The mental health of this community [Read Staff Post Before Posting]

StrangeRoboMemory · Feb 27, 2020

Uncivilized Elk said:
I never said it would be. I'm merely asking you to put yourself into the mental state of somebody who's thread was immediately deleted with an auto-generated response telling them to call the hotline after they had already done so.

I'm curious if you've ever called a suicide hotline. I'm glad they exist and at all, but I'd personally never describe services they offer as anything remotely close to professional help (which would be a licensed therapist). It's pretty much just a person responding to you from a script. And a select few of the posts I've read in the suicide threads - well I wish the people on the other line could have said something like that the times I did make a call.

No, I've never called these lines because I've never had these thoughts or issues. I was trained as a crisis counselor - not for suicide, but for general "light therapy" - and it is very much a script at times, I agree. One of the main techniques is just repeating what the person has told you back to them, as a method of validation. It never really sat well with me. I agree with you that professional services aren't the end-all-be-all. I do think, however, that people who are untrained will be even worse, even if they have good intentions. I'm not saying locking the threads is the answer for sure.

Deleted member 11413 · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
People post extremely personal stuff in the Mental Health thread and I can imagine it's not an absolute positive to consider having those details pinned atop the forum - and whether having it as such may make people err before posting. Having an information post detailing links to hotlines and also resources like the MH community seems like a better sticky (as suggested).

Yeah this is a very good point.

Lothar · Feb 27, 2020

Greg NYC3 said:
It really feels like some posters, especially early on in the thread, are getting the wrong message from the frequency of suicide threads on this forum. In my opinion it's not because the forum is "depressing/nihilistic" but because the forum has tried to be open about discussing mental health issues and suicidal members feel safe coming here for help.

Both can be true. But I believe it's the former, more than the latter, I just don't think they're actually posting to receive help. And this forum is depressing/nihilistic, I don't see how anyone can disagree, so that can't be helping. I'm glad we're talking about it.

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
I can't really stress enough how reckless this for a multitude of reasons

You are creating expectations for people who make these threads, and setting a horribly dangerous situation up if those expectations aren't met.

What expectations are being created? it seems much more harmful to lock a thread that is a cry for help than it is to let it stay open because by locking it that can feel extremely dismissive.

most people who have resources or friends they can reach out to DONT post on forums. So think about why someone is posting on Era about it = they don't have anyone.

and yes. Some of us just want to talk it out.

Idde · Feb 27, 2020

Don't really know how to go about this, but just something I wanna say to the mod-team. Please take really good care of the staff that handles this, because I can imagine it taking quite a toll on their own mental health. Especially if its on top of dealing with all the other stuff and sensitivities that comes with moderating Era.

ParanormalFupa · Feb 27, 2020

Solaris said:
I really wish the users of this forum wouldn't rely on it so much for news and opinions.

There's a lot of fear-mongering and absurd hyperbole, to the point where it seriously appears as if some users are detached from how society functions and how the general population feels about various subjects.

I still enjoy reading the forum, but it's hard to stay here long because negativity is off the charts. If you embed yourself here, spend hours of your day absorbing all of the negative hyperbole in the off-topic area then it surely can't be good for you if you're already vulnerable.

Yeah especially the countless threads that are just a re-posting of a negative news story or negative hot take from social media with absolutely no editorial from the OP or any sort of direction for where they want the discussion to go other than them simply re-posting a thing we all know already sucks and they just want to hear everybody else say it sucks while being at the ready to jump at anyone who isn't fully participating in the suck-fest. It's really just pure, unironic, and at times very aggressive signal boosting of negative pollution that makes me wanted to ignore the majority of threads.

BAD · Feb 27, 2020

Hobbes said:
What expectations are being created? it seems much more harmful to lock a thread that is a cry for help than it is to let it stay open because by locking it that can feel extremely dismissive.

most people who have resources or friends they can reach out to DONT post on forums. So think about why someone is posting on Era about it = they don't have anyone.

and yes. Some of us just want to talk it out.

If everyone knows these threads will equally lead to being pointed toward more equipped and professional help, that is infinitely better than leaving them afloat with random untrained public posts and varying number of responses that measure their worth - all while many in this thread have said it feels really unhealthy for their own vulnerable minds to see so much suicidal content when they are trying to stay afloat.

Skade · Feb 27, 2020

I've noticed this yes. But i don't think it's an issue with Era.

I'd say that we see this more on Era (honestly, i don't think i've ever seen this happen anywhere else) because people feel more "at ease" of approaching the subject here maybe ? Most of the places i've been on the internet, anyone talking about suicide or depression would be immediately stockpiled by assholes telling them to kill themselves. It's not the case here (at least not that i have noticed) so i guess people feel that they can share.

If anything, it might even be a "good" thing that we see those threads. As weird as it sounds. Sure, nobody want to see that someone they might know, even barely, is thinking about suicide, but at least, when we know of it, we might try to help the person and avoid them actually doing it. While on other less welcoming boards, the person would just "do it" without telling anybody, never to be seen on the board again.

So yeah. I never know what to say in those threads when i see them popping up but i don't really them them as a "problem" for Era. It's a problem that those people feel that way, of course. But i don't see Era having anything to do with it.

I also might be completely wrong, i don't know.

Deleted member 10629 · Feb 27, 2020

nsilvias said:
this site has some redeeming features compared to other sites so it'd be nice to not have to throw away the whole thing.

I'm not saying to quit completely, just moderate the time you spend here.

Arkanim94 · Feb 27, 2020

imo incentivizing positive threads would help a lot.
I don't want etcetera to become a "stepford smiler" kind of place like r/upliftingnews or something, but the feedback loop of depressive news and really no chill place outside of dedicated OT is imo a big problem.

the moderation has been way to harsh toward banning silly thread in etcetera in my opinion tbh.

Deleted member 8561 · Feb 27, 2020

Hobbes said:
What expectations are being created? it seems much more harmful to lock a thread that is a cry for help than it is to let it stay open because by locking it that can feel extremely dismissive.

most people who have resources or friends they can reach out to DONT post on forums. So think about why someone is posting on Era about it = they don't have anyone.

and yes. Some of us just want to talk it out.

Well, it's pretty easy to see the expectations Woods is creating for threads that you and others are calling cries for help, and the implications that if most of them get people posting and offering support the consequences if a thread doesn't receive similar support from the community, which is the argument for keeping them open.

I'll just reiterate again, if ERA is somehow capable of dealing with these situations, then someone trained in these situations are sure as shit able to handle it without the major potential issues of having these types of threads stay open and having people expose the OP's to potentially harmful things or unintentionally saying the wrong thing.

Again, there is a vast difference between making a suicide thread and displaying issues with isolation, loneliness, hopelessness, to quote myself from another post;

Making a suicide thread is not "needing to talk". If you walk into a therapist office and say the things people write in OT in their suicide threads, I'm pretty sure there is a higher chance of dealing with a crisis center than just going on with a normal therapy session.

People are obfuscating threads where people are down, lonely, filled with anxiety, to threads where someone makes a sentence or two and outright declares "I'm done with everything I think I'm going to kill myself tonight"

HardTimesFamilyPride · Feb 27, 2020

Famassu said:
I mean, like, 99% of the posts I see in those threads are "please don't do it, it's a permanent, unreversable solution to a temporary problem", "please call to a local suicide hotline, they are equipped to help you, here's a number/link to where you can find numbers worldwide" & "you seem to live near me, if you're lonely, maybe I can come hang out with you" or even "you're out of money? I can come buy you some food and hang out" type stuff that are aimed to help the suicidal person not go through with it right away in fairly sensible, concrete ways while not going too armchair therapist on them or ignoring the need to get them professional help. There might be a couple of "I feel like this too" posts but by far the vast majority of responses are generally "don't do it, please get help, call this number".

Yeah some of the comments in here don't make sense based on the threads I've seen. Definitely a discussion to he had regarding how mods should handle these threads but this discussion is pretty mired atm

Deleted member 5086 · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
And what do they think of letting people who are potentially suicidal have exposure to an unvetted field of posters who have the ability to say literally anything and have that person in crisis read it?

I think you're really discounting the potential damage from locking a thread where someone is crying out for help. For one, people with depression often feel like they are a burden to others, and feel too guilty to even reach out for help. That, and that any help is pointless, because things could not possibly get better. Immediately locking these threads can come across as dismissive and isolating, which is he last thing we want to do.

I also feel that you're also ignoring the fact that many posts in these threads are specifically urging the OP to seek professional help (or explaining how therapy has helped them), and are merely offering emotional support, not therapy. The idea that locking the thread with a boilerplate message is less damaging to the mental state of a suicidal person than allowing people to express words of comfort and support is something I'm struggling to comprehend. And I say that as someone who has struggled with similar thoughts and feelings as these members. The last thing you want to make someone in this state of mind feel is that they're alone, or a burden to others. Which is the message that instantly locking these threads can send.

I understand where the concern is coming from, as there are potential negative consequences no matter what you do. I'm also the type of person who find these threads difficult to read at times, depending on my own mental health, and that informs how much I am able to monitor them myself, or whether I ask other staff members to take over. So I understand that it can be tough to see these threads. But we have to balance everyone's needs, and that includes people who are in need of urgent support. Speaking from personal experience, I often feel too guilty to even talk to close friends and loved ones about my own struggles, since that above mentioned feeling of being a 'burden' pops up. But I'm fortunate to have some kind of support group, and it's thanks to this peer support that I was able to seek professional help, which greatly accelerated my own healing process. This is what peer support does. When someone is in that dark state of mind, even getting professional help can seem pointless. Some people are also incapable of seeking professional help at all based on their circumstances. Engaging with and encouraging members can keep them going until they can get the support that they need.

I will also add that if any member sees an unhelpful or insensitive comment in such a thread, please report it. We will at the very least remove the post.

Grimsey · Feb 27, 2020

The Woods said:
Official Staff Communication

Let's try this again. As stated before, hijacking this thread to complain about the strictness of moderation or cancel culture will not be tolerated. More broadly, this is a very serious discussion that warrants sensitivity, empathy and a responsible approach. You have no compulsion to post if you don't care about the subject. The team will be reading the thread and discussing suggestions that come up, as well as responding to constructive feedback. We want the forum culture and community to improve, just as much as you all. But insensitive, dismissive and inflammatory posts will be subject to moderation.

This seems like a good moment to clarify the steps we take for 'cry for help' threads, as well as the Mental Health community as a whole. When we are alerted to a member making a post or thread that suggests depressive or suicidal thoughts, we try to give them an alert/notice with resources that they can use in their country. Whether that's telephone helplines, or websites. This is accompanied with a supportive message. This message can only be disabled on our end, until we're sure the user is safe or feeling better. We also have a staff member reach out via PM, and give them further resources such as the Mental Health OT, and an invite to the Mental Health discord. In extreme cases where we believe a member is in danger, we take further steps as we are able to.

We have had two meetings with the Mental Health community, and also have two staff members involved in running the MH Discord. As a result of those meetings, the MH OT has been moved to the main Etcetera section for visibility. The thread would not be stickied without involvement and discussion with that community. What we are currently discussing as a result of the feedback in this thread, however, is a pinned thread with resources (including the MH OT). This is a topic that we take very seriously, and have expended a lot of effort on. This is a personal and important subject for us as well. We appreciate the constructive feedback that has been given so far, and promise to take it into consideration.

The thread will be opened momentarily.

I personally think this is an appropriate policy, especially the part about being open to constructive feedback. A big thank you to the mod team for taking this seriously.

AcidCat · Feb 27, 2020

Solaris said:
There's a lot of fear-mongering and absurd hyperbole, to the point where it seriously appears as if some users are detached from how society functions and how the general population feels about various subjects.

Unfortunately this is very true.

ParanormalFupa said:
Yeah especially the countless threads that are just a re-posting of a negative news story or negative hot take from social media with absolutely no editorial from the OP or any sort of direction for where they want the discussion to go other than them simply re-posting a thing we all know already sucks and they just want to hear everybody else say it sucks while being at the ready to jump at anyone who isn't fully participating in the suck-fest. It's really just pure, unironic, and at times very aggressive signal boosting of negative pollution that makes me wanted to ignore the majority of threads.

Ugh, yeah, this x100.

Famassu · Feb 27, 2020

Xando said:
Again as i said this might go well 99% of the time but there is that one person that is the 1% and i don't think the staff or the individual era user should be responsible for the well being of someone who needs professional help.

How do you think users or staff will feel if one falls through the cracks and commits suicide after people posted in a thread by triggering a reaction on accident?

We aren't equipped for it and it is irresponsible to put people in a position where they could be directly involved in a suicide.

I really do not understand your argument. Just because we aren't "equipped" for more professional help doesn't mean we can't do anything positive to help. A cold info dump with a number to call, a lock of the thread,and no further communication is far worse. If your friend send you a text message where they said they were going to kill themselves, would you just send a number to call and block all further communication? Sometimes someone needs a bit of positive attention and encouragement before they decide to call help.

Just because someone might go through with it despite us pushing them to get help and not to do it doesn't mean we should just ignore pleas for help. I'd say if we can offer a bit of help for 99 people out of a 100, that's pretty damn good vs helping 0 out of 100.

AliceAmber · Feb 27, 2020

Idde said:
Don't really know how to go about this, but just something I wanna say to the mod-team. Please take really good care of the staff that handles this, because I can imagine it taking quite a toll on their own mental health. Especially if its on top of dealing with all the other stuff and sensitivities that comes with moderating Era.

Thank you for the kind words. We all try our best to make sure we take care of ourselves.

Camjo-Z · Feb 27, 2020

I've noticed this as well and I'm not a fan of the "leave them open and let members take care of it" approach. Forces everyone to see them repeatedly unless they actively go into the threads to ignore them, sets up expectations that you'll get lots of supportive messages if you make one (better hope you don't get suicidal during a Direct), generously assumes no throwaway troll accounts will show up to say something awful.

Have a mod give them the resources they need and lock the thread. It's the safest and fairest approach. Maybe even set up a system where people can opt-in to get a notification telling them to send some positive DMs to the person in need afterwards.

Greg NYC3 · Feb 27, 2020

Lothar said:
Both can be true. But I believe it's the former, more than the latter, I just don't think they're actually posting to receive help. And this forum is depressing/nihilistic, I don't see how anyone can disagree, so that can't be helping. I'm glad we're talking about it.

If you're a person that's highly invested in the ideals of social justice and the environment then these may not seem like the best of times and that's reflected in the tone of a lot of the threads in the OT. I never spent time surfing the darker areas of the internet during the Obama years but it's possible that those places were nihilistic then too. This is still a very western focused forum so if the political climate here improves after the 2020 elections I think that everyone will notice less negativity on ResetEra and elsewhere. It is always good to talk about this stuff though and I know that I do my part in trying to bring as much comedy to some of the darker discussions here as is tasteful.

Bigwombat · Feb 27, 2020

I've been thinking about this topic for several weeks so I'm glad the thread was created. I was only on gaf for 3 months before era was created and besides era and reddit I don't go to a large number of online communities.

But I have noticed an alarming number of suicide threads here. I'm always glad people are supportive and having read the staff posts and what several moderators wrote I'm encouraged.

I'm not a mental health expert but at least most people are supportive here. Don't know what we could all do besides what has been mentioned already. Don't think locking the threads would help.

It's crazy the wait times for mental health doctors and therapists though. Addiction centers are overwhelmed too at least in Massachusetts. It's really hard to get to see people and you have to be persistent. My wife started an anti anxiety medication and she had to hound our primary care provider to send the paperwork. If she wasnt so determined she easily could have just dropped it. This is what scares me the most about mental health issues in the US.

Deleted member 11413 · Feb 27, 2020

Mist said:
I think you're really discounting the potential damage from locking a thread where someone is crying out for help. For one, people with depression often feel like they are a burden to others, and feel too guilty to even reach out for help. That, and that any help is pointless, because things could not possibly get better. Immediately locking these threads can come across as dismissive and isolating, which is he last thing we want to do.

I also feel that you're also ignoring the fact that many posts in these threads are specifically urging the OP to seek professional help (or explaining how therapy has helped them), and are merely offering emotional support, not therapy. The idea that locking the thread with a boilerplate message is less damaging to the mental state of a suicidal person than allowing people to express words of comfort and support is something I'm struggling to comprehend. And I say that as someone who has struggled with similar thoughts and feelings as these members. The last thing you want to make someone in this state of mind feel is that they're alone, or a burden to others. Which is the message that instantly locking these threads can send.

I understand where the concern is coming from, as there are potential negative consequences no matter what you do. I'm also the type of person who find these threads difficult to read at times, depending on my own mental health, and that informs how much I am able to monitor them myself, or whether I ask other staff members to take over. So I understand that it can be tough to see these threads. But we have to balance everyone's needs, and that includes people who are in need of urgent support. Speaking from personal experience, I often feel too guilty to even talk to close friends and loved ones about my own struggles, since that above mentioned feeling of being a 'burden' pops up. But I'm fortunate to have some kind of support group, and it's thanks to this peer support that I was able to seek professional help, which greatly accelerated my own healing process. This is what peer support does. When someone is in that dark state of mind, even getting professional can seem pointless. Some people are also incapable of seeking professional help at all based on their circumstances. Engaging with and encouraging members can keep them going until they can get the support that they need.

I will also add that if any member sees an unhelpful or insensitive comment in such a thread, please report it. We will at the very least remove the post.

Thank you, this is the point I was trying to make.

Musubi · Feb 27, 2020

StrangeRoboMemory said:
If a professional wasn't able to help, do you think that untrained random posters will actually be a healthy alternative? Not attacking you and I understand your heart is in the right place, but I don't think this forum or its posters are remotely equipped for this.

I think people who are depressed want people to fucking LISTEN TO THEM. Not just "hear them" LISTEN.

Quite honestly the people who come in here and just post the suicide hotline number and dash off should just not bother posting. Like I'm sorry but so many people in these threads just play into some really canned responses when what people actually want and need is to just feel heard and loved and appreciated.

Like I'm sorry but If I'm about to end myself people coming in and being like "Call this number bro" or "don't do it" isnt' going to sway me because that shit is so easy to post and say. People want their pain to be heard. And I have seen plenty of people in these threads engaging with the OP's of these threads in meaningful ways. And I don't mean this to be directed specifically at you its just like a frustration I've had when seeing how these threads play out.

Spookie · Feb 27, 2020

ParanormalFupa said:
Yeah especially the countless threads that are just a re-posting of a negative news story or negative hot take from social media with absolutely no editorial from the OP or any sort of direction for where they want the discussion to go other than them simply re-posting a thing we all know already sucks and they just want to hear everybody else say it sucks while being at the ready to jump at anyone who isn't fully participating in the suck-fest. It's really just pure, unironic, and at times very aggressive signal boosting of negative pollution that makes me wanted to ignore the majority of threads.

This, to me, is in essence what OT is. This festering negativity breeds further negativity. I can go to work in a good mood, browse OT and by the end of it come away feeling like I need to watch In The Night Garden to lighten the mood.

Gush · Feb 27, 2020

I won't pretend I know what the best course of action is, but I'm very hesitant to believe that sending a hotline number, locking a thread and washing our hands of it is the best one.

As someone who has struggled extensively with mental health issues including depression and suicide ideation in the past, I think a move like that would only further isolate and alienate people who are in a very vulnerable position to begin with. I also have doubts (from personal experience) that someone would suddenly be more likely to reach out to a hotline or crisis center if the thread was locked. While it's important to link and disclose all possible resources, it's also naive to think something like this is best handled by giving them some info and then effectively dismissing them.

Open discourse about sensitive subject matter can mean a lot to people, and finding a safe place to do that where you're comfortable is very difficult. I understand the toll it can have on others seeing threads about suicide and so forth prominently displayed (and I admit I don't have the solution here), but I really don't want to leave someone out in the cold if this is potentially their last refuge.

BAD said:
If everyone knows these threads will equally lead to being pointed toward more equipped and professional help, that is infinitely better than leaving them afloat with random untrained public posts and varying number of responses that measure their worth - all while many in this thread have said it feels really unhealthy for their own vulnerable minds to see so much suicidal content when they are trying to stay afloat.

I guess my concern here is that when I needed help I knew full well about hotlines, crisis centers and all that and I never considered using them. I have to imagine many, many people who experience suicide ideation don't bother and will never bother with a hotline. While, again, it's important to give resources quickly and promptly, I have to assume most people aren't looking for a hotline number they likely already have access to and it's unlikely that they'll take that advice to heart in a situation where it's the first and last response to their attempt to reach out to their community before the door closes.

I just wanna state again that I don't think I'm an authority and I don't think I'm some expert either. I just worry that some people have this idealized notion that their resources are going to be the end all be all solution without looking deeper into context. Just as important as resources themselves is being able to get someone to warm up to the idea of utilizing them in the first place.

Nothing Loud · Feb 27, 2020

Not sure if the mental health OT has this but someone (I might even be willing to) should probably make some kind of guide on how to get yourself mental health resources and support. Most suicidal people here seem to lack knowledge or resources on how to build their own care and support network, so they turn here out of desperation. I can only bring a US-centric perspective, but there are a lot of options and resources from psychiatry to psychotherapy, from weekly group meet ups to 1:1 counseling, from low cost options to higher specialized professionals. There's also books and techniques I can recommend for anxiety and depression, like the DBT workbook by famed psychologist Marsha Linehan. There are so many resources to try before ending your life (which is never the answer) and it feels like most suicidal posters here are low on resources or coping and self-soothing strategies, which can be learned. A lot of posters also seem to need meds, and either don't have it or don't think their current meds are working. This is fairly common but it is something that needs to be persevered and addressed promptly. I'm personally on 5 meds for PTSD, anxiety, and depression. If I wasn't, I'd be making suicide threads here too. A guide on how to navigate all this could be referenced and be linked to in all suicide threads. Just an idea. The suicidal posters might make it through the night after we console them, but what happens after that? To solve the problem, they need to engage in the best resources they can afford. Living is a priority. Depression is so highly treatable, it makes sense to prioritize treating it so you can be happy.

Uncivilized Elk · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
Making a suicide thread is not "needing to talk". If you walk into a therapist office and say the things people write in OT in their suicide threads, I'm pretty sure there is a higher chance of dealing with a crisis center than just going on with a normal therapy session.

Which is why some people never even talk honestly about it and end up killing themselves. Because they fear being detained against their will and imprisoned at a facility for voicing what's going through their head.

Pretendo Switch · Feb 27, 2020

I've also noticed this in the past few weeks. It breaks my heart to see people in such a bad spot mentally. Good on all of those involved with making Era a place where people can turn to during bad times.

Stone Cold · Feb 27, 2020

I think it's really sad that some of you want there to be a separate thread where people who need help should post all their problems, away from you. It isnt enough for you to just ignore entering those threads, you don't even want to see them. I for one am glad that people care about this community enough and feel a part of it enough to where they post here when at their lowest and we can collectively let them know that they are loved and it will be alright. In the other thread people were offering up their cell numbers so the OP could call them and have someone to talk to, why in the bloody fucking hell would you want to limit that? That's beautiful and frankly very rare in the grand scope of the web as a whole. Love you guys and gals.

Ashlette · Feb 27, 2020

Calamari41 said:
This is how I feel as well. OT political/social topics especially are like a glass dome full of people spraying fear and panic pheromones all over each other. Even many pop culture OT threads and threads on the Gaming side are full of people panicking at news about this or that game, and how it is so awful and the franchise is ruined and anyone who disagrees is horrible and on and on.

I don't know how every topic being catastrophized can be mitigated, but it has certainly caused me to become significantly detached from the overall forum and pull back in a big way. I can't imagine the effect on mental health of the people who immerse themselves and stew in it all. It's like the opposite of cognitive behavioral therapy.

It's less about trading blows and more about giving a sense of hopelessness. Arguing is expected on an internet forum and is inescapable. But seeing countless threads about atrocities, like the Kansas City mass shooting, or politicians abusing their power against human rights, like trump banning trans people from the US military, can take a toll on some.

Deleted member 13188 · Feb 27, 2020

Stone Cold said:
I think it's really sad that some of you want there to be a separate thread where people who need help should post all their problems, away from you. It isnt enough for you to just ignore entering those threads, you don't even want to see them. I for one am glad that people care about this community enough and feel a part of it enough to where they post here when at their lowest and we can collectively let them know that they are loved and it will be alright. In the other thread people were offering up their cell numbers so the OP could call them and have someone to talk to, why in the bloody fucking hell would you want to limit that? That's beautiful and frankly very rare in the grand scope of the web as a whole. Love you guys and gals.

I can point out a potential problem with that: a user looking for help doesn't receive the support they are craving/needing or not enough support or even more specifically not as much as another ERA user received.

It's awful to think about that but if these threads are left unchecked it could very well be a real dynamic that could develop.

Calamari41 · Feb 27, 2020

Ashlette said:
It's less about trading blows and more about giving a sense of hopelessness. Arguing is expected on an internet forum and is inescapable. But seeing countless threads about atrocities, like the Kansas City mass shooting, or politicians abusing their power against human rights, like trump banning trans people from the US military, can take a toll on some.

Right, I agree, I was saying that but I was also saying that on top of all of that it's difficult to even post in entertainment related threads because chances are you're going to have to go on the defensive even there. Can't even say you like a Pokemon game without having to devote an afternoon to defending yourself, etc.

Musubi · Feb 27, 2020

Ashlette said:
It's less about trading blows and more about giving a sense of hopelessness. Arguing is expected on an internet forum and is inescapable. But seeing countless threads about atrocities, like the Kansas City mass shooting, or politicians abusing their power against human rights, like trump banning trans people from the US military, can take a toll on some.

Its a tough thing. So many people look to the internet to find companionship and community when their own personal lives are a fucking wreck but then the internet and social media is just a torrent of garbage news. Its like... what do you do? Its hard sometimes finding the bright spots to keep you going. I may not understand everyone's particular situations but I've felt my own slice of hopelessness plenty of times to sympathize with how they are feeling at least on some level.

Deleted member 5086 · Feb 27, 2020

Bamm_Bamm said:
I can point out a potential problem with that: a user looking for help doesn't receive the support they are craving or not enough support or even more specifically not as much as another ERA user.

It's awful to think about that but if these threads are left unchecked it could very well be a real dynamic that could develop.

I don't think shutting down every single user is the answer to this, though. It's basically asking for everyone to feel ignored, just so some people don't feel ignored.

Ultima_5 · Feb 27, 2020

Stone Cold said:
I think it's really sad that some of you want there to be a separate thread where people who need help should post all their problems, away from you. It isnt enough for you to just ignore entering those threads, you don't even want to see them. I for one am glad that people care about this community enough and feel a part of it enough to where they post here when at their lowest and we can collectively let them know that they are loved and it will be alright. In the other thread people were offering up their cell numbers so the OP could call them and have someone to talk to, why in the bloody fucking hell would you want to limit that? That's beautiful and frankly very rare in the grand scope of the web as a whole. Love you guys and gals.

its really sad that you can only see it from your stance and cant empathize with others going through things that would find the frequent suicide threads triggering and adding more fuel to the fire. not to mention other harm that can happen posting that kind of stuff on this platform (read up a few post about the one thread where the OP found out people were mocking the thread on other forms of social media). its irresponsible to have that stuff open here. direct the individual to people who are professionally trained to handle these things.

Deleted member 8561 · Feb 27, 2020

Mist said:
I think you're really discounting the potential damage from locking a thread where someone is crying out for help. For one, people with depression often feel like they are a burden to others, and feel too guilty to even reach out for help. That, and that any help is pointless, because things could not possibly get better. Immediately locking these threads can come across as dismissive and isolating, which is he last thing we want to do.

I also feel that you're also ignoring the fact that many posts in these threads are specifically urging the OP to seek professional help (or explaining how therapy has helped them), and are merely offering emotional support, not therapy. The idea that locking the thread with a boilerplate message is less damaging to the mental state of a suicidal person than allowing people to express words of comfort and support is something I'm struggling to comprehend. And I say that as someone who has struggled with similar thoughts and feelings as these members. The last thing you want to make someone in this state of mind feel is that they're alone, or a burden to others. Which is the message that instantly locking these threads can send.

I understand where the concern is coming from, as there are potential negative consequences no matter what you do. I'm also the type of person who find these threads difficult to read at times, depending on my own mental health, and that informs how much I am able to monitor them myself, or whether I ask other staff members to take over. So I understand that it can be tough to see these threads. But we have to balance everyone's needs, and that includes people who are in need of urgent support. Speaking from personal experience, I often feel too guilty to even talk to close friends and loved ones about my own struggles, since that above mentioned feeling of being a 'burden' pops up. But I'm fortunate to have some kind of support group, and it's thanks to this peer support that I was able to seek professional help, which greatly accelerated my own healing process. This is what peer support does. When someone is in that dark state of mind, even getting professional can seem pointless. Some people are also incapable of seeking professional help at all based on their circumstances. Engaging with and encouraging members can keep them going until they can get the support that they need.

I will also add that if any member sees an unhelpful or insensitive comment in such a thread, please report it. We will at the very least remove the post.

I'm not discounting it, I understand the view of "how can you just lock a thread and leave a boilerplate reply to someone in need?" is seen as cold and uncaring.

What I'm wondering is, it used to be policy to do just that, both on GAF and I think for some time, on ERA. What changed?

My argument is, not having suicide threads on public display for great lengths of time doesn't mean people posting them can't get the help they need. Mods can give them the resources they need in their time of crisis without the potential major consequences that the threads themselves might bring to themselves and others. Accessing a hotline isn't what I consider "professional help" in terms of therapy. It's trained assistance from people who are far more equipped to handle these situations than the vast majority of posters on ERA are.

And again, I find it troubling that expectations of an outpouring of support are being built by the moderation staff for these type of threads and I'm extremely worried to what happens when people don't feel those expectations of support are met if they decide to make a thread regarding suicide/cry for help.

Uncivilized Elk said:
Which is why some people never even talk honestly about it and end up killing themselves. Because they fear being detained against their will and imprisoned at a facility for voicing what's going through their head.

I'm not foreign to this, which is why I specific talked about highly troubling posts that outright declare the willingness to end their lives. It needs to be said that just talking about suicidal thoughts is not grounds for mental health crisis detainment, but the argument that these posts being made literally declaring a willingness to end their lives heavily falls into the "in crisis" category, which is why I find it so troubling that the policy is to basically let the ERA population at large handle it and then just see if they post again the next day... and then essentially forget about it.

Anyways, I've said my piece. This topic was on my mind for a while now, but with the resent uptick of similar threads I've had a chance to actually talk about it. I greatly disagree with the moderation/administrations actions on this topic, but there isn't much more to be said.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

BAD said:
If everyone knows these threads will equally lead to being pointed toward more equipped and professional help, that is infinitely better than leaving them afloat with random untrained public posts and varying number of responses that measure their worth - all while many in this thread have said it feels really unhealthy for their own vulnerable minds to see so much suicidal content when they are trying to stay afloat.

Again:

BAD said:
If the mental health experts you've asked have said that your policy should stand contrary to any of the more resource backed platforms in online social communities, then I encourage you guys to seek more specialized opinions.

Kyuuji said:
The general policy? Which communities and can you link the guidelines you mention for discussion?

You cite them and it would be good to know which policies you're referencing directly so we can discuss if those measures would work here.

Ultima_5 · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
Again:

You cite them and it would be good to know which policies you're referencing directly so we can discuss if those measures would work here.

whats stopping you from digging them up? i cant imagine most have it written out in the guidelines specifically. most of us came from GAF where it was done for years.

Stone Cold · Feb 27, 2020

Bamm_Bamm said:
I can point out a potential problem with that: a user looking for help doesn't receive the support they are craving or not enough support or even more specifically not as much as another ERA user.

It's awful to think about that but if these threads are left unchecked it could very well be a real dynamic that could develop.

That's also a problem with our format that doesnt have a solution, unfortunately. No matter what you do as a community, we can't provide the same kind of therapeutic relief that a trained professional or understanding family could provide. All we can do is let our community know that they're important to us and that isn't meaningless. I truly attribute much of my early-adulthood growth to this community.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

Ultima_5 said:
whats stopping you from digging them up? i cant imagine most have it written out in the guidelines specifically. most of us came from GAF where it was done for years.

..because I don't know which policies on which "resource backed platforms in online social communities" he's referencing?

Chopchop · Feb 27, 2020

There are two recurring points among all the suicide thread OPs that we've seen recently:

1) I feel like the world is going to shit and there's nothing I can do about it.
2) I feel very alone.

Both of these things may be at least somewhat affected by trends on this forum.

#1 is likely excaberated by the endless stream of depressing news on the OT forum. There are a lot of threads that go something like "shitty person says/does shitty thing" or "something horrible happened", and there is no real discussion to be had on those threads besides raging at the people in question, or grieving at what was lost. This is exactly why threads reporting particularly bad news like a murder or plane crash or something are often locked in short order, which is a decision I agree with - there's not much discussion to be had about that news, and all they do is rile up negative emotions like anger, grief, despair, and so on.

While I believe there is value in keeping up with news to see what people are saying and doing, I also feel like there's been too much depressing news on this forum lately. You can load up the OT at any time of the day and there will always be at least two or three such threads, and that can wear on one's mental health, especially when they're already feeling down. So I think maybe it may be worth considering cracking down a little more on the endless stream of depressing news threads, or closing them after discussion peters out (which happens very quickly) to diminish their constant presence on the main page. Alternately, loop them into a continuous thread to again make them less dominant on the main page.

#2 may be related to how angry people are becoming, and how quickly they become incredibly hostile to each other at the slightest provocation. This one is IMO more of a general internet thing, and is related to how so much relationship advice is stereotypically "break up with that person", family/friend advice is "cut that person off", and so on, when such things are typically last resorts rather than the first thing you do.

Online, a very "it's us or them" mentality is encouraged, and whenever you're not 100% in agreement with someone or have the slightest issue with what they said, then sometimes people will instantly decide that you should be attacked just as hard as someone who 100% disagrees with them. The problem with this black-and-white mentality is that it's very isolating, because it encourages people to attack, burn bridges and shun each other first and ask questions later, if at all. It discourages people who want discussion on a discussion board, and instead fills it with people basically itching for a fight. It makes people afraid to ask questions or speak up about anything that is not already clearly in consensus. There is a real fear of being dogpiled on here, and that may be contributing to why people feel very alone, with no one to talk to.

Uncivilized Elk · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm not foreign to this, which is why I specific talked about highly troubling posts that outright declare the willingness to end their lives.

That's literally what I was talking about.
People are afraid, especially when calling suicide hotlines, to voice that they're planning to kill themselves because they fear getting cops called on them and being detained.

Deleted member 13188 · Feb 27, 2020

Mist said:
I don't think shutting down every single user is the answer to this, though. It's basically asking for everyone to feel ignored, just so some people don't feel ignored.

I think a mental health era section should be available (not just a thread) from the sidebar and the threads move immediately and left open within a flexible time limit. I don't think leaving them open indefinitley is a good idea.

Etcetera is not the place for this. Guidelines are needed asap IMO so they can be followed.

Also a mental health era section could be a place for discussion and support not just a suicide thread graveyard.

Ultima_5 · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
..because I don't know which policies on which "resource backed platforms in online social communities" he's referencing?

cant imagine any one them have anything written specifically.

Papa Satanás · Feb 27, 2020

The Woods said:
Official Staff Communication

Let's try this again. As stated before, hijacking this thread to complain about the strictness of moderation or cancel culture will not be tolerated. More broadly, this is a very serious discussion that warrants sensitivity, empathy and a responsible approach. You have no compulsion to post if you don't care about the subject. The team will be reading the thread and discussing suggestions that come up, as well as responding to constructive feedback. We want the forum culture and community to improve, just as much as you all. But insensitive, dismissive and inflammatory posts will be subject to moderation.

This seems like a good moment to clarify the steps we take for 'cry for help' threads, as well as the Mental Health community as a whole. When we are alerted to a member making a post or thread that suggests depressive or suicidal thoughts, we try to give them an alert/notice with resources that they can use in their country. Whether that's telephone helplines, or websites. This is accompanied with a supportive message. This message can only be disabled on our end, until we're sure the user is safe or feeling better. We also have a staff member reach out via PM, and give them further resources such as the Mental Health OT, and an invite to the Mental Health discord. In extreme cases where we believe a member is in danger, we take further steps as we are able to.

We have had two meetings with the Mental Health community, and also have two staff members involved in running the MH Discord. As a result of those meetings, the MH OT has been moved to the main Etcetera section for visibility. The thread would not be stickied without involvement and discussion with that community. What we are currently discussing as a result of the feedback in this thread, however, is a pinned thread with resources (including the MH OT). This is a topic that we take very seriously, and have expended a lot of effort on. This is a personal and important subject for us as well. We appreciate the constructive feedback that has been given so far, and promise to take it into consideration.

The thread will be opened momentarily.

Do you guys happen to have the Kids Help Phone Crisis Text Line in your resources? It's Canada only, but I volunteer with them as a crisis counselor, and it's really getting traction here. People are becoming more and more inclined to text than actually make a call - it's great.

Need help now? Text us.

Youth can text for mental health support 24/7 using Kids Help Phone’s texting service.

kidshelpphone.ca

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

Bamm_Bamm said:
I think a mental health era section should be available (not just a thread) from the sidebar and the threads move immediately and left open within a flexible time limit. I don't think leaving them open indefinitley is a good idea.

Also a mental health era section could be a place for discussion and support not just a suicide thread graveyard.

This is an interesting suggestion, especially if only readable by registered members.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Feb 27, 2020

Calamari41 said:
Even many pop culture OT threads and threads on the Gaming side are full of people panicking at news about this or that game, and how it is so awful and the franchise is ruined and anyone who disagrees is horrible and on and on.

I don't know how every topic being catastrophized can be mitigated, but it has certainly caused me to become significantly detached from the overall forum and pull back in a big way. I can't imagine the effect on mental health of the people who immerse themselves and stew in it all. It's like the opposite of cognitive behavioral therapy.

I just want to highlight this since I keep seeing posts in here about how OT is depressing due to the news being posted:

Also consider that not all of us enjoy how hyperbolic general media discussion is, and that constantly seeing threads about things we might enjoy be bogged down with the same complaining, argumentative, dichotomous "discussion" ad nauseum (cough cough Star Wars cough cough Pokémon) isn't great for people's mental health, either. I know some of y'all have fun with your "debates" or feel a catharsis venting into a perceived void but if seeing one kind of negativity brings you down it's important to consider the negativity you might be inadvertently bringing someone else down with.

Someone in here said that the negativity of OT probably pushed industry people away when my experience watching that has been that they've been pushed out because they were attacked for liking a game that a lot of folks did not like, or for playfully teasing people in a leak thread that was taken too seriously, or things like that.

Stone Cold · Feb 27, 2020

Ultima_5 said:
its really sad that you can only see it from your stance and cant empathize with others going through things that would find the frequent suicide threads triggering and adding more fuel to the fire. not to mention other harm that can happen posting that kind of stuff on this platform (read up a few post about the one thread where the OP found out people were mocking the thread on other forms of social media). its irresponsible to have that stuff open here. direct the individual to people who are professionally trained to handle these things.

Have you ever been depressed or suicidal? Often knowing you're not alone has the opposite effect. Also, if you know the community will just direct you to the suicide help line and close your thread, why would you bother even posting? They clearly dont want to be bothered by you, and all you'll get is an empty response to go deal with it yourself. Now I know I cant speak for everyone, but a separate area for suicide threads is frankly not a viable solution.

Ultima_5 · Feb 27, 2020

Stone Cold said:
Have you ever been depressed or suicidal? Often knowing you're not alone has the opposite effect. Also, if you know the community will just direct you to the suicide help line and close your thread, why would you bother even posting? They clearly dont want to be bothered by you, and all you'll get is an empty response to go deal with it yourself. Now I know I cant speak for everyone, but a separate area for suicide threads is frankly not a viable solution.

oh for sure, ive been for years. this place is not the venue for it, and it shouldn't be encouraged.

Deleted member 5086 · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
I'm not discounting it, I understand the view of "how can you just lock a thread and leave a boilerplate reply to someone in need?" is seen as cold and uncaring.

What I'm wondering is, it used to be policy to do just that, both on GAF and I think for some time, on ERA. What changed?

My argument is, not having suicide threads on public display for great lengths of time doesn't mean people posting them can't get the help they need. Mods can give them the resources they need in their time of crisis without the potential major consequences that the threads themselves might bring to themselves and others. Accessing a hotline isn't what I consider "professional help" in terms of therapy. It's trained assistance from people who are far more equipped to handle these situations than the vast majority of posters on ERA are.

And again, I find it troubling that expectations of an outpouring of support are being built by the moderation staff for these type of threads and I'm extremely worried to what happens when people don't feel those expectations of support are met if they decide to make a thread regarding suicide/cry for help.

I'm not foreign to this, which is why I specific talked about highly troubling posts that outright declare the willingness to end their lives. It needs to be said that just talking about suicidal thoughts is not grounds for mental health crisis detainment, but the argument that these posts being made literally declaring a willingness to end their lives heavily falls into the "in crisis" category, which is why I find it so troubling that the policy is to basically let the ERA population at large handle it and then just see if they post again the next day... and then essentially forget about it.

It's mentioned in the staff post, but we're definitely not just letting the community handle it. Everything you're asking of us, we already do. We not only give them a notice that cannot be dismissed with resources, we reach out via PM and offer both support and more resources. In more serious cases, we take further steps as well. We have several staff members who help run the Mental Health discord, which is a more constant form of peer support. Some members do not always reply to PMs, however, despite being online and active. Everyone is different, and I don't think shutting down one avenue of support is helpful, fair or kind.

Speaking personally, I always found the thought of speaking to a stranger on a hotline too intimidating, and I'm not someone who struggles with social anxiety or anything. I find speaking to strangers quite easy. But speaking about something so personal can be hard. It was terrifying speaking to a doctor about it myself, for the first time, and that's thanks to the stigma attached to mental health, more so in some cultures than others. So I can only imagine how much more difficult it can be for someone who has social anxiety for example. We have to keep in mind that everyone is an individual and they're going to reach out for help in the way that is easiest and most comfortable for them. I think it's best to compare these threads as opening up to a friend, rather than seeing professional help. Because yes, even a friend or loved one can say the wrong thing, but that doesn't mean that their emotional support wouldn't be helpful. What I'd love to see happen though is for the culture of the forum to improve. I'll just quote something I said in another thread recently:

The fact that people feel comfortable enough to speak up here, instead of bottling it up, I feel is a good thing. The important thing is that the responses are supportive, empathetic and responsible. We can work on creating a forum culture where those kinds of replies are the standard. Some kind of support group, even an online one, is better than no support system at all.

Our current approach is one that we've taken after speaking to individuals who are affected by these issues as well as those with professional experience. It's one I personally feel has been more effective in helping individuals.

Faenix1 · Feb 27, 2020

Papa Satanás said:
Do you guys happen to have the Kids Help Phone Crisis Text Line in your resources? It's Canada only, but I volunteer with them as a crisis counselor, and it's really getting traction here. People are becoming more and more inclined to text than actually make a call - it's great.

Need help now? Text us.

Youth can text for mental health support 24/7 using Kids Help Phone’s texting service.

kidshelpphone.ca

Oh shit, we have a way to text now? Amazing. I had no clue.

As someone that always "shuts down" being verbal, either over the phone or face to face, having a way to just text would of been helpful.

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