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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
Any one remember the TLJ thread where the arguments over whether his sacrifice would have worked or not got so intense that people were making short story length posts with frame by frame footage and trying to apply real life math and physics to a movie.

I do!
Not as bad as that time people said that Holdo's plan WOULDN'T have worked because the FO, (those cackling overconfident bad guys), realistically would checked the wreckage for bodies and then figured something was up ad would've hyper jumped BACK to the location to scan Crait and then figured out the resistance was there. Or all the not so subtle implications that these movies are in some way problematic and racist because Finn didn't follow an exact plotline that they thought he would. Also, TLJ is the film that shits on Finn, the one where he's built up and becomes so dedicated to the cause that he's literally willing to die for it. THAT'S the one that shits on him apparently, not the one where it's revealed that he's a coward and also a bit of an asshole for only thinking about Rey and not the bigger picture.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,690
I can't think of one good thing they did with him in TLJ. I really like Finn but it felt like he shouldn't have even been there.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,836
The Force Awakens does a massive disservice to Finn.

"I can't kill these civilians because killing is wrong!"

10 minutes later, after slaughtering many stormtroopers who he probably knew personally and understood were being forced into service

"Whoo! Are we really doing this!? WoooHOO!"

For a guy that was in the servitude of a fascist regime since childhood and went through some serious PTSD... he sure was plucky and happy go lucky after. Whooooo.
 

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
Although its a much better scene than the one we got, it comes off as comical. The dialogue, the reactions, and a regular blaster sending a built woman in a metal suit flying 10 ft in the air even though in the previous scene her armor deflected a shot from a blaster...

Different class of blaster, he picked up a heavy assault troopers megablaster.

Regular blaster:
latest


Megablaster:
latest
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
I enjoyed the chemistry between Finn and Rose and the eccentric DJ. I felt his story beats suited the theme of having a failure and moving beyond it.

It's Poe's Arc I don't really like and he gets away too easily with mutiny, it might have been better if Leia and Holdo and the resistance exiled him and the mutineers and he redeems himself in the third film.

The ending with he kid using the force to grab the brush was obviously symbolism for a new generation of jedi who come from nothing like Rey, she's not alone. It is the perfect ending to close of Rey's reveal.

But it might be interesting to see a more traditional happy alternate ending when Luke was powerful enough to survive the projection and smiling at the sunset, reborn and ready to join the fight. It would have been more crowd pleasing.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,114
NYC
For real. I love TLJ, but the biggest thing I can't just excuse is how Finn and Poe are handled. With Rey spending her time so far from the 'main' action of the movie, those two really could have carried everything else, instead they were needlessly seperated in a way that neither really realized their full potentials as characters.

I still love the move. It's beautifully made but I just think that was a very poor writing choice.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
It did. I honestly really liked Finn's character arc in TFA where he goes from a pathetic selfish coward to a selfless hero through the love and support of other people. I was expecting TLJ to continue on that and instead it just kinda put Finn back to a halfway point and kept him there.

The Force Awakens had basically 3 main characters: Finn, Rey, and Kylo. Finn and Kylo got the best character arcs while Rey's felt really flat. The Last Jedi gives Rey and Kylo a lot of meat, but then Finn just really gets left in the dust.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
For a guy that was in the servitude of a fascist regime since childhood and went through some serious PTSD... he sure was plucky and happy go lucky after. Whooooo.
Literally Luke mere moments after grieving about losing the only person left in his life from his childhood.
gjloyy5.png

mWAfGv2.png


I'm not kidding, that scene LITERALLY starts with him grieving:


In less than two minutes we go from

Mood:"I can't believe he's gone....."

to

Mood:I GOT HIM!! Hell yea dude! :D


SW is not a grimdark series and characters at times very quickly transition from emotional moments to happy go lucky.

It did. I honestly really liked Finn's character arc in TFA where he goes from a pathetic selfish coward to a selfless hero
When does Finn become a selfless hero in TFA? Can you link that scene please? Can you quote that moment in the script? I keep forgetting about that scene for some reason. It's kinda like it doesn't exist. 🤔
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,985
The Force Awakens does a massive disservice to Finn.

"I can't kill these civilians because killing is wrong!"

10 minutes later, after slaughtering many stormtroopers who he probably knew personally and understood were being forced into service

"Whoo! Are we really doing this!? WoooHOO!"

PREACH!!!!

tenor.gif


They baited us with this:

a1eedab0-8a43-0133-9fe2-0e7c926a42af.gif


Then they had him fall near horseshit:

LMrwmRj.gif


Literally Luke mere moments after grieving about losing the only person left in his life from his childhood.



I'm not kidding, that scene LITERALLY starts with him grieving:
In less than two minutes we go from Mood:"I can't believe he's gone....."

to

Mood:I GOT HIM!! Hell yea dude! :D


SW is not a grimdark series.

Was Luke killing the very people he was raised with and knew his entire life and who were forced into service since babies just like himself? No? Then please stop this comparison.
 

BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,764
I liked TLJ but if there is one thing I felt they could have done better, it was giving Finn something better to do. I honestly would have preferred if he stayed on board with Poe but also went along with him to Hux's ship undercover, maybe have him interact with fellow brothers in arms whom he betrayed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
They were desperate and used what they had on hand. And lo and behold it would've led to more unnecessary sacrifice and that was the moment when Poe told everyone to retreat. Poe LITERALLY says nope a

Yes that is what happens in the film and doesn't address what I'm saying. This question of "would the sacrifice have worked" gets asked because of how poorly the Crait battle was done. Hell, in the opening we see the heavy bombers, see their armament, see the consequence of the payload detonating. All serve the purpose of showing and telling they can cause enough damage to the dreadnaught. This same attention to detail is ignored in Crait and there is zero communication to the audience on what the speeders could do or how they could challenges the walkers or weapon. This flaw goes so deep that we never even see one of them fire a shot to giveback the audience an idea of what they can do.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,017
The Force Awakens does a massive disservice to Finn.

"I can't kill these civilians because killing is wrong!"

10 minutes later, after slaughtering many stormtroopers who he probably knew personally and understood were being forced into service

"Whoo! Are we really doing this!? WoooHOO!"
yeahhhhhhhhhhh it was weird that they continued to treat killing storm troopers like they were killing separatist droids AFTER they humanized storm troopers in TFA.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Everytime I think about finn and how lame he's made. I think about marvel and go " Yep this is why this is more relevant to the youth. Anyone can be anything and cool "
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I don't even know what point you're trying to make here.

He held a lightsaber in one movie so the character can't be momentarily frightened and fall backwards?

The logic some of you anti-TLJ people try to throw out there is... interesting.
Their head canon lead them to him becoming a Jedi. He held a lightsaber after all. He did not become a Jedi and that upsets them and the head canon they had set up for him. That's the root of it. The fruit of it is posts like these.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,985
I don't even know what point you're trying to make here.

He held a lightsaber in one movie so the character can't be momentarily frightened and fall backwards?

The logic some of you anti-TLJ people try to throw out there is... interesting.

I ain't explaining my feelings on Finn for the bajillinth time, I'm pretty sure I made like two full threads on him, at least. But to be clear, it's not him being scared or falling down once or twice.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
PREACH!!!!

tenor.gif


They baited us with this:

a1eedab0-8a43-0133-9fe2-0e7c926a42af.gif


Then they had him fall near horseshit:

LMrwmRj.gif




Was Luke killing the very people he was raised with and knew his entire life and who were forced into service since babies just like himself? No? Then please stop this comparison.

That same movie where he held the saber had him drinking shit water next to a fat creature at Nima Outpost, had him knocked on his ass by Rey, had him electrocuted by BB8, had him knocked unconscious by the FO and picked up/dusted off by Rey again, had him tending to Chewie's wounds and Chewie choking him for touching him, had him taken by Rathtars, had him lie to the Resistance about his true motivations for getting on SK Base, had him stationed on SK base for janitor duty.
 

bawjaws

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,582
Honestly, at this point, having done this and every single other discussion about the sequels to fucking death, who gives a fuck?
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
I hope Finn ends up force sensitive and wields his own saber by the end. While I think Rey is a decent protagonist, I truly hope Finn gets to be as pivotal. (Forget Poe, though, he is mostly responsible for everything going to crap in TLJ)
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
Finn was great TFA, he was co-protagonist alongside Rey all the way to the end.

Fin got a HUGE DEMOTION in TLJ and the whole build up post-injury to be revealed that he wakes up in a bag of water post-injury. what a joke and then goes to CASINO NIGHT ZONE WTF.

total demotion and ruining of a character
Yeah pretty much this.
Finn was my favorite character in TFA. He was a lot more relatable than the standard Campbellian archetypes most of other SW characters tend to be.
TLJ Finn was like ROTJ Han where his initial story arc has concluded but the characters is still around and the screewriters don't know what to do with him.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Finn's character had great potential at the start of TFA. An ex stormtrooper, someone who had been on the other side and who was mentally changed by what he saw happening to those around him and what they did.

I thought after we were first introduced to his character that he was going to have some kind of PTSD and be one that would help bridge the gap between the usual face-less stormtroopers and the Jedi/Rebels with a conflict between what he has to do and knowing that those very stormtroopers they are going up against are people he used to know and could have even been friends with.

Instead they pretty much seemed to have said "Fuck it, let's just make him the comic relief!" and ditched his ENTIRE setup, all for fucking laughs.

With TLJ, as most people said, his character felt literally useless, he did nothing meaningful throughout the film and when he finally DID try to do something meaningful to save his friends he was stopped from doing so by an extremely one-sided love interest that just came off way too forced to me.

His character deserved better from the start.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
That same movie where he held the saber had him drinking shit water next to a fat creature at Nima Outpost, had him knocked on his ass by Rey, had him electrocuted by BB8, had him knocked unconscious by the FO and picked up/dusted off by Rey again, had him tending to Chewie's wounds and Chewie choking him for touching him, had him taken by Rathtars, had him lie to the Resistance about his true motivations for getting on SK Base, had him stationed on SK base for janitor duty.
I'm telling you: we're not even debating reality with people; we're debating their head canon. What they imagine to be or could have been instead of what was.

makes these conversations impossible.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
Yes that is what happens in the film and doesn't address what I'm saying. This question of "would the sacrifice have worked" gets asked because of how poorly the Crait battle was done. Hell, in the opening we see the heavy bombers, see their armament, see the consequence of the payload detonating. All serve the purpose of showing and telling they can cause enough damage to the dreadnaught. This same attention to detail is ignored in Crait and there is zero communication to the audience on what the speeders could do or how they could challenges the walkers or weapon.
Because they spend more time communicating that it's a desperate and frankly really bad course of action.
Was Luke killing the very people he was raised with and knew his entire life and who were forced into service since babies just like himself?
Is Finn supposed to be sympathetic to the space nazis who're way more committed than he was?

That same movie where he held the saber had him drinking shit water next to a fat creature at Nima Outpost, had him knocked on his ass by Rey, had him electrocuted by BB8, had him knocked unconscious by the FO and picked up/dusted off by Rey again, had him tending to Chewie's wounds and Chewie choking him for touching him, had him taken by Rathtars, had him lie to the Resistance about his true motivations for getting on SK Base, had him stationed on SK base for janitor duty.
Exactly, this narrative that TFA treated Finn super respectfully is fucking ridiculous. He was less of a comic relief character in that TLJ than he was in TFA.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
PREACH!!!!

tenor.gif


They baited us with this:

a1eedab0-8a43-0133-9fe2-0e7c926a42af.gif


Then they had him fall near horseshit:

Yeah, they squandered him and his background as a Stormtrooper.

He should've been more untrusting of the resistance at first or weary of attempting to fight the First Order.

Instead they have him crack jokes and act like he's just some plucky kid.

It's a testament to how charming Boyega can be that we still liked him despite the shoddy material he was given.
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,028
Laughed out loud at the "saving what we love" scene as the rebel cave was obliterated in the background. What the fuck were they thinking? Finn loved the rebellion and all the people in that cave. He just tried to save them. Why did you stop him?!

But... Wouldn't his sacrifice be in vain? He wasn't going to make it.

Also, everyone made it out regardless, with Finn ALIVE.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
I think I might have had Phasma somehow tailing them on Canto Blight, chasing them on those space horses or making a deal with the war lords to pick them up from jail, so there was more intensity and his final battle with Phasma means more.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,485
New York
I loved most of the film for the most part. Rey, Luke and Kylo were handled very well I think. The rest though, I don't really care for.

I like what they were trying to do with Finn, Poe and so on. Teaching them hard lessons and forcing moments of growth are good, but I did not care for the execution much at all. It felt hackneyed and cheap. Holdo is needlessly antagonistic towards Poe when they first meet. Their entire encounter felt really contrived and unrealistic only existing to goad Poe into being disobedient rather than there actually being a real conflict of ideas. Then the entire Master Code Breaker and Canto Bight stuff felt like it was out of a film made for 8 year olds with how juvenile the messaging, presentation and events were. With Finn having absolutely nothing to do and acting like a clown most of the time while Rose was actually trying to complete the mission. Their entire plan never felt real, it was hopelessly naive and telegraphed from the start as doomed to fail to teach them a lesson and it sapped all interest or believability from it for me. It relied way too much on conveniently withheld information instead of actual disagreements and conflicts.

It would have been a lot better had Holdo told Poe her plan and he just straight up didn't believe it would work and went rogue because he thought she'd get everyone killed, not because she withheld the info from him and he just assumed she was incompetent as a result, despite praising her past victories and prestige. After that have them just infiltrate the Supremacy, skip Canto Bight, and get in over their heads while there with time to actually do something meaningful with Finn and his past with the FO prior to his attempted self sacrifice on Crait.
 

Figgles

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,568
I say it every time TLJ comes up. It's half one of the best Star Wars movies, and half one of the worst. The Kylo, Rey, Luke arc was OT quality, and the rest was prequel level. It really feels like it was made by 2 different directors.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
This is actually my biggest issue with the movie -- this scene not being in it.

Honestly, every future release should have this reedited into the film because it adds so much. It would be the opposite of the OT additions.
It does so much for both characters in it. I'd be really fucking pissed if I were either of the actors.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
Yeah, they squandered him and his background as a Stormtrooper.

He should've been more untrusting of the resistance at first or weary of attempting to fight the First Order.

Instead they have him crack jokes and act like he's just some plucky kid.

It's a testament to how charming Boyega can be that we still liked him despite the shoddy material he was given.
His entire character arc in TFA and the TLJ was about how weary he was at the idea of fighting the first Order, he literally thought the resistance was fucked and thus tried to leave on more than one occasion
I'm telling you: we're not even debating reality with people; we're debating their head canon. What they imagine to be or could have been instead of what was.

makes these conversations impossible.
Seriously it's hella frustrating. Like it's literally poor and worse, REPETITIVE discourse because it's people constantly re-explaining the actual events of these films, where people make a SHIT TON of absolutely ludicrous claims, NEVER provide receipts, and either dip or ignore any request for something to back up their description of the film's events. While literally posting revisionist history as often as possible, why that type of discourse is allowed is beyond me but it generally makes SW one of the more tiring subjects to discuss. :(
 

anaa

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jun 30, 2019
1,555
they absolutely did him dirty in TLJ, especially after going to so much trouble to set him up as a central character in TFA. was disappointing to say the least.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,440
I'm with BossAttack, the original sin is on TFA, specifically the marketing. Not on TLJ.

I have my issues with Finn's arc due to them not leaning on any of the interesting angles enough. But I still like the character.

If the character doesn't do much in IX, then the blame is completely on JJ. For the whole arc imo.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Exactly, this narrative that TFA treated Finn super respectfully is fucking ridiculous. He was less of a comic relief character in that TLJ than he was in TFA.
Yea. Finn was always a goof with a good heart but was more concerned with self preservation than the needs of the galaxy.

Don't see why that characterization would change in TLJ because he picked up a saber to help his friend
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,985
And yet, here you are.

Here you go:

Alright, time to post a little bit of my feelings regarding Finn. I'll just start by saying he started with a lot of potential, a defecting Stormtrooper is about the coolest backstory you can think of, super easy stuff to work with. However, JJ and Co. were cowardly as fuck and didn't want the audience to hate Finn starting out and came up with the brain-washed, kidnapped baby bit to make him appealing from the start. Already they were screwing with his character. Now, Finn gets some good serious moments in TFA, but it's also the movie where he is shown to be a baffoon, HARD. The only reason we didn't riot in the film is because A) Boyega is charming as hell, B) His serious moments were legit great, and C) We thought it was building to something better.

Finn is shown to be a complete clutz in TFA, he is constantly shat on the entire movie. Now, this by itself isn't a horrible thing. People only tend to remember Luke Skywalker as a bad ass Jedi Knight. But, in ANH, Luke Skywalker was no Mary Sue or whatever. He was also a complete clutz. Luke gets:
-Bossed around by his aunt and uncle.
-Knocked out by sand people.
-Tossed around by those criminal scum in the Mos Eisely Bar.
-Han Solo tells him he's a dumb farm kid and no good pilot within their first meeting.
-Han Solo proceeds to shit on him the entire movie.
-Gets called a "little short for a Stormtrooper" by the princess he's rescuing.
-Gets pulled underwater by a trash monster.

You get the point. But, this is called development. Luke starts out as a loveable dork and becomes a fookin Jedi Master. That said, Luke's dumbheaded clumisness is nowhere near Finn's level in TFA.

To clarify, here's a collection of what I call "Finn Baffonery Moments:"

DItinOA.gif


cZAJQ3s.gif


OLlJVyd.gif


DubukHy.gif


4ja1Vql.gif


NVEF95V.gif



But, we forgive a lot of this because of moments like this:



UP NEXT: We examine him in TLJ.



Let's now continue to TLJ, remember being a clutz can be fine if it's built towards something. Luke Skywalker was a clutz but when Empire hit he was much more focused, serious, he was becoming a Jedi Knight. While he ends up losing at the end, it's not treated as some joke but as someone giving it their all and losing nonetheless. With that said, let's look at Finn, the co-lead of the last film. How is he reintroduced to us?

With a joke re-establishing his clumsiness to the audience. The fact that he's a buffoon.

1d4kUgZ.gif


tFN8oKv.gif


We are off to a great start. Of course, it only gets "better" from there. He quickly meets up with Rose who proceeds to treat him like a child the entire movie, constantly dragging him around, reminding him the importance of their mission, reminding him, a slave, that slavery exists, and generally talking down to him.

RzmWQ5m.gif


cNmrpih.gif


eLQn5Dm.gif



Don't forget my favorite part where he's scared so bad by a alien horse, he lands right next to steaming pile of horse shit. Naturally, Rose is unfazed.

SXWjofW.gif


Thus, despite all the events of TFA, Finn is still a damn buffoon who gets clowned by everyone much of the whole movie. He doesn't really grow, but instead circles around the same character arc he had in the first movie. Also, Rose's attitude towards him the whole movie is what makes the kiss feels so weird and creepy at the end. At no point in the film does it look like she's attracted to Finn, she's constantly treating him as a child, as I said before. I think the worst moment for me is when they actually infiltrate Snoke's ship and Finn gets ultra serious since this is his territory. He knows the stakes here. He knows how to act. He's the one with all the knowledge at this point. Yet, Rose can't leave him alone here either. When she asks him how they'll escape, Finn mentions he knows where the escape pods are. Rose then answers in a tone that almost borders on contempt with, "of course you do." As if to imply, "of course Finn, the coward, knows where the escape pods are." Instead of the fact that Finn has grown up on FO ships his whole life and would know every section like the back of his hand. Yet, when we get to the end Rose confesses that she "loves" Finn. What? How?

I like Finn, but I don't love Finn, especially after his galactic side tracking in TLJ. TFA at least managed to balance his buffonery with some good serious moments sprinkled throughout the film, but TLJ basically tilts him to full carny saving all his serious moments til the very end (basically everything from Snoke's ship to the end). His arc is just a step above a retread of his arc from TFA. The sidelining of his romance with Rey is baffling. And, he's yet to feel like a competent person at really anything.

JJ can still salvage him, but he's going to have to really work at it.
 

AR Starts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
407
I have a ton of problems with TLJ. TFA had its fair share of issues as well but is miles better than TLJ.

OP, you've touched on one of them. Consistency-most people talk about how Luke is inconsistent with the OT. This is true, however the new characters are also inconsistent with the prior film as well. Finn went from being a deserter turned leader in TFA to a coward running away again in TLJ. At least by the end of TFA he was standing up and fighting for something; in TLJ he is just a coward following Rose. Similarly Poe went from being a leader in TFA to being painted as a fool for not listening to his dumb arrogant commanding officer in TLJ. Similarly Rey, Kylo, Hux, and Leia also are inconsistent between 7 and 8. IT annoys me. I think TLJ is not only a bad Star Wars film but also just a really poor sequel to 7.
 

Ignis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Yeah I hate what they did to Finn. I hate TLJ for what it did to the trio and the story and Luke. It really is the shittest star wars film, YES even the prequels are better and AoTC is on par with TLJ but at least AoTC is meme worthy.

God awful film.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
Yea. Finn was always a goof with a good heart but was more concerned with self preservation than the needs of the galaxy.

Don't see why that characterization would change in TLJ because he picked up a saber to help his friend
Exactly, he only picked up a lightsaber because it would protect Rey. If anything the two films are a critique of the damsel in distress trope as Rey and Finn is the embodiment of the trope of the knight whose typically in these kinds of movies. From the very first moment he sees Rey his first instinct is to be the knight in shining armor. Never ONCE considering that she is perfectly capable on her own.
tumblr_nzi1esjKyB1r5fenlo3_400.gif

tumblr_oxtx3acTIN1v4w5ico1_1280.gif

tumblr_inline_psk3f3cvXq1uoprzw_540.gif

tumblr_o4kba5kpi51qbxlwho3_r1_500.gif



I don't think most people remember or even acknowledge how Rey and Finn's relationship starts, he actively lies to her:
tumblr_ovpvp84QaG1rxtlb8o8_250.gif


and only reveals the truth in order to get her to run away with him.
giphy.gif

tumblr_inline_pantq5G9tk1tod15b_500.gif



And the moment the knight picks up the sword to protect the damsel he gets cut down and made a fool out of, because he wasn't the knight in shining armor that he pretended to be when he met his damsel:
ba9a3b0ab4a5a7ad2c17d3a75534c0be.gif


And that's where his arc ends in TFA. And that's where it begins in TLJ.
e7a207d6ba791e9ea28a95f179a3581f4f78410a_hq.gif

7f715f97aa227dd6210600b77b70d8f935cbcfc5_hq.gif


TFA IS THE FILM THAT RESPECTS THIS DUDE AS A CHARACTER?! Not the film that points out that he ain't shit but that he can be if he just stops thinking about the damsel and looks at the bigger picture?



"Committed."

They're brainwashed babies. What the fuck is commitment? Finn is the ONLY one in history to break TFO brainwashing. So, this isn't like some lack of willpower on the part of literal slaves.
Yes they're brainwashed and indoctrinated but at the end of the day, they're still space nazis who slaughter civilians and destroy planets without a second thought.
stormtroopers.gif
 
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