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Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,094
I think John Oliver isn't really suited to playing the sort of stuffy, pompous buffoon that is Zazu compared to Atkinson. He's an animated fellow but I think that works against him for a role like this.

Yeah, a big part of what makes Atkinson's Zazu so funny during this song is that he moves slowly from being haughtily demeaning towards Simba to being incredibly angry, but still trying (and failing) to hold it together and maintain his pompous demeanor even though he's clearly let Simba get under his skin.

I think that Oliver could have pulled this off, but it doesn't seem like he had any direction. From the clip, it's just him reading the lines with his British accent.
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,854
I think a lot of folks in this thread are overestimating how much the general public values 2D animation/design. If its a cartoon/has a cartoon aesthetic most people won't see it or automatically put it in the "kids genre" ghetto. The fact that its so hyper realistic will be a draw for people because it makes it more "serious/adult/legitimate" etc.

This will probably be another situation where film twitter mercilessly dunk on the movie while general audiences eat it up.
Pretty much, a lot of people dismissed Spiderverse because it was animation :/
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
I think a lot of folks in this thread are overestimating how much the general public values 2D animation/design. If its a cartoon/has a cartoon aesthetic most people won't see it or automatically put it in the "kids genre" ghetto. The fact that its so hyper realistic will be a draw for people because it makes it more "serious/adult/legitimate" etc.

This will probably be another situation where film twitter mercilessly dunk on the movie while general audiences eat it up.

Into the Spiderverse suffered from that idiotic perspective. I had people tell me they weren't going to see it because it's "a cartoon", or that it "won't be as good as the live action ones". Lunatics lol.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,215
I hate people defending the look of this movie with the 'but it's supposed to look realistic!' argument.

Here's a screenshot from Planet Earth II, a documentary series:

1478272206-planet-earth-ii-pygmy-sloth.jpg


Desaturated colors =/= realism

This comment sums it up nicely



LOL! Why would you give them some kind of facial movements to elicit emotions?? It looks so bizarre.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Seems divisive so far. The criticisms about the photoreal approach are valid, but I am completely baffled how negative the reaction has been here compared to the same realistic render for Jungle Book. That movie is at 93% on RT and a skim of the reviews shows lavish praise for the lifelike animals.

I obviously havent seen TLK but Im curious how an identical approach from the same director can leave one movie soulless and the other fantastic
Probably helps the original Jungle Book is not as recent and beloved, but also it was far less of a musical relying on a lot of emoting. The comparisons of the songs side by side certainly seem damning. One has the cartoons swimming, cavorting around, constantly changing framing... and the other is just them walking through a forest.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,581
Seattle, WA

Having seen the movie, I can confirm I nearly laughed out loud in the press screening at this scene.

The film is absolutely plagued with dead-eye issues due to its source material, and new voice actors, being so locked to the charismatic and cartoony original. If Favreau made this as a wholly new story that played out like fantasy Planet Earth, where realistically rendered animals could be placed anywhere the director wants with insane camera angles, I think it'd be awesome. But the playfulness and likability of the Jungle Earth isn't quite here.

(My review, if you're curious: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...ring-visuals-but-the-execution-is-a-hairball/ )
 

GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,784
The Netherlands
I liked it a lot. It doesn't hold a candle to the original, but it's a beautifully made take on a classic movie. And it sure as hell looks way better in the theater than that Hakuna Matata comparison on the last page. It's not even synced properly there.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
I think the distinction here is that the CGI actively works against the characterization and the story they're trying to tell. They're trying to tell a hyper-emotional story with characters that literally cannot emote and voice actors who are deliberately giving out subdued, restrained performances because of this.

The story they're trying to tell simply does not function effectively with the visual style they're using to tell it. They could've made the realistic CGI animals emote more and it would've been way, way more effective at telling this story.

I don't disagree with you but I think you're giving general audiences way too much credit. People will take/prefer a subpar realistic product over a superior stylized one( Venom vs Spider-Verse). At least in the states the bias/insecurity towards stylized stuff is just too ingrained at this point. Just look at some of reaction to the Links Awakening remake . Its probably why Disney is pushing this as a "Live Action" remake because they know it'll get a wider audience to see it.

I don't understand how people at Disney didn't look at this and go, "...yeah this doesn't work at all."
Disney was told this explicitly. Julie Taymor flat out said this isn't going to work. The animals need to be stylized and emote like people.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
I liked it a lot. It doesn't hold a candle to the original, but it's a beautifully made take on a classic movie. And it sure as hell looks way better in the theater than that Hakuna Matata comparison on the last page. It's not even synced properly there.
Did you have any problems with the expression of the faces and the moving of the mouths? That is for me the most critical.
 

HammerOfThor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,860
What a bummer. Maybe I'll just show my son the bluray or the original this weeking instead of wasting money on this.
 

GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,784
The Netherlands
Did you have any problems with the expression of the faces and the moving of the mouths? That is for me the most critical.
You know, it's all about the mouths. Animal mouths, especially lion mouths, just don't move and behave like human mouths do. So when they use animal mouths to produce human speech, it just doesn't look right. It looks super realistic and absolutely gorgeous, but as soon as they start to talk it just breaks the illusion that you're watching 'real' talking lions (as dumb as that sounds, haha). There are shots where Simba looks sad or happy, sure, but you just won't get the same expressions you get in the original movie, because that would look super unrealistic. I didn't have a problem with it myself, since I'd rather watch a movie with realistic looking animals than realistic looking animals with cartoony expressions, but I can understand why someone wouldn't feel that way. I'd say the animals look better (more realistic) than they did in Jungle Book, but maybe not as expressive.

I would honestly say that this movie is one of those cases where it's not necessarily worse, it's just a different take on the same thing. There were kids behind me that never saw the original who cried during the Mufasa death scene, and I watched the movie with my mom who saw the original like 100 times when I was a kid and later with my little brother, and she absolutely loved it and thought it was a beautiful movie even though she's so used to the original.
 

Housecat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
673
I just saw it and I really enjoyed it. I've been a fan of the original since I was 6, and I've watched it at least once a year since then. I can't even walk past any Disney Store without buying some stupid lion king merch. I even have tattoos! It's hard to describe how much I love the original so I didn't have super high hopes for this. I was pleasently surprised though.

The lip syncing is better than the trailers show. There is emotion, but not as cartoony and animated as the original. You have to look at the body language, there are a lot of small details. I wish they had shown more emotion in the eyes though, as that's sort of where the emotion was lacking. The worst part was definitely Beyoncés spirit and I did not like that song at all. Just didn't fit and the music for that scene in the original is great.

It doesn't get close to the original, but it was no where as bad as this thread made it out to be lol. Such a bitter thread! I liked the Jungle Book, hated Beauty and the Beast, but really enjoyed this one. I might be biased though, as anything that has the Lion King on it is automatically magical to me.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
Seems divisive so far. The criticisms about the photoreal approach are valid, but I am completely baffled how negative the reaction has been here compared to the same realistic render for Jungle Book. That movie is at 93% on RT and a skim of the reviews shows lavish praise for the lifelike animals.

I obviously havent seen TLK but Im curious how an identical approach from the same director can leave one movie soulless and the other fantastic

That's because they're not the same. The animals showcase far greater ranges of emotion than any clip I've seen so far from the Lion King. Compare Shere Khan in that film to any of the lions in this film.



I have no idea why they decided to not just emulate what they had working perfectly.
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
That's because they're not the same. The animals showcase far greater ranges of emotion than any clip I've seen so far from the Lion King. Compare Shere Khan in that film to any of the lions in this film.



I have no idea why they decided to not just emulate what they had working perfectly.

Favreau really lost the passion for this one compared to what he had for Jungle Book.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,322
I don't disagree with you but I think you're giving general audiences way too much credit. People will take/prefer a subpar realistic product over a superior stylized one( Venom vs Spider-Verse). At least in the states the bias/insecurity towards stylized stuff is just too ingrained at this point. Just look at some of reaction to the Links Awakening remake . Its probably why Disney is pushing this as a "Live Action" remake because they know it'll get a wider audience to see it.

What I'm saying though is that they could still have a realistic art style AND have the animals emote. You don't need to go full toon style for this. The fact that they made it a nature documentary with bland, bored dialogue plastered over it is the problem, not the fact that the animals look realistic.
 

Housecat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
673
What I'm saying though is that they could still have a realistic art style AND have the animals emote. You don't need to go full toon style for this. The fact that they made it a nature documentary with bland, bored dialogue plastered over it is the problem, not the fact that the animals look realistic.

They emote though and they definitely do things real animals wouldn't do. It's not like watching a nature documentary the whole time. Some shots sure, but most of them not.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
You know, it's all about the mouths. Animal mouths, especially lion mouths, just don't move and behave like human mouths do. So when they use animal mouths to produce human speech, it just doesn't look right. It looks super realistic and absolutely gorgeous, but as soon as they start to talk it just breaks the illusion that you're watching 'real' talking lions (as dumb as that sounds, haha). There are shots where Simba looks sad or happy, sure, but you just won't get the same expressions you get in the original movie, because that would look super unrealistic. I didn't have a problem with it myself, since I'd rather watch a movie with realistic looking animals than realistic looking animals with cartoony expressions, but I can understand why someone wouldn't feel that way. I'd say the animals look better (more realistic) than they did in Jungle Book, but maybe not as expressive.

I would honestly say that this movie is one of those cases where it's not necessarily worse, it's just a different take on the same thing. There were kids behind me that never saw the original who cried during the Mufasa death scene, and I watched the movie with my mom who saw the original like 100 times when I was a kid and later with my little brother, and she absolutely loved it and thought it was a beautiful movie even though she's so used to the original.
Thank you very much for your detailed post. Maybe I should still go see it.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
wait, when does Spirit play?

I like the song but its too pop for the movie itself, i thought it was a credits song lol
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
What I'm saying though is that they could still have a realistic art style AND have the animals emote. You don't need to go full toon style for this. The fact that they made it a nature documentary with bland, bored dialogue plastered over it is the problem, not the fact that the animals look realistic.
I honestly think Favreau/Disney intentionally kept the emoting/color restrained so they could sell/trick general audiences on the fact that this is a "live action" remake and not just a CG animated film. If they moved away from the nature doc style in favor of something more colorful/emotive they risked scaring away that audience.

Its a gamble but Disney probably saw that the highest grossing animated film ever hasn't been able to crack 1.3 billion and was hoping this method would get more butts in the seats even if it alienated some purist.
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
Probably Jungle Book had to its advantage:
1) It wasn't a 1:1 remake
2) Musicals were the worst part, so they had few of them. 2, I think?
 

Acquila

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,162
Oh so that's the song. I was wondering why they'd use a pop song in the middle of the movie. It was such a downgrade from the original.
 

orochi91

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,789
Canada
That's because they're not the same. The animals showcase far greater ranges of emotion than any clip I've seen so far from the Lion King. Compare Shere Khan in that film to any of the lions in this film.



I have no idea why they decided to not just emulate what they had working perfectly.

In hindsight, this film handled CGI animals exceptionally well.

Khan was legit terrifying, lol
 

Housecat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
673

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I have to question if every person who says "it looks so realistic" has never looked outside in their life. You know there's color out there, right? And animals look like they are alive, it's pretty rad.
 

Housecat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
673
Holy shit I'm glad that idea was cut just that video made me feel icky

Yeah I can see why they changed it to Sarabi, but I don't really think it was needed at all. It is creepy but then again, Scar is creepy I guess. I don't think Scar needed anymore motivation than jealousy for his brother and just being powerhungry, so the Sarabi thing didn't really add anything useful to me.

They did change a few other things aswell, they sort of implied that Mufasa gave Scar his Scar, or at least that he had challenged him before? Which I sort of took as why Scar went for Mufasa's eye before throwing him to his death.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
Hmmm... just watched it. i kinda loved it. Totally on board with the "realistic" / Not overly stylized visuals.

But i guess i'm a person who assigns personalities and emotions to every animal i encounter, so i didnt run into the issue of feeling like the characters were unemotive and lifeless. (But i can see where people who feel like that are coming from)
What the characters lacked in "expression" they compensated with charming animal mannerisms.

Like, Pumbaa looked so freaking adorable...

In general, i was like "awwww!" 80% of the Movie
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
I have to question if every person who says "it looks so realistic" has never looked outside in their life. You know there's color out there, right? And animals look like they are alive, it's pretty rad.
Tbf cinematic realistic ≠ real world realistic. People just mean there is a higher level of visual fidelity and stuff looks a bit more "gritty". People said the Bourne films were 'realistic' but that's only relative to the language of film at the time. I don't think people are claiming this is Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk with lions.
 

FinKL

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,943
Having seen the movie, I can confirm I nearly laughed out loud in the press screening at this scene.

The film is absolutely plagued with dead-eye issues due to its source material, and new voice actors, being so locked to the charismatic and cartoony original. If Favreau made this as a wholly new story that played out like fantasy Planet Earth, where realistically rendered animals could be placed anywhere the director wants with insane camera angles, I think it'd be awesome. But the playfulness and likability of the Jungle Earth isn't quite here.

(My review, if you're curious: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...ring-visuals-but-the-execution-is-a-hairball/ )
I lol'd at "Someday this CGI Kingdom will be yours"

Disney really is pushing this movie hard to save the tepid summer. Saw an ABC special on the Lion King yesterday and my mind was blown all these actors provided voices for the movie. Donald Glover, Beyonce, Seth Rogan, and to top it all off directed by JON FAVREAU , you think that's a recipe for greatness.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
In hindsight, this film handled CGI animals exceptionally well.

Khan was legit terrifying, lol




See with the Jungle Book the animals don't look 100% real. They have that fantasy look about them, that allows the voice acting to match the facial emotions without it looking off. Why the hell did they not just use the same technique without trying to look so real life, that they now can't emote the animals in a way that doesn't break the illusion?
 

GatsGatsby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,282
West Columbia, SC
Man those jungle book clips are making me respect that movie a lot more. I didnt really care about it when I saw it with my so it was just to placate him.

The jungle book animals do emote more than they realistically would but its not that bad. The two clips of Khan on here he emotes some but his stalking and body movement tell more than the slight facial emotes also you got Idris giving an amazing performance. I wish he would of been Scar at this point.
 

rezuth

Member
Nov 5, 2017
292
I liked it a lot but I think something was lost in the move to realistic CGI. The cast is better than the original but these realistic animals can't express emotion a conveying way. It just lacks the oumph that we as humans connect to. It's a solid 7/10 but it could've been so much more.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,910
Oh I just can't wait for this remake fad to be over.
You're gonna be waiting a while there bud. They've been happening for over a decade and only two performed poorly. With three (going on five) of them being billion sellers.

Man those jungle book clips are making me respect that movie a lot more. I didnt really care about it when I saw it with my so it was just to placate him.

The jungle book animals do emote more than they realistically would but its not that bad. The two clips of Khan on here he emotes some but his stalking and body movement tell more than the slight facial emotes also you got Idris giving an amazing performance. I wish he would of been Scar at this point.
EX-FREAKING-ACTLY! TJB is not only the most justified remake, it did it best. Corrected problems with the original story (ya know, actually giving it a plot and a villain that's a villain) and still keeping some of the charm of the original. Honestly I wish TLK and TJB were inverse in their direction on that subject.

It sucks seeing my second favorite movie of all time being given this "realistic" coat of paint when TJB was a perfectly good mix of realism and charm already. It boggles my mind that they had to use TLK as a test dummy.