always wondered what the point of those scenes was, but now I know
This is a very fair point that I fully agree. The writing is written at best very poorly and at worst through a homophobic lens.
It's just unfortunate that people like me apparently have imaginary problems according to some here. If you believe gender is a spectrum you have accept the entire spectrum. It sucks feeling unwelcome in a place that's supposed to be inclusive.
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Did you happen to forget this part where Kanji begs Naoto to be in the beauty pageant just to clear his doubts and make him a man?
Ouch!
You don't think somebody is a victim when somebody mistake's their sexuality? Okay, that hurts.
Nice write up, OP.
I guess what's been bumming me for a while with his games is that he doesn't erase openly LGBT+ issues the way most games do, he goes out of his way to expose them, 100% fumbles it and people go looking for a generous explanation because he had the guts to "tackle" these issues, when they're just a shitty prop.
I guess what's been bumming me for a while with his games is that he doesn't erase openly LGBT+ issues the way most games do, he goes out of his way to expose them, 100% fumbles it and people go looking for a generous explanation because he had the guts to "tackle" these issues, when they're just a shitty prop.
Thank you OP for this. Having played through all of the modern Persona games I've seen most everything covered here, but putting it all together definitely makes it clear there's a real and concerning pattern going on. How much of this is down to just Hashino I'm not sure (Yuichiroh Tanaka is the sole writer on many of Hashino's projects), but as someone in a directorial/producer role he's in a position where he could've easily said "not on my watch".
What's the current societal/cultural climate in Japan these days? Some of Hashino's comments about Full Body give me a sense he feels empowered by Abe's election in 2012 (and the rise of far-right view internationally since) but I'm not familiar with Japanese culture beyond what's presented in media and world news to know if that's the case.
What's the current societal/cultural climate in Japan these days? Some of Hashino's comments about Full Body give me a sense he feels empowered by Abe's election in 2012 (and the rise of far-right view internationally since) but I'm not familiar with Japanese culture beyond what's presented in media and world news to know if that's the case.
Could it be possible to contact Atlus directly to help getting the word out, maybe via petition?
Thank you so much!! I genuinely felt like OP completely misunderstood Kanji's character arc.
Uh, just a quick note: to say that Kanji never expresses interest in anyone but Naoto isn't true if you factor in the spinoffs. I think he's into... one of the new female characters in Dancing All Night. I honestly forget the details, the plot in that game is not super memorable.
It could be said that it's a spinoff, and the writing isn't up to par anyway, but surely if this is such an important part of his character, there'd be a note somewhere saying "hey fam Kanji is only into Naoto".
It could be said that it's a spinoff, and the writing isn't up to par anyway, but surely if this is such an important part of his character, there'd be a note somewhere saying "hey fam Kanji is only into Naoto".
I interpreted Kanji's attraction to Naoto as a result of both their arcs dealing with gender norms and societal expectations. I think Kanji is attracted to Naoto because she's dealing with some of the same issues he is. That said, I don't disagree with the LGBTQ reads for either character and the problems that arise from the way they're handled.
Except he was attracted to her before he know what her issues were and before he knew she identified as a woman.
What the fuck? Not wanting to be perceived as something you are not means you hate people from that group you are being perceived as? This is some bullshit.
From Japan as in having grown up there? I think there's only Gachapin, actually.
Straight people are not victimized.
If you have a problem with a random people mistaking you for gay, it's because you understand how gay people are treated (read: horribly) and don't want to experience that. Otherwise why would you care? The people close to you would already know the truth.
Instead of worrying someone might think you're gay, fight for a world where gay people can live without fear of being persecuted.
Just here to thank the OP, both for this thread and for the petition addressed to the mods, you've done a great job illustrating the problems with each and every one of these Hashino games, ASaiyan.
I'll be steering clear of this man of course, and any games he or P Studio works on. And now I'll have a handy collection of every instance of this backwards man's beliefs anytime it comes up in conversation.
I'll be steering clear of this man of course, and any games he or P Studio works on. And now I'll have a handy collection of every instance of this backwards man's beliefs anytime it comes up in conversation.
Individuals are absolutely victimized regardless of their sexuality. This is some generalized bullshit you're posting right now. How can you even assume the person in question has anyone close to them at all or that they would be so understanding?
Understanding of them being straight? What does this mean?
You realize this is about straight men being worried someone thinks they're gay right?
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