I appreciate this, thanks. WTF does he even mean by "society was in a different place", does he think he's doing good with his bs somehow?
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The Phobic Crimes of Katsura Hashino (Director/Producer, ATLUS)
- Thread starter ASaiyan
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Think bigger than just atlus.
People should watch some videos of random japanese people talking about LGBT rights. E.g
You're take away is likely to be surprised at how openly some people discriminate, and how "friendly faced" it is. People dont think being gay is bad for example, just that its strange and not normal. And being not normal in Japan is bad. This kind of stuff can easily make it into media, because it doesnt have to come from a place of hatefulness.
And ftr the whole petition thing in the OP is the opposite of what should be done. I dont think the new Erica thing should even be spoilered, the only way a company will change is if its forced to. Hiding the issue is not gonna force them to do that, the mainstream gaming sites will be too fuckin scared to alienate parts of their audience by standing up to this.
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To the Catherine quote, I saw multiple users independently reference it in the ongoing megathread, but I could not independently find a link to a primary source. It could be that it is not available in English, or that I simply did not scour Google hard enough; I would urge anyone who has such a link to send it my way, as primary sources are always preferable to secondhand ones.
With regards to the Persona quote, I can concede that there are multiple ways to interpret that response. However, going back to it, I noticed you snipped a final comment from Soejima, which is arguably the most questionable line of the exchange:
Tf does this even mean??? He was so horned-up that he couldn't see girls as people?
Thank you! I will add this to the OP.
i believe people are referencing this:
https://personacentral.com/catherin...e-voice-actors-for-catherine-over-500-stages/
obviously this is a summary of a famitsu article originally in japanese, so if anyone actually has access to that famitsu article and could provide a direct quote, that would be very welcome
This is perhaps the most important thing ever said about Persona 4's interpretation and it's the biggest most embarrassing failing of the fanbase that they not only ignored the central message of Kanji's arc, but that so many willfully did so in favor of chasing the "is he, isn't he" fanbait. It's awful, though, because the point made in Kanji's story is an important one, and the people for whom the message was intended brushed it aside to prove the arc's point, which was unintentional (I hope), but still a stain on the fanbase.
The Scoobies interpret what they see on TV as people's deepest and innermost insecurities, but the fact that they resolve the issue with their shadow by acknowledging it is largely coincidental. No, Mayonaka TV is
revealed to be a collective human headspace where it shows what everyone else thinks of the targets, and people are having wild thoughts because these individuals all ended up on the news or in the public eye before their initial appearance after dark.
So Kanji's shadow isn't his fear, it's what other people think of him (and aren't people just known to be wonderful and positive about others?) and his story is about the shape of masculinity, and how it might look different from person to person because it's okay to like what you like and it doesn't mean you're anything other than what you believe yourself to be just because you like things deemed feminine. It's a rather sweet message, but the fanbase? They took the initial interpretation and ran with it, oh, did they ever. Suddenly, the whole thing about it being okay to like things was interrupted by people with "....but is he gay?" just like the people who saw Kanji on TV, and suddenly the whole message was lost, like OH he likes sewing and dolls welp he must be GAY HUH and if that's what people took away from the story, then yeah, the message was intended for them, specifically, and they unwittingly assisted in proving the arc's point in light of the lategame reveal of Mayonaka TV's true nature. The whole point is that IT DOESN'T MATTER if he's gay and people still ruminate over it in spite of his arc's message. Truly disappointing.
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you've misinterpreted how the shadow world and midnight channel work.
the only part of the midnight channel that's just "people's collective headspace making something appear" is when people start appearing on the midnight channel after they appeared on TV. the filler shadows are also borne from the collective unconscious of people. however, the individual shadows that emerge once people enter the TV world are still a manifestation of their own insecurities, not "what other people think of them." see: rise's shadow being about wanting people to see who she really is, which obviously most people wouldn't have known, or yosuke... having a shadow at all, really, being a nobody.
Well, yeah, you're attacking a Japanese man, for making a Japanese game, that is primarily made to appeal to Japanese people, with cultural sensibilities which are common IN JAPAN. And, all that you are doing with this thread is enforcing the stereotype that Americans are the World Police, which is an aspect of American culture that, I thought, we were trying to counter and extinguish for the past decade.
Sentiments don't magically stop being harmful because of popularity.
Nice first post, by the way.
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I was gonna reply but I guess this was just an anti-Era troll account, lol.
How are they harmful? Japan has some of the lowest crime rates in the world, they're paying off their national debt, they still retain a strong culture identity of who they are and where they come from, creators are able to freely publish whatever works they want (Whether through official publications, cultural events, or the internet)...
Who are we to criticize THEM?
Oh man we're gonna get an influx of people with anime avatars here now won't we.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/26/gay-suicide-japan-mp-stopping-priority-live-tv/
Bigotry is harmful to the targets of bigotry. This has nothing to do with the crime rate or the national debt, and if you didn't know it, you wouldn't have brought it up.
Additionally, who is "we"? There are people from Japan that post on this website.
So with that OP that man's actions are indefensible I feel. It's all laid out bare, we have LGBT expressing the issue with our representation for people to see as well.
Though I am not foolish enough to assume that is merely enough as we don't live in a kind enough and accepting world for it to be so easy.
Though I am not foolish enough to assume that is merely enough as we don't live in a kind enough and accepting world for it to be so easy.
Don't worry, my anime avatar has a N64 logo on it so it means I'm a good person!
It just hit me what "they still retain a strong culture identity of who they are and where they come from, creators are able to freely publish whatever works they want (Whether through official publications, cultural events, or the internet)" is about. So it's going to be those.
User Banned (Permanent): Trolling; Excusing Bigotry; Account in Junior Phase
QUESTION: Have you ever TRIED to figure out why Japan has this view, or are you just going to be outraged because someone said something that you didn't like?Pink News said:
Kanji isn't gay.
That never was what is story was about.
It's about toxic masculinity, about the fact that a "man" seemingly can't like "feminine" things without being judged for it or immediatly categorize as being gay by others.
Although, I get it, it would have been cool for representation to have him be a gay man. But that's not who he is and I would say that the people that keep thinking he's gay because he likes "feminine" things are basically the problem that the story of this character is talking about.
Now, I do not condone or accept Hashino's views in the slightest, most of his work is disturbing and of terribly bad taste. I don't think he's homophobic but I do believe he should stop trying to touch these subjects since it's pretty clear that he's doesn't have a clue how to properly talk about them.
That never was what is story was about.
It's about toxic masculinity, about the fact that a "man" seemingly can't like "feminine" things without being judged for it or immediatly categorize as being gay by others.
Although, I get it, it would have been cool for representation to have him be a gay man. But that's not who he is and I would say that the people that keep thinking he's gay because he likes "feminine" things are basically the problem that the story of this character is talking about.
Now, I do not condone or accept Hashino's views in the slightest, most of his work is disturbing and of terribly bad taste. I don't think he's homophobic but I do believe he should stop trying to touch these subjects since it's pretty clear that he's doesn't have a clue how to properly talk about them.
Nothing of value was lost. Although I am disappointed the mods decided on not banning Atlus discussion. They're a vile and harmful company that have hurt me and countless others immensely, putting out games you enjoy doesn't excuse that. With all due respect, it's hypocritical.
Yeah, thanks for the thread ASaiyan
You obviously put a lot of time and effort into this. You're doing great work!
As a gay dude, I remember being so disappointed with Kanji's outcome in P4.
He was my favorite character, mostly because I was aware of how he felt about being confused with his sexuality. I was amazed by having a character that I could finally identify as. I got very unconfortable with every homophobic joke and situations the game presented, but I genuinely thought it was going for a single absolute conclusion: he was going to accept his sexuality and finally be cool with it, and his friends would support it.
Imagine how disappointed I was with the outcome. The mental gymnastics they made not to acknoledge him as a gay man was so, so disappointing. I honestly got sad because there I was, finally having some representation, and then I felt cheated by the game.
Now, thanks God I actually played it after having accepted myself and finding someone that I loved and having supporting parents (played on PS3), but I keep thinking to myself how someone that was still discovering about themselves felt. I think about my boyfriend which has some serious acceptance issues, and I try to imagine him playing it, how the game portrayl of Kanji would affect him.
Anyways... it is actually quite sad. Because I love Persona 4. It is one of my favorite games ever. Kanji is also still my favorite character. But I feel he was not allowed to be what he really was. Basically, he is canonically gay for me :)
Still hasnt played P5. Sad to read about the issues.
He was my favorite character, mostly because I was aware of how he felt about being confused with his sexuality. I was amazed by having a character that I could finally identify as. I got very unconfortable with every homophobic joke and situations the game presented, but I genuinely thought it was going for a single absolute conclusion: he was going to accept his sexuality and finally be cool with it, and his friends would support it.
Imagine how disappointed I was with the outcome. The mental gymnastics they made not to acknoledge him as a gay man was so, so disappointing. I honestly got sad because there I was, finally having some representation, and then I felt cheated by the game.
Now, thanks God I actually played it after having accepted myself and finding someone that I loved and having supporting parents (played on PS3), but I keep thinking to myself how someone that was still discovering about themselves felt. I think about my boyfriend which has some serious acceptance issues, and I try to imagine him playing it, how the game portrayl of Kanji would affect him.
Anyways... it is actually quite sad. Because I love Persona 4. It is one of my favorite games ever. Kanji is also still my favorite character. But I feel he was not allowed to be what he really was. Basically, he is canonically gay for me :)
Still hasnt played P5. Sad to read about the issues.
You're completely right, but it was presented in a way that was extremely similar to what someone who's actually gay might go through. I read him as being bi, as he reveals at the end of his social link that the shadow boss you fight "is him" and he struggles with his shadow again in Arena when trying to suppress his thoughts when he fights Akihiko, but ultimately it's never followed up on. In an interview in the Persona 4 strategy guide they say his sexuality is meant to be ambiguous but I've seen people in another thread say he was called straight in a different interview so yeah
And for the record the ultra-specific vitriol towards Hashino reminds me of some of the alt right incidents where they target one person for their problem with a game. To clarify I'm not talking about the message of this post, nor am I saying it's anything like the harassment in those cases. Rather, the part I'm reminded of is the compulsion to select one specific person as the root of a problem in a project (or projects) that contain many other people.
The problems the thread is about absolutely might be due to Hashino's influence alone, and even if they aren't 't he clearly does not care about them. But saying "all of these problems are the work of this heinous criminal! Direct your hate here!" so specifically doesn't really sit right with me. I dunno, maybe it's a me problem.
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That would kill multiple communities on the forum and prevent discussion on a massive range of games, some of which have nothing to do with Hashino. It would literally tear the site( which may I remind you only exists because if the communities) apart.
Again, Kanji's sexuality doesn't excuse the almost constant gay panic thrown in his direction form the group.
Like, you are straight up forgetting the scene where Yosuke doesn't want to sleep in the same tent with Kanji because he's afraid Kanji will sexually assault him.
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Omg. Wasn't me, lol. I only vandalize Wikipedia for silly reasons (like when I get in an argument about whether the Monopoly board is based on New York City or Atlantic City and I don't want to admit I was wrong).Okay which one of you did it
Now that's a level of petty that we should all strive towards.
Atlus needs to be asked about this directly. They've been exploiting gay and trans people with almost no consequence for years. Instead of being held accountable, they're praised as the gold standard of Japanese gaming. It's very disturbing.
The Persona series used to be a favorite of mine, but I've soured on it almost completely. And the concept of the Catherine IP has so much potential but it's now permanent marred by bigotry.
They must apologize and they must change their ways. I hope people see why it's more important than ever to have positive gay and trans content in gaming.
The Persona series used to be a favorite of mine, but I've soured on it almost completely. And the concept of the Catherine IP has so much potential but it's now permanent marred by bigotry.
They must apologize and they must change their ways. I hope people see why it's more important than ever to have positive gay and trans content in gaming.
I see this sentiment thrown out all the time in relation to Japanese cultural norms and it drives me mad. I'm going to answer this question seriously just once so that people in the thread or in the future can quote it any time someone tries to justify Japanese games having shit politics.
These views began to pop up during the Meiji Restoration as Japan began adopting performative western cultures in pursuit of quote-unquote modernization. As this happened, the very fractured Japanese cultural identity and pageantry was forcefully unified top-down under an emperor that was placed into a largely useless but "powerful" position. This was by and large an attempt to forcefully bring together (and erase non-conforming) cultural aspects of a then extremely divided (and inconvenient) country under a stratified ruling class and national ideology. This is where many modern ideas of Japanese identity were first forged, and despite how anime or games or samurai novels might have had you think, was not actually a very romantic time period for the average individual. Almost no aspect of Japanese culture as it was went unscrutinized, not too unlike cultural revolutions in other countries around the world.
So to answer the question, yes, many people have tried to figure out why Japan has this view, and the answer is, like always, an arbitrary stratification of social values for the sake of nationalism.
If you'd like to read more about this subject, here are some good books to start with:
Najita Tetsuo's Japan
Fujitani Tak's Splendid Monarchy
The Autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi
Wim Lunsing's Beyond Common Sense: Sexuality and Gender in Contemporary Japan
Mishima Yukio's Forbidden Colors
Now if you want to get into the politics of age of consent in Japan we can definitely discuss Sankin Kotai and how the threat of rape and political marriage over time normalized the sexualization of both underaged girls and boys in Japan, and why defending that shit as a foreigner in the name of "understanding Japanese Culture" is pretty gross and implies a fundamental misunderstanding of Japanese cultural history to begin with. In short, most of these things defended as "cultural differences" are actually just patently awful and deserve criticism.
Now that that is out of the way, let's continue with the more important discussion on why Atlus needs to Get Better.
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It's New York City, but I was convinced it was Atlantic City. And for about a minute or two Wikipedia vouched for me.
Which one is it based on?
EDIT: Wait, it was actually the other way around, and I already forgot. That's how petty and insignificant this was. Lmao.
Like I said, I mixed it up, lol. The other poster is correct. Ironically I went back to Wikipedia to verify.
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Critical support for people who respond to trolls with actual effortful posts.
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It's a difficult subject to touch on, I believe. I'm a straigth man who likes a lot of "feminine" things.
And to this day, I'm still struggling with this fact because I keep getting harassed for this. LGBTQ people usually tries to tell me that I'm gay, that I just doesn't want to admit it, straigth people says that I'm not a "real man", that I'm a pussy.
Kanji is a good character imo, and I really feel for him since I'm in the same place as him.
Toxic masculinity is a terrible thing, it's a blight that never seem to go away and that's used by both straigth and LGBTQ people alike.
Maybe, but they don't deserve the platform as far as I'm concerned.
any suggestion that catherine/persona discussion, or worse atlus games as a whole, should be banned from era entirely are ridiculous. these games have major issues, undoubtedly, but it's important to be able to discuss those issues. the games are also much more than just their problems - there's lots of positive messages people both queer and otherwise can and have taken from these games. many queer people are frustrated precisely because they love characters like kanji and naoto and erica and relate to them and wish they were handled better! there's plenty of people in the persona fandom who came to terms with their own sexuality or gender through these stories, as problematic as they may be. that's part of what makes the ways they shit the bed hurt even more.
like, the games that are banned on the forums are largely porn and fanservice games, or games that are explicitly about promoting hatred and bigotry (like, er, hatred). despite their glaring problems, persona and catherine are considerably more complex than that.
like, the games that are banned on the forums are largely porn and fanservice games, or games that are explicitly about promoting hatred and bigotry (like, er, hatred). despite their glaring problems, persona and catherine are considerably more complex than that.
The Kanji stuff was so weird and dissapointing. It started so strong and was really impressed that there was a Japanese game about accepting homosexuality. And then it backpedaled hard. And the Yosuke insulting Kanji stuff all game long is so weird in a game about accepting what makes you, you.
Okay which one of you did it
Pfft.
Oh and Monopoly is based on Atlantic City. I don't know why anyone says New York City.
Unfortunately, Atlus doesn't care about what the West thinks because they're a Japanese company. As far as I know the most pervasive homophobia and transphobia only comes from games Hashino has directed or produced, leaving all the rest of the SMT franchises and spinoffs largely blameless (please do not quote me on that, I am not extremely familiar with SMT and its spinoffs besides Persona).
Hashino is no longer the director of the Persona franchise. The new leader of the Persona team appears to be Persona 4: Arena's director Kazuhisa Wada. Only time will tell if he's better than Hashino, but the characterization in Persona 5 and Persona 3's dancing games looks mostly promising.
I'm not forgetting anything. It's a bad scene with awful writing. But Yosuke is a terrible person so it kind of makes sense.
I understand how that scene can make people feel disgusted by Yosuke and I would argue that it's the point of the scene.
Stories shouldn't be exempt of showing bad people having bad behaviors. And writers who writes homophobic characters aren't celebrating homophobia or are homophobic themselves, they're just writing.
Then why is the Narukami not given the option to be disgusted with Yosuke and instead entirely shares in his panic regardless of player input? This simple change would have made your point stand, but as it is presented in the game, it is framed as a legitimate fear, not as a reveal that Yosuke is a jerk and that the player can feel grossed out by him.
They should care, and the LGBT community in Japan deserves consideration too.
There is no cultural reason that excuses bigotry.
Yosuke is never held accountable for his virulent homophobia.
Usually when people write characters with flaws or phobias, they do it for a reason. Remind me, what purpose does Yosuke's wanton and rampant homophobia serve? Where does the rest of the cast check him when he starts attacking someone who is supposed to be his friend? The "they're just writing" shit doesn't hold up when it happens multiple times across multiple works. That's a theme.
Waving it off as "just writing" is some disingenuous shit that implies that nothing in the game has any merit because it's "just writing". There is ALWAYS intent. Always.
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