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I basically avoided everything Last of Us as soon I heard there were leaks out there so my playthrough was basically blind. Like everyone else who finished the game, there was nothing more that I wanted to do than discuss the game with just about everyone.
And holy shit. The leaks and other shitholery has poisoned so much of peoples preconceived notions and the discourse around this game is frustrating. I fucking adored this game. But I'm a person who loves reading dissenting opinions or people who had different interpretations of events. So much of what i'm hearing is people seemingly arguing based on a set of bullet points that they read with zero context and nuance. It's refreshing when I find someone with a different opinion of the game that I can actually tell the person had first hand experienced with the game.
Like I was listening to the Giant Beastcast this morning and Abby (Abby from GB not TLOU, who I genuinely enjoy) is playing this game walking on eggshells because she is petrified that Abby (TLOU 2 Abby) is some bottom of the barrel representation of a trans character (seemingly she just started the Abby section of the game). Obviously, someone spoiled that there was a trans character in the game and almost assuredly they didn't provide the appropriate amount of context. So, I legit feel bad for Giantbomb Abby that she is going through this game with so many twists potentially spoiled and new characters are already colored by things she read by people who certainly did not have the best intentions.
It's also wild reading how many people adored Joel but hate Abby. Abby certainly has some serious motivations in this game! Like basically every character in the Last of Us universe, they're all operating in a "grey" area in a world full of absolute horror and devastation. For all, there's moments of joy, anger, love and sometimes acting hastily in a way that certainly might be at odds with how you might have hoped they'd try to solve a situation. Them acting as complex characters that have the ability to delight and also infuriate you at different aspects is fascinating as I love they aren't confined to some rigid archetype.
It's all just such a bummer. There are great conversations to be had about this game. But at this point, so many have been spoiled or have preconceived notions about what exactly this game is before experiencing it. Hopefully as time goes on, more will experience it in full (or at least give it an honest effort) where we can have the types of conversation around this game that aren't so reductive.
And holy shit. The leaks and other shitholery has poisoned so much of peoples preconceived notions and the discourse around this game is frustrating. I fucking adored this game. But I'm a person who loves reading dissenting opinions or people who had different interpretations of events. So much of what i'm hearing is people seemingly arguing based on a set of bullet points that they read with zero context and nuance. It's refreshing when I find someone with a different opinion of the game that I can actually tell the person had first hand experienced with the game.
Like I was listening to the Giant Beastcast this morning and Abby (Abby from GB not TLOU, who I genuinely enjoy) is playing this game walking on eggshells because she is petrified that Abby (TLOU 2 Abby) is some bottom of the barrel representation of a trans character (seemingly she just started the Abby section of the game). Obviously, someone spoiled that there was a trans character in the game and almost assuredly they didn't provide the appropriate amount of context. So, I legit feel bad for Giantbomb Abby that she is going through this game with so many twists potentially spoiled and new characters are already colored by things she read by people who certainly did not have the best intentions.
It's also wild reading how many people adored Joel but hate Abby. Abby certainly has some serious motivations in this game! Like basically every character in the Last of Us universe, they're all operating in a "grey" area in a world full of absolute horror and devastation. For all, there's moments of joy, anger, love and sometimes acting hastily in a way that certainly might be at odds with how you might have hoped they'd try to solve a situation. Them acting as complex characters that have the ability to delight and also infuriate you at different aspects is fascinating as I love they aren't confined to some rigid archetype.
It's all just such a bummer. There are great conversations to be had about this game. But at this point, so many have been spoiled or have preconceived notions about what exactly this game is before experiencing it. Hopefully as time goes on, more will experience it in full (or at least give it an honest effort) where we can have the types of conversation around this game that aren't so reductive.
I'm seeing a lot YT commentators saying that they don't care that Joel died, they cared how he died. But I honestly think no matter how he died, people would still be pissed.
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I feel like there hasn't been enough discussion of just how good some of the set piece moments were in this game, considering TLOU1 didn't really have anything like this I was surprised that they put in so many Uncharted style sequences and not only that but I think they were the best ND has ever done.
In particular I'd say my top 3 are:
- The horseback ride into Haven. Of all the moments my jaw was agape from the visuals in this game this one was the most impressive. From the moment you see the town in blazes in the distance to when you storm in through the gate into an active war zone it was breathtaking.
- The chase sequence with Abby in the beginning where they escape the horde. I feel like there weren't any moments like this in the first game where you are faced with an overwhelming number of infected so it was pretty effective at reestablishing them as a menacing threat early on.
- Hospital basement chase/boss. The boss itself is kind of an HP sponge but they did such a great job with the build up, atmosphere and monster design that this was a genuinely scary bit of horror.
In particular I'd say my top 3 are:
- The horseback ride into Haven. Of all the moments my jaw was agape from the visuals in this game this one was the most impressive. From the moment you see the town in blazes in the distance to when you storm in through the gate into an active war zone it was breathtaking.
- The chase sequence with Abby in the beginning where they escape the horde. I feel like there weren't any moments like this in the first game where you are faced with an overwhelming number of infected so it was pretty effective at reestablishing them as a menacing threat early on.
- Hospital basement chase/boss. The boss itself is kind of an HP sponge but they did such a great job with the build up, atmosphere and monster design that this was a genuinely scary bit of horror.
Yeah,but she is hated because she killed Joel and didn't show any remorse,even if that caused the death of all her friends,Ellie revenge tale was caused by her revenge.
I loved too,but in the end,they are all dead,it is the reason some people hated the final,because the most wanted was Abby and she was spared even if not felt remorse like the others,most of them just don't accept that or don't understand the message with that ending.
*raise hand*
Hey, that's me!
The first thing I saw that really got me interested in TLOU was the E3 2018 trailer for Part 2. It blew my mind. I don't know why, but even though the first TLOU always looked like the kind of game I would be interested in, I completely missed it on PS3.
So in preparation for Part 2 I played the whole Part 1 + Left Behind on PS4 earlier this year. It was such a great experience. I loved it. Ellie and Joel's journey made a deep impression on me. The ending was absolutely incredible, it broke my heart. And then Left Behind broke it some more.
It's worth noting that the E3 2018 trailer was basically the only thing I saw about Part 2 before playing it. As soon as the news sites began reporting the leaks, I stayed far away from anything that even remotely had to do with Part 2. I became aware of the controversy(ies) surrounding the game while reading about it only after having played the whole thing in its entirety. It's also a bit what made me register an account here on ResetEra because unfortunately, it currently seems to be the only place where it's still possible to have a fairly calm and intelligent conversation about the game.
Playing Part 2 took me about 4 days. I devoured it. I never played a game like this before (and I've been gaming all my life). I lost my dad only a few years ago, and the loss and grief themes presented throughout the game hit me pretty hard. It was physically painful to play at times. I never cried that much while playing a game before.
Joel's death was brutal, sickening, and painful. I hated it and it made me feel sick. But I honestly cannot understand the controversy about it. I loved my time with him in Part 1 as we really got to know the man, but his death made sense. And even more importantly, it's what made Part 2 have meanings. It's a huge part of what makes it so powerful. And honestly, what did you expect? We're talking about TLOU here, and Part 1 made pretty clear that it was a game speaking loudly and often about human brutality and its many consequences.
I also love that they made us retrace the steps of Ellie as Abby. I really hated her after the theater scene where she kills Jesse. And then you get to play as her. I wasn't really surprised by that since we briefly had to play as her before, but when I realized what was happening and that we would be playing as Abby for much longer than a quick chapter, I thought it was genius. I love that they did that, and it works SO well. I saw someone a few pages ago saying that this game as a whole could be considered a litmus test for empathy. I think it may be right.
Coming straight from Part 1 and Left Behind, Part 2 was a very logical and natural continuation to the story, I thought. I didn't have the feeling that Part 2 was forced in any way. It flowed very naturally from the ending of Part 1, like if Part 2 had been planned from the beginning. I love what they've done.
It makes me a bit sad that so many people are reading the game on such a shallow level. So many comments out there are basically saying that the only thing this game is about is "Revenge is bad." I mean, yeah I guess it's in there... But it's like saying that the only thing Breaking Bad is about is "Drugs are bad." There's a lot more in there than that, isn't it?
To me, the main messages and themes throughout the game are loss and grief, "the decisions you make and the actions you take have proportional consequences", and our relationship with the Other. But my experience with the game is too fresh, I definitely need to have some more time to think about it.
This game has been on my mind ever since I finished it. If I'm honest, I think I loved Part 2 more than Part 1. It was an emotional roller coaster that I won't forget any time soon. Maybe because it was such a cathartic experience for me. The ending had me bawling. I think this game will stay with me for a very long time.
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The part about that comic ending that fits the least I think is her hurting Lev. For all of Ellie's faults in this game she never hurts someone just to cause pain to someone else. Like sure, she threatens him to get Abby to fight, but she never actually does anything to him.
Ellie, Dina, Jesse, and Tommy all thought the same in reverse and wouldn't change that if Dina wasn't pregnant.
No, i was like "don't do this, don't do this"
What easter egg?
i didnt, it got to a point a was dodging her attacks. i like Abby very much
I like the story much more in retrospect... my biggest hangup was that Ellie didn't kill Abby at the end. maybe where this was the first time she had actually had the choice whether to kill Abby made it mean more to her. before, she was close, but this was the choice in the moment. I guess I have to assume l her other murders were meaningless b/c she didn't know any of the people or have any connection to them, so this was the only one that felt real.... but idk, this is just me trying to rationalize it. with Ellie coming off as more and more evil as the game went on, the ending didn't really make sense to me. do you all have thoughts on this?
Edit-just adding some things
a lot of Ellie's perspective was supposed to be inferred I think and she has thoughts you don't see. which I think makes her character arc more intriguing. the brief flashbacks of images of Joel in the last ellie abby fight made me think that wasn't enough to motivate her, like if it would show that why wouldn't it show more that would explain more? but I think I'm to assume that image or two was just shorthand for a whole train of Train of thoughts she had, as representation, not just a shortcut
Edit-just adding some things
a lot of Ellie's perspective was supposed to be inferred I think and she has thoughts you don't see. which I think makes her character arc more intriguing. the brief flashbacks of images of Joel in the last ellie abby fight made me think that wasn't enough to motivate her, like if it would show that why wouldn't it show more that would explain more? but I think I'm to assume that image or two was just shorthand for a whole train of Train of thoughts she had, as representation, not just a shortcut
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And even then there is a point to how he died. Abby's going too far in that moment influences her relationship with Mel and Owen in a major way which ultimately influences her to go back for the kids. We need to see the absolute rage she exhibits while beating and killing Joel to draw parallels to Ellie as well as it shows how much they felt for their fathers that the pain turns them into such monsters both. Commentators pretending they have a valid criticism when it's nothing but a complaint for basically not being able to handle how a storytelling choice made them feel is hilarious.
People wanted dina to get killed early, Joel and Ellie go on a revenge tour across the country, and then at the end Joel rides his horse literally going out in a blaze of glory saving the day because he is "badass".
Totally agree - I managed to avoid almost all spoilers (except for one jerk who passive-aggressively spoiled that Ellie let's Joel's killer go - good news is those parts of the game were so intense I forgot the spoiler completely).
Im actually really bummed out that this game is getting beaten up by so many people, often without them even playing it. IMO we are lucky to have something like this to play - something that goes beyond typical story expectations.
Great post. This is a deeply personal game for me, there were times near the end that I just sat in tears because of how I could connect with some of the major themes in my personal life. My brother died of cancer a few months ago and I was never able to say goodbye to him, I wasn't able to say much to him in the last 13 months of his life when he struggled with cancer, and all of that is very complicated to get into. My brother and I grew closer as adults but he was a fucking asshole to me growing up. I had never really forgiven him for how he treated me and he never asked for it either. His death broke me in a way that feels permanent and so much about my relationship with him will remain unresolved. So this is real, the game treats these themes in a very human way.
Bingo. The key thing is: Abby didn't kill Joel to hurt or punish Ellie.
Neil deliberately lied when he said if TLoU Part I was about love, Part II was about hate. Not that there is no exploration of hate within the game, but it's not an either-or. Because there is no easy separation of Part I vs Part II, they both tell a complete whole story that is rooted ultimately in the exploration of the first game's ending. If anything, it's hard to think of many other games that is more deserving of it being called Part 2 instead of just TLoU 2.
My view is that - if all you took away from the game was the violence, hate and the suffering that most of the cast went through, then you completely missed the real heart of the game - which is the theme of love, empathy and forgiveness.
And I totally understand if the second side of the themes completely fails to land, for both pacing issues and difficulty in empathizing with the character who is the mirror of which that other side is explored in Abby.
I've always said this about ND as a developer, and it's both a praise and criticism. They are a developer who's game design is rooted in the story and narrative they want to tell, and they design their games to evoke very specific emotional beats out of the player. When they want you to feel enthralled, excited, frustrated, etc. And due to that design approach, there are times when it falls flat - scenes meant to endear doesn't work, etc etc. And historically, I think while ND hits more than they miss, they miss it enough with people who can deconstruct or decouple themselves from ND's game design techniques that all of ND's narrative tricks don't work at all.
The Last of Us Part II is - imo - by far, the best ND game at successfully manipulating your emotion to feel all the difference feelings within the experience of a game. And not just because it lands on so many of them, but it expands the range of emotional experience felt by the player by a lot.
My view is that - if all you took away from the game was the violence, hate and the suffering that most of the cast went through, then you completely missed the real heart of the game - which is the theme of love, empathy and forgiveness.
And I totally understand if the second side of the themes completely fails to land, for both pacing issues and difficulty in empathizing with the character who is the mirror of which that other side is explored in Abby.
I've always said this about ND as a developer, and it's both a praise and criticism. They are a developer who's game design is rooted in the story and narrative they want to tell, and they design their games to evoke very specific emotional beats out of the player. When they want you to feel enthralled, excited, frustrated, etc. And due to that design approach, there are times when it falls flat - scenes meant to endear doesn't work, etc etc. And historically, I think while ND hits more than they miss, they miss it enough with people who can deconstruct or decouple themselves from ND's game design techniques that all of ND's narrative tricks don't work at all.
The Last of Us Part II is - imo - by far, the best ND game at successfully manipulating your emotion to feel all the difference feelings within the experience of a game. And not just because it lands on so many of them, but it expands the range of emotional experience felt by the player by a lot.
Mel lost a mentor in the doctor as well. Everybody else? No idea. I think it's because they all served at that hospital and given Joel's body count there they all lost somebody important to that rampage. Double read your post and it seems like we agree. Joel killed their friends.
lmao. I won't lie, I thought that was what they were going for based on the trailers. ND's "misleading" marketing is a stroke of genius in my opinion because it made me love the game a lot more due to how unpredictable it became at times.
Thing is they could have shuffled things around and maybe done some foreshadowing of the ending a little earlier instead of explaining only after the fact (and only vaguely, you have to think about the connection between the porch scene and sparing Abby) why Ellie had to let go of the hatred. But that would cheapen the actual message here for me. The whole game they put you in situations that make you feel certain ways that you can only understand fully after the fact. Why would they do that if not to make people understand that much of the suffering caused comes from people refusing to take another's perspective, to work for information and context. I think people who come away wishing for an alternate ending of revenge fantasy are exactly those who the narrative here says are the reason shit like this happens. Burst into violence first, ask questions never.
There's plenty about this game's story that I dislike but the ending isn't one of them, why on earth do people want Elle to turn into the Joker by the end of the game?
I'm replaying through TLOU1 again and my PS4 is like "aw shit, here we go again," before the fans went into overdrive
Ready for the PS5
Ready for the PS5
Because all of these people can't understand that it isn't a story of revenge. They wanted Ellie to literally just be girl John Wick.
That's Manny yeah. Also, I usually hate it when they have a Latino character speaking Spanish words randomly within their English speech, but this time I didn't mind because Abby would use a couple of Spanish words here and there, that shows some empathy and also a greater friendship bond, that's a nice touch that usually is excluded in these kinds of scenarios, where it's only the Latino character using some Spanish words here and there while their colleagues don't say shit.
Because Abby killed Joel, the deity. But also I think some people think that Ellie would kill Abby if she really loved Joel lol.
I am compiling a lot of my thoughts still, want to structure a pretty big piece on Abby and her excellent arc and growth. But just want to say I am loving all the lengthy very well-thought-out posts here. To anyone who feels something is missing, I urge you to either replay/rewatch cutscenes, because every character's motivations and relationships are in the game and well presented. Even characters like Manny have more to them when you dig down.
Right so:
Pros
Overall it was better than the first in a lot of ways, but I think I liked the story of the first more. The "get woke go broke" crowd can go fuck themselves though. This is nowhere near a 1 star.
I wasn't big on the story (I thought the revenge plot was formulaic) but rewrite it? Nah, fuck off. I really like Abby and Lev (hate Ellie by the end but I guess that was the goal. Poor Dina) so if the 3rd game is about them I'm al
Pros
- fuckin BEAUTIFUL
- Top Tier mocap
- fun to play
- All my fights were really cinematic
- I liked all the new characters
- I'm excited for a sequel if it's going with Abby and Lev
- Couple weird things that bugged me (pregnancy is weird in this world. No one seems to care about actively endangering their baby and I'm surprised with all the punishment Dina took that her baby was fine, those bank robbers have been in there 30 years. They should be skeletons or fused to the wall, etc.)
- I fell through the world among other things
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- I thought the revenge plot was pretty standard as far as revenge plots go. Not a lot that I didn't see coming (I didn't see that full nudity and sex coming but that's beside the point)
- Joel's death didn't land for me because I figured it'd have to happen. We'd been discussing Joel's ghost since the first reveal of the game. It was either gonna be him or Dina
- I don't feel bad for Ellie so much as I hate Ellie. I feel REALLY bad for Dina, Jesse, and everyone who got sacrificed on that path. I feel like that was the point so that's not really a con but I guess I'll put it here anyway
Overall it was better than the first in a lot of ways, but I think I liked the story of the first more. The "get woke go broke" crowd can go fuck themselves though. This is nowhere near a 1 star.
lmao these weirdos and their petitions.
I wasn't big on the story (I thought the revenge plot was formulaic) but rewrite it? Nah, fuck off. I really like Abby and Lev (hate Ellie by the end but I guess that was the goal. Poor Dina) so if the 3rd game is about them I'm al
They live in a nightmare hellscape of crazies and mushroom zombies. They had a chance to escape that nightmare, and some asshole runs in and effectively dooms the planet. They don't need personal reasons to want Joel dead. ANYONE who knew what he did would want Joel dead. If the town had known what Joel did they'd probably help Abby bash his head in
Would you say she was...Sleepless in Seattle?
But she does. She cracked Joel's head open right before Ellie's eyes as she was screaming and begging for his life to be spared. Joel didn't make her watch her father be shot or be beaten to death. Abby, as Mel put it, is "a piece of shit and and she always will be" and her latching on to this inexplicable need to help Lev and his sister didn't cleanse her soul. She was even going to gleefully kill Dina with the joy of knowing that she too was pregnant like Mel when she died but Lev stopped her.
She clearly is trying to be a better person, mainly for the sake of Lev, but she is still very much the monster Ellie saw her as and deserved everything that happened to her. Ellie was spared the first time because of Owen, then again because of Lev, but Ellie spared Abby because it was HER choice without any influence from anyone around her. That alone makes her a better person than Abby despite going on a vengeance killing spree.
I started debating that cartoon with someone on Twitter...but the people there are so fuckin dense I don't think I can do it.
There's no debate about it, it's both disgusting and totally represents all the awful discourse of the game.
I think that's why I hated Ellie by the end but liked Abby. I said it before (and people keep getting mad about it when I mention it elsewhere) but it's a pretty standard revenge story. If you go down that route YOU WILL END UP WITH NOTHING. That's how those go. The only way to win is to stop. That's what Abby's figured out by the end and it's part of why I liked her. That's why she gets to win (or what is as close to winning as you can get in this universe) and Ellie loses.
That was the biggest NOPE I've had in a while.They infected the damn Kool Aid Man
Coincidence, that appeared on my feed and decided to give it a shot. It's sad that this is pretty much the first yt'er/streamer I've seen who doesn't immediately dismiss the game after that moment.
Yeah I'm trying to explain the difference beteeen what Abby did and what the cartoon shows. Basically the cartoon is like someone put a lot of effort into illustrating how they completely misunderstood the story.
I did find that a little weird but there's probably some significance I'm missing.
She really does deserve it. She started the revenge ball rolling. She sees what that ball does to everyone else right before it comes back to her. At that point looking at Lev she realizes that this ride doesn't end until you tell it to end. Ellie doesn't figure this out until it's waaaaay too late.
If you actually like watching Let's Plays I will give one more shoutout to Christopher Odd who not only shows a pretty good understanding of the gameplay, but also has an open mind the entire time.
I actually watched them stream last night, and his reaction to the Abby surprise was just as level headed.
She can't play the guitar properly anymore, her last connection to Joel. I realized that in strumming it a bit that the chords seemed to be coming out jank
Manny lives with her, he's the weeb. He even mentions Princess Mononoke (not by name).
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