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The Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader scene is so bad
- Thread starter MillionIII
- Start date
Not at that point in the story. That was something added decades later in the prequels.
Nah, he's kind of right. Not about your friends, but viewing order. It's like watching The Hobbit trilogy before Lord of the Rings, except far worse.
RotS is a bigger movie stuffed with more things and flashier higher budget scenes.
Its story had all the ingredients of a compelling drama, but it is not well told. Its characters had all the makings of classic cinematic icons, but their interactions are wooden or too perfunctory to develop any meaningful conflicts, virtues, or relationships. At every layer of storytelling, whether it's the dialogue, performances, editing (within and between scenes), settings, and even choreography, RotS works against itself with either amateurish quality that has no place in such a high profile film rooted in such fertile dramatic soil thanks to the OT, or confused creative direction that reflects very poorly on Lucas's abilities as a director and creative guide.
It would take a while to break down Rogue One, but suffice it to say that its individual elements are better realized than RotS, and more coherently arranged, and that the overall effect of the film is to support and advance Star Wars' great thematic arcs, and lend a higher meaning and emotional resonance to A New Hope's rebellion and Luke's victory against the Death Star. Its story might not be better than RotS's on the page, but on the screen? No comparison.
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But the "what's wrong with you" came from the "shitheads" comment.
Also, people can watch Star Wars in any order they want. My friends watched in chronological order (their choice) and loved them enough to become fans. I'd say it worked.
No he's not. He caught a warning for calling people shitheads over not following the order he agreed with.
OT Stans in here really trying to say with a straight face that the lightsaber Combat in the OT is good and not just blind nostalgia?
Prequel fights were bad, the OT is simply atrocious.
Prequel fights were bad, the OT is simply atrocious.
What do you define as good saber combat if you think the prequels are actually above the OT in this regard?
Believing the OT had "good" saber combat and certainly better than the prequels is now stanning the OT.. OK.
I define it as any weighty, intense/emotionally charged action that compliments the story being told.. and the characters as they develop.
Well, the line "more powerful than ever" is not exactly false. A few Jedi (Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan, Yoda and later Anakin) learned the ability to maintain their conciousness beyond death in order to speak or even to project an image in the physical plane (explained in The Clone Wars animated series)--hence he could be anywhere in the galaxy. Yoda does the same thing in ROTJ. The explaination for this was in The Clone Wars series, but since that series was nowhere near an idea at the time of ANH it's probably just some ability Jedi Masters have.
I think this might be my most hated star wars scene. Even worse than the romance shit in AotC
He doesn't say that, though. He says "more powerful than you could possibly imagine", because Anakin Skywalker incorrectly believes that the dark side is stronger. He realizes that the light triumphs over dark by the end of ROTJ and uses it to save his son and redeem himself.
This is also touched on with Obi-Wan's "only a master of evil, Darth" when Vader says "now I am the master" during their duel in ANH.
It's not about a measurement of abilities/power in the traditional sense but rather the realization that good is always stronger than evil.
These are all plot functions of the fights. People are laboring to point out to you that the OT and ST fights are about character conflict more than moving the plot forward. There's no real tension or interest to the prequel fights because we aren't engaged with the characters and their conflict doesn't grow naturally out of their behavior or relationships, it just...happens, because the script says it's time for it to happen. The Obi-Wan/Anakin/Dooku fight in Episode 2 isn't the worst fight in the series for any kind of technical reason, it's the worst because there's literally zero character conflict between the three of them beyond the most basic "good guy/bad guy" setup. It's boring.
Except not, because Vader wasn't Anakin when Lucas wrote those words or shot that scene. It's literally just an old knight bantering with what was at the time just the biggest enforcer thug of the Empire about their history together. A lot of Lucas' ideas about the world of Star Wars changed between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. The fight in Star Wars feels strange because it is strange, and doesn't function by the same rules as the sequels would, but it still works because the point is the characters confronting one another about a past we have only heard about from one side, and Obi-Wan's "more powerful" line is a setup for his life-after-death schtick which is the most concrete proof the film gives us that the Force really is everything Obi-Wan has told Luke it is.
Can you explain why?
I'm aware most of the hate comes from the scene existing at all but I don't think there's anything wrong with the scene on its own.
Right, he wasn't Anakin at that time. That's an interpretation you could have with the broader context of the rest of the OT. However, his message is all the same, that good triumphs over evil, and that he's only a master of evil (that evil is stunted in comparison to the light side) Obi knew that his selfless sacrifice would make him powerful as he is able to guide Luke on his journey. Vader incorrectly believed he had now surpassed his master because of his commitment to the dark side but was mistaken.
This is apparent in the dialogue. It's classic "good beats evil" shit.
But yes, you're right, in regard to Anakin, I kinda took the OT as the full context.
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Apology accepted, friend. :)
We are all Star Wars fans here, even if our points of view are different, we all have our ways to enjoy this series.
You got it, its very inclusion that adds absolutely nothing to the story. People were rooting for Vader here and I just find that really stupid considering this scene plays out immediately after the heroes die.
Well yeah it's pure fan service but I think its one of the best examples of menacing Vader can be, as well as simple lightsaber choreography that isn't overly CGI'd like the prequels. People will always root for Vader because they know his history and love the character. He could murder a whole room of childr.... oh wait.
I like how the storm troopers are just kinda "holy shit, a Jedi fight. Don't see these too often."
Cheers dude, and as you say enjoying the films however we like is the main thing.
True it's one of the few times we see Vader do something "cool", but everyone already saw him as an imposing villain back in 1977.
It's a lame fight for sure, but the Force in the original trilogy was a lot more subtle and much weaker than it was in the later movies. The idea behind this fight is that two warriors past their prime are having a pretty standard duel, and one of them throws it. That's it. It's not a climax - it's a plot device.
Luke vs Vader was way better in Empire. Luke was hopelessly outmatched the entire time, which was the whole point. He was only able to match Vader in Return, and barely that.
None of these fights involve all this flipping and wild nonsense you see in the prequels. I guess that's justified in-universe by Luke not being trained conventionally and all the other jedi being old, but to be perfectly honest I'm willing to ignore all that and say that I liked the OT Force better. It wasn't this stylish, showy nonsense. It felt like real power gained through strength and maturity - a wise power, not a flashy one.
Luke vs Vader was way better in Empire. Luke was hopelessly outmatched the entire time, which was the whole point. He was only able to match Vader in Return, and barely that.
None of these fights involve all this flipping and wild nonsense you see in the prequels. I guess that's justified in-universe by Luke not being trained conventionally and all the other jedi being old, but to be perfectly honest I'm willing to ignore all that and say that I liked the OT Force better. It wasn't this stylish, showy nonsense. It felt like real power gained through strength and maturity - a wise power, not a flashy one.
I always wish they'd given Anakin a different colored lightsaber for that fight, just for contrast. I know that doesnt make sense story wise but visually it would be much better.
The only reason the original Obi-Wan vs. Vader fight on the Death Star seems so lame now is because of the obnoxious theatrics of the saber fights in the prequels. Yes, Duel of the Fates is an amazing fight, but their movements also made sense. This shit does not:
Haha, I thought the OP was being sarcastic.
Its a 40 year old indy movie, what kind of action were you expecting.
Obi Wan clumsily spinning at 3FPS aside, the scene works because it introduces the concept of pacifism as the superior method to Star Wars which Luke finally learned in Jedi and tried to teach Rey in TLJ
Its a 40 year old indy movie, what kind of action were you expecting.
Obi Wan clumsily spinning at 3FPS aside, the scene works because it introduces the concept of pacifism as the superior method to Star Wars which Luke finally learned in Jedi and tried to teach Rey in TLJ
Exactly.
And as Surfinn has mentioned multiple times (in multiple threads) what truly makes a fight memorable is the characters having conflict against each other.
And the lengths people like this will go to ignore valid points is hilarious and embarrassing lol. At this point it's been repeated ad nausea why people think something like the Obi-Vader fight is better.
To act as if there's no valid reason behind it is at best demonstrating a profound ignorance to the language of cinema. Like you can have different preferences to what you like, but acting like others are crazy says more about you.
It's more about how the fights going from episode 4 onwards have actual emotional impact and meaning for the characters. Like how in RoTJ Luke loses his control and is just beating Vader Down in rage. You don't really get that type of emotion from the prequels, and it's less to do with the speed, and more to do with the style of choreography.
Sure if all you care about in a movie is flashy visuals.
From a film making perspective it's still well done (which is in large part thanks to the editing which literally saved the movie)
I'm definitely curious how this can be the case when all of them resulted in more character development compared to any of the prequels.
That would be really stupid wouldn't it.
How would they explain Obi Wan giving Luke a blue lightsaber that belonged to Anakin in ANH?
"It wasn't his real one. Just one I took from a training room that I may have seen him use a couple of time"
I never bought that excuse, the Emperor could have given him one when he was born as Vader when he set off order 66
Pfft, it's better the way it is. I can giggle at Obi giving Luke the lightsaber his father used to chop up some children. Not just children, but the women and the men too.
Oh, OK. It seemed like you were referring to this scene. Personally I try to forget everything about the prequels.
On-topic, people seem to forget this was over forty years ago and literally the first lightsaber duel ever. The scene is perfectly fine, with the exception of Obi-Wan's super slow "please backstab me" spin. Spins in general are pointless with lightsabers; they don't have weight, you don't gain any angular momentum! And of course, further movies leaned far harder on these.
QFT! I have the same reaction to the Ewoks taking down the Empire take.
No, they were only an effective diversion but were soon getting slaughtered once the Empire regrouped. The tables only truly turned when Chewbacca commandeered an AtSt.
I had always assumed that Obi Wan used a mind trick on them to get them away from the Falcon.
He looks like he's straining doing the saber fight and diverting the guards at the same time.
Very true. This one is also muddled slightly due to the fact that it was originally written to be Wookies on that planet (which would make more sense for the fight), but Lucas changed it. That's why Ewoks is just switching the syllables of Wookie. Regardless, the whole "The Empire was defeated by teddy bears" joke doesn't hold up.
Every day I wake up thinking "Today I won't read a terrible thread online!"
Every day I cry myself to sleep
Every day I cry myself to sleep
He is speaking figuratively. What he means is that through sacrificing himself to Vader, his death will serve as an inspiration to Luke and possibly others, emboldening them to manifest the will to grow stronger and continue fighting the empire until they defeat it and the dark side. The strength he is talking about is transitive, it passes from him to others - that is his legacy. He is also saying that Vader can't imagine this kind of strength because the dark side is predicated on fear, which suppresses the power to inspire through self sacrifice and contributing to the progress of others. Vader ultimately learns this lesson, as he sacrifices himself at the end of RotJ. In his death he finally discovers the strength Obi Wan displayed. It was like the final lesson from master to student.
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It still blows me away that so many Star Wars fans completely missed how this was also the main theme of TLJ.
I will stand by the Combat depicted in the Old Republic is far superior to what we get in the movies.
When you hire the actors that were part of the Raid franchise yet you do NOTHING with them choreography style then you've failed as a film maker.
When you hire the actors that were part of the Raid franchise yet you do NOTHING with them choreography style then you've failed as a film maker.
It's certainly the worst lightsaber duel in the series from a purely technical standpoint, although Anakin/Obi Wan versus Dooku and (moments later) Yoda versus Dooku and Windu + 2 Terrible Jedi versus Palpatine are all far worse watches.
You even get Yoda poppin in as a force ghost, explaining it in as clear of terms as a character like that can.
Who then blows up an ancient tree and relics to drive home the point even more.
But somehow you still had fans going into the final confrontation like
"AW YEAH LUKE BOUT TO THROW AN AT-AT TO THE MOON BABY!"
