There are no such thing as ultra woke people. There are no such thing as SJWs. They are just bullying tactics to try and make people who say "hey maybe we shouldnt say racist things and attack women?" seem abnormal.
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The online discourse has soured me on Star Wars even if I liked TLJ
- Thread starter Manu
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I agree man and it's disgusting. There are quite a few people who immediately jump into the you're sexist and name calling labeling here and I get the feeling they really don't care about the actual issue but rather get butthurt people don't like the movie/character they like and use it to argue. I don't see as much as You're SJW Insults though because the mods are good at banning that kind of crap.
nobody cares if you like the movie or not, but the moment you drop a "Rey is a Mary Sue, you lost the benefit of the doubt.
because simply, if you can't construct your criticism without using that term, why would you criticism matter at all?
and there is nothing "disgusting" about trying to silence mysoginistc and racist people.
By following the debate about the ST through the years, I think every single and little aspect of both TLJ (mainly) and TFA were heavily criticized, sometimes even as a deal-breaker thing (ex: "for the moment Luke called lightsaber as a lazer sword, the movie has ended for me"). Like, WTF?! There's no way you can debate and reach a conclusion when both point of views (people who loved x people who hated) are completely different. Also, the debate never goes beyond the same shit we've been debating all these years.
People are still saying that there wasn't any characters development in the ST. Fuck this.
People are still saying that there wasn't any characters development in the ST. Fuck this.
Totally feel you. The toxicity of the fandom has made me feel relieved that this is the last mainline Star Wars for a while, because it brought something feral out of several fans.
Will definitely still watch it, just not as hyped as I should be. Might go watch it with the geek crew from work to make it a little more special.
A similar thing happened to me that made my experience with Dragon Ball Super really disappointing - the dismissive nature of an Android 17 fan really soured my hype for the Tournament of Power, and the character originally went from one of my favourites to a huge turn ff for me, even if he got some awesome scenes.
Will definitely still watch it, just not as hyped as I should be. Might go watch it with the geek crew from work to make it a little more special.
A similar thing happened to me that made my experience with Dragon Ball Super really disappointing - the dismissive nature of an Android 17 fan really soured my hype for the Tournament of Power, and the character originally went from one of my favourites to a huge turn ff for me, even if he got some awesome scenes.
It's more made me keep my excitement for the movies to myself and not want to share them with others because I don't want to get into it with the assholes that want to crop dust everything with their negativity and hatred. So far, they have been failures in getting me to hate things I love and instead are making me feel more confident in those opinions.
OP, I feel you! I hate to see/ read how people bash almost everything now.
However, the only person it really matters to is you. Who gives a fuck what fans think? What matters is what you think. If you like the movie, then that is all that matters.
However, the only person it really matters to is you. Who gives a fuck what fans think? What matters is what you think. If you like the movie, then that is all that matters.
A simple solution: stop reading all these threads, doesnt matter if positive or negative, but sooner or later you will get bored of it!
That's what i do with everything i like.
That's what i do with everything i like.
I lived through the prequels hate (which I loved), I will live through this. Why even care so much about the opinion of others?
i dont know who did the writing on that (or god in heaven if it was improved), but it was great stuff
Why do people invent words and terms in the first place? Are you saying you've never name-dropped a trope in media criticism? Come on.
the problem is not the trope name, or the term, but the fact that it was adopted by alt-right shitheads.
so again, if your criticism is well constructed you dont need to drop the trope or term.
simply as that.
and most poeple that use that term just say something along the lines "rey is a marye sue that killed starwars!" and be done with it.
on a past thread even a consensous about the fact that its ok for rey to achieve what she has achieved, but some people felt they needed to set up her a little bit more, to be more believable.
no one of those people needed to use the term "mary sue"
You're just looking for a reason to get upset by a word instead of the actual substance of an argument. That's your problem, not the other person's.
so if someone calls someone a "snowflake"
it's the person being called snowflake problem, not the one calling they that.
wow
Mary Sue as a sexist term is debatable. I don't think it is since there are male counterpart of this exist. Rey imo is basically a Steven segal character. Who himself is the king of Gary Stu's.
That's not what I'm saying, but you're proving my point. A bunch of people with Rey avatars looking for the most unfavorable way to interpret someone's comments is perhaps the perfect illustration of why these threads are so terrible. But continue believing the problem is everyone but you if you want.
it is so hard for people to not use a term co opted by the alt-right?
damn
I noticed this pattern too. Which I find very weird and interesting at the same time.
honest question, what term do you prefer people use when referring to the trope
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A thread about the toxic discussion surrounding Star Wars turns toxic as people have to hammer in their opinion before even broaching the subject.
OP
OP
Yeah drop the Mary Sue shit please. I disagree with the assessment myself but not everyone calling Rey a Mary Sue is alt-right or alt-right adjacent. It's an absolutely shitty way to deflect criticism.
As someone you were happy to jump on in the other thread, let me try to answer your question in the best faith possible.
Not everyone is the same. Era is an extremely political board, which you may or may not like, but in my limited experience it tends to make things more / faster about politics than other boards. That is not meant as judgemental, just for comparison's sake. Therefore, phrases may have implications here that are not present, at least not as strongly, elsewhere.
The term Mary Sue being taken over by the alt-right and/or sexists is news to me, believe it or not. I literally was not aware of this a few days ago. Why? First, I tend to visit less politcally engaged places than Era, usually. Second, I rarely discuss Star Wars in English, but in german boards instead. Politics and mindsets tend to differ from what can be found here. Third, since I usually discuss Star Wars in different places and a different language, I am exposed to different media than a lot of US folks. Someone stated on the other page something like "look who popularized the Rey = Mary Sue sentiment in the first place" in regards to the term now being sexist. I can only suspect that the person they are referring to is a known alt-righter or something and therefore their argument is seen as sexist and disingenious, and if one phrases their criticism using the same terms and tropes, they are regarded in the same way.
But, and this is important: this is about content, not labels. Either someone does have a point, or they don't. And that is not determined by who they are or what terms they are using, but by what argument they present. If some youtube shithead claims "Rey is a Mary Sue because she is a woman and women should not be as capable as she is!", that person is certainly an idiot. But if I say "Rey is a Mary Sue because almost all of her strengths are presented in upstaging other characters and that is pretty weak writing", then I made an entirely different point and cannot be lumped in together with that youtuber just because we happened to use the same phrase for a certain trope.
I get that once people are sensitive towards recognizing red flags in discussions, they may be overly suspicious of someone that draws their attention using certain phrases. But that cannot be the end of it. Specifically about the term Mary Sue, I did not need anyone to "popularize it" for me, because I have been happily using it to call out flawed characters for over a decade, including male ones like Galen Marek, Corran Horn or Ezra Bridger. All of a sudden though, I find myself here under attack for my habit, being portrayed as disingenious and shady, without providing any fucking context whatsoever, just expecting that everyone here needs to have the same exact levels of political awareness as the rest of era. And then you act surprised why I am hesitant to have my linguistic habits taken away by you, requiring me to trust your judgement right after proving that you literally just misjudged me because of using the wrong phrases in the wrong places.
Now, through tiresome discussion, I have well registered that the term is seeing as problematic around here and will refrain from using it here. I just wanted to answer your question. Old habits die hard, basically. Now, I fully expect you to still not like or agree with my criticism, and that's perfectly fine and I don't care if we disagree over some fictional characters in a movie series. What I do care about, though, is the implication that I have some ulterior political motive because I used a term that you consider problematic and being called disingenious over it. Because that, too, is toxic af.
sorry but *I* dont consider the term problematic, the term is problematic, period.
it doesn't matter the origins or that you have been using it for over a decade.
the current implication of using that term is established.
you can criticize the movies, the characters all you want, you are free to do so, just not be surprised when someone here gives you the side eye because you used the term.
Why ask people why it is hard for them to not use it if you are gonna handwave their answer as "it doesn't matter"? Could have well saved me the time of writing that lengthy post.
Uhm, that's very debatable. You still have not given any context whatsoever, and you confirm my point about you expecting everyone else to fall in line with your political awareness.
If you are wondering why that may be contraproductive to your position and should not be handwaved with "it doesn't matter": I already caved in and said that I would not use the term here anymore. But it is not because any good reasoning was provided that made me think "Yeah, that term is indeed sexist, it should not be used". The ONLY reason I am doing it is because I think "If I write it again people will freak out and I don't want to deal with that shit again". Winning by being a pain in the neck cannot be a good political strategy, but that's just my opinion.
so you admit, you had several people telling you or calling on you, because you used the term.
BUT STILL you think is ok for you to use it, but you wont because you dont want people to calling out again?
LOL
also yes, you should have saved the lenghty post when all you said was practically "i have been using the term over a decade, you guys are just over-reacting!"
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