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Feb 1, 2018
4,945
Texas
Holy shit, I didn't know Natalie Portman agreed to the trilogy before even reading the script(s).

At the time it was a no brainer, obviously, but it certainly explains a lot.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,742
The tension in this documentary is genuinely overwhelming, that's why it is so fascinating even if you don't give a shit about SW. Lucas seemed like abusive father walking around house and other family members doing everything they could not to upset him.

Second thing is the absolutely baffling choice for young Anakin, that blonde kid not only was very good at acting but he looks like Hamill's little clone. Lloyd has shown lack of acting skills from the start and Lucas should have known where that would go.
 

Jencks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,477
It's stylistically designed to be that way, and you can't change that, but we can diminish the effects of it
 

Tom Nook

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,830
Yeah, it's shockingly open



DWXHvUaX4AAT5Es.jpg


Rick's reaction was really telling. LOL
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
47,443
"So here's why the final act is a fucking disaster and doesn't work at all."

"Shit. Well, it's too late to change it now."

- THE END -
 

Deleted member 81119

User-requested account closure
Banned
Sep 19, 2020
8,308
"It's like poetry; it rhymes" gets memed a lot but it is actually a wise notion and the correct direction for the franchise. They just happened to execute everything in the movie horribly.
The broad plot of the prequel trilogy is amazing, and I'd say even better than the original trilogy. The execution however, is awful.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
is this the same doc on the DVD? if so it's amazing

if so how much did Rick McCallum show his ass?
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,802
I loved The Phantom Menace and I will forever die on this hill. The only weak prequel movie was Attack of the Clones, and even that had some great parts to it.
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,677
This one took real guts to put out. I respect it. Love revisiting it.

One of my favorite moments is Spielberg visiting the set in Italy and he and George are talking about the B1 Battledroids and he's waxing poetic about how great the final battle will be saying it'll be like War and Peace. And both of them say to each other "it'll be great" like 7 times in quick succession. My friends and I quote that all the time.

I do agree though, OP. Lucas really did have the best intentions here and clearly was super jazzed and passionate about it. The execution wasn't perfect but eh... I still have fun watching the film.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Holy shit, I didn't know Natalie Portman agreed to the trilogy before even reading the script(s).

At the time it was a no brainer, obviously, but it certainly explains a lot.

Pretty sure none of the actors got a script before accepting. It was the movie every actor wanted to be in, so saying yes was a no brainer at the time.

This is a very different time though (mid-late 1990s) when Lucas' authority as a master storyteller was unquestioned.
 

gholas

Member
Nov 13, 2020
482
I've always felt it was the closest to a competent movie. It was terrible, but it could have worked if a few things went differently.

I don't know how easy it is to find these days but The Phantom Edit shows that there is an actual good movie in there. It's amazing how much better it is and I would highly recommend it to anyone willing to give this movie another chance.
 
Dec 26, 2017
120
I think remembering the time when the movie was made is really important, because back then the idea of a movie with visual effects in every shot was super ambitious. I love the part when they're going through the storyboards shot-by-shot and Lucas is highlighting which bits of each shot will be real or not.

At the same time, it's clear that everyone had to go with what Lucas wanted on every decision along the way, which led to the movie we got (which I still enjoy, mind you). At least he knew the story he wanted to tell; I respect that.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,071
Yeah it really is a fascinating documentary and I wish we got more like this. Though the fact that it's turned into a meme farm and a way to hate on the creators on the movie, it's pretty easy to see why we won't.

Also whilst I think it's interesting and the movies are obviously flawed I still love going back and watching them and generally I like what they did for the SW universe.
 

Druffmaul

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 24, 2018
2,228
I think remembering the time when the movie was made is really important, because back then the idea of a movie with visual effects in every shot was super ambitious. I love the part when they're going through the storyboards shot-by-shot and Lucas is highlighting which bits of each shot will be real or not.

At the same time, it's clear that everyone had to go with what Lucas wanted on every decision along the way, which led to the movie we got (which I still enjoy, mind you). At least he knew the story he wanted to tell; I respect that.

I remember the night in 1994 when I was hanging out at a bar where all my friends went, and one of them came up to me all excited. "Dude! Didja hear??? George Lucas just announced he's making another trilogy! Prequels, young Obi Wan and Anakin and shit! The first one's gonna be out in 1997! Can you believe this shit?! Finally!" I liked the prequels, but I if I'm honest I guess I have to admit they didn't quite live up to the major high I felt in that moment.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Yeah it really is a fascinating documentary and I wish we got more like this. Though the fact that it's turned into a meme farm and a way to hate on the creators on the movie, it's pretty easy to see why we won't.

Also whilst I think it's interesting and the movies are obviously flawed I still love going back and watching them and generally I like what they did for the SW universe.
it and apocalypse now got amazing docs, shame nothing came close
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
as if he's not to blame…

I mean in all honesty he's not. It's really not the job of the producer to tell the director how to direct or what to change in their script or how to edit the movie.

Their job is to get what the director's vision is on the screen and to do it within the budget and scheduled amount of time, which is in and of itself an exhausting task.

The idea that the producer needed to stop Lucas from doing XYZ is just not realistic.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
I mean in all honesty he's not. It's really not the job of the producer to tell the director how to direct or what to change in their script or how to edit the movie.

Their job is to get what the director's vision is on the screen and to do it within the budget and scheduled amount of time, which is in and of itself an exhausting task.

The idea that the producer needed to stop Lucas from doing XYZ is just not realistic.
if disagree, the producer is the film maker and controls the director, though i understands george's set might have been different
 

ProtomanNeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,190
It's good but the book really sheds light on a what was going on and the decisions that were made.
I'll always be in awe of what Lucas was able to accomplish at varying degrees of success (or failure). Making a film, or trilogy of films as an independent filmmaker and having to be concerned with running a company is difficult to say the least.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
if disagree, the producer is the film maker and controls the director, though i understands george's set might have been different

That's not really how thing's work (and it's really not how things should work) on a movie set. It's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, the director is the one in charge and it's the job of everyone else to work to the vision that they want.

Otherwise movies would take 24 months to get made, time and money is precious, you can't have 4 people on set arguing about what the scene they're shooting that day should be about.

When a movie set reaches that point, it's head towards a giant disaster and this is also disheartening to actors and crew ... they've been up since 6 AM and in the actor's case maybe in make up for an hour to two hours ... they want to step onto set and be told be one person what they are doing. Not told 5 different things by the producer, cinematographer, director, first AD, etc. etc.

That is a disaster if that happens. When it's time to shoot one person (the director) needs to know what they are shooting, what the intention of every scene is, how they want that shot (in a general sense) and then maybe the cinematographer gives some input on the practicality of certain shots. There is some back and forth with the actors who mainly want to know what they're doing in the scene and why. It's not the producer's job to go "oh wait, why don't we try making this scene funny? Or maybe this character shoots this other guy" or something, lol.
 

RedVejigante

Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,676
They're more often assigned to special releases ie Criterion or trickled through promotional material

Alas, the glory days of on-disc bonus features are indeed gone
I still treasure my copy of Del Toro's Hellboy, which was packed with such a stupid amount of content, including multiple commentary tracks, as well as one commentary track that had a picture-in-picture video of the cast recording their commentary track for the movie, for some reason. But yeah, those days are long gone.
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
This might be one of the most quotable documentaries and maybe even just general movies I've ever seen

I have Rick McCallum saying "it's so dense, every single image has so many things going on" burned into my brain. (I think it's from this?)
It sums up so much about how media has changed and is still changing.

IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT
 
Last edited:

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
47,443
Commentary tracks have kind of gone away with the streaming age, haven't they? Bit of a shame

Yup. Bonus features too. All that shit was ignored when big streaming came in and took over.

And I don't understand why. How hard could it be to add the commentary tracks? Do I really need to dig up my Simpsons DVDs if I want to hear the commentary?

The lack of a making of TROS documentary is pretty telling

It exists, but in typical Disney fashion, everything is presented as this rosy, wonderful experience, film is magic, nothing went wrong!
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,071
Yup. Bonus features too. All that shit was ignored when big streaming came in and took over.

And I don't understand why. How hard could it be to add the commentary tracks? Do I really need to dig up my Simpsons DVDs if I want to hear the commentary?

Also seems like a decent way to pad out content when you want people to stay subscribed to your streaming service.

Would LOTR get the same behind the scenes stuff today as it did when it was made? Shit provides hours and hours of great content to keep people engaged and it's cheap and easy too. Kinda surprised streaming services don't want this stuff.
 

Will Law

Member
Feb 5, 2021
790
The funniest part is the other kid who auditioned for Anakin did a way better read than Jake Lloyd but Lucas chose Llyod (no offense to him).

Would you like to know more? There was a great mini doc put out last fall about the kid they didn't choose:
youtu.be

In a Galaxy Far, Far Away, I Was Almost Anakin Skywalker | 'Almost Famous' by Op-Docs

It was the late 1990s, and 3,000 young actors around the world were scouted for the role of a lifetime. On the ride home from school, Devon Michael’s mom tol...
 

Mobius 1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,187
North Point, Osean Federation
Would you like to know more? There was a great mini doc put out last fall about the kid they didn't choose:
youtu.be

In a Galaxy Far, Far Away, I Was Almost Anakin Skywalker | 'Almost Famous' by Op-Docs

It was the late 1990s, and 3,000 young actors around the world were scouted for the role of a lifetime. On the ride home from school, Devon Michael’s mom tol...

Dodged a bullet, in the end. Poor Jake Lloud paid a heavy price for being cast due to the toxic fandom.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Would you like to know more? There was a great mini doc put out last fall about the kid they didn't choose:
youtu.be

In a Galaxy Far, Far Away, I Was Almost Anakin Skywalker | 'Almost Famous' by Op-Docs

It was the late 1990s, and 3,000 young actors around the world were scouted for the role of a lifetime. On the ride home from school, Devon Michael’s mom tol...

Holy crap, that kid looks so different as an adult, haha. As a kid he was a dead ringer for a Mark Hamill family member.
 

ProtomanNeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,190
In my opinion most, if not all of the problems with Phantom Menace stem from its transformation from when it was just called Star Wars: The Beginning. That was definitely a stronger film if it would have been made. Taking that script and trying to make it into a kids movie, which makes sense from a Buisiness standpoint, I understand why Lucas did it resulted in a film that's a little all over the place.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
In my opinion most, if not all of the problems with Phantom Menace stem from its transformation from when it was just called Star Wars: The Beginning. That was definitely a stronger film if it would have been made. Taking that script and trying to make it into a kids movie, which makes sense from a Buisiness standpoint, I understand why Lucas did it resulted in a film that's a little all over the place.


The movie's problems are more baked into the script, it isn't just "well they needed a better director", the script is just poorly written. Like for starters it doesn't really have a clear main character (protagonist) for the audience to follow.

Darth Maul should kill Qui-Gon early in the movie and now Obi-Wan is left as a green Jedi padawan who is thrown into a life and death situation trying to prevent the Queen from getting killed. They barely make it off Naboo by the skin of their teeth and crash land onto Tatooine. Young Obi-Wan is in way over his head and learning how to be a Jedi Master on the fly in a do or die situation. He discovers Anakin in the process but also is wrestling with his own inner turmoil as he wants revenge on Maul who is hunting them like a hawk.

There you go. Clear setup. Clear main character. Clear emotional journey for the audience (a young Jedi to be who's thrown into an intense intergalatic situation and wrestling with his feelings of revenge and temptation from the dark side). And Anakin and Obi-Wan should start their relationship as two characters right from this movie, instead of basically that being put on hold until Episode 2.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,735
TPM has inadvertently wound up being my most watched Star Wars movie due to a lot of abandoned "let's watch them all in a row" marathons. I actually… like it a lot? It's certainly flawed but it throws a bunch of stuff out there that's at least interesting and unique, and there's some really great bits in there too (I personally love the whole final battle).

The broad plot of the prequel trilogy is amazing, and I'd say even better than the original trilogy. The execution however, is awful.

That's sort of the appeal of Clone Wars. With George getting filtered through Filoni and friends you basically get the story the prequels could have been.
 

NeoBob688

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,661
This documentary is amazing and a classic because it is so unfiltered and raw. This kind of "real" look at major projects just doesn't exist anymore. And it is funny as fuck too. "Jar-Jar is the key to all of this" (said non-sarcastically)
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
TPM has inadvertently wound up being my most watched Star Wars movie due to a lot of abandoned "let's watch them all in a row" marathons. I actually… like it a lot? It's certainly flawed but it throws a bunch of stuff out there that's at least interesting and unique, and there's some really great bits in there too (I personally love the whole final battle).



That's sort of the appeal of Clone Wars. With George getting filtered through Filoni and friends you basically get the story the prequels could have been.

An interesting little tidbit from the massive Making of Return of the Jedi book I remember reading was George back in 1983 even gave his outline of what he had for the prequels, and it basically was exactly what's in Episode III.

So I think he had Episode III all along, but he really didn't have a clue what to do with Episode I or II other than to introduce characters and take up time until Episode III starts.
 

ProtomanNeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,190
The movie's problems are more baked into the script, it isn't just "well they needed a better director", the script is just poorly written. Like for starters it doesn't really have a clear main character (protagonist) for the audience to follow.

Darth Maul should kill Qui-Gon early in the movie and now Obi-Wan is left as a green Jedi padawan who is thrown into a life and death situation trying to prevent the Queen from getting killed. They barely make it off Naboo by the skin of their teeth and crash land onto Tatooine. Young Obi-Wan is in way over his head and learning how to be a Jedi Master on the fly in a do or die situation. He discovers Anakin in the process but also is wrestling with his own inner turmoil as he wants revenge on Maul who is hunting them like a hawk.

There you go. Clear setup. Clear main character. Clear emotional journey for the audience (a young Jedi to be who's thrown into an intense intergalatic situation and wrestling with his feelings of revenge and temptation from the dark side). And Anakin and Obi-Wan should start their relationship as two characters right from this movie, instead of basically that being put on hold until Episode 2.


That is clear and what Lucas originally had was pretty clear. Obi-Wan is definitely the main character in the early draft/s with Qui-Gon appearing but not till much later in the script as support. Much of the stuff that Qui-Gon does was originally Obi-Wan doing by himself. And Anakin is 13-14 years old, which works better from a mythological standpoint.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
That is clear and what Lucas originally had was pretty clear. Obi-Wan is definitely the main character in the early draft/s with Qui-Gon appearing but not till much later in the script as support. Much of the stuff that Qui-Gon does was originally Obi-Wan doing by himself. And Anakin is 13-14 years old, which works better from a mythological standpoint.

I mean then why did he go away from this?

Like Obi-Wan being the main character should have been a no brainer. I have Darth Maul murder Qui-Gon right in the first 15 minutes right in front of Obi-Wan to get that blood pumping, get the damn story moving. I like you Liam Neeson, but you gots to go, this story needs to start.

Obi-Wan's not ready for this. He thought he was, but this is too much, too soon. A Sith Lord? His training is more in theory. He's doubting himself. He's stuck on this godforsaken desert planet hiding with a Queen that's being hunted and everyone's looking at him like he's supposed to know what to do. It's Die Hard on the run. And on top of that he wants to find that mofo that killed his master and kill him, he feels a pull to the Dark Side ... is it right for a Jedi to feel this way? Oh and the Queen is kind of attractive and there's kind of a unspoken romantic chemistry between them even though they are snapping at each other (which can create a nice dynamic between the 3 where Anakin is always sort of jealous of them even though Padme insists nothing ever happened later on).

You know just get some juice, some life, some drama into this for starters. The movie was just so life less.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,429
The English Wilderness
Always wondered if Lucas realised too late that starting with child Anakin was actually a terrible mistake, because there was no way to tell the rest of his story in two movies without them suffering, too.

(To be fair, I'm not sure even starting with AotC, and having something like the Clone Wars as Ep.2 would have worked, either...)
 

Santar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,170
Norway
Yeah it's a great documentary. You get to follow the whole process from beginning to the end. The best part is it doesn't feel like a fluff piece just made to sell the movie it feels like a more neutral take on the making of the movie.
It's one of the best making of documentaries I've ever seen.
The only other two that comes close are:




According to Plan: The Making of 'Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest.
Which also felt like a honest view into what it took to make the first pirates sequel. They really had no idea what to do after the first movie.





Jodorowsky's Dune
A fantastic look into the movie that never was. Alejandro Jodorowsky's doomed adaptation of the book Dune. Probably the best documentary I've ever seen and a fantastic movie regardless of genre.
 

ProtomanNeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,190
I mean then why did he go away from this?

It seems, at least based on the changes that were made from that original script it was for merchandising / marketing reasons. He seemed to be trying to in his eyes make the film more kid friendly. Which, if you're trying to sell a bunch of merchandising tie ins makes sense. Which in turns makes sense especially, if your company just had to hire a bunch of artists, technicians and buy a bunch of new state of the art gear.