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Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,670
on the old boards didn't mods post a message w/ hotline numbers and then lock the thread?

I empathize that people are reaching out for help, but i honestly dont think this is the right venue for that. though it is nice seeing others being pretty compassionate in those threads.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
I've noticed this too as of late. I try to offer words of encouragement and advice in those threads, but I think we're seeing the continuing effects of the lack of mental health resources notably in the US. That's not just been evident on Era, that's been on social media a lot from what I've seen. I don't necessarily think the threads should be locked since that might lead the to OP thinking they don't matter when they cry for help, but mods should be alerted ASAP and be on the lookout for snarky posters who might say something that could push an OP over the edge.

In my university of ~17,000 students, we currently have three on-call therapists with a waiting list of around a month for one on one sessions.

They have had to resort to group sessions now just to get people in.

Fucking ridiculous.
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,023
Has the team discussed closing suicide threads at all? Is there a rationale for letting them run their course?
Yes, that is something we have and do discuss. There are ups and downs to all solutions, but we feel that being able to offer informal peer support to a member in crisis is an important thing to do as a community, especially as times are hard for many right now, and we don't all have access to the same support systems and resources. If a user is in crisis, the first thing we do is try to connect them with professional services during those difficult moments, but informal peer support can do a lot of good in the meantime. We will, at times, lock the thread once we know the user is in a safer place. Though there are times we may leave it open if we feel the user in question may quickly need to return to it, or there is a lot of positivity and support that may be crucial.
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,171
I honestly think it's more part of a wider phenomenon of a dark time with a seeming slow erosion of democracy and climate change presenting a real threat to the future. People who are interested in global events and the future, which this forum is enriched for compared to other internet communities, are going to have a palpable sense of that and some are going to be in a psychologically frail state.

I do think however that this community - Etcetera in particular - tends to dwell on negative aspects, like only responding to bad news stories in climate change threads for instance while skipping over posts that mention actionable things you can do or good news stories. Those threads almost always are dominated by "we're totally fucked" etc posts. I often try to post positive aspects supportable by data or reputable resources and they tend to get ignored in favor of the polemic or negative posts. There are also some prominent community members here who post a lot of threads that are negative, I'm not even sure if they realize they are doing it.

To the issue at hand, I'm really not sure about closing suicide threads... that should probably be a data-driven decision, and maybe we could even involve the input of a psychiatrist and/or psychologist. I think the whole approach is generally to listen and speak to someone. If you tip even one person over, that's a big problem. I think the community should find a way to be supportive while maybe trying to eliminate some of the burden on the rest of the community, which is probably a real issue. I dunno... maybe a volunteer based buddy-up system where they are paired with a person when the thread is closed? There always seem to be a ton of amazing members in those threads who step forward and say "I'm here OP to talk, OP...." (which not coincidentally is another positive aspect of this forum that we should highlight and that people are ignoring...)
 
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Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Yes, that is something we have and do discuss. There are ups and downs to all solutions, but we feel that being able to offer informal peer support to a member in crisis is an important thing to do as a community, especially as times are hard for many right now, and we don't all have access to the same support systems and resources. If a user is in crisis, the first thing we do is try to connect them with professional services during those difficult moments, but informal peer support can do a lot of good in the meantime. We will, at times, lock the thread once we know the user is in a safer place. Though there are times we may leave it open if we feel the user in question may quickly need to return to it, or there is a lot of positivity and support that may be crucial.

I can't really stress enough how reckless this for a multitude of reasons

You are creating expectations for people who make these threads, and setting a horribly dangerous situation up if those expectations aren't met.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,998
It's a minor thing but I would like to see that some "stupid threads" be kept open for dumb fun mindless conversation. One was recently locked as it was "unlikely to generate good discussion" or something. I don't think a thread necessarily needs to have a purpose sometimes other than to let people chat.

I agree, I do think letting sillier threads last longer would probably make etcetera a bit more positive - break up the monotony of endless (mostly negative) news threads.

Making a completely separate news sub-forum even more so, but it's obviously a much bigger undertaking.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,057
I'm not sure there is much more you can do other than what is being done in those threads, members offering support to the person making that thread. I don't think this message board is equipped to do much beyond that. I also think it's sort of presumptuous to assume this forum or this forum's activity is what is causing these mental health issues. Yes sometimes forums and social media in general can be mentally draining, and people should be encouraged to take a break and disconnect when neccesary, but this forum could just be the place those people are using as an outlet for help. It doesn't neccesarily mean it's the thread content making people depressed.
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,620
Official Staff Communication

This seems like a good moment to clarify the steps we take for 'cry for help' threads, as well as the Mental Health community as a whole. When we are alerted to a member making a post or thread that suggests depressive or suicidal thoughts, we try to give them an alert/notice with resources that they can use in their country. Whether that's telephone helplines, or websites. This is accompanied with a supportive message. This message can only be disabled on our end, until we're sure the user is safe or feeling better. We also have a staff member reach out via PM, and give them further resources such as the Mental Health OT, and an invite to the Mental Health discord. In extreme cases where we believe a member is in danger, we take further steps as we are able to.

Just a reminder, in the staff post we discussed how we respond to threads and posts like these.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
I don't have any opinion about this topic in particular, but if you feel the Internet is getting in your skin and feel the world closing down unto you, seriously, walk away from your computer/phone.

Sadly, the Internet is a non stop bad news feed, and that's no bueno for anyone. Everyone should take a break or two. And when you feel good again, do declutter your social networks and Internet interactions.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Sometimes it seems like similar feelings can manifest as a sort of catastrophism. Being cynical isn't necessarily a problem obviously but constant unreasonable fixation on the worst possible outcome (and insisting it's inevitable despite evidence otherwise) sometimes seems unhealthy and I'm not really sure how it could be addressed. The viewpoint doesn't really respond to reasoned pushback since it's not a reasoned position to start, but letting it sit there and having people wallow in it and encourage it seems like a bad idea. What's the best way to tackle that?
 

Jarate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,614
Locking the thread would be absolutely the worst possible thing to do.

People posted those calls for help on here for a reason. They need humanity, and maybe this is their first place to think of when they are on their last legs.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,057
on the old boards didn't mods post a message w/ hotline numbers and then lock the thread?

I empathize that people are reaching out for help, but i honestly dont think this is the right venue for that. though it is nice seeing others being pretty compassionate in those threads.

I don't think anyone in those threads oversteps their bounds in terms of mental health. Nobody is playing arm chair psychologist, they are just offering words of support.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Yes, that is something we have and do discuss. There are ups and downs to all solutions, but we feel that being able to offer informal peer support to a member in crisis is an important thing to do as a community, especially as times are hard for many right now, and we don't all have access to the same support systems and resources. If a user is in crisis, the first thing we do is try to connect them with professional services during those difficult moments, but informal peer support can do a lot of good in the meantime. We will, at times, lock the thread once we know the user is in a safer place. Though there are times we may leave it open if we feel the user in question may quickly need to return to it, or there is a lot of positivity and support that may be crucial.

Piggy backing off this;

Have the administration or the upper levels of the moderation team actually consulted mental health professionals on this, at all?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,751
Arizona
I honestly think it's more part of a wider phenomenon of a dark time with a seeming slow erosion of democracy and climate change presenting a real threat to the future. People who are interested in global events and the future, which this forum is enriched for compared to other internet communities, are going to have a palpable sense of that and some are going to be in a a psychologically frail

This happens on all forums. On neogaf, suicide threads were locked because it would just spawn more people posting suicide threads. There was a poster that did it every few months just to get the outpouring of support.

People see how much emotional support others are getting and want some of that in their lives.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Yes, that is something we have and do discuss. There are ups and downs to all solutions, but we feel that being able to offer informal peer support to a member in crisis is an important thing to do as a community, especially as times are hard for many right now, and we don't all have access to the same support systems and resources. If a user is in crisis, the first thing we do is try to connect them with professional services during those difficult moments, but informal peer support can do a lot of good in the meantime. We will, at times, lock the thread once we know the user is in a safer place. Though there are times we may leave it open if we feel the user in question may quickly need to return to it, or there is a lot of positivity and support that may be crucial.
This is dangerous and ignorant of why people who need professional help are told to talk to someone. Not talk to ANYONE. They need someone trained.

A suicide thread is not considerate of the well-being of the many people in here expressing that it is triggering their own issues to keep seeing these float up because they remain open. Peer support can happen in PMs, discord for mental health, or the mental health community thread where people more ready to have these conversations reside. But peer support on a suicide thread is far less essential than making sure people seek a trained professional.

Era shouldn't be sitting here throwing "Your valid" and "tell us why" at public suicide threads in hopes of doing what a professional does. People would be fired in real life if they ran any public space this way with people's suicide threat dangling for the rest of the audience to join in on and try not to be affected too hard by themselves.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I think these types of mental health issues are the inevitable results of a faceless online community that's so centered around an anti-social, isolating, often misanthropic past-time. We are seeing the social and public health effects of video game culture. And we as a community have to figure out how to heal.
 
Jun 22, 2019
3,660
Nothing can go wrong!

Unless a cry for help gets lost in the shuffle, and someone hoping for an outpouring of support finds an empty thread because they posted at the wrong time of day, during a major news event, and now are suddenly thinking and reinforcing how nobody gives a shit about them, because they saw a bunch of other threads where people were kind, supportive over dozens of posts with only like half a dozen posts.

What if somebody PMs the OP of a locked thread and says something wrong?

What if merely the act of locking the thread sends the user over the edge?

What if calling the hotline results with the person having cops come to their house, and the cops kill that person?

I don't think merely stating 'something can go wrong' is a compelling enough argument.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
This forum's strength is that its posters are willing to talk to and help people who are feeling suicidal thoughts.

I don't see how that is a bad thing or a danger, so long as the mods keep weeding out the trolls.

There aren't a lot of anonymous outlets for people who are feeling lost and hopeless to reach out to.

The mods here have a lot of responsibility with it. But they seem up to the task.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. People in need have a way to express themselves and others are willing to talk to them. That's a good thing.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
ERA is not a healthy place to be, especially for people who have anxiety, depression and other issues that are exacerbated by an endless flood of nihilistic shit that people post.

I'm extremely concerned that suicide threats aren't instantly locked and reported on, especially when you factor in that people who are making suicide threads are very likely being influenced by what they are consuming on ERA as well. It's beyond reckless that mods let these threads stay open and let untrained posters deal with someone who may or may not be having a "cry for help".

Not to mention, it isn't healthy for the community at all if suicide threads are just allowed to be on the top of the OT page for an entire day, it's not fair to people who suffer from suicidal idolization if they see a thread about self arm get flooded with support, and not fair for people who are just on ERA to see a thread where someone is threatening self harm. There really seems to be a complete lack of regard for basically everyone else and the impact these threads have on others in the community.



If your average internet poster can talk someone out of suicide, then a trained professional will almost always have the toolset to do that. And what about the flip side? How can you be sure that random people on the internet aren't going to say the wrong thing and cause far more issues than just locking the thread, contacting authorities if needed, or posting a the suicide hotline? This blind faith on the general ERA posting population to handle suicide threads is insane.

There has been a lot of talk about moderation of the last few months, and by far the lack of any action on suicide threads is probably the most reckless shit I've seen in regards to the mods choosing to do nothing and letting the threads stay up and have untrained people openly comment and "help" OP's who are claiming to wanting to self harm or end their lives.
Eh, you are saying you are worried about people with suicidal ideation seeing those threads, but as someone who does struggle with suicidal ideation on a nearly daily basis, I don't think your suggestion here is helpful at all. Immediately locking these types of threads (which are clearly cries for help) sends the message, both to the person posting and the people seeing the thread be locked, that such things are not wanted to be seen by the community. That you'd rather ignore the suffering and sweep it under the rug.

Sure, people here are not professionals equipped to deal with crisis situations, but the behavior in those threads is uniformly positive. People providing the crisis hotline, people providing support, people showing understanding based on their own suicidal ideation/attempts and how things got better, etc. People who make these threads just want to be heard, and locking the threads immediately does the exact opposite.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Piggy backing off this;

Have the administration or the upper levels of the moderation team actually consulted mental health professionals on this, at all?
Doubt it. I can't imagine a working professional in this field saying that social media platforms should let the live stream continue when someone says they want to die. That's terrible for other users and terrible risk to the person contemplating.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,431
Locking the thread would be absolutely the worst possible thing to do.

People posted those calls for help on here for a reason. They need humanity, and maybe this is their first place to think of when they are on their last legs.
I've posted on many other forums and off the top of my head every single one closed suicide threads with a hotline number. There's a very real risk in allowing suicide threads to remain open for days, no matter how well-meaning the staff's intentions are, not only to that user but to others who are seeing the threads. It's a really tough call but I do agree with the posters saying the handling of these threads is irresponsible.
 

Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,019
We actually do have some stuff planned for the coming weeks/months that should be a lot of fun. Actually, one or two of the things you mentioned are on the list of planned events. Beyond that, I hope we'll be able to have another Thanos-style event in the next month or so. There are a few different things like this running right now, if you wanna go check out the nextgen thread and the World of Warcraft OT.

It's just that this kinda stuff takes a lot of effort on our part, so it can take a bit.
Or sure, but I was mostly talking about members doing things like that. Maybe you could ask members if they want to do stuff like this and like interview them to see if they would make good candidates ?
I wouldn't mind launching a guild in some MMO myself for EU Era for instance.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
What if somebody PMs the OP of a locked thread and says something wrong?

What if merely the act of locking the thread sends the user over the edge?

What if calling the hotline results with the person having cops come to their house, and the cops kill that person?

I don't think merely stating 'something can go wrong' is a compelling enough argument.

ERA is not a suicide hotline.

Asking for support from the place that is assisting in driving depression, anxiety, hopelessness is not a solution to those issues.

ERA, is not remotely equipped to handle these things. The responsible thing to do is to direct people to crisis hotlines and have people who are at lease reasonable trained to handle these situations... handle them.

The margin of error for something going wrong with just letting random internet people talk to a person who is suicidal is fucking wide enough that it makes me furious such an option is being practiced.

If what people here are calling "cries for help" can be handled by ERA members... it can be handled by someone who is trained in literally dealing with cries for help without opening up the massive margin of error that soliciting responses from random people online brings.

And if that's the case, then why are we exposing suicide threads to the wider population of ERA and not considering what that does to people?
 
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Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,467
I don't really have a lot to add as I'd really just be restating this post. This forum is demonstrably exhibiting suicide contagion symptoms and that's incredibly troubling. Leaving the threads open to be handled by untrained professionals, open to to the world, and vulnerable to bad actors is so utterly irresponsible that it's shocking.

Yup. I don't know why it's controversial to say that keeping threads about suicidal ideation open leads to wider negative consequences
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,676
this forum needs a way to allow you to curate what you see here so those of us who deal with depression and anxiety dont have to constantly see topics that make us feel horrible. a keyword filter built into the site would go a long way
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,418
ERA is not a healthy place to be, especially for people who have anxiety, depression and other issues that are exacerbated by an endless flood of nihilistic shit that people post.

I'm extremely concerned that suicide threats aren't instantly locked and reported on, especially when you factor in that people who are making suicide threads are very likely being influenced by what they are consuming on ERA as well. It's beyond reckless that mods let these threads stay open and let untrained posters deal with someone who may or may not be having a "cry for help".

Not to mention, it isn't healthy for the community at all if suicide threads are just allowed to be on the top of the OT page for an entire day, it's not fair to people who suffer from suicidal idolization if they see a thread about self arm get flooded with support, and not fair for people who are just on ERA to see a thread where someone is threatening self harm. There really seems to be a complete lack of regard for basically everyone else and the impact these threads have on others in the community.



If your average internet poster can talk someone out of suicide, then a trained professional will almost always have the toolset to do that. And what about the flip side? How can you be sure that random people on the internet aren't going to say the wrong thing and cause far more issues than just locking the thread, contacting authorities if needed, or posting a the suicide hotline? This blind faith on the general ERA posting population to handle suicide threads is insane.

There has been a lot of talk about moderation of the last few months, and by far the lack of any action on suicide threads is probably the most reckless shit I've seen in regards to the mods choosing to do nothing and letting the threads stay up and have untrained people openly comment and "help" OP's who are claiming to wanting to self harm or end their lives.

I don't really have a lot to add as I'd really just be restating this post. This forum is demonstrably exhibiting suicide contagion symptoms and that's incredibly troubling. Leaving the threads open to be handled by untrained professionals, open to to the world, and vulnerable to bad actors is so utterly irresponsible that it's shocking.

thank you. I tried to make a similar point last night, in a report asking the mods to consider their handling of suicide threads, but it was immediately resolved with a boilerplate "we're monitoring the situation" response, which makes me believe they didn't actually read my report at all. as a person with severe depression seeing a constant parade of threads of members expressing their intent to kill themselves fucks me up. I really understand the staff doesn't want to turn away a person in crisis but I really question if current policy is the best way to handle things.

i've been using internet forums for over 20 years and the prevalence of suicide threads here is far beyond anything i've ever experienced elsewhere
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,670
I don't think anyone in those threads oversteps their bounds in terms of mental health. Nobody is playing arm chair psychologist, they are just offering words of support.

ill be honest, i dont read through them that thoroughly. i didn't mean to imply that people were doing that. i just dont think having them on a video game message board is appropriate. i know people are struggling and reaching out, but i do think letting them stay open is a form of encouragement for others to post in the future.

i think how it was handled back on GAF made sense on how to handle a difficult topic/situation. directing them towards a hotline makes a ton of sense as its designated for that. this place isn't.
 

Advance_Alarm

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
316
My 2 cents is that the suicide threads need to be locked and the OPs directed to professional help. Well wishes aren't a substitute for medical professionals. In addition, I think the suicide posting thing is a side symptom similar to depressed people donating to online personalities so that they can get a 5 second positive feeling when the person acknowledges them.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,711
Or sure, but I was mostly talking about members doing things like that. Maybe you could ask members if they want to do stuff like this and like interview them to see if they would make good candidates ?
I wouldn't mind launching a guild in some MMO myself for EU Era for instance.
MMO guilds already largely exist, if you jump into the various OTs you can join up pretty easy (or at least find people to play with, I know I do).
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
I'm glad you made this thread, OP. I've been wanting to ask the same question but couldn't put it into words I was comfortable with. I've been on the internet for a long time and through many communities and I've never seen anything like this. A favorable view would be that it reflects the closeness or receptiveness of the community but idk
 

T0M

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 13, 2019
900
I think locking the thread along with giving the OP links to mental health resources is the best thing to do.

It's good that we rely on each other to get through the ups and downs of everyday living, but we're not mental health professionals. People want to be supportive, and that's great, but there's still the risk of saying the wrong thing that might send someone over the edge.

I know this sounds bad, but we're random strangers on an internet forum, what else do you expect us to do?
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
How much money does this website have? Imagine if we hired a part-time mental health worker. And what if some of the volunteer staff and moderators were better trained in these issues?
 

Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,601
this forum needs a way to allow you to curate what you see here so those of us who deal with depression and anxiety dont have to constantly see topics that make us feel horrible. a keyword filter built into the site would go a long way

Couldn't you just press the "Ignore Thread" button in those cases? That's what I do when I start seeing a myriad of negative news threads that bring me down.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
But that sentiment of helplessness can be increased by the way Era focuses more on the depressing side of the world today. There's obviously some problems in the life of the people having suicidal thoughts but coming to a place that should/could be a way for you to escape that reality and only seeing how everything is bleak can't be helpful.
It's not ResetEra's fault that the news are mostly negative. There's still plenty of discussion about movies, tv series, music & other culture (like, well over half, usually), there's the community side that is almost all devoid of Trump/fascist doom & gloom outside of a few political threads, and positive news get posted here as well, but those being super common is just not the reality we live in today + news networks themselves focus on the negative. Fascism is on the rise and nature is going to shit. It'd be nice to read about gay/trans rights being expanded everywhere, conservation efforts bearing fruit, fewer mass shootings, cures for serious diseases or whatever a lot more often, but that's unfortunately not what's happening in the world.

The ignore thread function is there if some of these threads are too depressing and you can also subsribe to threads you're interested in and mostly keep away from the main forum altogether that way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,743
Toronto, ON
I don't know the solution but I feel like allowing thousands of randoms on a forum primarily devoted to video games and pop culture to comment on a person's severe mental health and suicidal ideation issues is not sustainable or healthy for anyone involved.
 
May 25, 2019
6,020
London
Yes, that is something we have and do discuss. There are ups and downs to all solutions, but we feel that being able to offer informal peer support to a member in crisis is an important thing to do as a community, especially as times are hard for many right now, and we don't all have access to the same support systems and resources. If a user is in crisis, the first thing we do is try to connect them with professional services during those difficult moments, but informal peer support can do a lot of good in the meantime. We will, at times, lock the thread once we know the user is in a safer place. Though there are times we may leave it open if we feel the user in question may quickly need to return to it, or there is a lot of positivity and support that may be crucial.

Thanks for the response and I'm glad to see there's been thought given to this. I don't necessarily agree with all of the process but I don't want to derail the thread.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,670
I think that as a community there's many many many more proactive steps we could be taking, and in fact that it's our responsibility to do so (especially the people who own the website)
it isn't their responsibility. mental health issues aren't the person fault, but it is their responsibility. it doesn't fall on others.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
That sounds like a legal nightmare I'm not sure anyone wants.
To be more clear I'm not talking about putting anyone in charge of suicide response. I'm more talking about how we can support each other and create a healthy culture as a community and prevent folks from reaching the point of suicide in the first place.
 

AMAGON

Prominent Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,925
Austin, TX
I'm with the idea of locking the thread and immediately linking them to the mental health community thread for support which at this point should be a sticky.

We all may not be psychologists but some members here are there to listen and to help.

I'll throw myself out there if someone needs a person to talk to either here or irl (Central NJ-NYC), so at least you have a real person to connect to. I may not have all the answers but I know how rough and alone one person can take. Just gotta keep on keeping on and have a goal to feel better again. Anything to stay positive.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,605
As someone whom has been permabanned from communities before for posting suicidal threats (when I actually felt suicidal and despondent), and whom is also currently so broke that she cannot afford a decent therapist: eh, do what you will. At least, that's what I say on my own behalf. For the sake of others besides myself needing a place to vent or reach out for an encouraging word, I would plead for understanding and a charitable attitude. Otherwise, I value my life very little right now. So if my voice needs to be silenced once again, what will it ultimately amount to in the grand scheme of things? Not much, really. Life is as life does.
 
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Jun 22, 2019
3,660
People want to be supportive, and that's great, but there's still the risk of saying the wrong thing that might send someone over the edge.

If that's the concern, the thread has to be full-on deleted because people can still see the thread and send DMs.

I also can't help but wonder how someone who's only resource is the suicide hotline would feel if they made a thread after having already tried the hotline, only for it to be wiped clean off the forum.
 
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