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Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
They are the leads of their respective routes

Their roles in other routes doesnt change their leading roles in their own routes. The bloody stage is based off the school period so who gives a shit about their pts roles.

Claude, Dmitri and Edelgard are all on the damn boxart, taking more space than Byleth and are what everything in the game revolves around. Byleth is a non-character and no amount of spin is going to make him/her the right choice in a sea of white dudes with swords.
None of them are the central figure of the whole game. Byleth is. Byleth is the POV character and exists in the center of the conflict regardless of the house choice made.

There are arguments to be made for diversity, but there was no way that Edelgard or Claude would be picked over Byleth simply for the reason that they're ultimately second fiddles in their game.
 

Deleted member 4247

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,896
As someone who's not a FE fan, it's ridiculous to see all these characters that to me seem more or less the same.

Nobody I know knows anything about FE, while they would recognize most other Smash characters. Just not a popular franchise here AFAIK.
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
If we wanted, classic pig Gannon could represent classic Zelda titles.
I mean...I've been caping for the blue boar forever. But as others say, we haven't had a wholly new Zelda rep since Toon Link, if you want to be generous. Even if you wanted to stick with the main three-four chars, there's no shortage of ground still left to cover.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,503
Massachusetts
Everything can be traced back to Corrin:
  1. Being the only first party dlc Newcomer
  2. Having only two music tracks without a stage
  3. Second FE character that was dlc
  4. Being the fourth FE character added in Smash 4 (after Robin, Lucina and Roy)
  5. Being a blatant ad for a game
  6. Fates being one of the worst games character and story wise (Like seriously not only Corrin is so dumb in a bad way but the way the did to keep the children mechanic was so stupid, makes all the parents terrible people and makes you character being paired with one of them or the younger characters so weird)
If Corrin (and to a lesser extent Chrom) was not added instead being replaced with someone like Elma the reaction to Byleth would been better

Edit: For the people saying that the moveset makes up for it, wasn't that the defense that led to MvC Infinite "Functions" meme? Why is in that game was a valid critique but here not?
Yeah, Corrin was the breaking point. Their trailer was really hard to watch.

I think the idea behind adding Lucina and Chrom-- characters who are very similar to existing ones but with simpler mechanics or small but meaningful changes-- is something they should do more of. Like, if Dixie was Diddy but functionally had Donkey Kong's Up-B, Doc Louis was Mac with less speed but better survival, etc. Alternatively, I think fans of characters like Chrom and Lucina would've been satisfied even just to get the Koopa Kids treatment.
 

McNum

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,194
Denmark
Yeah, Corrin was the breaking point. Their trailer was really hard to watch.

I think the idea behind adding Lucina and Chrom-- characters who are very similar to existing ones but with simpler mechanics or small but meaningful changes-- is something they should do more of. Like, if Dixie was Diddy but functionally had Donkey Kong's Up-B, Doc Louis was Mac with less speed but better survival, etc. Alternatively, I think fans of characters like Chrom and Lucina would've been satisfied even just to get the Koopa Kids treatment.
The weird thing about echo characters is that if you look at Fire Emblem Warriors, Lucina is not a Marth clone. She uses Chrom's moveset. Chrom, in turn, should have been an Ike echo in Smash since he's all about the power moves.

Of course in Warriors, Celica is a Marth clone, which is just weird. But Robin doesn't use a sword in Warriors, so she can't echo him there, even if she'd work great as a Robin echo in Smash.
 

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
Its ok that people are punishing Nintendo for choosing marketing over fan wishes. Dont defend them please.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,927
Everything can be traced back to Corrin:
  1. Being the only first party dlc Newcomer
  2. Having only two music tracks without a stage
  3. Second FE character that was dlc
  4. Being the fourth FE character added in Smash 4 (after Robin, Lucina and Roy)
  5. Being a blatant ad for a game
  6. Fates being one of the worst games character and story wise (Like seriously not only Corrin is so dumb in a bad way but the way the did to keep the children mechanic was so stupid, makes all the parents terrible people and makes you character being paired with one of them or the younger characters so weird)
If Corrin (and to a lesser extent Chrom) was not added instead being replaced with someone like Elma the reaction to Byleth would been better

Edit: For the people saying that the moveset makes up for it, wasn't that the defense that led to MvC Infinite "Functions" meme? Why is that a valid critique for Marvel but not for Smash?

Wasnt Marvel a case of not having every character from 3 not returning and the Marvel side being shittier? Because that isn't part of the equation for Ultimate.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,744
Canada
None of them are the central figure of the whole game. Byleth is. Byleth is the POV character and exists in the center of the conflict regardless of the house choice made.

There are arguments to be made for diversity, but there was no way that Edelgard or Claude would be picked over Byleth simply for the reason that they're ultimately second fiddles in their game.
This game is Smash Bros, not Three Houses. They dont have to be the central figure of the whole game to have a reason to be in. They are just as much leading characters for a large majority of it and can continue to be so depending on your choice, which Sakurai even brough up while he was advertising it in the Direct.

If you're going to use buts and excuses, just please dont even bother. Im not interested in hearing this same tired excuse that has been trotted out all of the damn time to justify a shitty status quo. It is disingenuous as hell that youre even attempting to minimize their role
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,784
Lucario doesn't share any moves with Mewtwo except for Neutral B

Tilts and F Smash I believe are very similar.

Nobody, not even Zelda fans, like the fact that Zelda is represented by three Links, two Zeldas, and one Ganondorf.

Also, Lucario is not an Echo of Mewtwo, and Ganondorf has been different from Falcon since Brawl.

Mario and Luigi share a single move, I'm pretty sure, and both of their fireballs behave differently.

Trust me, I know, I wanted Urbosa for Smash Ultimate.

Half of Ganondorf's moveset is still the same as Falcon.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,490
Dallas, TX
I don't mind lots of Fire Emblems, but always picking the sort of main character keeps it pretty boring. They did things like making Robin more of a mage and focusing on weapon switching with Byleth, but they still end up as visually similar character holding a sword. Going with a dedicated mage, or heavy knight with an axe, or something would spice things up.

Overall though, I get it. Fire Emblem and Pokemon are the only Nintendo games that regularly have new releases that add new characters, and so you generally do get one new from each of those per gen. Though Zelda gets kind of fucked by that standard. If Zelda got the same character-per-game treatment we'd have something like Midna, Ghiralhim, and Urbosa playable.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
This game is Smash Bros, not Three Houses. They dont have to be the central figure of the whole game to have a reason to be in. They are just as much leading characters for a large majority of it and can continue to be so depending on your choice, which Sakurai even brough up while he was advertising it in the Direct.

If you're going to use buts and excuses, just please dont even bother. Im not interested in hearing this same tired excuse that has been trotted out all of the damn time to justify a shitty status quo. It is disingenuous as hell that youre even attempting to minimize their role
I'm not using buts and excuses. Look at the FE characters in Smash. They're all leads or co-lead of their respective games. And the avatar character Robin got in as a unique fighter over Lucina (originally a Marth alt promoted to an Echo) and Chrom (whose Smash 4 exclusion was a punchline in a trailer).
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,895
None of them are the central figure of the whole game. Byleth is. Byleth is the POV character and exists in the center of the conflict regardless of the house choice made.

There are arguments to be made for diversity, but there was no way that Edelgard or Claude would be picked over Byleth simply for the reason that they're ultimately second fiddles in their game.

Edelgard is far more important to the plot than Byleth in almost every route except for Claude's. She either has the role of the main hero or the main villain in all the others.
But, honestly, I don't think it matters. "But they're the main character" doesn't work for a franchise that is already established in Smash. There's no magical grand rule or precedent that would be broken by adding a secondary main character in a franchise. It's not like there would be an outcry from either fanbase if Byleth had been superseded by a more popular character like Edelgard or Claude. I don't see how it's relevant unless someone has an unchangeable, iron clad definition of how newcomers work in Smash, which we know isn't how Sakurai works.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I'm fine with all the Fire Emblem love personally, I used to be salty but when they actually do something interesting with the gameplay it's worth it. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all seem pretty unique, and I couldn't really be mad at Chrom considering how relatively easy he must have been to implement.

What just sours it a little for me is the lack of attention Zelda gets in comparison, and it's almost certainly down to some dumb internal rule that one-off characters shouldn't get a shot. Hell I'd even be fine with the Link clones getting more versatile movesets to better represent their games (Masks for Young Link, Deku Leaf etc. for Toon Link) but nope, just BotW Link got that treatment. It's just bizarre. At least Zelda gets solid stage representation, I guess.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,909
Nah.

Eight characters is overkill, especially when they're not wildly different like the Pokemon are.
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
IMO, there's nothing that needs to be defended. Nice OP but the decision with so many FE reps is so so so so bad really. It's a niche IP in regards to others and has way too many characters in this game. I would've literally shout if I would've bought the first fighters pass. Waste of money really.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
None of them are the central figure of the whole game. Byleth is. Byleth is the POV character and exists in the center of the conflict regardless of the house choice made.

There are arguments to be made for diversity, but there was no way that Edelgard or Claude would be picked over Byleth simply for the reason that they're ultimately second fiddles in their game.

This doesn't even matter, if you have 4 main characters and 3 of them are both more interesting and have something new to offer in Smash, why prioritize the 1 who is the most boring just because it happens to be the player avatar?

And Byleth isn't the focus of 3H plot, Edelgard is. The theme song is from her POV. She plays a crucial role in all 4 routes. The entire second half of the game doesn't happen without her. So using your own argument is just another strike for Byleth being chosen over her.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,037
They just need to fix it by including the most popular and yet officially ignored Fire Emblem character, ST Falcon.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
Tilts and F Smash I believe are very similar.
Lucario's and Mewtwo's tilts are nothing alike. I guess their forward Smashes are similar, in the same way that Kirby and Fox have the same up Smash. But that's a hilariously weak justification for calling Lucario "just barely above the threshold of being an echo".
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,744
Canada
I'm not using buts and excuses. Look at the FE characters in Smash. They're all leads or co-lead of their respective games. And the avatar character Robin got in as a unique fighter over Lucina (originally a Marth alt promoted to an Echo) and Chrom (whose Smash 4 exclusion was a punchline in a trailer).
Co-leads, you mean like the three houses lords that you are actively trying to minimize? You are absolutely just making excuses. Byleth did not have to be who they chose.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,503
Massachusetts
The weird thing about echo characters is that if you look at Fire Emblem Warriors, Lucina is not a Marth clone. She uses Chrom's moveset. Chrom, in turn, should have been an Ike echo in Smash since he's all about the power moves.

Of course in Warriors, Celica is a Marth clone, which is just weird. But Robin doesn't use a sword in Warriors, so she can't echo him there, even if she'd work great as a Robin echo in Smash.
Weird since Lucina is basically a Marth clone within FE Awakening itself. I figure Chrom having a similar moveset is a nod to how Lucina says she learned how to fight from him.
 

Roliq

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,193
Wasnt Marvel a case of not having every character from 3 not returning and the Marvel side being shittier? Because that isn't part of the equation for Ultimate.
Sure but the thing is that showed that people care about characters first, moveset second which is the thing that can be applied to Ultimate, even if Byleth had the most interesting moveset in the game the reaction would be the same because it's another blank faced, sword wielding, male-with-a-female-alt FE character
 

VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
Three games across a decade, themselves over a decade ago? Sure Jan Dot Gif.

Banjo-Kazooie was in the top 10 best-selling N64 games, selling approximately 4million units on a platform that didn't have strong software unit movements...
Categorizing it as a flop because Microsoft doesn't know what to do with the IP is laughable.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,895
I think people are misjudging the importance of aesthetics.

Like, you can create a cogent argument about how they all play differently, and are deserving on their own merits, but I don't think that matters. That could work in a void, but, for a lot of people, they see 8 very similar looking characters, with visually similar movesets, and it seems redundant. And that criticism is just as valid as any of the "but mechanically, they're all different" defences. Because people see Smash Bros differently.
 

McNum

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,194
Denmark
Weird since Lucina is basically a Marth clone within FE Awakening itself. I figure Chrom having a similar moveset is a nod to how Lucina says she learned how to fight from him.

It's probably because they have Chrom and Lucina be the AoE swordspeople in Warriors. Big overextended swings to hit lots of enemies. Marth is a duelist. He's worse at clearing crowds, but he wrecks stronger foes 1-on-1 thanks to his blindingly fast linear speed.

And just to make it all extra confusing. In Awakening, the Marth you can get from DLC is a Lucina clone. He uses her moves which are based on Chrom's.

So the whole Marth, Lucina, Chrom triangle on who is a clone of who is a yes. They are. But not always all three at the same time.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
Also, the problem is not just the number of FE fighters, but that all of them except Lucina are protagonists. This leads to a lot of homogeneity in visual variety even if the move sets have been differentiated across the years.

Fire Emblem is a series that introduces dozens of interesting characters with each entry but the character choices in Smash are predictable and uniform. People wouldn't bitch about Byleth that much if we had gotten any of the House leaders instead.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
Byleth should have had all the other protagonists as B moves like assists, and then a down B to go back in time.
 

lightning16

Member
May 17, 2019
1,763
Its ok that people are punishing Nintendo for choosing marketing over fan wishes. Dont defend them please.
This has consistently been the stupidest reaction people have had to this whole situation. It's fine to not like the character. It's fine to be sick of Fire Emblem characters. It's fine to wish they would've picked one of the other characters in Three Houses over Byleth. It's weird to try to twist it into being on some moral high ground when it's obvious people just don't care about the character picked.

The game should have more recent Nintendo characters, if anything. I wish they actually did use the game to market things like Astral Chain, The Wonderful 101, Tokyo Mirage Sessions, Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Xenoblade Chronicles X/2, and whatever else. There are lots of great characters to pick from those games and we've gotten nothing but a costume and bomb change for Link. They've been absolutely lousy at promoting their recent games in Smash, if anything.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
This has consistently been the stupidest reaction people have had to this whole situation. It's fine to not like the character. It's fine to be sick of Fire Emblem characters. It's fine to wish they would've picked one of the other characters in Three Houses over Byleth. It's weird to try to twist it into being on some moral high ground when it's obvious people just don't care about the character picked.

The game should have more recent Nintendo characters, if anything. I wish they actually did use the game to market things like Astral Chain, The Wonderful 101, Tokyo Mirage Sessions, Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Xenoblade Chronicles X/2, and whatever else. There are lots of great characters to pick from those games and we've gotten nothing but a costume and bomb change for Link. They've been absolutely lousy at promoting their recent games in Smash, if anything.
Mario doesn't really need advertising though. It's Mario. Mario got a number of recent editions since Smash 4. But yes to TW101, Astral Chain, and Xenoblade. Would love characters from those games to make it in.
 

JazzmanZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,384
My understanding is a lot of the complaints are coming from a vocal minority, because otherwise Chrom wouldn't of gotten in as an echo, his inclusion was entirely from the poll they did during Smash 4 that got us Dark Samus too.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,927
Fire Emblem characters are like the Mario stages of the character roster though, that much I get.
 

Zoid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,335
I like all the FE characters and I'm not really a fan of the series. Look at all the Mario characters it's not really a big deal. At this point I can only think of like 1 actual first party character I really want and it would be the Hyrule Warrior's version of Impa. That said I rather get some more third party characters like Sora and Raiden but then people will whine that they have swords too.
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,711
They seem to add a new one for every new game nowadays, and they all have very similar looks.

Someone put it in a nice way before. It would be like if all of the Pokemon reps were Pikachu, Raichu, Pichu, then every "electric rodent" of each new gen. Would they all have the same moveset? No, their movesets would be different from each other. But at the end of the day, people would hate that because all of the Pokemon reps would just be "another electric rodent".

That's where Fire Emblem is at. It's a anime character with blue-ish or white hair (sole exception being Roy), with a cape or cloak, that has a sword somewhere in their moveset. Even with half of them have unique movesets, people are just tired of getting even more Fire Emblem characters that look like they came from the same design template, when more interesting alternatives exist, even in the same series/game.

Byleth being announced was inevitable, but I won't lie and say that the reveal wasn't disappointing. Also doesn't help that characters from XB2 or Arms couldn't get in due to "lack of time", even as DLC, but FE3H had enough time to make the first DLC cut. At least the moveset seems neat enough. That trailer was crap though.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
Someone put it in a nice way before. It would be like if all of the Pokemon reps were Pikachu, Raichu, Pichu, then every "electric rodent" of each new gen. Would they all have the same moveset? No, their movesets would be different from each other. But at the end of the day, people would hate that because all of the Pokemon reps would just be "another electric rodent".

What are you talking about, this is a super diverse and interesting cast of characters!

EOamAUnXUAAPSbq
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,005
What just sours it a little for me is the lack of attention Zelda gets in comparison, and it's almost certainly down to some dumb internal rule that one-off characters shouldn't get a shot. Hell I'd even be fine with the Link clones getting more versatile movesets to better represent their games (Masks for Young Link, Deku Leaf etc. for Toon Link) but nope, just BotW Link got that treatment. It's just bizarre. At least Zelda gets solid stage representation, I guess.

Do all this, and add Urbosa, and we're all good.
 

Sagroth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,838
I'm afraid these arguments aren't enough for me, because...

1. As pointed out in the OP itself, FE has two more characters than the Legend of Zelda series, which outsells it by a huge margin.

2. A sizeable portion of characters I'd personally like to see in Smash are in fact from the Legend of Zelda series, a number of which would allow for more female representation (Midna, Urbosa, Linkle, Impa...)

3. The LoZ series has more potential for fighters who are not sword based (Skull Kid, Midna, Wolf Link, Linkle), or even weapon based, and are (most of them) more iconic than any FE characters.

tldr: I'd agree with most of your arguments if LoZ wasn't literally right there and more deserving by pretty much any metric.


Edit:
I'm fine with all the Fire Emblem love personally, I used to be salty but when they actually do something interesting with the gameplay it's worth it. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all seem pretty unique, and I couldn't really be mad at Chrom considering how relatively easy he must have been to implement.

What just sours it a little for me is the lack of attention Zelda gets in comparison, and it's almost certainly down to some dumb internal rule that one-off characters shouldn't get a shot. Hell I'd even be fine with the Link clones getting more versatile movesets to better represent their games (Masks for Young Link, Deku Leaf etc. for Toon Link) but nope, just BotW Link got that treatment. It's just bizarre. At least Zelda gets solid stage representation, I guess.

My man!
 

Kerwop

Member
Dec 15, 2017
396
I like Fire Emblem and don't really play Smash, but even as an outsider I can see why it frustrates people. It seems really ridiculous that a franchise of modest popularity (compared to some of the other IP in Smash) gets so many characters.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
What are you talking about, this is a super diverse and interesting cast of characters!

EOamAUnXUAAPSbq

It's really unrealistic to act like a starter could be added and not the other two, or a complicated character like a Pokemon trainer using the three starters to fight, or less iconic characters like Jigglypuff or Lucario instead of instantly recognisable Pikachu clones, or a controversial character like Mewtwo who could be seen as a villain instead of Charizard. Plus echoes are much easier to include anyway, so complaints about "too many electric rodents" don't really make sense.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,369
Houston, TX
Celica (as a Robin echo) should have been chosen over Chrom. Awakening didn't need 3 reps and Chrom's popularity had tanked since Smash 4.
Actually, Chrom was chosen specifically because he was a huge fan request (in the Smash Ballot). But personally speaking, I'd prefer Celica.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Has anyone ever looked in any general FE popularity polls to see who's popular? Cause they're almost always the main lord of their specific game with maybe a few side characters sprinkled in. Even the western Fire Emblem poll to get more characters in Fire Emblem Heroes, the top spots for the men of FE are mainly Ike (both versions), Roy, Marth, Chrom, and Robin. For the women of FE, it was Lyn, Lucina, Tharja, Camilla, Corrin, Eirika, Cordelia.

Majority lords and majority sword wielders. Popularity has just as much to do with Smash picks and many of these picks come from the Smash poll with the exception of Byleth, since it's after the Smash polls happened.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
It's really unrealistic to act like a starter could be added and not the other two, or a complicated character like a Pokemon trainer using the three starters to fight, or less iconic characters like Jigglypuff or Lucario instead of instantly recognisable Pikachu clones, or a controversial character like Mewtwo who could be seen as a villain instead of Charizard. Plus echoes are much easier to include anyway, so complaints about "too many electric rodents" don't really make sense.
I mean really they're not even all yellow. Some are yellow, sure, but some are primarily really pale yellow, or just have yellow highlights. Plus one of them is blue! That's like, an opposite of yellow.