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The Last of Us 2: Is Empathy Bad?
- Thread starter Spinluck
- Start date
This video is fine but I feel like there are no new insights to be found here. The things he talks about have been said ad nauseum in pretty much any discussion thread about TLOU2. Why some people don't like playing as Abby, the comparisons between Abby and Joel, etc... I've read it all before right on this very forum in the super long discussion threads for the game. I'm not sure this warrants an entirely new thread.
I feel like some interesting insights in regards to people's capacity for empathy were made here that I did not quite see anywhere else. Especially since it came from a philosophy Youtube channel and not a gaming one. If mods see it as unnecessary feel free to lock.
Very good analysis, and I enjoyed the insightful explanations of cognitive empathy, affective empathy, and rational compassion. Wisecrack are usually very good at deconstructing storytelling, I watch them often but I didn't know they were doing gaming. They are much more academic than most reviewers and are not afraid of proper references in psychology.
There are plenty of people who played that game and saw Ellie and Abby and didn't say they hated either. I like Ellie as a character way more but I understand Abbys point of view. Her father was killed. She only sees it that way. She doesnt know or think about Joels motives for taking the actions he did (I see nothing wrong with what Joel did he did what any loving father would do. He loves Ellie and will save her from these people who won't tell them the truth about the experimentation). All she knows is Joel did what he did. And revenge is what she believes will make things better.
You can play this game and come to grips with all of the different viewpoints that drive the different characters.
Empathy is good.
You can play this game and come to grips with all of the different viewpoints that drive the different characters.
Empathy is good.
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Sure thing:
-the game does a great job of displaying how messy human connection can be even when we choose to empathize it may not be the idealistic key to coexistence that we'd like to believe it to be
-the video breaks down to forms of empathy (affective and cognitive) and how both have come into play in TLoU & TLoU2's storytelling
-they argue that Joel's empathy for Ellie blinds him of his empathy for humanity, therefore, making his morally ambiguous decision at the end of TLoU. this same blindspot can be applied to Ellie, Abby, and the players themselves showing the cost that comes with that emotional attachment/resonance
-empathy and ethics get quite murky when they intersect. to better discern one or the other and make the best choices for those close to us and estranged, we might look towards rational compassion as it keeps us from ignoring the larger/broader context of things that comes with resorting to empathy which can be linear in its reach
highly recommend you watch it, they do a much better job than I.
It's a clickbait title, I don't think they are actually arguing that empathy is bad, but just offering a philosophical way of looking at it in the context of this game.
Thanks, appreciate it. I'll watch when I can.
Broadly I thought the game did a fantastic job of switching up who I'm empathising with. Initially I was firmly on Ellie's side, partially because of the emotional link I had with her and Joel from the first game - so when Joel is killed, I wanted revenge, I was glad to knife my way though the WLF as brutally as possible and the game does a great job of presenting them in a villainous light though the various texts you find scattered about.
And then you start getting snippets of story from Abby's perspective and then you're playing as her on the other side of the story and without really wanting to Ellie becomes the monster, the villain, and I'm empathising with Abby, I'm firmly on her side as this monstrous psychotic Ellie scythes her way through Abby's friends.
And intertwined with all this is the Scars who you initially view entirely through the lens of the WLF, your view entirely coloured by the WLF/Scar war and you see them as pure one note religious crazies, but of course that is turned on its head when you play as Abby and you're in the Scar village and get a sense of their society and although empathy with the Scars is definitely a bit of a stretch, at least you can see a broader view of their motivations.
It's a wonderfully grey story, full of complex people with complicated emotions and motivations and it quite expertly, I thought, plays with who you believe to be the bad guy.
Watched this earlier. Really, really did not agree with their take, and I don't think "Is empathy bad actually?" the message of TLOU2.
Although it retreads familiar ground as far as the messaging of the game goes. I really enjoyed the technical breakdown of the differing types of empathy.
The title is clickbait.
This is a fantastic video. I loved the explanations of cognitive and affective empathy and the distinction between these and rational compassion.
This really affirms my belief that TLOU2 was a masterpiece of interactive storytelling. I really applaud ND for having the balls to write and produce a game with a story as bold as they did.
This really affirms my belief that TLOU2 was a masterpiece of interactive storytelling. I really applaud ND for having the balls to write and produce a game with a story as bold as they did.
The "problem" with the part 2 is that it hinges on being effective if you go in completely blind and don't know Abby's reason in killing Joel until you play as her. The player is supposed to go "oh! She killed Joel because he killed her dad, who was the surgeon! Now it makes sense!" Her play time is meant to answer is she really the monster that the player & Ellie think she is and the answer is at first yes, Than lev & yara come into the picture & the player sees her change and the realization that Abby is not the monster they think she is and that she is just as lost as Ellie is.
The reason this falls apart is mainly because of the leaks that caused people to make & stick with whatever ever narrative they got from those leaks! Instead of being open to the story, they go in hating it already and close off on changing thier mind because they have to be right for mysterious reason. They just flat out refused to seeing Abby as a character in general.
The reason this falls apart is mainly because of the leaks that caused people to make & stick with whatever ever narrative they got from those leaks! Instead of being open to the story, they go in hating it already and close off on changing thier mind because they have to be right for mysterious reason. They just flat out refused to seeing Abby as a character in general.
Great video, thanks for sharing.
As I then watched people like AngryJoe and other streamers play the game, you could tell their mind was made up from the very moment Abby shows up as they facepalm their way through the game and refuse to even give it a chance. It's disgusting and such a massive disservice to what ND has accomplished here.
I'm really hoping there's more people like us out there who will speak up when awards start going out from all sorts of publications. There's such a vocal backlash that the praise gets drowned out by it. Hopefully that will change a bit, even though I myself feel like not speaking up about how much I love this game, simply because I have friends who truly loathe it.
As someone who avoided the spoilers, I do think you're onto something. The hate that came about was so insane that there's no way some people were going to 180 and admit they were wrong. While I steered clear of the spoilers, I started having serious fears of how bad the game was going to be because I had friends who straight out said there's no way it's going to be good and that "ND have fucked up for sure". I just couldn't believe how damn convinced they were and told them to give it a damn chance.
As I then watched people like AngryJoe and other streamers play the game, you could tell their mind was made up from the very moment Abby shows up as they facepalm their way through the game and refuse to even give it a chance. It's disgusting and such a massive disservice to what ND has accomplished here.
I'm really hoping there's more people like us out there who will speak up when awards start going out from all sorts of publications. There's such a vocal backlash that the praise gets drowned out by it. Hopefully that will change a bit, even though I myself feel like not speaking up about how much I love this game, simply because I have friends who truly loathe it.
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