The Last of Us Part 2 Spoilercast w/ Neil Druckmann, Ashley Johnson, Troy Baker

[AllChan7]

Also I'm really glad Neil confirmed that Joel was a different man which is why he was willing to help Abby. Plus Jackson is used to trading with and taking in folks in need. Idk why people act like same Joel who didn't trust strangers is the same person. Not to mention Abby helped them escape from a life or death situation.

I really don't understand why people believe Joel was acting out of character when theres enough context there ti explain his actions.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Also I'm really glad Neil confirmed that Joel was a different man which is why he was willing to help Abby. Plus Jackson is used to trading with and taking in folks in need. Idk why people act like same Joel who didn't trust strangers is the same person. Not to mention Abby helped them escape from a life or death situation.

I really don't understand why people believe Joel was acting out of character when theres enough context there ti explain his actions.

Click to shrink...

I mean on outbreak day they left families to die instead of help to him helping a random Abby 25 years later

 

[Conan]

I want someone to ask the developers if they believe torture is effective. Every depiction of torture in these two games yields valuable information and drives the plot forward. Sure, there is some gesturing towards 'yes, but is it worth the mental anguish of the torturer?' but it still plays into the widespread (especially in the US) misconception that torture is a viable way to gather intelligence.

No one ever lies to make the pain stop and loses their rational mind because of suffering or dies from shock before hearing the question etc.

It's probably not intentional but there does seem to be a subconscious notion in the creative team that torture simply works, despite what research and history show.

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure that is why in both games they set up a scenario where 2 people are being tortured and must give the same answer, to eliminate the possibility of lies. Also Joel doesn't really have an option in tlou1. He knows a loved one is being held captive and must either torture or start a grid based search, it would almost be absurd if he didn't try.

 

[AllChan7]

I mean on outbreak day they left families to die instead of help to him helping a random Abby 25 years later

Click to shrink...

Entirely different Joel and Tommy

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Entirely different Joel and Tommy

Click to shrink...

Yea that's the point they were still like that until 5 years ago

 

[AllChan7]

Yea that's the point they were still like that until 5 years ago

Click to shrink...

Ah gotcha. I misread

 

[Galatico91]

I mean on outbreak day they left families to die instead of help to him helping a random Abby 25 years later

Click to shrink...

You only forgot Joel shot his neighbour in front of Sara, he already knew the virus was really dangerous, that maybe influenced his attitude.

 

[Mariolee]

Yea that's the point they were still like that until 5 years ago

Click to shrink...

Things stayed bad for 15 years (?) but 5 years ago with Jackson and Ellie things slowly but surely got better which is why Joel changes too.

 

[Deleted member 32679]

So Druckmann says that a major point of both games is how far you'll go because of your love for somebody. Given that, my read on Ellie's motivation during the final sequence is: (spoiler tagged just in case)

Spoiler

When she's drowning Abby, and the camera holds on Ellie's face, Ellie has a moment of moral clarity, and knows that what she's doing is crazy, is horrible. She says to herself that this is what she has to do though, this and all of the horrible shit that she's done is justified because of what they did to Joel, and because of just how much she loved Joel. And that's when she remembers the porch scene about forgiving Joel, about how she doesn't know how. And Ellie puts two and two together, understanding how far she went because of her love for Joel, all of the horrible things she was willing to do, and she finally understands how he could do what he did at the end of the first game. She's just as guilty of doing unspeakable things because of her love for him, and she's still doing horrible things by currently drowning Abby. So she lets go, and lets Abby and Lev go free.

I'm pretty happy with that interpretation.

Click to shrink...

When I read this just after beating the game it just gelled all my thoughts and mixed emotions perfectly.

 

[Mugen X]

When I read this just after beating the game it just gelled all my thoughts and mixed emotions perfectly.

Click to shrink...

There's a part of you that isn't sure how to feel when the credits roll, I felt pure sorrow and emptiness at first. I felt so sad for Ellie, but thinking on it and reading interpretations like that make me feel like maybe she went back to Jackson.

 

[Deleted member 32679]

There's a part of you that isn't sure how to feel when the credits roll, I felt pure sorrow and emptiness at first. I felt so sad for Ellie, but thinking on it and reading interpretations like that make me feel like maybe she went back to Jackson.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I hope she finds peace or some semblance of purpose back in Jackson. Poor Tommy is forever distraught unless Ellie or Maria can break through his fractured mind and body.

 

[poklane]

Yeah I hope she finds peace or some semblance of purpose back in Jackson. Poor Tommy is forever distraught unless Ellie or Maria can break through his fractured mind and body.

Click to shrink...

If there's gonna be a Part 3 I could see it involving Tommy going nuclear over Ellie not finishing off Abby, them having a huge falling out and Tommy organizing an army to go Catalina Island to kill Abby, although he himself obviously wont be part of that squad. Ellie went after Abby a second time because of her trauma, but Tommy's motivation were still pure hatred and lust for revenge.

 

[NHarmonic.]

This was great. What the host says about the ending regarding Ellie made a lot of sense imo and is my headcanon now.

There's so much you can discuss about the game, just wished the leaks didn't happen because that will poison probably every online discussion about it.

 

[Callibretto]

If there's gonna be a Part 3 I could see it involving Tommy going nuclear over Ellie not finishing off Abby, them having a huge falling out and Tommy organizing an army to go Catalina Island to kill Abby, although he himself obviously wont be part of that squad. Ellie went after Abby a second time because of her trauma, but Tommy's motivation were still pure hatred and lust for revenge.

Click to shrink...

Can't Ellie just lie to Tommy that Abby is dead, just to give Tommy that peace of mind and chance to move forward

 

[MegaSackman]

So Druckmann says that a major point of both games is how far you'll go because of your love for somebody. Given that, my read on Ellie's motivation during the final sequence is: (spoiler tagged just in case)

Spoiler

When she's drowning Abby, and the camera holds on Ellie's face, Ellie has a moment of moral clarity, and knows that what she's doing is crazy, is horrible. She says to herself that this is what she has to do though, this and all of the horrible shit that she's done is justified because of what they did to Joel, and because of just how much she loved Joel. And that's when she remembers the porch scene about forgiving Joel, about how she doesn't know how. And Ellie puts two and two together, understanding how far she went because of her love for Joel, all of the horrible things she was willing to do, and she finally understands how he could do what he did at the end of the first game. She's just as guilty of doing unspeakable things because of her love for him, and she's still doing horrible things by currently drowning Abby. So she lets go, and lets Abby and Lev go free.

I'm pretty happy with that interpretation.

Click to shrink...

I just remembered about Spider-Man 3, terrible movie lol but it shares some topics you know and one of the final scenes is kinda related to all this.

It shows how different things are when they are fully explained in your face.
I believe it kinda works for the type of movie and public objective and Sandman was actually the only good part about it.

Anyway here's the scene:

 

[JusDoIt]

This was great.

 

[poklane]

Can't Ellie just lie to Tommy that Abby is dead, just to give Tommy that peace of mind and chance to move forward

Click to shrink...

Definitely could, but I'm not sure if Ellie has it in her to lie to Tommy like that. Also don't forget that Abby and Lev have joined the Fireflies and Tommy is a former Firefly, he could still have some connections and find out they're alive that way.

 

[Callibretto]

Definitely could, but I'm not sure if Ellie has it in her to lie to Tommy like that. Also don't forget that Abby and Lev have joined the Fireflies and Tommy is a former Firefly, he could still have some connections and find out they're alive that way.

Click to shrink...

if Tommy ever found out that Abby's alive and confront Ellie, just let Ellie said from certain point of view, the old Abby already died by the Rattlers ;P

 

[Paperchampion23]

if Tommy ever found out that Abby's alive and confront Ellie, just let Ellie said from certain point of view, the old Abby already died by the Rattlers ;P

Click to shrink...

I do think this is going to be a plot point in the 3rd one. Tommy honestly I can see representing what happened when you take vengeance too far and too long. He honestly might be a partial/side-antagonist in the next game. He might be crippled slightly now, but that doesn't mean his anger left, and now that Ellie let Abby live, if he finds out about he might go off the rails.


Theres a ton of potential for a 3rd game that still leaves the series able really dig deeper in these characters. Technically the cycle of hate/revenge isn't over because Tommy is alive. We'll see what happens.

 

[Callibretto]

I prefer the story focus on Ellie's jouney to find new meaning for her life, preferably without killing herself. Joel said it in part 1. You keep finding something to fight for.

 

[scrambledeggs]

I want TLOU3 to be ND's least violent game yet.

AKA Ellie living her life in Jackson with her family/new GF and Abby and Lev helping to properly establish a community with the Fireflies.

 

[•79•]

I really hope they leave it at two. It felt like a thorough examination of what revenge does to a person and to go through it all over again in another game would seem pointless.

The game is also an incredible illustration of the old writers adage of the antagonist is the hero of their own story. In fact I found myself empathising with Abby just as much as I was with Ellie that calling her an antagonist seems wrong. To have a part 3 where they go after her again would undermine power of this game.

I finished the game yesterday and I'm still thinking about it.

 

[DieH@rd]

I want TLOU3 to be ND's least violent game yet.

AKA Ellie living her life in Jackson with her family/new GF and Abby and Lev helping to properly establish a community with the Fireflies.

Click to shrink...

Isn't she infected and doomed to die? Those freed prisoners at the end mentioned that she was bitten.

 

[MadLaughter]

Isn't she infected and doomed to die? Those freed prisoners at the end mentioned that she was bitten.

Click to shrink...

No, they were talking about Ellie.

 

[VirtuaModel]

Isn't she infected and doomed to die? Those freed prisoners at the end mentioned that she was bitten.

Click to shrink...

They were talking about Ellie's hand from her first encounter with the rattlers.

 

[DieH@rd]

Yeah, I just re-watched it, the woman who yelled "she's bit" motioned toward Ellie.

 

[Strangelove_77]

This was really good. Really indepth.
I wish other games had something to the quality of this.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

I do think this is going to be a plot point in the 3rd one. Tommy honestly I can see representing what happened when you take vengeance too far and too long. He honestly might be a partial/side-antagonist in the next game. He might be crippled slightly now, but that doesn't mean his anger left, and now that Ellie let Abby live, if he finds out about he might go off the rails.


Theres a ton of potential for a 3rd game that still leaves the series able really dig deeper in these characters. Technically the cycle of hate/revenge isn't over because Tommy is alive. We'll see what happens.

Click to shrink...

It's a bit weird that Tommy would be so hellbent on getting revenge, since just before the confrontation at the theatre he told Ellie that they got everyone except Abby and it's time to return to Jackson.
They even have this exchange:
Ellie: "So she gets to live?"
Tommy (nods): "Is that okay?"
Ellie: "It will have to be."

It's possible that Jesse dying and him losing an eye in the fight afterwards rekindled his thirst for blood, but I have a hard time seeing that as a bigger motivation than the murder of his brother, which he seemed ready to forgive.

 

[Iwao]

Can't Ellie just lie to Tommy that Abby is dead, just to give Tommy that peace of mind and chance to move forward

Click to shrink...

If Ellie has forgiven Joel and done what she's done due to realising her destructive actions were no different to his, then I doubt she would want to lie to Tommy like that, as Joel did to her in the first game. I think at the end of the game, what dawned on her changed her value system. There's also a chance that Abby's reconnection to the Fireflies could lead back to Ellie and then Tommy would find out she's still alive.

 

[ASilentProtagonist]

Yeah, the Tommy stuff at the end felt out of character for him to do. I get that he lost a lot, which probably made him bitter but still ehhhh.

 

[Noog]

Yeah, the Tommy stuff at the end felt out of character for him to do. I get that he lost a lot, which probably made him bitter but still ehhhh.

Click to shrink...

I haven't seen anyone talk about it so I may be making this up, but my immediate assumption is that he has some minor brain damage after getting shot. A lot of times after traumatic brain injuries people can have personality shifts, often making them have shorter tempers and more aggressive

 

[Mugen X]

So according to Laura Bailey Isaac is a former firefly that was close with Abbys dad. Did they mention this at all in the game?

 

[luca]

It's a bit weird that Tommy would be so hellbent on getting revenge, since just before the confrontation at the theatre he told Ellie that they got everyone except Abby and it's time to return to Jackson.
They even have this exchange:
Ellie: "So she gets to live?"
Tommy (nods): "Is that okay?"
Ellie: "It will have to be."

It's possible that Jesse dying and him losing an eye in the fight afterwards rekindled his thirst for blood, but I have a hard time seeing that as a bigger motivation than the murder of his brother, which he seemed ready to forgive.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the Tommy stuff at the end felt out of character for him to do. I get that he lost a lot, which probably made him bitter but still ehhhh.

Click to shrink...

I haven't seen anyone talk about it so I may be making this up, but my immediate assumption is that he has some minor brain damage after getting shot. A lot of times after traumatic brain injuries people can have personality shifts, often making them have shorter tempers and more aggressive

Click to shrink...

About Tommy. It makes sense. He was ready to move on from Abby, but then she fucking turns up again, and not only kills another one he cares about but also cripples him so he can't even do anything of what he's used to with his life. He can't patrol, he can't snipe, he can't actually do anything of what he's good at. Add to that that he also lost his wife. He's basically left trapped on a chair dawning on Abby and everything she have taken from him. That'll make you go mad, so I totally understand him.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

About Tommy. It makes sense. He was ready to move on from Abby, but then she fucking turns up again, and not only kills another one he cares about but also cripples him so he can't even do anything of what he's used to with his life. He can't patrol, he can't snipe, he can't actually do anything of what he's good at. Add to that that he also lost his wife. He's basically left trapped on a chair dawning on Abby and everything she have taken from him. That'll make you go mad, so I totally understand him.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that is a plausible explanation.

 

[Shoot]

It's a bit weird that Tommy would be so hellbent on getting revenge, since just before the confrontation at the theatre he told Ellie that they got everyone except Abby and it's time to return to Jackson.
They even have this exchange:
Ellie: "So she gets to live?"
Tommy (nods): "Is that okay?"
Ellie: "It will have to be."

It's possible that Jesse dying and him losing an eye in the fight afterwards rekindled his thirst for blood, but I have a hard time seeing that as a bigger motivation than the murder of his brother, which he seemed ready to forgive.

Click to shrink...

This is the one thing that never made sense to me. I get why Joel trusted Abby. I get why Ellie chose not to kill her. I do not get why Tommy, who seems to have only gone to Seattle to protect Ellie, suddenly became obsessed with killing Abby. If he felt that he failed as a leader in Jackson when Jessie died or it is something else, then the game should have made it clear. Instead, we were presented with one of the most inexplicable 180 character turns in any Naughty Dog game.

I really liked Tommy as Joel's more mature and compassionate brother, but his final scene completely assassinated his character for me. The fact that Tommy, Ellie, and Dina even survived Seattle was a miracle (rest in peace Jessie). To force a visibly traumatized and malnourished Ellie (who also recently became a mother) to cross the country again to find and kill Abby has to be the most selfish thing ever.

I really love The Last of Us Part II, but this part bothered me.

 

[SolidSnakex]

This is the one thing that never made sense to me. I get why Joel trusted Abby. I get why Ellie chose not to kill her. I do not get why Tommy, who seems to have only gone to Seattle to protect Ellie, suddenly became obsessed with killing Abby. If he felt that he failed as a leader in Jackson when Jessie died or it is something else, then the game should have made it clear. Instead, we were presented with one of the most inexplicable 180 character turns in any Naughty Dog game.

I really liked Tommy as Joel's more mature and compassionate brother, but his final scene completely assassinated his character for me. The fact that Tommy, Ellie, and Dina even survived Seattle was a miracle (rest in peace Jessie). To force a visibly traumatized and malnourished Ellie (who also recently became a mother) to cross the country again to find and kill Abby has to be the most selfish thing ever.

I really love The Last of Us Part II, but this part bothered me.

Click to shrink...

Look at the state he's in at the end. He has a severe limp and he's blind in one eye. That means he can no longer do patrols because it's just too dangerous. So what else does he have to do to pass the time? Well, he becomes obsessed with Abby. Not just because of what she did to Joel and Jesse, but now also because of what she physically did to him. Then that's compounded with that obsession resulting in him and Maria separating.

 

[Jokerman]

Where does Tommy get shot? It is difficult to see (and I've played through that scene twice now) but it looks like on the left side of his face, but in the farmhouse it looks like he is blind in his right eye. What gives?

 

[luca]

This is the one thing that never made sense to me. I get why Joel trusted Abby. I get why Ellie chose not to kill her. I do not get why Tommy, who seems to have only gone to Seattle to protect Ellie, suddenly became obsessed with killing Abby. If he felt that he failed as a leader in Jackson when Jessie died or it is something else, then the game should have made it clear. Instead, we were presented with one of the most inexplicable 180 character turns in any Naughty Dog game.

I really liked Tommy as Joel's more mature and compassionate brother, but his final scene completely assassinated his character for me. The fact that Tommy, Ellie, and Dina even survived Seattle was a miracle (rest in peace Jessie). To force a visibly traumatized and malnourished Ellie (who also recently became a mother) to cross the country again to find and kill Abby has to be the most selfish thing ever.

I really love The Last of Us Part II, but this part bothered me.

Click to shrink...

It makes sense though. When he was resdy to let Abby go, she turns up YET AGAIN, and I takes another one he cares about. Not only that, she cripples him and takes away an eye. He can no longer do his patrols, he can no longer protect his community, he can no longer do the things he is actually good at. He is basically stuck to a chair, getting worked up about not being able to live a normal life, to chew on the death of his brother and Jesse who he dearly liked, and add to that he also lost his wife. Abby took all of that from him.

Where does Tommy get shot? It is difficult to see (and I've played through that scene twice now) but it looks like on the left side of his face, but in the farmhouse it looks like he is blind in his right eye. What gives?

Click to shrink...

He gets shot on his right side where his eye is missing.

 

[Kalentan]

This is the one thing that never made sense to me. I get why Joel trusted Abby. I get why Ellie chose not to kill her. I do not get why Tommy, who seems to have only gone to Seattle to protect Ellie, suddenly became obsessed with killing Abby. If he felt that he failed as a leader in Jackson when Jessie died or it is something else, then the game should have made it clear. Instead, we were presented with one of the most inexplicable 180 character turns in any Naughty Dog game.

I really liked Tommy as Joel's more mature and compassionate brother, but his final scene completely assassinated his character for me. The fact that Tommy, Ellie, and Dina even survived Seattle was a miracle (rest in peace Jessie). To force a visibly traumatized and malnourished Ellie (who also recently became a mother) to cross the country again to find and kill Abby has to be the most selfish thing ever.

I really love The Last of Us Part II, but this part bothered me.

Click to shrink...

I look at it like this.

Before what happened at the theater, they were about to be able to walk away with no casualties. Then Abby jumps him, and he gets a eye blown out, a limp, but more so, Jesse gets killed, and Ellie and Dina themselves almost die.

That's what made it so he couldn't let it go.

 

[Shoot]

I look at it like this.

Before what happened at the theater, they were about to be able to walk away with no casualties. Then Abby jumps him, and he gets a eye blown out, a limp, but more so, Jesse gets killed, and Ellie and Dina themselves almost die.

That's what made it so he couldn't let it go.

Click to shrink...

I feel like this could have been communicated a little better through a note or additional dialogue, but it makes sense. I suppose I will have to accept that.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

I feel like this could have been communicated a little better through a note or additional dialogue, but it makes sense. I suppose I will have to accept that.

Click to shrink...

Yup.
We know a ton of things were cut and shifted around during production, so maybe a scene making Tommy's change of heart was one of the ones that ended up being cut?
I think the game manages to communicate everything else about its story exceptionally well, but this will always rub me a little wrong.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I didn't watch all of it, just the parts pertaining to the epilogue and where Ellie left for. I don't think I buy that neither Neil nor Ashley have put any thought into where Ellie is going.

 

[BoxManLocke]

Yup.
We know a ton of things were cut and shifted around during production, so maybe a scene making Tommy's change of heart was one of the ones that ended up being cut?
I think the game manages to communicate everything else about its story exceptionally well, but this will always rub me a little wrong.

Click to shrink...

I said it in another thread, repeating here :

The journey back to Jackson would have taken them weeks, perhaps months considering the state they were all in.

He had to do all this with a potentially lethal head wound and crippling leg wound. All of this, most likely, without any kind of pain meds.

All he had to think about was his pain, what he lost, and the person who caused all of it.

It's more than enough to make him the man he is now.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

I said it in another thread, repeating here :

The journey back to Jackson would have taken them weeks, perhaps months considering the state they were all in.

He had to do all this with a potentially lethal head wound and crippling leg wound. All of this, most likely, without any kind of pain meds.

All he had to think about was his pain, what he lost, and the person who caused all of it.

It's more than enough to make him the man he is now.

Click to shrink...

I agree that this is a valid interpretation, but there is literally nothing in the game hinting at this, not one note, just Tommy being ready to forgive in one cutscene and when we next see him, he's bullying and guilt tripping visibly traumatised Ellie into leaving her family and going somewhere to probably get killed.
Your explanation makes sense, but it's close to head cannon given the absence of evidence of in the actual game.

 

[BoxManLocke]

I agree that this is a valid interpretation, but there is literally nothing in the game hinting at this, not one note, just Tommy being ready to forgive in one cutscene and when we next see him, he's bullying and guilt tripping visibly traumatised Ellie into leaving her family and going somewhere to probably get killed.
Your explanation makes sense, but it's close to head cannon given the absence of evidence of in the actual game.

Click to shrink...

Totally agree that it would've been easy to fit like a couple lines of dialogue between Ellie and Dina or a journal entry or something.

 

[Samiya]

Listening to this, I sometimes wish that Kinda Funny guy would stop talking and let his interviewees actually do the talking. I mean, people want to listen to them, not Greg from Kinda Funny. It can be a bit frustrating that he just talks and talks and talks without pause, even to the extent that Druckmann forgot what the initial question was at one point

 

[KG]

Man, whenever I see Troy Baker's face now i always associate him with the underwear perv from Death Stranding, lol

 

[dosh]

Listening to this, I sometimes wish that Kinda Funny guy would stop talking and let his interviewees actually do the talking. I mean, people want to listen to them, not Greg from Kinda Funny. It can be a bit frustrating that he just talks and talks and talks without pause, even to the extent that Druckmann forgot what the initial question was at one point

Click to shrink...

I was thinking the same thing watching the video. I mean, I like that he goes for a more natural discussion, but at some point I'm not really interested in what he thinks of Part II and how he felt during some scenes when the directors and main actors are also there and ready to talk about a game that was a big part of their life for a long, long time.

 

[BrassDragon]

Listening to this, I sometimes wish that Kinda Funny guy would stop talking and let his interviewees actually do the talking. I mean, people want to listen to them, not Greg from Kinda Funny. It can be a bit frustrating that he just talks and talks and talks without pause, even to the extent that Druckmann forgot what the initial question was at one point

Click to shrink...

Brace yourself for the follow-up with Laura Bailey when he monologues about the exact same points of the first spoiler cast while Laura tries to express a complex thought.

 

[Aprikurt]

Listening to this, I sometimes wish that Kinda Funny guy would stop talking and let his interviewees actually do the talking. I mean, people want to listen to them, not Greg from Kinda Funny. It can be a bit frustrating that he just talks and talks and talks without pause, even to the extent that Druckmann forgot what the initial question was at one point

Click to shrink...

I agree. This has got to be the biggest cardinal sin as an interviewer right? You're there to facilitate discussion, nobody cares what you think.