Lightsaber fights were better when they looked like the lightsabers had some weight to them, not that twirly, flashy for the sake of flashy video game bullshit of the PT.
Yes.
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The Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader scene is so bad
- Thread starter MillionIII
- Start date
I thought the point of the duel for Obi Wan was to die in front of Luke. He smiled right when Luke entered the room. For what exact reason, I do not know. To push along and guide Luke's evolution, perhaps.
Flashy action scene wasn't what they were going for. The entire scene was Obi-Wan teaching Luke a lesson and he only did it because he had a safety net (the Force Ghost abilities) and knew he could keep guiding Luke going further. The first 'real' saber fight in the OT is Luke v Vader in Cloud City.
The point wasn't to die. It was to ensure that Vader and the stormtroopers were distracted and to ensure the gang's escape, and if he had to die for that to happen then he was willing to do it. He smiled because he saw Luke was about to escape and that his mission was accomplished.
It (Maul vs Obi Wan on Tatooine in Rebels) is by far the best duel in all of Star Wars. It wraps up a story arc that started in TPM, developed through The Clone Wars and culminated in Rebels, spanning nearly 30 years. So emotional, so true to the characters, and storytelling perfection.
Of course, if you didn't watch The Clone Wars and Rebels you wouldn't get that. :-)
As to the OP, yeah, the choreography of the duel is not great, but the story the duel is telling (and what it's setting up for Luke) is what's important.
lol on point. I get the hate for the prequels. But for the most part combats are 10x better. I guess same people must love the slow/heavy movements of Kylo Ren
OP
OP
If Lucas knew how big the series was going to become and how important the Obi-Wan-Vader relationship would be in the long run, yeah he probably would've made sure this moment was a lot more dramatic. It probably would've been more like what's in that video. Even without CGI, they could have used a body double for Guiness if need be.
At the time though Lucas was having a nervous breakdown just getting this movie completed and had no idea it would be a success in the way that it was. But yeah, that clip is awesome.
If we ever should get in the situation that we watch a movie older then 20 years together, please remember that I bail the fuck out.
I was confused as all hell at that scene. I thought for sure he just faked his death and teleported away to make an epic appearance when all hope seemed lost. It wasn't until the end of episode 6 that the reality of what happened actually set in. As bad as the prequels were they atleast made him a great jedi.
I have to go against the grain on the red room fight in TLJ. Honestly Kylo Ren is a force user and he is struggling against Royal guard? The scene is good looking the fight itself has nothing really impressive. And I really hate how Kylo Ren is moving , it looks like the lightsaber weighs 300 pounds
The thing is that scene is a bit too casaul. It's even shot very blase and the lighting is very flat. I think it's obvious at that time, Lucas didn't really have a fully formed idea of the Vader-Obi-Wan relationship, and probably not even the Vader character overall.
By the time the later drafts of Empire were done, I think then things crystallized for sure, and even then things were kinda all over the place (Leia wasn't supposed to be Luke's sister).
OP
OP
It's supposed to be two "masters" fighting and it looks nothing like that, at least in my opinion.
Yeah I get it. It´s an old movie with a restricted budged that nobody thought would eventually become a huge hit. I mean this whole movie was literally saved in the cut room because how awful some of the shots were. But I still think this scene is fine even if it lacks some deep explanation before and a dramatic high point after.
For me it's the forest fight in TFA with Finn/Rey vs. Kylo.
Great visuals, fairly simple but visceral fighting, and a powerful finish.
I also prefer the fight in the OP to anything in the prequels though. Lightsabers should be treated as deadly weapons not glow sticks at a fucking trance rave on the moon. Goddamn Yoda flips.
The scene in the OP isn't perfect, but it does actually play out near enough to the modern equivalent of samurai duels—kendo. Lots of sparring and batting at each other's weapons without risking opening their defensive stance.
Until Obi-Wan drops his guard with his come at me bro move.
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You can have both 🤷🏼♂️
I appreciate the tension and story driven fights, but I also enjoy watching flashy, bombastic battles. It is a movie after all, a visual medium. I'm not in it for the gritty, realistic sparring and poking, especially not in a space fantasy where the two opponents have fucking telekinetic and psychic mind powers
I have no problem with the scene.
If you overlook the retcons and the time and circumstances under which the movie was filmed it works fine.
Obiwan is old and he's basically stalling for time here. Vader is arrogant and more concerned with gloating over his former master and not even considering that Obiwan is playing the long game here and not trying to "win".
The fight distracts the troopers guarding the Falcon as soon as Obiwan sees that his mission is done he lets himself die knowing he's more useful to Luke as a force ghost.
If you overlook the retcons and the time and circumstances under which the movie was filmed it works fine.
Obiwan is old and he's basically stalling for time here. Vader is arrogant and more concerned with gloating over his former master and not even considering that Obiwan is playing the long game here and not trying to "win".
The fight distracts the troopers guarding the Falcon as soon as Obiwan sees that his mission is done he lets himself die knowing he's more useful to Luke as a force ghost.
Obi Wan was an old dude way out of practice who knew he could never beat Vader in a straight up fight. He was only trying to buy Luke time by keeping Vader occupied.
When he saw Luke was safe he basically went into prayer mode instead to become Force Jesus.
Not hard to understand the fight honestly.
When he saw Luke was safe he basically went into prayer mode instead to become Force Jesus.
Not hard to understand the fight honestly.
Aren't Jedi's suppose to be some kind of monks, their whole thing with the force is about being Zen, them wielding light sabres would realistically be in the form of self defense and redirection instead of meaningless flipkicks, vauts and twirling your lightsaber like someone from bandcamp. It was a bit stiff yeah but also more grounded and natural.
This.
I mean
This was made a couple decades later, so the tech to make it is much better. I'm sure Lucas would have done more if he could, in the 70's. Also, as mentioned, Kenobi wasn't all in on the fight, he was just delaying Vader.
The original trilogy doesn't really give much catharsis or payoff for a lot of the things set up in the prequels. Watching them from Episode 1 to 6 in plot order is interesting but yeah, if that's the order they were originally released people attached to Obi Wan and Anakin (or maybe even Yoda) would be pretty upset with how they were handled.
Force users or not, they are outnumbered and those royal guards are probably the most elite soldiers the FO has. And I rather have my heroes struggling in a fight than something without stakes.
You also miss the point of my post. That fight scene tells us something about Rey and Kylo and there relationship. It's not just action, there is something underneath
They were like that in the first movies (and kinda the sequels so far, at least with Luke) but I think most fans want them to be badass space ninjas at this point, since that's what they became in the games/prequels/EU.
I'd be happy for them to update the battle for the 4K release but only if the set also includes the original unaltered version.
I don't know, I think it makes sense for two young, highly skilled Jedi Kights that were trained in lightsaber combat to perform like they are young and highly skilled in lightsaber combat!?
Ben is an old man and Vader is atleast 50-60% machine in A New Hope so it would make more sense for them to be slower and have to put more effort into a swing.
Sure but then consider that Sith are not Jedi. Which means they fight more aggressively and determined. I'm sure they have to be trained for those exact situations.
If you want to go that route, consider what actual swordfighting masters look like.
The Obi Wan/Vader fight in ANH is much closer to those than the garbage video game cutscene in RotS.
its way worse than the shitty ATOC ones.
"Lets tap our sticks together softly "
The reality of the production is that they were dealing with delicate props and couldn't get away with much more.
But hey, historical context is for nerds.
People know WHY it is the way it is, they're just talking about how it seems from a modern perspective.
Pretty much. OP sounds like he's not even aware they weren't made in numerical order...
Also 99.9% bullshit.
It just seems strange to me to be so focused on aesthetic or technical qualities that were outside the control of the filmmakers.
Even without the prequels, I always thought that fight was lame. I know Obi-Wan is old but it doesn't even look like they're trying to hit each other. My favorite part is when Obi-Wan spins around slowly for no reason to swing and Vader doesn't capitalize. I get what they were going for with the twirl but it's way to slow to not just be Obi-Wan turning his back to Darth Vader.
George Lucas excuse for the difference in tone and style between the fights in the PT and OT were because Obi-Wan and Vader got way worse with age while Luke did not really know what he was doing. Its a really terrible explanation that completely undermines everything that happens in the original triology.
Maybe...maybe the onus was on the film made 30 years after A New Hope not to undermine what we'd already seen in the original movie? It's almost like A New Hope is immutable history and Episode 3, as a prequel, had the responsibility to adhere to what we'd seen before. Almost.
Ok but I don't see a fight where nothing is at stakes honestly. Qui gon dies in the fight versus Maul so you get a young Obi Wan who wants to avenge his master. Anakin got his arm chopped off in AOTC and OBI-WAN is completely neutralized by Dokku while Anakin turns to the dark side for the first time by cutting the head off of Dokku.
I get the hate again for the PT but everything is not as bad as everyone say it is. IMO
Yeah, when you don't know here your opponent is supposed to hit, your actions become a lot less flashy and more knee-jerk reactions. Doesn't look as good but makes more sense.
That said, yeah that first fight is terrible and doesn't have this excuse.
"weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
"Seem familiar? I learned this little trick from you, Darth."
This is why Rogue One is better than the prequels will ever be. It actually respects the style of the original film and doesn't show us anything that contradicts the immutable events of A New Hope. Any retcons it introduces (such as the origin of the Death Star flaw) complement and even enhance our understanding of the original film.
Between Lucas and now JK Rowling, why is this so hard?
Between Lucas and now JK Rowling, why is this so hard?
A 70 something old man who had no enthusiasm for this movie vs a guy in a bulky suit in a time where fight choreography wasn't a thing (to today's degree anyway) all directed by a guy who can barely do that. Yeah no kidding the fight isn't the greatest.
Dazed by sudden remembrance, Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, was utterly disarmed for the two and a half minutes his aging master took to spin around and raise his lightsaber.
"Seem familiar? I learned this little trick from you, Darth."
That, and the prequels are just fundamentally broken in terms of basic storytelling, direction, dialogue, and performance. Never mind all the ways the Prequel Trilogy doesn't square with the original movies.
Who the hell is going to look at Anakin an Obi-Wan's friendship and falling out, Anakin and Padme's relationship, or Anakin's fall and go "Gosh, that was so damn well done. Top quality drama. Just how I would have imagined it"?
Besides which, Rogue One was clearly made by people who not only appreciated the style of the OT, but grasped the human themes at the core of the series. In contrast to the PT's weird unfocused and clumsy narrative that lingers on marginal stuff when it should be developing a strong story that drives toward the key events.
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Yep, go straight to flips. There's no middle ground. Didn't like the fight, so clearly they wanted more flips.