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Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
The "they're high school students, they bully!" argument falls apart when Kanji is basically the only one to face constant ridicule regarding his Shadow after the fact.

Imagine one of the friends calling Rise a stripper, accusing Chie of being "too much of a man", Yukiko an ice queen, or even rubbing in Teddie's insecurities. That basically never happens. Naoto is the only other one I can recall that faces similar "jokes", but they're far fewer than what Kanji receives.

For what it's worth I think Persona 4 is very much a product of its time (I can't imagine any game in any region that started production around 2006 handling its subject matter that much better) but yeah, it's inexcusable in a modern context. I still think, from experience, that Yosuke would have been a genuinely good character if they went through with the idea of him being closeted. They basically abandoned that though and I can only really tolerate parts of the games by relying on headcanon.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
They're still willing to do it even if you don't lol. It just turns out Namatame isn't the real dude. If he was, they would've offed him with no regrets.

Fighting a goddess doesn't mean these characters are morally infallible, I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

Why are you moving goalposts? I was talking about Yu, not the others.

Did you just miss my whole part where you're literally fighting an embodiment of society's lies and aversion to the truth. How does that not make you an avatar of morality.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,256
Midgar, With Love
Fucking hell. That was a sobering, disgusting read. It was also exceedingly well-written. Thank you so much for taking the time to create this thread, OP.

I don't even have words for this right now. I'm not going to work through my anger, though. I'm going to let it fester. And I am going to do whatever I can to raise awareness of this.
 
Feb 18, 2018
167
I think, at this point, Hashino is too powerful an influence at Atlus for him to be taken down. Persona 5 was a massive success and they've given his work the red carpet treatment for the past decade with re-releases and spin-offs and anime adaptations, etc. By all indications, they plan to release his games for the foreseeable future.

However, treating these themes like they don't exist or aren't extremely offensive and harmful to LGBTQ people would be wrong. I've played and been a fan of Hashino's games for years but always felt extremely uneasy around these parts of the games because I have friends and family who are harmed by these depictions, and coincidentally, one of those friends was the one who introduced me to the Persona series. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that the popping aesthetics, god-tier music and gripping gameplay of P3-5 + Catherine haven't been some of the greatest gaming experiences of my life. As shitty as this dude's attitudes are about LGBTQ people, I fuckin love the way he makes games. And I hate that I feel that way. Truly.

Having an honest discussion about it and condemning Atlus for this is my only hope that a clear message could be made to pressure Hashino to change his ways. Or at the very least remove the content for Western releases.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
If this guy isn't an angry repressed gay man in the closet then idk.

I mentioned this in another thread, but hopefully you won't mind me posting it here too:

Even though it does happen, this is a harmful stereotype to assume. Bigotry shouldn't be attributed to self-loathing because it carries the implication that prejudice (homophobia and transphobia in particular) is self-inflicted by members of their own population. The vast majority of people who mock, disrespect, and hate minorities do so because of old fashioned supremacy over anyone different than them. That's external prejudice first and foremost. That is the real motivator for bigotry and that's what needs to be recognized here: most bigotry is arbitrary.

I know there is some truth to the stereotype. But consider how a victim of bigotry might feel to read people assuming their aggressors and oppressors must secretly be one of their own, especially here where the problem is a much broader cultural standard for disrespect towards people's identities. Just something to think about.
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
Christ, the stuff about Rin and added stuff about Erica in Full Body is really terrible, just absolutely awful ways to treat those types of characters. I could see why they would go for the initial reaction Vincent has in regards to Rin, but from the looks of it not using it as a stepping stone to explore why Vincent had that reaction and challenging what he knows is just terrible.

Persona 5 also had some extremely poor handling of homosexuals and objectification of women with Ann, just terrible stuff. What makes Persona 5 even more baffling is that the first chapter is literally them fighting a man objectifying women and the general theme of rising up against oppressive behavior, certain character moments just betrays all of that.
 

Apopheniac

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,660
Looking into this a bit more, a couple of pieces cited Naoto from Persona 4 as another example of this (Waypoint recently, as well as this blog from a while back). The latter also notes something from Persona 2, which doesn't appear to have Hashino credited, making it an albeit dated instance of this type of content originating elsewhere within Atlus.

I haven't planned these games, so I don't know if these articles are portraying it accurately, but I'll tag ASaiyan anyway
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
All these years, and people still think Kanji's story was about him being gay. It never was. It was about him confronting his views on toxic masculinity and what "manliness" meant to him after his father passed away. Kanji is a very effeminate male masquerading as a tough guy because he no longer has his father in his life to set an example for him. He thought that his interests made him less "manly" and his friends showed him differently. For all the talk of toxic masculinity on this forum, here we have a character that EMBODIES it, yet folks here trip all over themselves to misrepresent his struggles just to call Hashino homophobic.

I think there's a conversation to be had about Hashino's phobic views, but not in this thread where you purposefully misrepresent the characters to make your argument.

He absolutely should be crucified for the Catherine: Full Body shit and his portrayal of gay characters in Persona 5, though.

I completely agree with all of this. As a gay dude also, it's been super frustrating to see people all these years continue to try and push the Kanji is actually gay thing because not only does this dismiss what a great story he is just as someone who is a straight dude struggling with the concept of masculinity (a sorely needed topic to be expanded on in more stories, and by pushing the idea that Kanji is *actually* gay because he likes x, y, and z, this runs reeallly close to reinforcing the gendered perception of behaviors and hobbies that I dislike inherently) but also it's just dismissive of how the shadows actually work.

Like, if you believe Kanji's shadow means Kanji is gay, then I guess you think Rise also loves being a stripper and just want to take her clothes off for everyone? Shadows are not what people actually are in P4, that's the exact opposite reading of what they represent, and the game says this repeatedly by the end. They're a combination of the manifestion of people's insecurities + (and this is the most important part) how society perceives them/would perceive them because of those insecurities. Rise doesn't like everything about being an idol and she dislikes being objectified even if she enjoys idol performances, and her shadow, as a slutty stripper or whatever, represents how she feels she's perceived and how everyone is constantly drooling over her, and she resents that.

I completely agree Hashino's other views are repugnant and the P3, P5, and Catherine shit is utterly disgusting and he should be taken to task for them, but in Persona 4 there's a lot of things people really overshoot on.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
I completely agree with all of this. As a gay dude also, it's been super frustrating to see people all these years continue to try and push the Kanji is actually gay thing because not only does this dismiss what a great story he is just as someone who is a straight dude struggling with the concept of masculinity (a sorely needed topic to be expanded on in more stories, and by pushing the idea that Kanji is *actually* gay because he likes x, y, and z, this runs reeallly close to reinforcing the gendered perception of behaviors and hobbies that I dislike inherently) but also it's just dismissive of how the shadows actually work.

Like, if you believe Kanji's shadow means Kanji is gay, then I guess you think Rise also loves being a stripper and just want to take her clothes off for everyone? Shadows are not what people actually are in P4, that's the exact opposite reading of what they represent, and the game says this repeatedly by the end. They're a combination of the manifestion of people's insecurities + (and this is the most important part) how society perceives them/would perceive them because of those insecurities. Rise doesn't like everything about being an idol and she dislikes being objectified even if she enjoys idol performances, and her shadow, as a slutty stripper or whatever, represents how she feels she's perceived and how everyone is constantly drooling over her, and she resents that.

I completely agree Hashino's other views are repugnant and the P3, P5, and Catherine shit is utterly disgusting and he should be taken to task for them, but in Persona 4 there's a lot of things people really overshoot on.

How does this make the constant gay panic jokes and constant need of affirmation that he's not gay as a positive, AFTER THE DUNGEON, any better.
 
Apr 16, 2018
1,760
Why are you moving goalposts? I was talking about Yu, not the others.

Did you just miss my whole part where you're literally fighting an embodiment of society's lies and aversion to the truth. How does that not make you an avatar of morality.
Because I was talking about the group of high schoolers the game focuses on?

Does fighting Nyx in Persona 3 make you an avatar of death? Fuck no. The characters are just trying to not die.

Your argument doesn't make sense.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
How does this make the constant gay panic jokes and constant need of affirmation that he's not gay as a positive any better.

It absolutely doesn't excuse any of the jokes made at his expense, or the extent to which Yosuke gets off scot-free bullying him over it, I just think the insistence from some people after all this time that Kanji is truly gay because of his shadow and his personal interests is a bit of a reach and diminishes how interesting of a character he is instead as a straight guy struggling to understand what "being a man" means, not to mention carries problematic implications on things like arts + crafts being naturally "gay" for a guy to enjoy.
 
Jan 3, 2019
3,219
I do think Kanji can read as a extremely insecure dude shunning himself to conform to society (which is afterall one of the game's themes), to the point of complete denial; hence what we see repressed in his dungeon.

Anything else though, specially how he's treated in the game after that, is inexcusable.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Persona 5 also had some extremely poor handling of homosexuals and objectification of women with Ann, just terrible stuff. What makes Persona 5 even more baffling is that the first chapter is literally them fighting a man objectifying women and the general theme of rising up against oppressive behavior, certain character moments just betrays all of that.

The gay couple and the incessant perving over Ann made it so much harder to keep playing P5 (and I have yet to return to it.) It *is* extremely difficult to take the themes of the game seriously (which, incidentally, are delivered in a very blunt and long-winded manner) when it so gleefully undermines itself. We also need to be honest with ourselves that the more progressive interpretations of Kanji and Naoto's arcs in P4 are entirely based on wishful thinking.

I feel awful for all the Atlus USA folks who are stuck in the middle of this, but this controversy has been stewing for years.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Because I was talking about the group of high schoolers the game focuses on?

Does fighting Nyx in Persona 3 make you an avatar of death? Fuck no. The characters are just trying to not die.

Your argument doesn't make sense.

Then you might want to actually go back to our argument.

Also you're the one being hilariously obtuse. Also apparently don't actually understand the persona games as a "fan". If you're fighting against Nyx, you are fighting against an avatar of death, not becoming one. You're literally fighting against humanity's desire for death.

YOU LITERALLY BECOME JESUS IN PERSONA 3.

Protagonist_becomes_the_Great_Seal.jpg


So fucking subtle.

They're basically the same, but Ryuji is dumber and poorer.


High school kids act like high school kids, what do you want me to say? I didn't know any kids like that back in my day in high school. You either defended yourself or took the abuse. Yosuke is Yu's first and best friend. Of course he's going to take the side of his friend over what's actually right, that's what high schoolers act like. I wasn't expecting him to be a bastion of morality, especially when he's characterized as an asshole in media that isn't the games.

I admit both characters are written poorly when compared to the others, though. It's likely due to the evidence already shared in this thread, Hashino lives in his own world. I'm not about to defend his words. He needs to do better and write characters more respectfully, which I've already said.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,865
Informative thread, but I have a genuine question: how do we know it's this guy specifically who injects these views/scenes into these games? Has he been in interviews etc explicitly talking about this stuff?
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,288
On the Kanji discussion, another important thing to note about Kanji is that it's not just his dungeon that clearly is coded to suggest that he's gay. It's not just Yosuke's homophobic attacks of Kanji on top of that. Those are both true, but there's even more to it than that.

Even on top of all that, there's Kanji's crush on Naoto. Kanji clearly, clearly, clearly thinks that Naoto is a man when the character first appears in the game, as does everyone else. And yet he still totally starts crushing on her anyway, 'causing Kanji to wonder even more if he's really gay or not.

Once it's revealed that Naoto is a woman in her dungeon, Kanji breathes a sigh of relief, and it's basically just treated as if he just somehow magically knew on some level that she was a woman, despite not giving any indication beforehand that that was the case, or that making any sense at all. Kanji clearly thought Naoto was a guy, and was crushing on her regardless, unlike any other character in the cast. No one, no one does this other than Kanji, and Kanji himself was the same as everyone else in his thoughts about Naoto at the time (thinking Naoto was a guy) other than having a crush that no one else had.

That being the case, on top of the homophobic abuse Kanji suffers from Yosuke, on top of the stuff in the dungeon, that Kanji had that crush on Naoto and they only end-up making some stupid excuse after the fact makes it pretty damn clear that Kanji was in fact intended to be gay and they backed out at the last second.

Of course, to be clear, a lot of stuff like in Kanji's social link is indeed about toxic masculinity and how he's worried he himself would get bullied or made of if others learned that he was skilled in and liked doing stuff like sewing. But that can be true, they could have tackled stuff like toxic masculinity if they wanted to, and had Kanji be gay as well. Those are not exclusive concepts. They could have dealt with both: had Kanji be gay, and be a victim of both homophobia and toxic masculinity. Especially since like, y'know, especially in the kind of town Kanji seems to have been in, it's not like they wouldn't bully him for sewing and whatever just because he was gay. That would have happened and would be a valid fear regardless. And on top of that, a lot of vile homophobia and why people wind up being homophobic in the first place stems from toxic ideas of masculinity and what it means to be a real man and how a "real man would never let himself take it up the ass" and stuff like that. Toxic masuclinity and homophobia are often interlinked in those kind of ways, so they'd be a natural complement and there's absolutely no reason Persona 4 couldn't have tackled those issues with Kanji simultaneously, if they so desired.

I used to think that way myself, I used to think it had to be one or the other, that Kanji had to either be about either just toxic masculinity or whether he's gay or not, but I realized that's silly, and there's no reason they couldn't do both with him, especially with how he was written regardless.

And that's the thing. If you try to pick individual things apart, it's possible to come to the interpretation that Kanji was only ever supposed to be one or the other, that his story was supposed to be about toxic masculinity or whether he's gay or not, but not both. But when you combine not only all of the imagery in Kanji's dungeon and the Shadow Kanji boss fight, not only all the homophobic abuse Kanji receives from characters like Yosuke, but when you combine all that with Kanji's crush on Naoto, it's very clear that Kanji either is or was originally intended to be written as gay, and they just backed off from committing to that at the last second. Kanji's crush on Naoto on top of everything else is the final nail in the coffin for that one. Like, with Naoto, there's really no evidence outside of her palace that she ever truly wanted to be a man and wasn't just doing that because that's the only way she thought she could achieve her dream job. It's just Shadow Naoto to bring that up. With Kanji though, with his crush on Naoto, things are completely different, and there is distinct evidence combined with the dungeon to support it, so that's why I don't think that can be dismissed that easily these days and don't feel it's accurate to say that Kanji is just about toxic masculinity and nothing further because, as written, that doesn't seem to be the case, at least not to me at this point.

It absolutely doesn't excuse any of the jokes made at his expense, or the extent to which Yosuke gets off scot-free bullying him over it, I just think the insistence from some people after all this time that Kanji is truly gay because of his shadow and his personal interests is a bit of a reach and diminishes how interesting of a character he is instead as a straight guy struggling to understand what "being a man" means, not to mention carries problematic implications on things like arts + crafts being naturally "gay" for a guy to enjoy.
I think you're kind of missing the point there, since it's not just about the jokes being bad (and they most certainly are) or Yosuke getting off scott-free for them (which is also bad). What they're getting at, is both prior to and after Kanji's dungeon, a huge thing with his thing is "is he gay? Is he not?" and when it turns out he's not, especially after Naoto turns out to be a woman after all, it's basically treated as a huge relief moment, and that's not cool and is hugely problematic itself. That Kanji himself is ecstatic, and nobody, not a single person, not even the MC ever sticks up and says "y'know, it would have been just fine if you were gay and there would have been nothing wrong with that." With him turning out to not be gay, with the game being written the way it is, being gay is being treated as something to be feared and avoided, and so it's just a huge weight off Kanji's and everyone else's shoulders when he turns out not to be after Naoto's dungeon, and nothing in the game indicates otherwise.

With Kanji actually being gay, there would have been a perfect opportunity to clear all that up and actually go "no, it's fine that your gay, and there's nothing wrong with that, and we accept you for who you are" in accordance with the game's themes and messages elsewhere and avoid that whole mess. Instead, it's basically just left as "what a relief" with nothing indicated otherwise or further on that, which is a just really really bad place to leave it.
 
OP
OP
ASaiyan

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
You guys, I think these may just be my own personalized Google results, but this thread is now the third result when I type 'Katsura Hashino' into Google. Either way, if more people from outside Era see this, I'll be very happy.

I was informed that some of the Era links in the OP are broken/not working; I'll try and fix them now.

Additionally, I have found a note from Hashino from after the Western release of Persona 5 stating that he has 'handed off' the Persona series and will not be working on it in the future. Time will tell if that's true, but if so, it means the future of Persona could be brighter and less phobic after all. I will add this information to the OP.
Great OP, but for what it's worth it might be worth tweaking this bit slightly



If you play as the female MC in P3P you can befriend characters regardless of gender, and you aren't forced into a romantic relationship with the boys when you progress theirs forward. It's baffling that they didn't take the opportunity to go back and fix the male MC.

Also, in the FeMC route, the section of the game where Operation Babe Hunt takes place features a scene which actively shows Akihiko being fine with Aigis potentially being gay, when he misunderstands her attachment to the FeMC. He seriously just shrugs it off and accepts it.

I think the FeMC route was taken over by a completely different writer???? The grossest part that I'm aware of is the ability to romance Ken, which is very yikes by itself

With the inclusion of the female MC in PQ2, and the main character in Persona 3 Dancing given platonic friendships with the female party members, I kiiinda hope a remake happens just to purge the Hashino-ness.
Thanks for explaining the nuance; I only played the male route in P3P. I'll update the OP.
I mean, its an entire arc of having Ann strip naked for some guy's photo shoot and the guys on the team basically forcing her to do it despite her clearly being uncomfortable with it, immediately after that whole sexual assault thing. Its not even small or hidden in the game.
Thank you for reminding of the specific context. I'll try to find a video and write this into the OP.
Did Hashino work on P4 Dancing? Because there is actually a gay character in the game but yeah it's how you would expect him to be represented unfortunately.
He is listed as Producer on that game, so I'm not surprised. Do you have the name of the character/a screencap or video of the relevant scenes I can add to the OP?
Looking into this a bit more, a couple of pieces cited Naoto from Persona 4 as another example of this (Waypoint recently, as well as this blog from a while back). The latter also notes something from Persona 2, which doesn't appear to have Hashino credited, making it an albeit dated instance of this type of content originating elsewhere within Atlus.

I haven't planned these games, so I don't know if these articles are portraying it accurately, but I'll tag ASaiyan anyway
Naoto is, I think, an even more complicated case than Kanji (which itself, is already a case of some complication that people in this thread have been debating). There are definitely a few scenes and signals from her that could be interpreted as gender dysphoria, and the Christmas scene where the protagonist can ask her to "talk more like a girl" is blatantly sexist. However, based on my whole experience playing through Persona 4 and its spinoffs, I don't know that I could personally make the statement that "Naoto is a trans man who is prevented from transitioning" – although, clearly, we have learned this week that this kind of phobic storyline is something Hashino would be comfortable with. At the same time though, I don't think it is a baseless idea that should be completely dismissed; so I would welcome people to continue discussing it in this thread, as they have been discussing Kanji.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
I think you're kind of missing the point there, since it's not just about the jokes being bad (and they most certainly are) or Yosuke getting off scott-free for them (which is also bad). What they're getting at, is both prior to and after Kanji's dungeon, a huge thing with his thing is "is he gay? Is he not?" and when it turns out he's not, especially after Naoto turns out to be a woman after all, it's basically treated as a huge relief moment, and that's not cool and is hugely problematic itself.

This is fair and I agree that at the end of the day, whether or not Kanji is gay ultimately changes nothing from the way the entire subject is handled so astonishingly poorly. No one even says "gay" out loud like it's some sort of cursed word, which is beyond absurd. Regardless of Kanji's actual sexuality (I don't personally interpret him as gay but that's fine) the plot itself absolutely deserves criticism just from the way it was directed.

Kanji not being gay would've been completely acceptable as an outcome to most people, I suspect, if the rest of the cast had been allowed to explicitly state they care for and support Kanji no matter who he is, or who he likes, and had backed off of mentioning much else about it. The fact that it doesn't even bother to do anything close to that after the fact is more damning than anything else. Hashino has an almost complete indifference to the suffering Kanji has, regardless.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Yeah my problem with Kanji has never been he's not gay, and I love kanji as a character.

The story just fucking treats him like absolute dogshit though.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Naoto is, I think, an even more complicated case than Kanji (which itself, is already a case of some complication that people in this thread have been debating). There are definitely a few scenes and signals from her that could be interpreted as gender dysphoria, and the Christmas scene where the protagonist can ask her to "talk more like a girl" is blatantly sexist. However, based on my whole experience playing through Persona 4 and its spinoffs, I don't know that I could personally make the statement that "Naoto is a trans man who is prevented from transitioning" – although, clearly, we have learned this week that this kind of phobic storyline is something Hashino would be comfortable with. At the same time though, I don't think it is a baseless idea that should be completely dismissed; so I would welcome people to continue discussing it in this thread, as they have been discussing Kanji.

I don't know if there's any substance to the "Naoto is a trans man" theory. She only presented herself as male because there's "no such thing as a female detective" (lol, Sae.) And the game appears very intent on coupling up her and Kanji, who initially seems romantically interested in "him", but once her gender is outed he appears to be elated that she's, in fact, female. Persona 4's exploration of queer characters is engineered in such a way that it results in a heteronormative relationship.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
11,506
Bandung Indonesia
Gay or not, stereotyping that all effeminate men are gay isn't a great look.

The whole point of Kanji's storyline is to dismiss that stereotype. Heck his social link specifically converse around this issue with his interaction with Nanako, and his should feel embrace his love for his hobby.

Not gonna refute any other point in the OP though, all the other things are questionable indeed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
853
You guys, I think these may just be my own personalized Google results, but this thread is now the third result when I type 'Katsura Hashino' into Google. Either way, if more people from outside Era see this, I'll be very happy.

Opened up an incognito browser and typed his name. This thread came up 4th in the search results. So yeah, a lot of folks outside are definitely linking to this thread.
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,842
Japan
So uh, about this part in the OP:
Katsura Hashino possesses virulently offensive and phobic views on the LGBT community, women, and other groups.

Is that just being extrapolated from the content of the games or has he talked about those issues outside of them? (Not including the interview where he says he's never had female friends)

Also I find the thread title overly ridiculous and I think it takes away from the actual thread, but hey that's just me
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
As someone who hasn't played these games, I've gotten the impression that people are really just fooling themselves when they say the Persona series, or Catherine, are in any way progressive games that deliver smart messages. It comes off as a happy accident by dev teams that aren't trying to accomplish much other than make another shitty weeb game with fanservice.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,291
As someone who hasn't played these games, I've gotten the impression that people are really just fooling themselves when they say the Persona series, or Catherine, are in any way progressive games that deliver smart messages. It comes off as a happy accident by dev teams that aren't trying to accomplish much other than make another shitty weeb game with fanservice.
Yes, that does sound like the viewpoint of someone who hasn't played the games.

The reason these issues are such a big deal is because they are otherwise really damn good. If they were just another shitty fanservice game on the pile no one would care.
 
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Deleted member 20630

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,406
So uh, about this part in the OP:
Katsura Hashino possesses virulently offensive and phobic views on the LGBT community, women, and other groups.

Is that just being extrapolated from the content of the games or has he talked about those issues outside of them? (Not including the interview where he says he's never had female friends)

Also I find the thread title overly ridiculous and I think it takes away from the actual thread, but hey that's just me

When a person shows you who they are, believe them.
 

DarlingDixie

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
115
User Banned (Permanently): dismissing concerns of the LGBT+ community, history of severe infractions
This thread is pathetic and so is this controversy. Y'all are soft af and do nothing but make it harder for the perception of sane LGBT folk. This'll get me banned, do your worst. Bye not coming back.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
This thread is pathetic and so is this controversy. Y'all are soft af and do nothing but make it harder for the perception of sane LGBT folk. This'll get me banned, do your worst. Bye not coming back.
Instead of making yourself a victim and talking about getting banned, why don't you try explaining yourself. What makes this thread pathetic exactly? How's it make it harder for the perception of sane LGBT folk? What exactly do you mean by that? Why are the people who care about this stuff not sane, and how dos it make it harder for anyone? Instead of peacing, why don't you try explaining any of that, instead of just insulting people as being soft, pathetic, and not being sane and then being on your way?
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Persona 5 has left me creeped out a couple of times. The Ryuji scene was awful, Ann scene was creepy and disgusting, while I found the whole dating subplot terrible for having a teacher be a potential partner.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
New York City
Those scenes in the Persona games definitely made me feel uncomfortable when I played through them. I especially winced with that couple in Persona 5 because they were so blatantly caricatured. It was a little bewildering because soon after, you meet Lala Escargot, a transgender (I believe?) character who's, for the most part, treated and depicted tastefully.

I sincerely hope they address these issues going forward and take all feedback seriously.
 
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Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
26,432
The story just fucking treats him like absolute dogshit though.

Mostly because other people THINK he's gay though.

That's the rub, the conversation of Kanji's sexuality, struggle with masculinity and coping with enjoying the things he enjoys regardless of what other people think is fine.

The game spends an exorbitant amount of time after he's supposedly done dealing with his issues pointing at him and saying "LOL HE'S GAY! WHAT A FREAK!" And you can't check the attitudes of the people that do that, which sucks. And it's the only one that happens to. No one points at Rise saying, "man what an attention whore" after she goes through her dungeon and battles her demons. Kanji remains the butt of the joke, damn near consistently because someone on Atlus' staff thinks laughing at gay people is hilarious.

At least in P5, when Ryouji is acting particularly shitty, towards the end, the entire team checks him. People give Yosuke a fucking pass to belittle Kanji because Kanji beating him up, or threatening to beat him up, somehow makes it better.
 
Jan 16, 2018
425
Hope's Peak Academy
Important thread and I very much appreciate that this is being spotlighted and condemned in the strongest terms.

Very unfortunate as the man directed my favorite game of all time, Nocturne. However it appears that the game thankfully wasn't directly tainted by his bigotry as the modern Personas and now Catherine are.

The reason for Nocturne not having anything is simple: Nocturne's characters, like most Shin Megami Tensei characters, are stand-ins for their alighment/reason, and not much more than that. Persona characters are living in basically a slice of life world with zany antics in them, which is why this sort of thing becomes ver a lot more apparent.

On an unrelated note, it's a bit weird to look at the notable gay fandom for the Persona characters, because the series has long before Full Body had done (very tiring) jokes about "staying away from the gay", like the whole Yosuke/Kanji thing.

Edit: On an unrelated and more meta-based note, I feel like there should be some sort of Mega thread for this whole controversy. It seems like there's 3/4 threads about it, so maybe fusing (heh) all of them will allow for other dicussion to go thru.
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,004
It's definitely a shame that a series I fell in love with does have as many uncomfortably hateful LGBT issues as it does. At least with 3 and 5 they are pretty short and insignificant, but in 4 it's just shoved in your face the whole time. 4 is perhaps the best game of the bunch, and yet is so very very tainted by the LGBT-phobic bullshit. No surprise it has the longest write-up. That Catherine Full Body spoiler is despicable. I'm really relieved this guy won't be directing the next Persona game but I don't have a ton of faith it'll all be resolved considering this problem occurs in a lot of JRPGs to various degrees.
Naoto is, I think, an even more complicated case than Kanji (which itself, is already a case of some complication that people in this thread have been debating). There are definitely a few scenes and signals from her that could be interpreted as gender dysphoria, and the Christmas scene where the protagonist can ask her to "talk more like a girl" is blatantly sexist. However, based on my whole experience playing through Persona 4 and its spinoffs, I don't know that I could personally make the statement that "Naoto is a trans man who is prevented from transitioning" – although, clearly, we have learned this week that this kind of phobic storyline is something Hashino would be comfortable with. At the same time though, I don't think it is a baseless idea that should be completely dismissed; so I would welcome people to continue discussing it in this thread, as they have been discussing Kanji.
I do perceive the story as being written more from the point of view of a female who is trying to subvert established gender roles and doesn't fit female gender norms, which is fine, except they go through this whole point of making her realize she's a girly girl inside (and simultaneously making Kanji "prove" he's straight). It compromises her character in a way that strikes me as transphobic - as if being a (biological) female that isn't feminine is wrong and just a consequence of her fear of not being taken seriously. That's my take anyway.
 
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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
I feel making inferences about Katsura Hashino's personal views based purely on some scenes in games that are huge collaborative efforts is not a good idea. When assigning blame to a specific person, even a creative lead, you have to tread carefully.

This thread is good for pointing out the issues in many Atlus games, but after watching Grate Debate's excellent analysis of the vilification of Tomm Hulett, it's good to remember to be careful about what we accuse individual people of when we find fault in our entertainment.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
You spend quite a lot of your time here in that SonicFox thread. I guess its clear now why.

Homophobes really can't help themselves. People standing up for the LGBTQ+ Community is like flypaper to them.

The only thing "soft" here is the idea that someone got so agitated they had to throw their account away in a tantrum.
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
I feel making inferences about Katsura Hashino's personal views based purely on some scenes in games that are huge collaborative efforts is not a good idea. When assigning blame to a specific person, even a creative lead, you have to tread carefully.
Either the scenes were his fault or they're representative of a larger problem within Atlus that he's okay with because he's the director and didn't veto them.

Neither are good.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,868
Informative thread, but I have a genuine question: how do we know it's this guy specifically who injects these views/scenes into these games? Has he been in interviews etc explicitly talking about this stuff?
Yea i've been playin these games since forever, so i'm well aware of the issues. I'm not so aware of how OP is pinning it on one guy, and why the mods are fine with him not providing any evidence.
 
OP
OP
ASaiyan

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
Informative thread, but I have a genuine question: how do we know it's this guy specifically who injects these views/scenes into these games? Has he been in interviews etc explicitly talking about this stuff?
He has explicitly claimed credit for the offensive new additions to Catherine: Full Body in the latest round of PR interviews, as his "original vision for the game" that couldn't be realized in 2011 because "society was in a different place". I have also linked an interview in the OP where he expressly takes ownership of the design decision to have only romantic mix-gendered supports in Persona 3, because he "couldn't imagine boys and girls being friends".

There may well be further interviews out there of him making express claim to/defense of some of the other offensive instances pointed out in the OP, which are all games he worked on the planning and writing of at the highest level as Director or Producer. If anyone sends me more transcripts to that effect I will add them to the OP.
 
I used to give Kanji's depiction in P4 the benefit of the doubt because I assumed the intention was to provide the viewpoint of someone experiencing the questioning phase of budding sexuality. That even thought the story had not explicitly stated him as gay, the anguish and pressure he felt from society was still just as real and an important thing to represent in media. Taking all these other cases of homo and transphobia in Hashino's games into account has changed that for me.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
He has explicitly claimed credit for the offensive new additions to Catherine: Full Body in the latest round of PR interviews, as his "original vision for the game" that couldn't be realized in 2011 because "society was in a different place".
I'm sorry I missed this in the OP. That's pretty fucked up considering what the plot with Rin added.
 

tomahawk

Member
Nov 2, 2018
43
He has explicitly claimed credit for the offensive new additions to Catherine: Full Body in the latest round of PR interviews, as his "original vision for the game" that couldn't be realized in 2011 because "society was in a different place". I have also linked an interview in the OP where he expressly takes ownership of the design decision to have only romantic mix-gendered supports in Persona 3, because he "couldn't imagine boys and girls being friends".
I've seen the quote about his "original vision" being thrown around but no actual links to it. I know that in a blog post and interview with Dengeki he said that they created Full Body with the intention of updating the game to be more in line with how relationships are these days, but I haven't seen him saying anything about it being "part of the original vision". Does anyone have a link to said quote?

Also I think you're a bit off with regards to what he said about boys and girls being friends. He and Soejima said they personally had not ever successfully forged a true friendship with a girl and didn't think they'd be able to accurately depict it in the game because they didn't know what it's like. That sounds to me more like he was just awkward around women rather than not believing platonic friendships between people of the opposite sex can happen.
HASHINO: I've never successfully forged a true friendship with a girl in real life.

SOEJIMA: Neither have I.

HASHINO: I guess that means we couldn't implement it into the game because we don't know what it's like. (laughs)
 
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