it's a hypothetical scenario if FF was a first-party franchise
everyone included will be linked to cloud in some inexplicable fashion even through you can literally tell everyone apart in a glance, similar to marth
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The number of Fire Emblem characters in Smash is fine: A defense of the large amount of FE characters in the roster
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
everyone included will be linked to cloud in some inexplicable fashion even through you can literally tell everyone apart in a glance, similar to marth
I guess it can go alongside the hypothetical scenario where Call of Duty is a first-party franchise and we're complaining about too many generic guy with gun characters in Smash.
I personally think that jrpg reps are much more visually distinct than soldiermen, but yea
If it HAD to be a Three Houses rep, it should have been Claude or Edelgard. Byleth is no one's except the absolute worst of the self-insertiest weeb/otakus favorite character, and whatever energy Sakurai spent to spin Byleth, could have just been used on an axe-woman, or a bowman. Both of which there are fewer of in Smash. I don't think consumers are so braindead that Edelgard or Claude wouldn't serve JUST as well as advertising for Three Houses as our blanker-than-Link self insert protag.
At this point we should just be petitioning IS to make the next protagonist not have blue or white hair. Give us a black main character, then she'll get into Smash 6!
Whoa there. I'll have you know 2019 Modern Warfare Soldierman has a completely new and unique moveset.
I doubt there would be many complaints if characters like tidus, squall or sephiroth were added. 95% of the complaints are because people don't like/care about fire emblem not "anime swordsmen". Most just don't want to admit.
I am not familiar with all the new Fire Emblem characters, which is why they look like generic anime fighters without much personality and background. I know that is not true, and they are probably really rich characters, but I believe this only pleases Fire Emblem fans.
what are you talking about? they all shoot the same bullets, theres no difference
why did I waste my 5.99 on
"IF" final fantasy were to be a first-party IP then the discourse will be exactly like that. People will be calling lightning "girl cloud", squall "gunblade cloud" and Zack "palette change cloud" despite all of them being very different characters, similar to what we're seeing with "marth clones".
Pokémon is much more iconic, huge and varied in designs/movesets, yet people were throwing hands over the fire wrestler tiger. There's literally no way to win this.
Don't worry, they're not actually rich characters. Being main characters limits what the writing is allowed to do with them.
Well, some of them are rich financially. Not so much from a character standpoint.
"See, you're all hypocrites in this hypothetical alternate universe. Hypocrites!"
Mario isn't exactly the shining beacon of personality either in comparison to his brother. Peach also has like no personality whatsover other than to be bubbly.
Hero and Link are the blankest of slates. Thoughts as blank as a white piece of paper and very expressionless.
I legit don't know what personality has to do with anything.
Hero and Link are the blankest of slates. Thoughts as blank as a white piece of paper and very expressionless.
I legit don't know what personality has to do with anything.
My main issue with Fire Emblem is that 4 out of 8 characters use the same moveset with very minor changes at best. And while I understand why, I'm still not happy about it. Chrom absolutely was not necessary, imo.
If we had to get a Three Houses character, Claude would have been the ideal candidate.
He would've been a PoC (not just alt) in a game where there's none outside of a few costumes.
He would've been given a bow as main weapon - which also was the reason I'd been stanning for Decidueye before Ultimate's release. There are no dedicated bow users in Smash to this date - the Links only use it in one move, and Pit's bow function also is only used in one move. A character like Hawkeye in MvC3 would have been really cool.
Edelgard would've been a good second choice - she's popular, would add female representation, but I also feel like the difference between an axe user and a heavy sword user, i.e. Ike, is overstated. In the end, she likely would've felt very similar to Ike.
Anyway, Fire Emblem has been a big success recently, with Awakening and Three Houses having performed excellently, and yes, it has a rotating cast. However, while it certainly is on upward swing, I can't say I agree with the notion that it 'deserves' as many characters as Pokemon or Mario (and frankly, I don't count Daisy as an actual character, she's literally just a glorified alt costume since the single difference she had to Peach was patched out because it was accidental).
Personally, I've always wanted the more recurring characters such as Anna, and deuteragonist characters like Micaiah over the boring swordlords. The only addition that I don't mind at all is, ironically enough, Corrin, because they actually play incredibly differently from the others, and barely even use their sword in their moveset, rather transforming it into a spear or partially transforming into a dragon instead. In a vacuum I would be fine with Robin as well, even though I would have preferred if their entire moveset was made up of magic rather than having the sword for the brunt of their moves.
If we had to get a Three Houses character, Claude would have been the ideal candidate.
He would've been a PoC (not just alt) in a game where there's none outside of a few costumes.
He would've been given a bow as main weapon - which also was the reason I'd been stanning for Decidueye before Ultimate's release. There are no dedicated bow users in Smash to this date - the Links only use it in one move, and Pit's bow function also is only used in one move. A character like Hawkeye in MvC3 would have been really cool.
Edelgard would've been a good second choice - she's popular, would add female representation, but I also feel like the difference between an axe user and a heavy sword user, i.e. Ike, is overstated. In the end, she likely would've felt very similar to Ike.
Anyway, Fire Emblem has been a big success recently, with Awakening and Three Houses having performed excellently, and yes, it has a rotating cast. However, while it certainly is on upward swing, I can't say I agree with the notion that it 'deserves' as many characters as Pokemon or Mario (and frankly, I don't count Daisy as an actual character, she's literally just a glorified alt costume since the single difference she had to Peach was patched out because it was accidental).
Personally, I've always wanted the more recurring characters such as Anna, and deuteragonist characters like Micaiah over the boring swordlords. The only addition that I don't mind at all is, ironically enough, Corrin, because they actually play incredibly differently from the others, and barely even use their sword in their moveset, rather transforming it into a spear or partially transforming into a dragon instead. In a vacuum I would be fine with Robin as well, even though I would have preferred if their entire moveset was made up of magic rather than having the sword for the brunt of their moves.
To be honest, I wonder what IS's aversion is to Anna or if she's just not that popular. It's been kind of annoying to be honest. Even in Fire Emblem Heroes, she only just got in roughly 3 years later after hundreds of different alts for the same popular characters over and over.
I would love Anna in Smash and to be in more things in general.
I would love Anna in Smash and to be in more things in general.
I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it if every FE character in the game didn't have the same problem, seemingly unique to its franchise in Smash, of being the blandest looking "person with sword" if you're unfamiliar with the source material, and Byleth just drives that point home even further (I guess Corrin's an exception because they're some weird dragon person?). At the end of the day, it's a personal thing, but I'm never going to touch FE characters because they're just so god damn boring on a surface level to me, no matter what their movesets look like. I can't think of any other characters from other franchises represented in Ultimate that you can't look at and immediately perceive some sort of personality/charm from.
She's like the Tingle of Fire Emblem at this point lol.
Cool recurring shopkeep character that would be cool to have in more material and in Smash, but not allowed.
Three Houses sold because of the overall product. With that said, you're generally right. Edelgard & Claude both represent something that Smash desperately needs on the roster.
While I'm a bit more forgiving of Chrom since he's a textbook low risk/high reward regarding him being an easy echo to add, you honestly put it perfectly. Claude could have brought the archer archetype to Smash when Decidueye didn't make the cut while bringing ethnic diversity to the roster as being a prominent person of color, while Edelgard could have been a heavy axe user with hits that would rival Ganondorf while being Smash's second female villain .
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I mean, the development time for the Chrom Echo could've gone into Alph/Brittany, Ms. Pac-Man, Roll/Proto Man, Jeanne/Rodin, Impa, maybe even Medusa etc.
Ultimately, I don't mind Chrom's inclusion as much solely because he is an Echo, but we definitely could have done without "Lucina but with Ike's Up B and Roy's Jab/Aerials". I do know that he's popular and Awakening did well but it definitely is a bloat, especially considering we do have Robin and Lucina already.
Also Dark Samus.
Thanks for the correction regarding the spoiler.
I do get your point, though Rodin would need to be a semi-clone rather than an echo like Jeanne would be.
Fair. I never played Bayonetta games beyond the tutorial mission of 1 (not my style of game, though I can respect it).
I only was going off of Rodin doing the same kind of Madama Butterfly-styled attacks as AT.
He was originally an American opossum that watched the movie Young Einstein like 50 times.
I didn't stutter.
I completely disagree.
The beauty of Smash is that its a love letter to gaming.
Any video game character from any franchise can join in from any genre into a giant gaming cross over.
The possibilities are endless.
You could have characters from Doom, Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, Ace Attorney, Hatsune Miku, Crash ANYTHING.
With limitless possibilities you chose another character from the same fucking franchise that already has got multiple reps.
At least with Mario, Zelda and Donkey Kong those are some of the most influential franchises in gaming history, that makes their extra inclusions acceptable.
But Fire Emblem's over representation is just a blatant advertisement to push the franchise, to me their characters are like a can of Monster Energy in Death Stranding, advertising.
And in regards to anime swordsman and and blue hair fire emblem character, I agree with those complaints, gaming has so much different art styles to offer, why is the cast of gamings greatest celebration is so disproportionately anime?
And why does a chunk all look like Marth?
The beauty of Smash is that its a love letter to gaming.
Any video game character from any franchise can join in from any genre into a giant gaming cross over.
The possibilities are endless.
You could have characters from Doom, Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, Ace Attorney, Hatsune Miku, Crash ANYTHING.
With limitless possibilities you chose another character from the same fucking franchise that already has got multiple reps.
At least with Mario, Zelda and Donkey Kong those are some of the most influential franchises in gaming history, that makes their extra inclusions acceptable.
But Fire Emblem's over representation is just a blatant advertisement to push the franchise, to me their characters are like a can of Monster Energy in Death Stranding, advertising.
And in regards to anime swordsman and and blue hair fire emblem character, I agree with those complaints, gaming has so much different art styles to offer, why is the cast of gamings greatest celebration is so disproportionately anime?
And why does a chunk all look like Marth?
My issue with FE is how samey most of the choices have been, not the inclusions themself. I'm not familiar with the series, but I'm sure they could get a more varied selection.
lmao.
I don't even know where to start here. So if a game or any piece of media doesn't have a sequel in 10 years, it's a flop? Like, I can't believe The Beatles flopped so hard.
The Smash roster is filled with flops then:
lmao.
I don't even know where to start here. So if a game or any piece of media doesn't have a sequel in 10 years, it's a flop? Like, I can't believe The Beatles flopped so hard.
The Smash roster is filled with flops then:
- Ice Climbers
- Game and Watch
- ROB
- Duck Hunt
- Ness
- Lucas
- Captain Falcon
I'm talking about defaults and people perception. You cant deny it matters when all this Fire Emblem discussion is going on.
I don't agree, representing one franchise that already has to much representation is the issue. Fire emblem is a great game series but getting a character like sora or Dante is way more exciting and potential way more interesting than most fire emblem characters.
Maybe you are talking about a specific version but in FEH Anna has been from the begining, its one of the three main characters besides the summoner.
......you can tell them apart can't you? By that argument how are the FE chars any more boring looking/less distinct than shulk/cloud/hero? What defines "charm"?
Just speculating, but it's entirely possible that he was added in because he was highly requested? It's not like i have proof, but if so that might answer your question :)
I mean why does it matter. Sakurai has explained multiple times that hey, echoes and clones don't take up additional development time. If i were at a buffet and desserts i dislike were placed in front of me and the option was there for me to remove them, i'll just ask the waiter to remove it! I for one am not going to get mad because the cook didn't take additional time to cook these desserts and if other people like it, why should i call it out?
I personally think at least 1 can go from the current roster all of these franchises. 2 or 3 from Pokemon and 3 or 4 from FE. But with Ultimate and everyone returning, I allow it. No excuse for more representation via the DLC though.
I'm aware Chrom was highly requested, you don't need to smartass at me. In fact, I literally say in the post you quoted that I know that he's popular.
But my point wasn't that he was or wasn't a highly requested character, my point was that there would've been choices that would have reflected better on the diversity on the roster by having another female character instead and on the moveset variety as well. We already had 3 Marths. We only have one Olimar, Megaman, Sheik, etc.
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What is really strange is we have eight Fire Emblem characters and Lyn is just relegated to being an Assist Trophy...
OP
OP
A recurring take I have seen in this thread is that "All of them play the same!". I really don't see in any objective manner you could say that unless you are talking about Lucina and Marth, or Roy and Chrom, or arguably Marth and Roy
I think that last one much less so as Roy is much more differentiated in Smash For and Ultimate than he was in Melee.
Ike is heavy character like Bowser or Ganondorf with two charging specials. Robin barely uses swords and all his specials are magic (him in particular I don't know how you can look at him and say "sword wielder just like the others"). Corrin has unique mechanics like being able to charge a Smash attack and damage enemies that touch you while you charge it, the impale is a lot of fun to use, and his projectile with and delayed launch doubling as a brutal melee attack is a unique mechanic.
The only point I will concede is that all of them except Robin have counters, albeit Corrin's has significant differences from the others. Sakruai talked about why most of the FE characters have counters in the Byleth video, and I think his reasoning makes sense: part of FE games is about positioning units to kill enemies with counter attacks, so replicating this in some form makes sense for Smash. There's something to be said about many characters in Smash having counters, but I don't mind them. I actually find them fun.
I think that last one much less so as Roy is much more differentiated in Smash For and Ultimate than he was in Melee.
Ike is heavy character like Bowser or Ganondorf with two charging specials. Robin barely uses swords and all his specials are magic (him in particular I don't know how you can look at him and say "sword wielder just like the others"). Corrin has unique mechanics like being able to charge a Smash attack and damage enemies that touch you while you charge it, the impale is a lot of fun to use, and his projectile with and delayed launch doubling as a brutal melee attack is a unique mechanic.
The only point I will concede is that all of them except Robin have counters, albeit Corrin's has significant differences from the others. Sakruai talked about why most of the FE characters have counters in the Byleth video, and I think his reasoning makes sense: part of FE games is about positioning units to kill enemies with counter attacks, so replicating this in some form makes sense for Smash. There's something to be said about many characters in Smash having counters, but I don't mind them. I actually find them fun.
My biggest complaint is that Fire Emblem as a franchise has so many unique characters and they always pick the main heroes. Not that they're bad choices, mind you, they're just predictable.
As many others have stated, it's not necessarily bad that they are 8 FE reps (that is crazy tho), it's the fact that they are all blue haired swordsman. Hell, most of them share at least 1 move (counter). Especially when you have so many unique and interesting characters from those same games.
No Lyn? Black Knight? Titania?
No Lyn? Black Knight? Titania?
When they showed that moment in the trailer where Male Byleth got his ass kicked and Sothis made the joke about the sword users and the 3 crests glowed on screen, I thought for a second we were gonna be able to play as all 3 house leaders and I was gonna lose my mind.
They went with the absolute blandest choice imaginable and I feel like the backlash is partly because of that
In my mind it's not even necessarily that their sword-based movesets are the same, it's that on an actual functional basis for what you're DOING with them is the same. Marth, Chrom, Lucina, Roy, and Ike are all defined by one single verb: swing a sword. No matter the move, it is always "swing a sword." Corrin, Byleth, and Robin in particular have other verbs they do, and it makes them feel more unique amongst the other characters.
Compared to characters from other franchises, it isn't surprising to see how they feel similar. Pokemon's verbs range from breathing fire, spitting water, summoning thunderbolts, psychic abilities, and more. Mario characters, with the exception of Dr. Mario and Luigi, have entirely unique moves they do compared to every other character. No two Metroid characters play the same or do the same things except Samus and Dark Samus.
If anything, Zelda has a similar problem to FE in my mind, where so many of them utilize a single weapon type. But at the very least the things you can DO as the different Links are unique amongst the entire cast: throw a boomerang, bombs, arrows, etc.
I dunno. Like yeah, most of the FE characters have a different moveset with different properties, but on paper you are just swinging a sword and it just feels like a less exciting playstyle to me. I don't want any cuts obviously, but it is very clear that Fire Emblem isn't being used to its full potential in Smash and it absolutely has some frivolous character choices.
Compared to characters from other franchises, it isn't surprising to see how they feel similar. Pokemon's verbs range from breathing fire, spitting water, summoning thunderbolts, psychic abilities, and more. Mario characters, with the exception of Dr. Mario and Luigi, have entirely unique moves they do compared to every other character. No two Metroid characters play the same or do the same things except Samus and Dark Samus.
If anything, Zelda has a similar problem to FE in my mind, where so many of them utilize a single weapon type. But at the very least the things you can DO as the different Links are unique amongst the entire cast: throw a boomerang, bombs, arrows, etc.
I dunno. Like yeah, most of the FE characters have a different moveset with different properties, but on paper you are just swinging a sword and it just feels like a less exciting playstyle to me. I don't want any cuts obviously, but it is very clear that Fire Emblem isn't being used to its full potential in Smash and it absolutely has some frivolous character choices.
It's not that they dislike the characters that do exist, it's that the characters that could exist sound so much cooler and would fill interesting holes in Smash's archetype of fighters. Corrin and Byleth don't feel like they fill a gap in the way that a pegasus knight or a dude in a comically large set of armor would. It's about the opportunity cost of the characters more so than their actual movesets.
I think Smash 4 and then Chrom in Ultimate was the real icing on the cake. With Smash 4 bringing Roy back (who was lame addition even in melee let alone being one of the few DLC characters brought back over characters like Snake/Wolf), and then Corrin of all characters being a Smash 4 DLC character, on top of the game getting 2 new FE reps in general, Smash 4 had already sewn the seeds of intense Fire Emblem hate.
But I think this flames could have been cooled if it was paced better. I think this would have went so much better if Roy skipped 4 and came back along with the other "everyone is here" vets. He was perfect for that, as he was a the bottom of the barrel returning vet along with characters like Pichu. People would have celebrated it rather than be kind of confused and agitated by it.
Chrom should have just been skipped entirely. Yes I know he was requested but plenty of characters are. Awakening alone does not need 3 reps, and the last thing FE needed was another clone. Looking back this seemed like it was more like a some fans want him + Sakurai loves FE = Chrom type of deal. Hell he was already in Robin's FS for Christ sakes, did we really need him? And I really LIKE Chrom. He's probably my favorite character in Awakening.
If things all went like that, Blythe could have released as DLC just as he is now (albeit with maybe a little less hype behind it). Then I think reaction still wouldn't have been great, but the negative would have been far more understated and there would have been more hype around the character. As it is now, while I think the reaction is in the end gotten way too absurd considering how amazing Ultimate is overall, it's also not hard to see why people are pissed.
Fire Emblem characters have clearly been given some sort of priority in Sakurai's eyes at this point, and have been sprinkled throughout the series since 4 at an incredibly brisk pace, more than any other series. Considering quite a few of these characters are barely even characters in their own games in the first place on top of that (Roy, Corrin, Byleth), it just makes it even worse considering there's still so many video game characters out there that are unique as fuck.
Not including Roy, we have gotten FIVE new FE characters since Smash 4. In two games. FIVE. Has ANY other series done that? I think the only other jump that can compare was the Mario series from OG Smash to Melee, and I think that was only 4 additional ones right? Did Mario get any new representation in Brawl? Don't remember.
Edit : Actually Mario only got 3 new reps in Melee. And got NO new ones in Brawl, actually lost Doc. So yeah not even Nintendo's flagship series can compare to FE when it comes to new characters added between games. That's crazy.
But I think this flames could have been cooled if it was paced better. I think this would have went so much better if Roy skipped 4 and came back along with the other "everyone is here" vets. He was perfect for that, as he was a the bottom of the barrel returning vet along with characters like Pichu. People would have celebrated it rather than be kind of confused and agitated by it.
Chrom should have just been skipped entirely. Yes I know he was requested but plenty of characters are. Awakening alone does not need 3 reps, and the last thing FE needed was another clone. Looking back this seemed like it was more like a some fans want him + Sakurai loves FE = Chrom type of deal. Hell he was already in Robin's FS for Christ sakes, did we really need him? And I really LIKE Chrom. He's probably my favorite character in Awakening.
If things all went like that, Blythe could have released as DLC just as he is now (albeit with maybe a little less hype behind it). Then I think reaction still wouldn't have been great, but the negative would have been far more understated and there would have been more hype around the character. As it is now, while I think the reaction is in the end gotten way too absurd considering how amazing Ultimate is overall, it's also not hard to see why people are pissed.
Fire Emblem characters have clearly been given some sort of priority in Sakurai's eyes at this point, and have been sprinkled throughout the series since 4 at an incredibly brisk pace, more than any other series. Considering quite a few of these characters are barely even characters in their own games in the first place on top of that (Roy, Corrin, Byleth), it just makes it even worse considering there's still so many video game characters out there that are unique as fuck.
Not including Roy, we have gotten FIVE new FE characters since Smash 4. In two games. FIVE. Has ANY other series done that? I think the only other jump that can compare was the Mario series from OG Smash to Melee, and I think that was only 4 additional ones right? Did Mario get any new representation in Brawl? Don't remember.
Edit : Actually Mario only got 3 new reps in Melee. And got NO new ones in Brawl, actually lost Doc. So yeah not even Nintendo's flagship series can compare to FE when it comes to new characters added between games. That's crazy.
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The problem is that; Marth, Roy, Chrom and Luciana are essentially the exact same character with different properties. Ike and Corrin play differently but are still Sword users and still have a counter.
Byleth is alright cause his move set looks interesting at least but I think most people's problem is that there are SO many better choices from that game that Byleth is a huge waste.
Byleth is alright cause his move set looks interesting at least but I think most people's problem is that there are SO many better choices from that game that Byleth is a huge waste.
The issue for me isn't that they aren't fun to play, it's that they are not visually interesting. Most of the humans in the game are not visually interesting. There are some exceptions like Link. I guess he is hylian, but he has a distinct silhouette and shape.
I like the weird stuff like Duck Hunt dog and Pirahna Plant. The Fire Emblem characters are just so boring looking. You could replace them with any of human character from a different franchise and I'd feel the same way.
I like the weird stuff like Duck Hunt dog and Pirahna Plant. The Fire Emblem characters are just so boring looking. You could replace them with any of human character from a different franchise and I'd feel the same way.
There are so many other better selling and more popular franchises that deserve to get in too. Fire Emblem has as many characters as the Mario games, but isn't nearly as popular or recognizable.
I mean, if it had to be another blue haired anime swordsman, maybe get the Howard twins from Astral Chain. At least we get another franchise represented and some sweet Legion attacks or something. Fire Emblem just isn't a franchise that I feel is worthy having as many characters in as it does. It will soon have the most characters represented at this rate.
I mean, if it had to be another blue haired anime swordsman, maybe get the Howard twins from Astral Chain. At least we get another franchise represented and some sweet Legion attacks or something. Fire Emblem just isn't a franchise that I feel is worthy having as many characters in as it does. It will soon have the most characters represented at this rate.
Yes clones dont take up too much time (everything takes development time) but why take that little time on FE characters when you can take that little time on characters from another franchises like for example as me an another person said in this thread Dixie Kong por something like Impa as a Sheik clone like other people suggested.
Yes they are free desserts, but maybe if all your desserts taste like lemon maybe people are not crazy or ungrateful for suggesting if some of them can taste like chocolate instead.
People would have been disappointed at most but really it that mad about it, if the announcement had been made at another time and another way.
The timing was awful, and the presentation itself wasn't a good idea imo, especially with that Sakurai speech in the introduction that seemed out of place for this character.
It's really unfortunate because the character itself, as you said OP, has many good reasons to be there, but it's like Nintendo/Sora somehow managed to make things much worse regarding the reveal.
The timing was awful, and the presentation itself wasn't a good idea imo, especially with that Sakurai speech in the introduction that seemed out of place for this character.
It's really unfortunate because the character itself, as you said OP, has many good reasons to be there, but it's like Nintendo/Sora somehow managed to make things much worse regarding the reveal.
The easiest way to fix this in a way that'd still adhere to Everyone is Here is to downgrade Lucina and Chrom to alts.
You would be sacrificing Chrom's uniqueness and a female in a roster of very few females.... but you would still be trimming FE from 8 to 6.
You would be sacrificing Chrom's uniqueness and a female in a roster of very few females.... but you would still be trimming FE from 8 to 6.
Smash doesn't do a good job of introducing FE to people unfamiliar with the series. I hate the blank stares that all the characters have for some reason. And the bits of characterization are often completely unlike their actual personalities. Marth is not a "prissy princeling", Ike isn't a "soft spoken musclehead", Robin could've used some Grima influences to add spice to his generic hero portrayal, Roy is actually a nerdy kid, Lucina is a deeply traumatized woman... the rest are pretty generic even in their games though.
You havent given a good reason why when this game favours characters in franchises over others all of the time.
honey it's 2020 and you have access to the internet, you have access to literally unlimited amounts of music from all over the world, there's no need to pretend the beatles weren't hot garbage anymore. stream some big freedia or something, sheesh!