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Where do you stand now?

  • Yes, the dogs have done it.

    Votes: 905 63.9%
  • No, I’m a cat person.

    Votes: 199 14.0%
  • The dogs have done it and I'm a cat person.

    Votes: 313 22.1%

  • Total voters
    1,417

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,973
I can't seem to find the answer to this specific question across the various previews.

does the game play the way the first trailer presented it Or does it just come close?

i haven't watched all the previews just easy allies, ign and the official nd footage.

easy allies sort of touched on it but I feel like he didn't actually answer the question. It sounded more like he was saying it came close. I mean it sounds like is going to be bloody amazing but is it going to be THAT specifically amazing like the guy with lots of arrows in him talking to you before dying and Ellie being thrown over the counter. Is that stuff going to be happening? i mean I know I'm being nit picky about wanting those things and I never truly believed the game could end up being just like that but damn I want it to be.

can anyone tell me if I'm wrong and my expectations might just be met here?
We didn't see any of the big human enemies, so we don't know, I don't think they were in the 3hours the press had either as that was split between the start of the game just after the E3 demo and the part with the B-roll i think. I wouldn't expect them to talk to you like the E3 guy does,that transition back to Ellie in Tommy's camp probably won't happen in games, so it was probably in cutscene mode after he drops to his knees or it's the opening level I guess, ND do like a good time jump, but they probably drop to their knees if hit enough with none lethal blows I'd assume.
As for how dynamic the fight is? Also unknown, but enemies interacted with the environment when fist fightin in U4, so possible it's been improved upon.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Now that you say that, I wonder why DF hasn't released anything yet considering how high profile ND is and how technically proficient TLOU2 promises to be.
Trailer anaylsis is usually John or my work and I was on holiday and John was working on a wonderful video during the week as this footage came out. Sadly a lot of people did not watch John's great video on the Surge 2's engine and technical development, which is so much more interesting than an honestly bog-standard trailer analysis.

John and Tom though will have something out very soon.
 
OP
OP
Equanimity

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Trailer anaylsis is usually John or my work and I was on holiday and John was working on a wonderful video during the week as this footage came out. Sadly a lot of people did not watch John's great video on the Surge 2's engine and technical development, which is so much more interesting than an honestly bog-standard trailer analysis.

John and Tom though will have something out very soon.

Wait, what?

Are we going to get a bog standard trailer analysis or an informed/detailed one?

Kind of confused with your wording there.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
Trailer anaylsis is usually John or my work and I was on holiday and John was working on a wonderful video during the week as this footage came out. Sadly a lot of people did not watch John's great video on the Surge 2's engine and technical development, which is so much more interesting than an honestly bog-standard trailer analysis.

John and Tom though will have something out very soon.

Sounds good! Btw, my comment wasn't criticism... it was curiosity. Also, what you find more interesting, isn't necessary the same for others.

Either way, you guys decide what to work on and how to schedule it, it's okay.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Wait, what?

Are we going to get a bog standard trailer analysis or an informed/detailed one?

Kind of confused with your wording there.
Eh? He said John and Tom were doing it, not him.
I think it's sad that people don't address his rightfully complain about not many people watching the video for The Surge 2 but want a trailer analysis that at least Dictator seems to find rather a standard thing to do for DF.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Maybe I'm not fully informed about the enhancements MS is offering via BC... Are they providing upgrages for anything other than resolution and steadier or sometimes a bit higher framerate?
A bit higher is "not fully informed", yes.
For 360 games they actually do quite a lot, for select games even native 4k.
Here is an article:
For performance enhancements check out vgtech on YouTube.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Wait, what?

Are we going to get a bog standard trailer analysis or an informed/detailed one?

Kind of confused with your wording there.
I did not do the work, Tom is on it and John worked on the V/O with him. I am not sure to its level of detail or depth - but since it is a trailer, it invariably can only be skin deep! I say "bog-standard "since I think our trailer analysis will be similar to what we have done in the past, not my work necessarily, but other trailer work we have done before. It is not like this will be done in any different way that makes it more or less exciting!
Sounds good! Btw, my comment wasn't criticism... it was curiosity. Also, what you find more interesting, isn't necessary the same for others.
Oh! I did not read it as criticism so no worries.

I agree it is a matter of taste as to what one might find interesting, but there is only so much "preaching to the choir" we can perform at times regarding content before it gets tiresome or tedious if you get what I mean. I think DF walks a fine line regarding how we talk about a game at times. A lot of people want us to look at the b-roll and trailer for this game for example, yet at the same time, it is just b-roll and a trailer so it only offers up a comparatively small amount of reliable information before the game comes out. We have this trouble all the time with trailers - people who have a vested interest in a platform or game series want us to look at them, but we sometimes have limited things to say. Or at least limited postive things to say. For example, when I watch a game trailer I look for artefacts or real time rendering limitations and think about those things, that is how I narrow down what techniques are on display, through their imperfections. Do people really want to watch a trailer analysis video that points at the flaws of rendering in their favourite video game? Or do they want to see something which aligns to their hype quotient and is just talking about "how good it looks"?

It is hard - here I was spending this morning watching the b-roll and looking at the official screenshots but the things that stuck out to me were the artefacts or imperfections.
I think it's sad that people don't address his rightfully complain about not many people watching the video for The Surge 2 but want a trailer analysis that at least Dictator seems to find rather a standard thing to do for DF.

Yeah thanks, you read what I wrote much better than I probably wrote it. hah.

Like you say, a trailer analysis video is very much so standard content and ephemeral. How a game is technically made, warts and all, and a look behind the curtains is actually really rare as I see it. The lack of reception is disappointing.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
I did not do the work, Tom is on it and John worked on the V/O with him. I am not sure to its level of detail or depth - but since it is a trailer, it invariably can only be skin deep! I say "bog-standard "since I think our trailer analysis will be similar to what we have done in the past, not my work necessarily, but other trailer work we have done before. It is not like this will be done in any different way that makes it more or less exciting!

Oh! I did not read it as criticism so no worries.

I agree it is a matter of taste as to what one might find interesting, but there is only so much "preaching to the choir" we can perform at times regarding content before it gets tiresome or tedious if you get what I mean. I think DF walks a fine line regarding how we talk about a game at times. A lot of people want us to look at the b-roll and trailer for this game for example, yet at the same time, it is just b-roll and a trailer so it only offers up a comparatively small amount of reliable information before the game comes out. We have this trouble all the time with trailers - people who have a vested interest in a platform or game series want us to look at them, but we sometimes have limited things to say. Or at least limited postive things to say. For example, when I watch a game trailer I look for artefacts or real time rendering limitations and think about those things, that is how I narrow down what techniques are on display, through their imperfections. Do people really want to watch a trailer analysis video that points at the flaws of rendering in their favourite video game? Or do they want to see something which aligns to their hype quotient and is just talking about "how good it looks"?

It is hard - here I was spending this morning watching the b-roll and looking at the official screenshots but the things that stuck out to me were the artefacts or imperfections.


Yeah thanks, you read what I wrote much better than I probably wrote it. hah.

Like you say, a trailer analysis video is very much so standard content and ephemeral. How a game is technically made, warts and all, and a look behind the curtains is actually really rare as I see it. The lack of reception is disappointing.

I agree that in general, the Surge 2 video offers more interesting stuff for those who are interested in the topic, but I guess it depends on the game that it's covered. I imagine it must be a pain wanting to cover something cool and interesting from a game while knowing many people might not watch it because it isn't said game or developer, etc. whether it's because of fanboyism or actual sole interest in specific games or studios.

Either way, like I said and thankfully you understood, I was curious since covering even a 5 second teaser from a ND game (or some other high profile dev) will probably get you guys a lot of visits, but I understand and appreciate that you guys don't sacrifice other stuff to cover what may be "popular".

Keep on rocking!

Edit: Btw, now that I think about it, I was referring to the b-roll footage. Didn't realize the analysis was going to be for the trailer which is obviously not as interesting, I agree.
 
Last edited:

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
A bit higher is "not fully informed", yes.
For 360 games they actually do quite a lot, for select games even native 4k.
Here is an article:
For performance enhancements check out vgtech on YouTube.

If one of the improvements for some games is almost double the framerate then that's pretty cool. Apart from res and FPS, are there any more improvements like improved shadows, textures, etc.?

I'm not dismissing the improvements, just comparing them to what could be improvements on a proper remaster to gauge if companies may or may not release them next gen regardless of BC enhancements.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
If one of the improvements for some games is almost double the framerate then that's pretty cool. Apart from res and FPS, are there any more improvements like improved shadows, textures, etc.?

I'm not dismissing the improvements, just comparing them to what could be improvements on a proper remaster to gauge if companies may or may not release them next gen regardless of BC enhancements.
The answer is right in my post. Better texture filtering is also implemented by default, as well as applies v-sync so tearing is eliminated.
Edit: there is also a video from DF regarding bc on the X where they show how BF1 is looking drastically different to the S version (it's not only resolution) as well as The Witcher 2 running on bc - more performance can also lead to different lod settings getting applied which apparently has a rather drastis effect compared to other improvements.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
The answer is right in my post. Better texture filtering is also implemented by default, as well as applies v-sync so tearing is eliminated.

Yeah, just saw texture filtering and screen tear solution, although screen tear is pretty much non-existent this gen. I still think there's obviously a market for full blast remasters with additional content regardless of BC, but I guess we'll see next gen if Sony in particular continues with the practice.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Yeah, just saw texture filtering and screen tear solution, although screen tear is pretty much non-existent this gen. I still think there's obviously a market for full blast remasters with additional content regardless of BC, but I guess we'll see next gen if Sony in particular continues with the practice.
Oh, I guess the monetization from Sony this gen was a massive success with the remasters so I'd be surprised to not see it again.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
Oh, I guess the monetization from Sony this gen was a massive success with the remasters so I'd be surprised to not see it again.

I wouldn't be surprised either, but that was the debate I was having and while I feel it's good business if done right and think they will continue releasing them, I'm not sure if they will prefer to benefit from the goodwill of adding considerable improvements for free via BC or if they'll remaster and re-release certain games and charge for them.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I wouldn't be surprised either, but that was the debate I was having and while I feel it's good business if done right and think they will continue releasing them, I'm not sure if they will prefer to benefit from the goodwill of adding considerable improvements for free via BC or if they'll remaster and re-release certain games and charge for them.
That's why people refer to Microsoft as a current "gold standard" for backwards compatibility. I hope Sony will have a similar solution because I will not spend money on games I already own and that are especially not old yet. If they sell patches*and* offer bc then all is good. Just don't force people to buy the games they already own again to play them on PS5, they already did that this gen on PS4.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,492
Indonesia
That's why people refer to Microsoft as a current "gold standard" for backwards compatibility. I hope Sony will have a similar solution because I will not spend money on games I already own and that are especially not old yet. If they sell patches*and* offer bc then all is good. Just don't force people to buy the games they already own again to play them on PS5, they already did that this gen on PS4.
if I understand it right, MS solution is to have dedicated team to port those games one by one, right? I really didn't see Sony ever doing the same approach.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
6,943
if I understand it right, MS solution is to have dedicated team to port those games one by one, right? I really didn't see Sony ever doing the same approach.
Xbox One games just work, it's the same "family" so to say. Microsoft just tested while engineering the X that it would be compatible with every game, that was quite extensive but shows that bc is different on consoles than on PC. Remember how Sony did not allow for boost mode on the Pro right from the start because of unknown compatibility problems.
For 360 games it was different because Microsoft had to repackage the 360 games and tested these games so that they worked as expected. The select titles that got X enhanced of course were even more resource heavy.
For next Xbox and PS5 I expect something that is more like "S -> X" or "Base -> Pro" than what Microsoft did with 360 titles.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
That's why people refer to Microsoft as a current "gold standard" for backwards compatibility. I hope Sony will have a similar solution because I will not spend money on games I already own and that are especially not old yet. If they sell patches*and* offer bc then all is good. Just don't force people to buy the games they already own again to play them on PS5, they already did that this gen on PS4.

Sony will obviously provide BC enhancements, I just don't think they will be as ample as they would be on a properly remastered game.

There's obviously a market for it and nobody should feel forced to buy them. I do, however, think timing is key because releasing a TLOU2 remaster early next gen (for example) would suck for existing owners, specially since PS5 will offer BC.

If done right, existing owners can benefit from what Sony decides are standard BC enhancements and others can enjoy full-on remasters with additional content.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
If done right, existing owners can benefit from what Sony decides are standard BC enhancements and others can enjoy full-on remasters with additional content.
Yep, this would be the best solution for everyone involved and I feel that standard BC is the most important one as it should work with all games and thus every game will get enhancements by default. Relying on the devs to hope that they will provide any resources to games that were released years ago will lead to disappointments.
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
Yep, this would be the best solution for everyone involved and I feel that standard BC is the most important one as it should work with all games and thus every game will get enhancements by default. Relying on the devs to hope that they will provide any resources to games that were released years ago will lead to disappointments.

I agree!
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Like you say, a trailer analysis video is very much so standard content and ephemeral. How a game is technically made, warts and all, and a look behind the curtains is actually really rare as I see it. The lack of reception is disappointing.
well you guys have done this for onrush and now surge. not the biggest games in the world. if you did that kind of indepth behind the scenes on say Gran Tursimo sports or The Last of Us 2, you will get a lot more views for sure. The horizon behind the scenes had 100k views, much more than the 30k views of onrush and surge 2.

i really loved the onrush and horizon videos, i hope you guys dont get disheartened and continue to try and do more of these tech deep dives with the studios. try and see if ND is open to doing something like this. i bet it will get a lot more hits.
 
OP
OP
Equanimity

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Eh? He said John and Tom were doing it, not him.
I think it's sad that people don't address his rightfully complain about not many people watching the video for The Surge 2 but want a trailer analysis that at least Dictator seems to find rather a standard thing to do for DF.

I was confused by the bog standard term he used for the analysis. I get what Dictator is saying about the low numbers for Surge 2 thought. Lack of interest in said game would be a safe assumption.

I did not do the work, Tom is on it and John worked on the V/O with him. I am not sure to its level of detail or depth - but since it is a trailer, it invariably can only be skin deep! I say "bog-standard "since I think our trailer analysis will be similar to what we have done in the past, not my work necessarily, but other trailer work we have done before. It is not like this will be done in any different way that makes it more or less exciting!

Thank you for elaborating on what you said earlier. My confusion has been put to rest, lol.

I'm looking forward to the analysis!
 

S1kkZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,387
Sadly a lot of people did not watch John's great video on the Surge 2's engine and technical development, which is so much more interesting than an honestly bog-standard trailer analysis.
i think that has more to do with the game and not with the video itself. people dont seem to care about surge 2 (like at all). i think thats mostly because of the release date, right next to bl3 and zelda.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
i think that has more to do with the game and not with the video itself. people dont seem to care about surge 2 (like at all). i think thats mostly because of the release date, right next to bl3 and zelda.
The fact that it says "Sponsored" right in the title may also turn people off. I mean, personally, I appreciate the transparency but it could lead some people to draw unfavourable conclusions about what kind of video it is. The 40-minute length may also be an issue for some.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
7,709
For example, when I watch a game trailer I look for artefacts or real time rendering limitations and think about those things, that is how I narrow down what techniques are on display, through their imperfections. Do people really want to watch a trailer analysis video that points at the flaws of rendering in their favourite video game? Or do they want to see something which aligns to their hype quotient and is just talking about "how good it looks"?

It is hard - here I was spending this morning watching the b-roll and looking at the official screenshots but the things that stuck out to me were the artefacts or imperfections.


I mean you could talk about both? What stands out that seems to be done well... what are the imperfections etc.. If nothing about TLOU 2 stands out to you and you think it looks mediocre from a visual rendering perspective then I guess you could just say that in your video?

You have have analyzed trailers in the past it looks like so clearly there is a template there...

 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
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May 8, 2019
1,881
They shouldn't not do it because this will kill the PS5 selling point which is the BC. They can just update the game for PS5.

This is a fair point indeed, I could however see a 3 - 4 years waiting period coupled to a definitive version with some serious enhancements to justify the price, GTA V style

Get your patched game, and get your truly enhanced version. One doesn't prevent the other
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
I mean you could talk about both? What stands out that seems to be done well... what are the imperfections etc.. If nothing about TLOU 2 stands out to you and you think it looks mediocre from a visual rendering perspective then I guess you could just say that in your video?

You have have analyzed trailers in the past it looks like so clearly there is a template there...


Yeah there are definitely things we talk about, but that video if you noticed was geared around "what makes it look like a scarlet" version of a game - so not just straight picking apart a current gen thing, but what the video tells us about a next gen product in comparison to a current gen one.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
i think that has more to do with the game and not with the video itself. people dont seem to care about surge 2 (like at all). i think thats mostly because of the release date, right next to bl3 and zelda.
I think it's more about people really don't care about the technical aspects of a game that much in general, they want to know their favorite game looks good and be part of the hype.