The Nation: "It's time to abolish ICE"

Illest1 · Mar 10, 2018

Nesotenso said:
my immigration story is the exact opposite. I want to give back to a place which has given me so much. And I know it is not perfect. For what it's worth, I am not white.

This right here is why ICE needs to go. Not saying you are undocumented btw. Referring to the mindset and spirit of the teens of thousands (millions?) who are undocumented and love this country for what it affords them. These are the kind of people ICE is ripping from their children. People who just want a decent life and cannot have one where they originated from.

Resist ICE.

Digital Dinosaur · Mar 10, 2018

I have to admit it's kind of interesting to watch a future history lesson unfold in real time. File under: ingratiation of fascist agents with the citizenry.

Advance_Alarm · Mar 10, 2018

Deepwater said:
You're asking me for my take on how I would structure immigration policy and I don't have that for you, I'm not an expert in immigration policy or theory so I'm not going to draw arbitrary lines for you to attempt to knock down.

My post was responding to "why do people not like ICE", and part of the reason is that they are pretty consistently shitty in breaking up families with no criminal activity. In fact, the majority of people in immigration detention centers aren't even there for crimes outside of their undocumented status. It's clear that the United States Government with the establishment of DHS changed to a more aggressive enforcement of immigration policy, you can't really deny that. This approach to immigration enforcement has been upheld for the last 16 years over the course of three (and counting) administrations.

I feel like it's really lazy, and boring tbh, to try to litigate the details of immigration policy every time we talk about immigration. The United States would not be able to function without both it's migrant residents, lawful or not. This is empirically true across a number of metrics. People are asking for a more compassionate approach to this issue that doesn't involve kicking people out who have been here decades because "rules are rules"

This is selection what the article in the OP says: "cruelly and wantonly breaking up families", "opaque and racist deportation force", "you should look over your shoulder and you should be worried", 'targeting of politcal opponents", "targeting of aliens who talk to the media about ICE." It also goes towards your point about discussing "why people do not like ICE".

I posted about immigration details and codification which you called "lazy and boring". Wouldn't increased codification redress or eliminate the things listed in the article? If you codify who and who isn't subject to removal you could eliminate the "wanton" removals, "opaque" removals, and "politcial" removals. If the system was clearly codified then it would eliminate "looking over your shoulder" because it would be clear if you were subject to removal or not. In fact, if you wish for "a more compassionate approach" what way would you define that other than through codification and policy proposals?

I would say it is lazy to think that discussing the abolishment of an agency of over 20,000 employees should not include any public policy talk.

ginger ninja · Mar 10, 2018

I also like advocating for things that will never fucking happen, it's a fun game to play you know.

Nesotenso · Mar 10, 2018

Illest1 said:
This right here is why ICE needs to go. Not saying you are undocumented btw. Referring to the mindset and spirit of the teens of thousands (millions?) who are undocumented and love this country for what it affords them. These are the kind of people ICE is ripping from their children. People who just want a decent life and cannot have one where they originated from.

Resist ICE.

I mean what you are talking about has been attempted. Any sort of comprehensive immigration reform has to include one time amnesty for illegals who have already setup roots and familial ties. The republicans hate the idea so it goes nowhere fast.

SlickShoesRUCRazy · Mar 10, 2018

Kilic95 said:
SMFH. How can people still proclaim that this is the "land of the free"?

The people that say that place an asterisk at the end.

Razgriz-Specter · Mar 10, 2018

Normally i'd cut a department like ICE some slack(maybe not that, benefit of the doubt or something) with a tough issue like immigration and especially with the administration they are serving.....

But nope, the stories we are hearing are absolutely horrendous.
screw 'em.

FaceHugger · Mar 10, 2018

Razgriz-Specter said:
Normally i'd cut a department like ICE some slack(maybe not that, benefit of the doubt or something) with a tough issue like immigration and especially with the administration they are serving.....

But nope, the stories we are hearing are absolutely horrendous.
screw 'em.

I mean, do we really need a police-force like group for immigration issues? One with SWAT team like elements and aggressive swarming tactics? It's fucking silly and ripe for abuse, xenophobia, and excess. Just kill it already and make things like they used to be. It was one of my major disappointments with Obama and the brief time the D's held Congress under him. They could have done something. Hell I think they extended their powers.

Deepwater · Mar 10, 2018

Advance_Alarm said:
This is selection what the article in the OP says: "cruelly and wantonly breaking up families", "opaque and racist deportation force", "you should look over your shoulder and you should be worried", 'targeting of politcal opponents", "targeting of aliens who talk to the media about ICE." It also goes towards your point about discussing "why people do not like ICE".

I posted about immigration details and codification which you called "lazy and boring". Wouldn't increased codification redress or eliminate the things listed in the article? If you codify who and who isn't subject to removal you could eliminate the "wanton" removals, "opaque" removals, and "politcial" removals. If the system was clearly codified then it would eliminate "looking over your shoulder" because it would be clear if you were subject to removal or not. In fact, if you wish for "a more compassionate approach" what way would you define that other than through codification and policy proposals?

I would say it is lazy to think that discussing the abolishment of an agency of over 20,000 employees should not include any public policy talk.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any discussion of public policy, I'm saying it's asinine to think that you're going to get informed, expert policy discussion on this particular subject on a video game forum. I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough. That does not mean that I can't recognize that what they're doing right now is not working nor the right approaching. There needs to be a reform of immigration policy in this country, and that would include the role and power of ICE. What exactly that looks like, I don't know.

What is useless is litigating right now "Well at what point is it acceptable for someone to overstay a visa?"

NoRéN · Mar 10, 2018

ishan said:
I'm a possible future us green card holder / (unlikely) citizen .

Abolish ice ? Wtf you want open borders ? Wtf is even going on in this thread

Your terrible understanding of what ICE does makes me hope that possibility does not become reality.

ginger ninja · Mar 10, 2018

Nesotenso said:
my immigration story is the exact opposite. I want to give back to a place which has given me so much. And I know it is not perfect. For what it's worth, I am not white.

This. I am also a non white immigrant and everything I have today I owe to this country. That's not to say everything is perfect, federal government and it's agencies have now actually adopted a policy of xenophobia and racism. But I take solace in knowing that the majority of the citizens of this country don't agree with the policies and hopefully eventually we all take back the ship and start the work back towards making it a more 'perfect union' as my POTUS used to say.

Also if even Obama isn't good and saintly enough for you, then idk what to tell you. Hope you're happy with the fasict upgrade currently in office.

Deleted member 3345 · Mar 10, 2018

FaceHugger said:
I mean, do we really need a police-force like group for immigration issues? One with SWAT team like elements and aggressive swarming tactics? It's fucking silly and ripe for abuse, xenophobia, and excess. Just kill it already and make things like they used to be. It was one of my major disappointments with Obama and the brief time the D's held Congress under him. They could have done something. Hell I think they extended their powers.

It's amazing, apparently in two years Obama and dems should have done everything at once simultaneously.

The formation of ICE came as a directive from congress, and must be dissolved as such.

Razgriz-Specter · Mar 10, 2018

FaceHugger said:
I mean, do we really need a police-force like group for immigration issues? One with SWAT team like elements and aggressive swarming tactics? It's fucking silly and ripe for abuse, xenophobia, and excess. Just kill it already and make things like they used to be.

That plays into the 2nd part of what I meant.
Im with you.

JayC3 · Mar 10, 2018

This kind of reminds me of the United States Trade Representative (ustr.gov). They're in charge of negotiating trade deals on behalf of the United States. But, because their raison d'etre is to negotiate trade deals, they'll continue to do so even when there may be no need for any more trade deals to be negotiated. So we end up with way more many trade deals than we need.

In the same way, ICE will work to deport people simply because that's what it was designed to do. I don't see any issue with having it absorbed back into Homeland Security. Then, maybe those resources can be directed towards more useful activities than just going around and breaking up families. We'll still have immigration enforcement when necessary, but it won't be just for its own sake.

Deleted member 3345 · Mar 10, 2018

JayC3 said:
This kind of reminds me of the United States Trade Representative (ustr.gov). They're in charge of negotiating trade deals on behalf of the United States. But, because their raison d'etre is to negotiate trade deals, they'll continue to do so even when there may be no need for any more trade deals to be negotiated. So we end up with way more many trade deals than we need.

In the same way, ICE will work to deport people simply because that's what it was designed to do. I don't see any issue with having it absorbed back into Homeland Security. Then, maybe those resources can be directed towards more useful activities than just going around and breaking up families. We'll still have immigration enforcement when necessary, but it won't be just for its own sake.

ICE is the enforcement and investigative arm of DHS. How would it be absorbed back into it?

JayC3 · Mar 10, 2018

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:
ICE is the enforcement and investigative arm of DHS. How would it be absorbed back into it?

Get rid of the ICE director and let someone at Homeland Security redeploy the resources to non-immigration enforcement activities if they deem it desirable and appropriate.

Edit: we seem to have a big problem with white nationalists murdering people recently. We've had a bigger issue with white terrorists than, let's say, Muslim terrorists. Since DHS is in charge of dealing with terrorism, maybe they could deploy ICE resources to work on white nationalism issues instead?

FaceHugger · Mar 10, 2018

Razgriz-Specter said:
That plays into the 2nd part of what I meant.
Im with you.

Oh I was agreeing with you but just building on what you wrote. I should have been more clear.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:
It's amazing, apparently in two years Obama and dems should have done everything at once simultaneously.

The formation of ICE came as a directive from congress, and must be dissolved as such.

Yes, two years was plenty of time to address numerous problems that formed in the Bush and GOP Congress years before it. When we have four year terms and limited sessions hell yes. Expect more of your government, not less, I say.

ishan · Mar 10, 2018

ginger ninja said:
This. I am also a non white immigrant and everything I have today I owe to this country. That's not to say everything is perfect, federal government and it's agencies have now actually adopted a policy of xenophobia and racism. But I take solace in knowing that the majority of the citizens of this country don't agree with the policies and hopefully eventually we all take back the ship and start the work back towards making it a more 'perfect union' as my POTUS used to say.

Also if even Obama isn't good and saintly enough for you, then idk what to tell you. Hope you're happy with the fasict upgrade currently in office.

right so agree . obama is an imperialistic asshole according to some tho. i literally have no words left to argue with on those.

ishan · Mar 10, 2018

NoRéN said:
Your terrible understanding of what ICE does makes me hope that possibility does not become reality.

my debate on it makes me hope ppl like me who arent willing to block out other views and be a resoanable person makes me hope i become one. But youre entitled to your view its a free world

Pein · Mar 10, 2018

Nah, I'm not with the whole let's be alright with people who jump borders and everything is alright than and after.

fauxtrot · Mar 10, 2018

Fuck ICE and fuck the folks licking their boots in this thread. Disgusting.

Killthee · Mar 10, 2018

Kmonk said:
Just heard on the radio that woman in my city was snatched off the street by ICE, in front of her three daughters. It's profoundly disturbing.

Video of it:

Shit is fucked up.

acheron_xl · Mar 10, 2018

fauxtrot said:
Fuck ICE and fuck the folks licking their boots in this thread. Disgusting.

Yep. And considering how many neo-Nazis made a concerted effort to infiltrate law enforcement, I can only imagine how many have infested ICE.

Deleted member 6223 · Mar 10, 2018

There's a special place in hell for Homan's racist ass. Fuck ICE.

Killthee said:
Video of it:

Shit is fucked up.

Ugh, makes me sick to my stomach. That poor family. :(

sleepInsom · Mar 10, 2018

geomon said:
The modern day brown shirts.

Yep, they're modern gestapo.

TheIlliterati · Mar 10, 2018

It'd be great if it could be abolished, but it won't be. "It's time"? Uh, actually, it's about the worst time ever to propose something like this that has less than zero chance of happening under this current climate.

CarsomyrPlusSix · Mar 10, 2018

I've read the article. The only reason it can cite for why this immigration enforcement agency should be abolished is because it actually enforces immigration and removes people who have broken those laws from our country.

acheron_xl · Mar 10, 2018

TheIlliterati said:
It'd be great if it could be abolished, but it won't be. "It's time"? Uh, actually, it's about the worst time ever to propose something like this that has less than zero chance of happening under this current climate.

That's why it has to be demanded in the here and now. You can never move the Overton Window if your opening gambit is to say that now isn't the time.

Torres · Mar 10, 2018

Just as a reminder, ICE was awful under Obama too!

Gordon Shumway · Mar 10, 2018

Torres said:
Just as a reminder, ICE was awful under Obama too!

Ok?

Gaia Lanzer · Mar 10, 2018

BlackLagoon said:
...yes, because what we want is for Trump and Sessions to do a major reorganization of law enforcement. The result would be utterly utopian, I'm sure.

By Trump and Sessions? No.

But by a Democratic successor? YES! No more of this Gestapo bullshit they are aiming for right now. Though, if you ask me, the entire police force needs a culling and reorganization. New methods of training, stricter punishment for officers that violate human rights, no more letting unions sweep things under the rug through corruption. Shit like this, I always refer to as "Project: Clean House".

RedMercury · Mar 10, 2018

WingStop Addiction said:
Because they serve an important purpose in dealing with criminals. Try researching more than what the mainstream media will dare to report on.

Of course their job is never done though and which is why I have to keep my doors locked and my beretta loaded and on my person (CCW permit of course) due to the city I live in.

Oh, interesting. Thanks for elaborating.
So what would you say about their just as if not more frequently reported on abuses of power? What specific sources are you getting information from when you decry what the "mainstream media" is reporting?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-crime-is-still-wrong/?utm_term=.f3bd590356e7

https://reason.com/archives/2018/02/01/immigrants-and-crime

https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-myths-crime-number-illegal-immigrants

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html

Knowing that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than a natural born citizen does this allay your fear of immigrant crime that causes you to carry a firearm?

Gordon Shumway said:
Ok?

Things that make you go hmmm for $500, Gordon!

Virtua · Mar 10, 2018

There is no such thing as a 'lawful undocumented immigrant' and I think the people who took the time and went through the immigration process the proper way would be offended by such a notion.

Are a lot of these people here because of the apathy of the previous administration about illegal immigration, and figured they would never get caught as long as they never committed a crime?

If people are truly lawful and have good intentions they should be here but with the enforcement being what it is in 2018 why not go through the official channels?

Klotera · Mar 10, 2018

ICE has gotten so bad that they not only go after undocumented immigrants, but actively try strip citizenship from naturalized citizens, so they can then deport them:

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/ice-denaturalization-naturalized-citizen-immigration/

Kinda scary to think about, as a naturalized citizen myself.

Deleted member 25445 · Mar 10, 2018

Virtua said:
There is no such thing as a 'lawful undocumented immigrant' and I think the people who took the time and went through the immigration process the proper way would be offended by such a notion.

Are a lot of these people here because of the apathy of the previous administration about illegal immigration, and figured they would never get caught as long as they never committed a crime?

If people are truly lawful and have good intentions they should be here but with the enforcement being what it is in 2018 why not go through the official channels?

As an illegal immigrant in America who has a successful career working in a top 25 company, what official channels are you talking about?

Virtua · Mar 10, 2018

mrtastee said:
As an illegal immigrant in America who has a successful career working in a top 25 company, what official channels are you talking about?

My brother in law and his parents and siblings are all here legally and went through official channels. They are not extraordinarily wealthy or special access. I don't know about it in depth but it seemed like it took some time for all of them but wasn't impossible.

Deleted member 25445 · Mar 10, 2018

Virtua said:
My brother in law and his parents and siblings are all here legally and went through official channels. They are not extraordinarily wealthy or special access. I don't know about it in depth but it seemed like it took some time for all of them but wasn't impossible.

I don't have the luxury of leaving the country and waiting 10 years. That is my official channel. I'm an American despite anything and I'm a lawful undocumented immigrant.

Landawng · Mar 10, 2018

ICE are a bunch of fucking pussies. Saw a vid yesterday of them deporting a mother in public in front of three of her daughters. Motherfuckers. Burn it to the ground

Tesseract · Mar 10, 2018

if you can make it here, you should stay here

we're getting really good at border control, we don't need to go after people who have settled

Lat · Mar 10, 2018

norealmx said:
That doesn't means Joe Six Pack can "lobby" his way in.

These fuckers will demand your papers if you look the least shade of brown.

I'm as brown as they come and I've never been demanded my "papers"

kradical · Mar 10, 2018

Opto said:
You know the Hague is a prison right?

PixelatedProphet said:
Yes i know the Hague is a prison i had a brain fart.

The Hague is not a prison. It's a city in the Netherlands where the International Criminal Court is based.

CatAssTrophy · Mar 10, 2018

Lat said:
I'm as brown as they come and I've never been demanded my "papers"

Knock on wood?

Lat · Mar 10, 2018

CatAssTrophy said:
Knock on wood?

I'm a citizen so I dunno?

Baji Boxer · Mar 10, 2018

Virtua said:
There is no such thing as a 'lawful undocumented immigrant' and I think the people who took the time and went through the immigration process the proper way would be offended by such a notion.

Are a lot of these people here because of the apathy of the previous administration about illegal immigration, and figured they would never get caught as long as they never committed a crime?

If people are truly lawful and have good intentions they should be here but with the enforcement being what it is in 2018 why not go through the official channels?

Sure there is, that's what the whole controvery of the "Dreamers" is centered around. Babies can't commit crimes, and when raised here it's inhumane treatment to send them back to their birth country.

Your comment about the apathy of the previous administration isn't true at all, either. If you want to read up on President Obama's actions on illegal imigration, you can read this: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/obama-record-deportations-deporter-chief-or-not

Deleted member 3345 · Mar 10, 2018

Virtua said:
There is no such thing as a 'lawful undocumented immigrant' and I think the people who took the time and went through the immigration process the proper way would be offended by such a notion.

Are a lot of these people here because of the apathy of the previous administration about illegal immigration, and figured they would never get caught as long as they never committed a crime?

If people are truly lawful and have good intentions they should be here but with the enforcement being what it is in 2018 why not go through the official channels?

You realize some of the people getting ropped by ICE that are 30/40 years old, have no legal pathway, and have been in the states for 20-30 years, right?

SegFault · Mar 10, 2018

PixelatedProphet said:
Nice hot take advocating to lock up Law Enforcement Officers for following the law.

"just following orders" isn't a legitimate excuse for crimes against humanity bruv.

bdbdbd · Mar 10, 2018

Yeah, I've about had it with immigration being treated like it's somehow not a fundamental source of this country's success and that illegal or undocumented immigrants who are largely well-meaning just looking for better lives are like some kind of imminent terrorist threat.

Virtua said:
There is no such thing as a 'lawful undocumented immigrant' and I think the people who took the time and went through the immigration process the proper way would be offended by such a notion.

If the immigration process were simple and straightforward for everyone, don't you think most who want to immigrate into the country would use it? Do you really think the vast majority just *want* to be tagged as illegal or undocumented?

Deleted member 29676 · Mar 10, 2018

JayC3 said:
Get rid of the ICE director and let someone at Homeland Security redeploy the resources to non-immigration enforcement activities if they deem it desirable and appropriate.

Edit: we seem to have a big problem with white nationalists murdering people recently. We've had a bigger issue with white terrorists than, let's say, Muslim terrorists. Since DHS is in charge of dealing with terrorism, maybe they could deploy ICE resources to work on white nationalism issues instead?

Head of DHS reports to the president and will have to enforce and deploy resources to what he/she says to. Congress can remove funding for immigration enforcement but if you have consensus for that you probably have consensus to change the crappy laws they are enforcing.

Leithkorias · Mar 10, 2018

...kill it with fire?

Gwenpoolshark · Mar 10, 2018

Klotera said:
ICE has gotten so bad that they not only go after undocumented immigrants, but actively try strip citizenship from naturalized citizens, so they can then deport them:

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/ice-denaturalization-naturalized-citizen-immigration/

Kinda scary to think about, as a naturalized citizen myself.

This is disgusting and so counter to the self-professed ideals of America. ICE are an American Gestapo. End them now.

The Nation: "It's time to abolish ICE"

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