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Elodes

Looks to the Moon
Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,231
The Netherlands
Alright, let's do this.



That is not related to experience points, enemy HP, or revealing the inner workings of the NPC (who are still totally unpredictable and dangerous and you don't know what they'll do, how much health they have, what they are carrying, how much "XP" they'll give you, etc).

Listen Mode is a tactical tool to balance the gameplay. To balance the fact a player doesn't have the senses that Ellie does in the world. It's a system-subjective feature.


Sounds pretty realistic to me.

Oh yeah, and we've all played the first game, which was very realistic. You combine alcohol and rags to make a bandage? Yup, realistic. You'd do that in real life.

Yes there's a UI for doing this, but the UI essentially represents Ellie's mind. It doesn't tell you anything about the world or enemies in it. It doesn't do fourth-wall-breaking shit like telling you what an NPC is carrying or where you can find the resources or whatever. The UI is just there to let you see what Ellie is thinking: "there's a rag on the floor by my feet", "I can combine these two things to make that thing". The sorts of things you could combine IRL. Enemies and their "minds" are always impenetrable. They designed this meticulously.



Again, not terribly unrealistic (humanity hasn't been doing any grass trimming or construction for, what, 25 years?) and again, nothing to do with UI or revealing the inner workings of NPCs, which is the core point of this discussion. This is simply a stealth tool.


Again, nothing to do with NPC UI, and again, plenty "waist-high cover" in real life. Regardless, from what we've seen of TLOU2 that cover is infinitely more nuanced and dynamic (you can now go prone to hide behind lower stuff, you can climb on top of things, etc).


Again, this is all UI for Ellie/the player, not for enemies. This is about giving the player clarity and bringing them into the intensity of Ellie's actions.

This discussion is about revealing the enemies' inner workings through UI. Of demystifying the systems underneath the enemy's models. And again, this is something Naughty Dog will never reveal during gameplay.


You clearly totally misunderstand the purpose of those UI elements (damage points, XP points, etc). None of this is about being "realistic" or "unrealistic" per se, it's about ensuring characters/enemies are believable entities and not turning them into silly game objects.

Not a single piece of UI in any of Naughty Dog's games reveals the inner workings of its NPCs. Unlike say in an RPG or a shlooter where these UI features are common. That's because in those games NPCs have clearly marked status ailments, health bars, XP, etc. The core loop is improving your character's stats (a spreadsheet) and your abilities/attacks (other spreadsheets) to compound enemy stats (health, DPS, weakness elements, etc - more spreadsheets) knowing how much damage your actions do. The NPCs are somewhat transparent - as much as you fight them, you're also managing them. You understand their stats and how your stats relate to theirs.

This concept does not align with Naughty Dog's core goal. Which is cinematic. They want you to be in a playable movie; or better than a playable movie. Having numbers and spreadsheets floating around isn't something you'd see in a movie, right?

But more importantly, what is crucial to a movie? Characters. Naughty Dog meticulously design UI to make everything as much like a movie as possible, with believable characters/enemies in it. This means never breaking the fourth wall with characters (enemies or friendlies). The opposite of this? Putting "damage points" above an enemy. Putting "XP points" above an enemy. When it comes to characters and enemies, they will never use UI or systems to reveal the character's inner workings. Because that completely goes against their philosophy. Under their philosophy, you shoot someone in the head, they die. (And indeed that is how it works in every one of their games since 2006, with rare tiny exceptions.)

The only argument against this fact is "Listen Mode", but even that doesn't tell you the NPCs inner workings. It just conveys what Ellie/the player-character is keeping track of that you aren't able to (because you're not physically in the world). It shows you where they are right now. It doesn't show you where they're going, what their health is, where they've been, etc.

When I spoke about realism, it pertained only to the NPCs. Not the overall gameplay or game systems. Of course ND games have tons of UI and systems. I never said they didn't. What they DON'T have is UI which trivialises enemies and NPCs and turns them into game-objects. Because to ND, making other characters feel like figures in a movie is of utmost importance.
This is a very high-quality post. A pleasure to read, and very well argued. Thank you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
I think that would really take away from the believeability they're going for with the fungus, turning into a cheesy, resident evil type thing. It would totally retroactively nullify a lot of the emotional weight of the first game too since there's no point in a cure if it can evolve in such a short amount of time.

I think ND intentionally refrained from talking about how a human infecting cordycepts fungus came about, so there really is no canon.
Good argument, I'm happy with the classes they've revealed so far, interested to see what else lies in the game.

Actually the first games does mention infected monkeys so it's not out of the realm of canon to see some grotesque monsters in this game.
Infected monkeys, or just that they were testing on monkeys? I only remember the monkeys being caged for experiments but not necessarily fungus experiments.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,625
Good argument, I'm happy with the classes they've revealed so far, interested to see what else lies in the game.


Infected monkeys, or just that they were testing on monkeys? I only remember the monkeys being caged for experiments but not necessarily fungus experiments.
There's a voice recording from the scientist who releases the monkeys, mentioninh the infected ones before getting bitten by one and panicking over it
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,732
When it comes to enemy variety stuff, I don't want them to mess with the verisimilitude of the game. The Bloaters already felt a little bit too miniboss-y for my tastes. Stuff like the clickers/runners work well because they've got chemistry together (stalkers are good too, though I wish their AI did more to differentiate them from runners outside of one or two setpieces).
 

SoloTerran

Member
Jun 29, 2018
339
What difficulty will you guys use on your first playthrough?

I was thinking hard, but hubers and other feedback has me thinking of starting on survivor mode.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,100
Peru
What difficulty will you guys use on your first playthrough?

I was thinking hard, but hubers and other feedback has me thinking of starting on survivor mode.
Still torn between hard and survivor, will probably settle for hard on my first playthrough though since everything will be new to me. I played the first one so many times that lower than survivor just doesn't feel right anymore though, but this will be a new experience so hard might be just fine, while I'll stick to survivor for subsequent runs.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
So, iirc, TLoU 1 had Bloaters and yet Druckman did not mention them as he went through the list of enemies in Pt 2. So, I wonder if they have mutated to become the Shamblers or the new most fearsome foe...
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
So, iirc, TLoU 1 had Bloaters and yet Druckman did not mention them as he went through the list of enemies in Pt 2. So, I wonder if they have mutated to become the Shamblers or the new most fearsome foe...

In the SoP Neil mentioned that there was another stage of infected aside from the ones they showed that he wasn't going to mention and leave as a surprise. Maybe there are even more surprises than that one in terms of infected enemies, but at least there's an official stage we haven't seen.

Edit: Actually, just saw the bit and what he actually was this: "But our most terrifying and lethal new forms of infected will have to wait until you play the game for yourselves." That suggests more infected enemies (plural) that we don't know of... I was wrong about him saying there being another stage, but that may end up true as well.
 
Last edited:

Kaversmed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,726
Denmark
So, iirc, TLoU 1 had Bloaters and yet Druckman did not mention them as he went through the list of enemies in Pt 2. So, I wonder if they have mutated to become the Shamblers or the new most fearsome foe...
qVbDGy7.gif
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
In the SoP Neil mentioned that there was another stage of infected aside from the ones they showed that he wasn't going to mention and leave as a surprise. Maybe there are even more surprises than that one in terms of infected enemies, but at least there's an official stage we haven't seen.

Bloaters definitely showed up in the State of Play.

Yep, you're right, I completely missed this before:


Edit: Ah gaddamn, beaten like an used drum. Thanks Kaversmed
 

Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
Alright, let's do this.



That is not related to experience points, enemy HP, or revealing the inner workings of the NPC (who are still totally unpredictable and dangerous and you don't know what they'll do, how much health they have, what they are carrying, how much "XP" they'll give you, etc).

Listen Mode is a tactical tool to balance the gameplay. To balance the fact a player doesn't have the senses that Ellie does in the world. It's a system-subjective feature.


Sounds pretty realistic to me.

Oh yeah, and we've all played the first game, which was very realistic. You combine alcohol and rags to make a bandage? Yup, realistic. You'd do that in real life.

Yes there's a UI for doing this, but the UI essentially represents Ellie's mind. It doesn't tell you anything about the world or enemies in it. It doesn't do fourth-wall-breaking shit like telling you what an NPC is carrying or where you can find the resources or whatever. The UI is just there to let you see what Ellie is thinking: "there's a rag on the floor by my feet", "I can combine these two things to make that thing". The sorts of things you could combine IRL. Enemies and their "minds" are always impenetrable. They designed this meticulously.



Again, not terribly unrealistic (humanity hasn't been doing any grass trimming or construction for, what, 25 years?) and again, nothing to do with UI or revealing the inner workings of NPCs, which is the core point of this discussion. This is simply a stealth tool.


Again, nothing to do with NPC UI, and again, plenty "waist-high cover" in real life. Regardless, from what we've seen of TLOU2 that cover is infinitely more nuanced and dynamic (you can now go prone to hide behind lower stuff, you can climb on top of things, etc).


Again, this is all UI for Ellie/the player, not for enemies. This is about giving the player clarity and bringing them into the intensity of Ellie's actions.

This discussion is about revealing the enemies' inner workings through UI. Of demystifying the systems underneath the enemy's models. And again, this is something Naughty Dog will never reveal during gameplay.


You clearly totally misunderstand the purpose of those UI elements (damage points, XP points, etc). None of this is about being "realistic" or "unrealistic" per se, it's about ensuring characters/enemies are believable entities and not turning them into silly game objects.

Not a single piece of UI in any of Naughty Dog's games reveals the inner workings of its NPCs. Unlike say in an RPG or a shlooter where these UI features are common. That's because in those games NPCs have clearly marked status ailments, health bars, XP, etc. The core loop is improving your character's stats (a spreadsheet) and your abilities/attacks (other spreadsheets) to compound enemy stats (health, DPS, weakness elements, etc - more spreadsheets) knowing how much damage your actions do. The NPCs are somewhat transparent - as much as you fight them, you're also managing them. You understand their stats and how your stats relate to theirs.

This concept does not align with Naughty Dog's core goal. Which is cinematic. They want you to be in a playable movie; or better than a playable movie. Having numbers and spreadsheets floating around isn't something you'd see in a movie, right?

But more importantly, what is crucial to a movie? Characters. Naughty Dog meticulously design UI to make everything as much like a movie as possible, with believable characters/enemies in it. This means never breaking the fourth wall with characters (enemies or friendlies). The opposite of this? Putting "damage points" above an enemy. Putting "XP points" above an enemy. When it comes to characters and enemies, they will never use UI or systems to reveal the character's inner workings. Because that completely goes against their philosophy. Under their philosophy, you shoot someone in the head, they die. (And indeed that is how it works in every one of their games since 2006, with rare tiny exceptions.)

The only argument against this fact is "Listen Mode", but even that doesn't tell you the NPCs inner workings. It just conveys what Ellie/the player-character is keeping track of that you aren't able to (because you're not physically in the world). It shows you where they are right now. It doesn't show you where they're going, what their health is, where they've been, etc.

When I spoke about realism, it pertained only to the NPCs. Not the overall gameplay or game systems. Of course ND games have tons of UI and systems. I never said they didn't. What they DON'T have is UI which trivialises enemies and NPCs and turns them into game-objects. Because to ND, making other characters feel like figures in a movie is of utmost importance.
Great post. I still hope the hardest difficulty has no listen mode, and they have a no listen mode option for online play. Only thing in the OG game that would have arguably made it my favorite MP game of all time, ahead of COD1 and Counter Strike.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Actually the first games does mention infected monkeys so it's not out of the realm of canon to see some grotesque monsters in this game.

They can spread the infection but don't turn into fungus monsters. We even see one of them run away in the college area. Not a fungus monster, more like mosquitoes that spread malaria.
 
Apr 19, 2018
6,807
From Game Informer's preview:
Difficulty is highly customizable. I played through the hospital infiltration on a few different challenge settings, and the gulf between them is noticeable. However, you aren't bound to defined modes like easy, normal, or hard; you can also fine-tune specific elements of the experience, like how much damage Ellie takes, how perceptive enemies are, and how plentiful resources are in the world.

This all sounds amazingly granular. I wonder how the setting adjustments will be like? Sliders?

Infinite breath while swimming...... yep, I'm down for that.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498

Wondered how they were doing it. Very cool.
 

Kaversmed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,726
Denmark
It's weird they went out of their way to implement all these accessibility options but no option to turn off listen-mode. I know turning listen-mode off is kinda the opposite of accessibility but still.
 

Galatico91

Member
May 23, 2020
477
It's weird they went out of their way to implement all these accessibility options but no option to turn off listen-mode. I know turning listen-mode off is kinda the opposite of accessibility but still.

I think they will ad via patch for launch. Probably they want reviewers to play the game with listening mode because much of them are not very good on games and the game becomes much harder without listening.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
I think they will ad via patch for launch. Probably they want reviewers to play the game with listening mode because much of them are not very good on games and the game becomes much harder without listening.
If reviewers are "not very good at games", then neither is most of gaming audience and most of the forum here.
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
It just hit me that we're getting reviews for this next week and the game the week after.
We're so damn close.

My Pro is sitting in a corner waiting to go:

spacex-starlink-lift-off.gif
 

AllChan7

Tries to be a positive role model
Member
Apr 30, 2019
3,670
It just hit me that we're getting reviews for this next week and the game the week after.
We're so damn close.

My Pro is sitting in a corner waiting to go:

spacex-starlink-lift-off.gif

Man the review cycle for this game is gonna be incredible. Assuming it reviews like we all expect, I can't imagine how toxic how some of the comments will be.

If you think the paid reviewer conspiracies are bad now, I can guarantee it'll be worse for this game. Lol
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Man the review cycle for this game is gonna be incredible. Assuming it reviews like we all expect, I can't imagine how toxic how some of the comments will be.

If you think the paid reviewer conspiracies are bad now, I can guarantee it'll be worse for this game. Lol

The narrative is already being planned. You can see plenty of comments going like "of course it will review amazing. reviewers are all SJWs anyway and technically it will be great". So that when it reviews well it'll be something like "lmao predictable".
I can see it from a mile away.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
Listen mode being present on all modes is a bit of a relief to me. I got really good at playing without it for my survival and grounded playthroughs, but still honestly kinda hated having to do so. It staying on means I'll probably play on Hard the first time to get a balance of story and a challenge before I try to clean up trophies.

It also means I can cease trying to make myself play without it on my current replay of the first game lol.
 

ron_bato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
527
Listen mode being present on all modes is a bit of a relief to me. I got really good at playing without it for my survival and grounded playthroughs, but still honestly kinda hated having to do so. It staying on means I'll probably play on Hard the first time to get a balance of story and a challenge before I try to clean up trophies.

It also means I can cease trying to make myself play without it on my current replay of the first game lol.

In my currently playthrough there's only one area where i turned listen mode on. It was the hotel basement lol. One of the genuinely most stressful levels i ever had to play haha.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
In my currently playthrough there's only one area where i turned listen mode on. It was the hotel basement lol. One of the genuinely most stressful levels i ever had to play haha.

I just beat that part last night!

Stalkers are the fucking worst lmao. I was able to do it without listen mode, but I'm also playing on Normal.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,008
Having not yet played TLoU with listen mode. Enabled, I'm sad it (or a mode that finds a minimal approach for 2's needs) is not an option.
 

ron_bato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
527
I just beat that part last night!

Stalkers are the fucking worst lmao. I was able to do it without listen mode, but I'm also playing on Normal.

I'm playing on normal too, i just didnt have it in me to do that part with listen mode off for this playthrough lol. And yes the stalkers are thr worst lol
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
One thing I'm interested in with the new infected is the sound they played from it in the State of Play didn't sound like the other Infected. It was straight up screaming/roaring and we didn't really hear anything like that even from the Clickers or Bloaters. Perhaps there is a stage after Bloater or something along those lines that makes the others look like pushovers. I'm thinking something like the Tank from Left 4 Dead but with fungus shit all over it.
 

ArchStanton

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,264
One thing I'm interested in with the new infected is the sound they played from it in the State of Play didn't sound like the other Infected. It was straight up screaming/roaring and we didn't really hear anything like that even from the Clickers or Bloaters. Perhaps there is a stage after Bloater or something along those lines that makes the others look like pushovers. I'm thinking something like the Tank from Left 4 Dead but with fungus shit all over it.

I'm hoping that this new infected (or multiple infected, if that's the case) can actually hunt you using sight, sound, and smell. Would be a nice enemy type; maybe this game's version of Mr. X??
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,491
Indonesia
One thing I'm interested in with the new infected is the sound they played from it in the State of Play didn't sound like the other Infected. It was straight up screaming/roaring and we didn't really hear anything like that even from the Clickers or Bloaters. Perhaps there is a stage after Bloater or something along those lines that makes the others look like pushovers. I'm thinking something like the Tank from Left 4 Dead but with fungus shit all over it.
looks like it's not just a matter about stages of infection now. Neil said in an interview somewhere that the environment will also have effect on the infected form. so since we'll be going to new area Seattle where we haven't gone before, there might be new form of infected exclusive to Seattle that is not in the first game. that's how we can get a more varied infected type for gameplay purposes
 

TechMetalRules

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,208
United States
Alright, let's do this.



That is not related to experience points, enemy HP, or revealing the inner workings of the NPC (who are still totally unpredictable and dangerous and you don't know what they'll do, how much health they have, what they are carrying, how much "XP" they'll give you, etc).

Listen Mode is a tactical tool to balance the gameplay. To balance the fact a player doesn't have the senses that Ellie does in the world. It's a system-subjective feature.


Sounds pretty realistic to me.

Oh yeah, and we've all played the first game, which was very realistic. You combine alcohol and rags to make a bandage? Yup, realistic. You'd do that in real life.

Yes there's a UI for doing this, but the UI essentially represents Ellie's mind. It doesn't tell you anything about the world or enemies in it. It doesn't do fourth-wall-breaking shit like telling you what an NPC is carrying or where you can find the resources or whatever. The UI is just there to let you see what Ellie is thinking: "there's a rag on the floor by my feet", "I can combine these two things to make that thing". The sorts of things you could combine IRL. Enemies and their "minds" are always impenetrable. They designed this meticulously.



Again, not terribly unrealistic (humanity hasn't been doing any grass trimming or construction for, what, 25 years?) and again, nothing to do with UI or revealing the inner workings of NPCs, which is the core point of this discussion. This is simply a stealth tool.


Again, nothing to do with NPC UI, and again, plenty "waist-high cover" in real life. Regardless, from what we've seen of TLOU2 that cover is infinitely more nuanced and dynamic (you can now go prone to hide behind lower stuff, you can climb on top of things, etc).


Again, this is all UI for Ellie/the player, not for enemies. This is about giving the player clarity and bringing them into the intensity of Ellie's actions.

This discussion is about revealing the enemies' inner workings through UI. Of demystifying the systems underneath the enemy's models. And again, this is something Naughty Dog will never reveal during gameplay.


You clearly totally misunderstand the purpose of those UI elements (damage points, XP points, etc). None of this is about being "realistic" or "unrealistic" per se, it's about ensuring characters/enemies are believable entities and not turning them into silly game objects.

Not a single piece of UI in any of Naughty Dog's games reveals the inner workings of its NPCs. Unlike say in an RPG or a shlooter where these UI features are common. That's because in those games NPCs have clearly marked status ailments, health bars, XP, etc. The core loop is improving your character's stats (a spreadsheet) and your abilities/attacks (other spreadsheets) to compound enemy stats (health, DPS, weakness elements, etc - more spreadsheets) knowing how much damage your actions do. The NPCs are somewhat transparent - as much as you fight them, you're also managing them. You understand their stats and how your stats relate to theirs.

This concept does not align with Naughty Dog's core goal. Which is cinematic. They want you to be in a playable movie; or better than a playable movie. Having numbers and spreadsheets floating around isn't something you'd see in a movie, right?

But more importantly, what is crucial to a movie? Characters. Naughty Dog meticulously design UI to make everything as much like a movie as possible, with believable characters/enemies in it. This means never breaking the fourth wall with characters (enemies or friendlies). The opposite of this? Putting "damage points" above an enemy. Putting "XP points" above an enemy. When it comes to characters and enemies, they will never use UI or systems to reveal the character's inner workings. Because that completely goes against their philosophy. Under their philosophy, you shoot someone in the head, they die. (And indeed that is how it works in every one of their games since 2006, with rare tiny exceptions.)

The only argument against this fact is "Listen Mode", but even that doesn't tell you the NPCs inner workings. It just conveys what Ellie/the player-character is keeping track of that you aren't able to (because you're not physically in the world). It shows you where they are right now. It doesn't show you where they're going, what their health is, where they've been, etc.

When I spoke about realism, it pertained only to the NPCs. Not the overall gameplay or game systems. Of course ND games have tons of UI and systems. I never said they didn't. What they DON'T have is UI which trivialises enemies and NPCs and turns them into game-objects. Because to ND, making other characters feel like figures in a movie is of utmost importance.
Oh, I love this! I agree so hard with everything here, thanks for posting!