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The MCU doesn't deserve Captain America
- Thread starter Spinluck
- Start date
Can't believe some of the shit I'm reading in this thread.
Tony was clearly in the wrong, but Zemo had specifically orchestrated for him to find out the information about his parents' death at the worst possible time under extreme duress. Yeah, Steve should have told him, and under better conditions, I think it might have gone over okay. But Tony flew off the handle, and it bit him in the ass, because it directly broke up the Avengers. Flash forward to Infinity War when he's going out into space solo to save Strange with a stowaway Spider-Man, if the Avengers were still together and had gone with them to meet up with Thanos on Titan, they would've gotten that gauntlet off 100% because they are a better team than the mix-up of Guardians and Tony/Pete/Strange. It's irony that the reason they lost the fight was because Quill lost his head over the knowledge of Gamora's death, to which Tony pleads with him to cool it. Full circle right there.
Take a Stand is the best MCU theme after the Avengers one for me.
I don't see how you can say that if you've watched all the movies.
With First Avenger he's an underdog that's willing to do whatever it takes to serve his country and fight bad guys overseas and does his patriotic duty. Then through the events in Avengers that Shield is using hydra weaponry, something he sacrificed himself for back in the day so those weapons wouldn't be used again, while that information being hidden from him, he starts to doubt. In Winter Soldier, it comes to a head with Fury and the helicarriers and then the obvious uprising of Hydra within Shield's ranks that makes him not trust organizations, because as he says in Civil War when the Accords are brought to them, organizations have agendas and he would rather trust himself/The Avengers than a government entity anymore.
Meanwhile, Tony Stark, who went from defying everyone by announcing "I am Iron Man" at the end of his first movie, and continuing to develop more tech, more suits, being a solo hothead, and his mistakes start catching up to him, realizes that they need more accountability and wants that structure and organization, which is a complete 180.
The place both of those characters started and ended are dramatically different.
Tony was clearly in the wrong, but Zemo had specifically orchestrated for him to find out the information about his parents' death at the worst possible time under extreme duress. Yeah, Steve should have told him, and under better conditions, I think it might have gone over okay. But Tony flew off the handle, and it bit him in the ass, because it directly broke up the Avengers. Flash forward to Infinity War when he's going out into space solo to save Strange with a stowaway Spider-Man, if the Avengers were still together and had gone with them to meet up with Thanos on Titan, they would've gotten that gauntlet off 100% because they are a better team than the mix-up of Guardians and Tony/Pete/Strange. It's irony that the reason they lost the fight was because Quill lost his head over the knowledge of Gamora's death, to which Tony pleads with him to cool it. Full circle right there.
Take a Stand is the best MCU theme after the Avengers one for me.
I don't see how you can say that if you've watched all the movies.
With First Avenger he's an underdog that's willing to do whatever it takes to serve his country and fight bad guys overseas and does his patriotic duty. Then through the events in Avengers that Shield is using hydra weaponry, something he sacrificed himself for back in the day so those weapons wouldn't be used again, while that information being hidden from him, he starts to doubt. In Winter Soldier, it comes to a head with Fury and the helicarriers and then the obvious uprising of Hydra within Shield's ranks that makes him not trust organizations, because as he says in Civil War when the Accords are brought to them, organizations have agendas and he would rather trust himself/The Avengers than a government entity anymore.
Meanwhile, Tony Stark, who went from defying everyone by announcing "I am Iron Man" at the end of his first movie, and continuing to develop more tech, more suits, being a solo hothead, and his mistakes start catching up to him, realizes that they need more accountability and wants that structure and organization, which is a complete 180.
The place both of those characters started and ended are dramatically different.
Stark hasn't been a war profiteer for the majority of his time screen. It's a plot point in Iron Man and Iron Man 2. That's why his company has taken a hit, and he's been investing in new energy sources - like in Avengers. You're confusing him with Obadiah Stane. Stark's gone though more than a "little whimpering" - that's cold, considering how damaged his psyche has been over the MCU. Unlike Cap who thinks introspection has something to do with washing laundry.
And as was also pointed out, he continues to make the same sorts of mistakes over and over again. If he is introspective, he makes incredlible baby steps after each moment of such.
Like I'm aware, man practically has PTSD after the first Avengers. But, he's a fictional character, and outside of that, it doesn't absolve him of continuing to make mistakes.
However, like I also said, I'm a bit biased I suppose- I never liked him. Not in Iron-Man 1, not in Iron-Man 2, and I only saw 3 out of obligation to the rest of the MCU. I admit he's a better character now but I just... am not fond of him. Don't hate him perse, either, but... Like, cocky assholes can be fun, but they can also be really annoying, and for me, he falls into that camp for a lot of his screentime. Really hope the speculation of either Rhodey or Pepper replacing him as Iron Man after a heroic sacrifice in Endgame comes to fruition. In part because I'm just tired of Tony Stark, in part because it'd actually kind of actually redeem his character in his eyes.
Except Stark isn't repeating those mistakes, he made other ones because the guy's not perfect. It's what makes him human and relatable. Unlike Steve, who never learns or grows from anything - unless it's about hating the government or being paranoid, then he's good to go. It took half the universe dying to get him to acknowledge he fucked up.
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Even as an obsessively comic book reading kid, I had an unconscious aversion to the stereotypical, lantern jawed hero archetype. I had little to no patience for your Hal Jordans or Barry Allens. But the movie Captain America caused me to appreciate the character in a way I never had before. While I was never a huge Captain America kid growing up, the movies lent him a sense of vulnerability that has made him the heart of the MCU movies in my mind.
Thanks I really enjoyed this. Now Youtube is giving me a bunch of suggestions for Captain America montages. They all have the kind of inspirational titles you might find on bathroom wall art like "I'll Be There". And they're all basically the same lol
On Cap's side, it's not a a dramatic change to me. He's still the same character at his core just tweaked a bit. That's why I did start with saying he's had character development but he's stagnant regardless because it's kinda small-time.
The movies did a wonderful job at making him such an amazing character and Evans did a perfect job in portraying said character. Going to miss him so much.
I mean while yes you can say it's Tony's fault she has powers. It is her powers that pushed Tony to create Ultron by putting that vision of all of them dying into his head. Also why do people forget that Banner was right there, side by side with Tony in making Ultron.
Tony had nothing to do with how she got powers, that was HYDRA.
When I responded to that post who said It was his fault, I assume the fact that they mention that it was Stark tech bombs that were used on their homeland that led them to agree to the experiments.
I still wouldn't pin the blame on Stark for that. How the twins came to that conclusion was when they were children, an irrational mindset based purely on emotion without context. They never seemed to bother figuring out who did drop those bombs, what their motives were, how it applied to the implied civil war in their country in that time period or giving them a visit once they got super-powers. Their logic for getting revenge never got over seeing the name Stark on a missile. They're hypocrites, as well. They don't shed a tear for the victims HYDRA and Ultron are responsible for before and after their face heel turn.
How are niggas riding with Stark in 2019
He fucked up so bad with Age of Ultron that he almost got the planet destroyed and then turned it around and threw it in everyone else's face on that "we need to be put in check" shit. Starts tap dancing for Ross and gets the Avengers locked up on property damage. Spies on teenagers to make them assets for him and kicks them to the curb after. Damn near kills Bucky because he's not over his childhood trauma yet despite nobody else in the MCU awarded sympathy this level of emotional immaturity. It was funny how fast checks and due process went out the window when it was HIS shit.
This is all post war monger alcoholic Stark btw.
This would be all well and good but this man barely got checked for any of this shit. It borders on just not being particularly great character writing. He never has to learn anything at all or face serious consequences until Thanos sits his ass down in Infinity War and I'm sure Tony will get his there too.
Cap's got his bullshit too and we'll get to that in another post but he's better than Stark 100%
He fucked up so bad with Age of Ultron that he almost got the planet destroyed and then turned it around and threw it in everyone else's face on that "we need to be put in check" shit. Starts tap dancing for Ross and gets the Avengers locked up on property damage. Spies on teenagers to make them assets for him and kicks them to the curb after. Damn near kills Bucky because he's not over his childhood trauma yet despite nobody else in the MCU awarded sympathy this level of emotional immaturity. It was funny how fast checks and due process went out the window when it was HIS shit.
This is all post war monger alcoholic Stark btw.
This would be all well and good but this man barely got checked for any of this shit. It borders on just not being particularly great character writing. He never has to learn anything at all or face serious consequences until Thanos sits his ass down in Infinity War and I'm sure Tony will get his there too.
Cap's got his bullshit too and we'll get to that in another post but he's better than Stark 100%
Your original point is stupid though.
1. Bucky did not do what he did of his own free will.
2. Bucky was making efforts to disengage from the situation to prevent violence.
3. Tony was teamed up on because he was the aggressor.
What's your opinion on HYDRA flunky and Ultron devotee, Scarlet Witch?
You're omitting how the Accords and Ross are operating above Stark in governmental authority, and that it was ether doing what they say or they get put in prison. That's how he was trying to save the Avengers. Cap's plan was to...be a fugitive? Not a lift a finger about the Accords, which only worked in his favour due to the director's letting it slide to focus on Thanos, completely rendering Cap's worries over the Accords as an over reaction not based in reality. That "luck" helped in AoU, as well, every civilian would have died had Fury not evacuated them (which was something he hasn't planned for) and SHIELD itself was disbanded on Cap's orders. Rather than learn from this mistake, Cap simply shrugs it off and it's never bought up again.
No-one is arguing how Stark used Parker was right, that's the whole point of that arc.
Stark working for the Accords was working with consequences, so was the Avengers dividing (not completely, but he played a big role with Cap).
Your completely ignores Cap's mistakes, which had horrific consequences over several films - and all he did was buckle down rather than change. Making the Avengers fugitives, while he had nothing to lose. Not doing anything remotely about the Accords in any capacity to help the Avengers or other Enhanced. Becoming a fugitive himself to save Bucky, risking his life to bring back Bucky back in Winter Soldier (which could have ended up with him dead), Lagos, Cap never reached out to Stark either but it's Stark who bears all that weight in IW, had Cap explained to Stark about his parents deaths Zemo's plan would have failed.
Unlike Cap, Stark hasn't got directors looking out for him, like that. He gets shit from everyone, regardless of what he did or didn't do. Stark has plenty of bad mistakes, and he's answered for them - meanwhile, Cap hasn't answered for anything he got wrong. How is that any better than Stark?
Banner gets a pass because he was at least open about his doubts and also about keeping everyone else in the dark about it
Whattttt, Mackie is ace as Falcon and criminally underused IMO. His potential TV Show with Bucky is going to be great.
Not quite. Vulture and his team become who they are because of Stark profiting from the mess created during the NY battle in Avengers.
That's not war profiteering, it was containing valuable technology that could be exploited by bad actors in the community. Vulture being the example of this in action.
And there's no money in sweeping up advanced alien technology and sticking it into a warehouse somewhere. That's the opposite of "war profiteering".
Cap is not wrong for calling to dismantle shield after it was revealed that they were fucking nazis. That was overwhelmingly the right call and he had no way of knowing they would need one of their vehicles years after the fact to evacuate a floating.
"Luck" is Tony making Ultron twice and it working the second time. It's Tony not losing out on his relationship after repeatedly failing to consider his partner's feelings and safety. It's Tony Stark being THE central figure in Thanos's defeat in a world of Gods.
Cap is shown to be willing to negotiate the accords until Wanda's freedom is called into question. He's willing to have Bucky taken in alive and evaluated until the psychologist turns out to be a plant. He made compromises and they screwed him.
He didn't make the Avengers fugitives: they're all adults who chose what to do on their own accord. The accords were that disagreeable from the start. At the very least he doesn't omit information to get kids to come help him.
By the time he realizes what's going on in Infinity War Tony was in space and Banner had the phone. Only Tony was in the position to call and he did not.
Baffling how theres no talk about his actual biggest mistake: not efficiently disabling crossbones. Put Wanda in an impossible position. Not enough attention was called to that imo.
But he profited from it. It's literally said in Homecoming.
Call it cleanup for reasons of keeping the tech away from bad people (contracts were given to companies to do this very job) but Stark Industries gained at least 2 things. Money and tech.
Cap is a gift. He is the best Avenger. He has remained true to his promise that he made pre-serum; to be a "good man".
He's not just a good man, though, he is quite literally, the best man.
Also he stopped a Helicopter taking off with is bare hands. Oh lawd!
Only Ant-Man comes close to being as wholesome.
He's not just a good man, though, he is quite literally, the best man.
Also he stopped a Helicopter taking off with is bare hands. Oh lawd!
Only Ant-Man comes close to being as wholesome.
This is all true. It also always makes me think of how silly Mjolnir is.
That nebulous worthiness that apparently Thor holds when even after the first Thor he's still clearly less selfless and pure than Cap or even Scott are.
(Thor's fucking great now though so who cares)
Indeed. And he does this in a world that makes it so easy just to throw his hands up and submit to the external forces around him. Instead he's totally steadfast to his promise of doing the right thing even at great personal cost.
I legit believed they were going to make Cap suck butts in the MCU, but to make him this fantastic, this endearing, this believable... it's a real feat, especially considering the number of hands he's passed through in terms of writers and directors. For me, he's the absolute standout best thing the MCU has achieved - to deliver on that promise of the ideal of Captain America without being cheesy or overly-sentimental (and completely devoid of flag-waving bullshit!). It's wonderful and a real impossibility to follow up. Not sure even Carol is going to be able to stand up to his legacy.
There is a difference in war profiteering and making profit on something right? Just b/c a battle happened and you make a profit on the clean up doesn't mean you're war profiteering. These are two distinct ideas.
You absolve Steve with a throw away line. This is why Steve couldn't lift the hammer. He knew, he had every chance to tell Tony and he didn't. Tony reacts the way probably 99.99% of humanity would react upon finding out a friend, someone you've been working with in close proximity to for a long time knew who killed your parents, didn't tell you and then you find out by watching them being choked until death.
Rewatch Infinity War and tell me how any other member of the Avengers would have been able to go along. Even if Cap, Clint, Hawkeye, and Natasha were in NY, how were any of them getting on to the space ship in the matter of 10 minutes the scene takes place?
You're right, full circle, people lose control when they find out their loved ones were murdered.
And no, I'm not Tony > Steve. I think the MCU has written them both really well and they both have their faults. It's one of the reasons I love the MCU, both characters have been fantastic.
Disagree. With out Banner, Ultron is never made. He might have had reservations but he went right along with it. And most of the discussions on here and the rest I see on the internet don't give Banner a pass, they put Ultron squarely on Tony. I was happy when Bruce even referenced this in IW, saying that part of him was in Ultron.
Not that I was the first to joke about about Bucky and Steve jumping Tony, but this motherfucker really stole my posts wholesale from here. Even used the exact same gif.
Oh God. They are going to Superman him aren't they? Make his character irrelevant to strengthen others.😒
Oh, come on. It's not Cap's fault. I think he was about to agree with Banner came up with his alternative. But to say that Cap's responsible for the snap is just ludicrous.
...Y'all do realize that while Captain America is more right than Iron Man, they're both pretty much in the wrong for that final fight in Civil War right? Both are at fault here and throughout the whole movie, that's the point of civil war. Between Tony and Chris, there isn't supposed to be a "bad guy". There's definitely a wrong side (Tony) but he isn't evil like some of you are trying to make him. It's not solely Tony's fault. It's the fallout of two people, both of which cause it.
Steve is learning and growing in different ways than most of the characters. He was never the douche Stark was so he's never had to make that leap.
Cap is a total hypocrite as Vision pointed out: Cap was willing to die to save countless people and Vision was willing to do the very same thing. Both scenarios are completely different though. Him not willing to succumb to fear and just off Vision off the bat isn't all that bad. They have stopped world ending threats before so I don't think I blame him for believing they could stop one on a universal level. Plus there are a ton of individual factors that caused them to lose so it's interesting to see which ones people like to focus on the most. Cap would easily lay his own life down for anyone who believes is worth fighting for, even Tony. I'm sure he acknowledges his mistake in Endgame, but I guarantee you he doesn't regret trying. Cap almost never reacts out of fear.
People don't like the super high integrity 24/7 and yeah it's boyscout shit. But what I like most about it is that it works in these movies without feeling way out of place and it bounces off the characters perfectly. One of his bff's is Widow who operates on a moral grey. It just goes to show you he doesn't just go around judging people either. He is literally just doing what he believes is right, doesn't mean he's always right though. But he's never one to have hidden motives and whatnot.
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I don't think killing vision works. He still got the time stone. If it was reversing 1 minute or reversing ~12 hours or however long since the first discussion. Thanos still would have been able to reverse it? Unless they sent his body and shards of the mind stone to the sun or something after?
