I'd have preferred the kill
Fuck player choice though. Not that kind of the game. The story is the story
Fuck player choice though. Not that kind of the game. The story is the story
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The Last of Us Part II - Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter vestan
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To be fair, as far as we know at the end of 1, Joel killed everyone at the hospital. Nothing indicated that anyone else who would be able to pin this on him was left alive. The same is currently the case for Ellie in The Last of Us 2. It's the sort of thing that can be adjusted later if the writers wanted to, same as the end of 1.
While it's true that Ellie could avoid killing most people based on your playstyle, she still canonically kills a number of people in her push for her revenge, and just like with Joel killing the fireflies at the hospital, maybe some of the people Ellie killed have friends who will later investigate the events that led to, say, Nora's death, find out that her (and a number of her friends) tracked down someone in Jackson, and killed him, while also later hearing reports about that same girl they spared at Jackson.
It's the sort of detail that the writers can adjust to suit whatever story they want to write, however, so I don't think it's worth discussing much at this point.
I'm just saying that the entire point did not land as strongly as it should have for me because, as you've said, the game draws a clear line between what murders are meaningful, and what murders are not.
Nice worldview there. There are only winners and losers.
Also, let me give you a choice: lose two fingers right now or be captured by sadistic fucks who will fuck you up for months and eventually crucify you to dehydrate.
Right. Kill her or give me the choice to kill her. Both options are fine tbh.
Is "won" really the term you want to go with here? Thinking in terms of winning and losing is completely missing the point of the game. Neither of them have "won", both of them have been completely broken and lost (in a different sense) friends, family and homes.
There's missing the point and then missing the point. WHEW
you got me wrong, think about every parallel she has with joel ;)
tell me about all those great writers lmao
laughable.
This is a great comparison. It also suggests that although Tommy left Joel because of his actions as a hunter, he eventually takes him back into his life, and so Dina might do the same for Ellie.
Saying the only "meaningful" deaths were in cutscenes feels super dishonest considering the thing that kickstarts the plot of part 2 was killing some random NPC that had no name or face in part 1. That death only mattered so much as it helped us achieve Joel's goals... until it meant more.
Ellie kills A LOT of people in this game - at least, she did for me. And it's hard to call it "self-defense" when she invaded their territory with intent to kill, I don't care who shot first. So I won't lie when I say that, regardless of what the story was trying to say, Ellie sparing Abby does feel a little silly in that moment. I get what they were going for, but Ellie doesn't seem to value human life enough anymore for it to feel like an honest decision. Killing Abby doesn't earn her anything, but I'm not sure it really hurts her either. Why did she suddenly grow a conscience now? It took 100 extra corpses in Santa Barbara for Ellie to realize this whole trip is ill advised?
Similarly, saving Lev was not enough to totally redeem Abby and make me love her character like it seemed to for a lot of people. Abby killed hundreds as well - and she would have just as quickly killed Lev if he hadn't saved her life first.
Neither felt redeemed in that final battle, so I didn't really care who died.
Showing a flashback of Ellie forgiving Joel for something that is pretty much unforgivable and then going back to Ellie forgiving Abby was perfect. You can't fuck with that. It's as happy an ending as we could have gotten.
people really don't acknowledge this to keep their narrative lol
I loved the story. The only thing I got spoiled on pre-release (was otherwise on media blackout for over 2 years) was that you played as Abby for part of the game, and I didn't even know who that was. So needless to say, the beginning of the game with Abby and Joel quite shocked me and I was dreading getting to that part, especially when I realized I was just going to play through Abby's sequence leading up to where we were at in the story on Ellie's side.
However, they fully sold me on Abby and I was truly hurt when Ellie decided to go after Abby and leave behind Dina/baby, and even moreso when at the end she still had to beat her up. I am torn about wanting a Part III, because I actually would love to see more of Abby and Lev, but the reality is they would probably not get a happy ending lol.
However, they fully sold me on Abby and I was truly hurt when Ellie decided to go after Abby and leave behind Dina/baby, and even moreso when at the end she still had to beat her up. I am torn about wanting a Part III, because I actually would love to see more of Abby and Lev, but the reality is they would probably not get a happy ending lol.
The second half did nothing for me. I didn't work. It's the end that pisses me off.
Nicely put. If Ellie could forgive Joel for basically dooming the human race, then it's relatively easy for her to forgive Abby for dooming Joel.
Those two last scenes are exactly the same thing, on the porch with Joel, and in the water with Abby. Ellie learning to forgive the two most important people that have affected her life.
Masterful.
The ending puts things in perspective for me. Quite interesting, a few weeks ago, I was with some of our students in an Anti-Bulling group, and they had a conversation about why people can become evil and how if a choice was given, what would we pick.
This is the same idea. Why does this game go on like this? What makes us evil? Reality is, in this game, we become evil to survive. We become evil to stay alive and avoid being tortured or becoming forced labourers. There is no room for kindness in this type of world, but then you reach a point where enough is enough, killing another person ends up being hollow, and you just end up destroying who you are.
This is the best ending because, at least, it still showed Ellie as being human. A person who always feels and has emotions, not someone who has become cold and bloodthirsty. It shows that killing another human, won't fix things, and won't bring back Joel or Jesse, all it does it continue a cycle of violence that never ends. It needed to end somehow, and Ellie was the bigger person to stop it.
Abby was broken at the end of the game, and reality is, Ellie created new hope in her world, because that act of mercy, goes a very long way. A perfect ending, where we the gamers weren't just in control of a tyrant and monster, but a person who, in the end, had the mercy to forgive.
This is the same idea. Why does this game go on like this? What makes us evil? Reality is, in this game, we become evil to survive. We become evil to stay alive and avoid being tortured or becoming forced labourers. There is no room for kindness in this type of world, but then you reach a point where enough is enough, killing another person ends up being hollow, and you just end up destroying who you are.
This is the best ending because, at least, it still showed Ellie as being human. A person who always feels and has emotions, not someone who has become cold and bloodthirsty. It shows that killing another human, won't fix things, and won't bring back Joel or Jesse, all it does it continue a cycle of violence that never ends. It needed to end somehow, and Ellie was the bigger person to stop it.
Abby was broken at the end of the game, and reality is, Ellie created new hope in her world, because that act of mercy, goes a very long way. A perfect ending, where we the gamers weren't just in control of a tyrant and monster, but a person who, in the end, had the mercy to forgive.
It's funny how some people see Abby as a monster and not Ellie
Ellie and Tommy killed like 7 of Abby's friends, including a freaking pregnant woman, plus a lot of WLFs
Abby killed Joel and Jessie. And spared Ellie TWICE, Dina and Tommy once.
So who is the fucking monster?
"Oh but she killed Joel", such a juvenile take
Ellie and Tommy killed like 7 of Abby's friends, including a freaking pregnant woman, plus a lot of WLFs
Abby killed Joel and Jessie. And spared Ellie TWICE, Dina and Tommy once.
So who is the fucking monster?
"Oh but she killed Joel", such a juvenile take
Yes, thank you. Frankly, I'm getting exhausted wading through these surface level assessments that just completely miss the mark. This game is first and foremost about Ellie reconciling her complex feelings for Joel. It's not a cautionary tale about the dangers of REVENGE or whatever the hell people want to simplify it down to.
I don't know if they could. In 1 Joel/Ellie were at the hospital long enough for people to know their names (and considering Marlene was there, possibly be talked about before their arrival as well). In 2, Ellie never interacted with anyone in Seattle as a friendly, and outside of Abby killed anyone who could've possibly known her name (and that's if anyone knew her name in the first place. Does Abby ever directly say it? She obviously knows Joel's name, but who knows if she was ever told the name of the girl her dad was operating on). I also got the impression that their trip to Jackson was a bit secretive in that only Abby's core group of friends and Isaac knew about.
If there's a 3 and anyone is getting hunted down in it, Abby makes a much better choice since she blatantly killed Isaac in front of who knows how many WLFs.
If there is a third game, it might be cool if Abby and Lev can't find any fireflies, and end up having to go back to Jackson to seek out Ellie, in the only community they know that does exist and is thriving. That'd certainty make for an interesting and contentious dynamic. But I do hope any third title mixes up the environments a bit more too. I don't want loads of Seattle all over again.
I think Dina probably will, especially when she learns Ellie let Abby go. Dina will likely understand that such a decision was a massive and courageous move for Ellie, one that would have taken every fibre of acceptance from her. But who knows.
I think Dina probably will, especially when she learns Ellie let Abby go. Dina will likely understand that such a decision was a massive and courageous move for Ellie, one that would have taken every fibre of acceptance from her. But who knows.
She killed the person that knowingly and willingly stopped millions of lives from being saved, this whole discourse around Abby and the hatred is really bizarre to me. Her motivations are pretty clear and entirely justifiable.
I really have no idea why people dislike the story in this game so much. I am really curious. none of the alternative stories people have proposed sound better at all.
it also misses what the story is trying to tell completely
people are going to end up treating Abby in the same way they treat Skylar in Breaking Bad
A lot seem to boil down to "Abby killed Joel. I loved Joel... why didn't Abby die???"
She does not know Ellie's name. I don't think anyone in Seattle does. Even at the end, Abby just refers to her as "You".
I don't know how many Fireflies even knew her name, they pretty much considered her cargo and in the first game I believe the in-game notes just refer to her as the infected subject.
Oh, Abby's killing of Joel is a HUNDRED times more justifiable than what Joel did. That's the beauty of it.
I needed to kill Abby as much as Ellie did. By the end I didn't care anymore, not because the writers worked their magic on me. Game felt like it was never ending, same as me holding onto my hatred for Abby. By the time it was over, I let it go. The one thing that somewhat saved Abby for me was not killing Diana. But I still enjoyed beating the shit out of her at the end.
I understood where our girl (Ellie) was coming from, same way I understood what Joel did in the hospital. I would do it again. I got enough enjoyment seeing Abby's friends die off. I'm happy Ellie and Joel found a little bit of peace before he was killed.
And even though I was cool with letting Abby go, I never wanna see her again.
I understood where our girl (Ellie) was coming from, same way I understood what Joel did in the hospital. I would do it again. I got enough enjoyment seeing Abby's friends die off. I'm happy Ellie and Joel found a little bit of peace before he was killed.
And even though I was cool with letting Abby go, I never wanna see her again.
Argh, no again. Ready my previous posts. I posted it many times.
In the end. Both had it coming. Joel and Abby. Only one died. The most hated character I have ever seen survives.
Eh I get what you're saying and mostly agree, but Abby was able to track down Ellie the same day using a map left at the bodies of her friends. If ND wanted to go that route, they can do whatever they want like someone investigating and finding the base at the theater, leading back to Jackson or whatever else. It's not that hard.
I wouldn't say that's the lesson of TLOU2 at all, and I would also add that I think the ending works because of the amount of bloodshed the player has gone through by the end. By the end you're just tired and want Ellie to stop.
Thought I'd a do a separate thread here instead of just discussing in the spoiler thread so we can focus specifically on that boss battle here.
First off, I absolutely love ND's games as they are just tailored to my personal preferences for what I enjoy in games in general. That being said, I've always thought where they were weakest is at doing really intense and exhilarating boss battles. I mean does uncharted really even have bosses? With TLOU part I the only boss battles really are the first bloater in the school, and then David.
Now in TLOU part II I felt they really nailed the boss battles, there still weren't a lot in general, but the two melee boss battles with the super jacked bad guys were super intense and the dodge mechanic made them way more intense. Then there was the rat king boss and that whole hospital section was peak resident evil for me with a resident evil style scary as fuck boss.
However, the best boss battle in this game and I could not believe it was happening when it happened was fucking squaring off against Ellie.
Like you play the entire game with her and it ends on a cliff hanger as you switch to who you believe is the game's antagonist so you can see her story. Once you get back to that point I assumed that this was the game's climax and I would revert to controlling Ellie against Abby, and then I realize this game is actually making me fight its protagonist, I couldn't fucking believe it but at the same time it was such an awesome thing to do. Furthermore, the boss battle itself is fucking awesome and a major improvement from the David boss battle in the first game. Seeing Ellie use all her gear and even make traps, and she's fucking menacing to go up against. Just an absolute amazing experience that I couldn't believe had happened. Has any other game done this before, take the game's protagonist and have you build them up and max their gear and then make you square off against them possibly thinking you might kill them? Meta Gear kind of did it in reverse where the first game you have to kill big boss and in future sequels has you control big boss and learn his backstory, but I'm really curious if any other game has done what naughty dog did here in making their beloved character be an actual boss battle, and I'm assuming many others also thought this might be the game's final boss battle and endgame. Absolutely phenomenal!
First off, I absolutely love ND's games as they are just tailored to my personal preferences for what I enjoy in games in general. That being said, I've always thought where they were weakest is at doing really intense and exhilarating boss battles. I mean does uncharted really even have bosses? With TLOU part I the only boss battles really are the first bloater in the school, and then David.
Now in TLOU part II I felt they really nailed the boss battles, there still weren't a lot in general, but the two melee boss battles with the super jacked bad guys were super intense and the dodge mechanic made them way more intense. Then there was the rat king boss and that whole hospital section was peak resident evil for me with a resident evil style scary as fuck boss.
However, the best boss battle in this game and I could not believe it was happening when it happened was fucking squaring off against Ellie.
Like you play the entire game with her and it ends on a cliff hanger as you switch to who you believe is the game's antagonist so you can see her story. Once you get back to that point I assumed that this was the game's climax and I would revert to controlling Ellie against Abby, and then I realize this game is actually making me fight its protagonist, I couldn't fucking believe it but at the same time it was such an awesome thing to do. Furthermore, the boss battle itself is fucking awesome and a major improvement from the David boss battle in the first game. Seeing Ellie use all her gear and even make traps, and she's fucking menacing to go up against. Just an absolute amazing experience that I couldn't believe had happened. Has any other game done this before, take the game's protagonist and have you build them up and max their gear and then make you square off against them possibly thinking you might kill them? Meta Gear kind of did it in reverse where the first game you have to kill big boss and in future sequels has you control big boss and learn his backstory, but I'm really curious if any other game has done what naughty dog did here in making their beloved character be an actual boss battle, and I'm assuming many others also thought this might be the game's final boss battle and endgame. Absolutely phenomenal!
They didn't have the same arc, they had parallels to their themes. Ellie was on the path to revenge and slowly realizing it might not be worth it. Abby already had her revenge and slowly realized that it may have not been worth it. Similar in nature, but entirely different points. Abby in fact is more like Joel's arc in LoU 1, in that guilt eventually consumes her to make things "right" and comes to trying to save a child's life. Even more so, while Abby's choice was "selfish" to make her feel better, she was saving a little boy's life from a cult. Yes Joel saved Ellie's life, but at the cost of a cure and Ellie's life meaning something (according to her).
I was also not expecting boos battles in this game and while the Ellie boss fight was good the big monster in the hospital was incredible. Felt like RE.
That random NPC with no name or face also had no real weapon though (he had a scalpel, sure, but that's not going to do much against a guy walking around with a bunch of guns), and the other random NPCs with no names or faces straight up cowered when confronted by you and begged you not to kill them (which you could do if you choose to). That alone made their deaths different than the other random NPCs you ran into throughout the game.
It was awesome seeing Ellie crouch down during the fight and see her rummage through her backpack to craft stuff. Just like you would do with her for normal gameplay.
This. The ending would've been hollow if Ellie had killed her.
Same. I've never felt so at odds with what the character was doing in game than I was with Ellie during that final fight. I understood what she thought she was doing but I couldn't bear to see her go through with it. I love Ellie, I named my dog Ellie haha, I was so relieved when she let her go. Her letting Abby go is one of very few glimmers of hope throughout the whole game, and she needed to do it to save herself.
I dont think that's true. Theres a vocal minority that are much louder given the platforms these days but theres loads of people who like Abby, I love Abby. I remember Raiden being universally reviled at the time.
I don't even care if it's a happy ending for Ellie or Abby, but it's a logical best case scenario ending. It makes sense. Killing Abby doesn't. It's what Ellie would do. It'd be out of character to do anything else. There'd be no satisfaction in drowning Abby for Ellie or the player.
Parrallels don't have the same effect when both characters come to the same conclusion. It's redundant, especially when Ellie's attitude was leaning away from that conclusion.
With the emphasis the game puts on humanizing the people Ellie kills I think it's normal for the player to want her to stop at some point, I just think it's kinda cheap for her to stop only when it's final boss time with a named character.
Spec Ops The Line kinda does this too where
after you decide not to kill yourself you're given the choice to put your gun down and go home, only it's implied that it might be a hallucination because after everything you've done, why do you deserve salvation?
I want to emphasize that there's nuance to this I'm missing, and I should probably bail on the thread entirely before I get into an argument about the game's quality when I've yet to play it myself. I'm just talking about broad theming here in lieu of execution.
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