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Yup. The original concept was that "Cable" was one person time displaced into three eras. Sam Guthrie/Cannonball, his younger self just awakening to his abilities, Stryfe- the man in his prime that had gone off the wrong track, and "Cable" the oldest version who sought to correct the crimes and errors that "Stryfe" was making earlier in his life.
Guthrie's powers would evolve into Stryfe, but eventually over thousands of years those powers would wane and/or be burned out as Cable replaced much of his body with cybernetics. His memory (much like wolverine's) was highly unreliable after so many years and so much time traveling, though- so by the time X-force rolls around Cable isn't 100% certain who Sam Guthrie is, only that he's important to the timeline and taking out Stryfe.
Comic Book Legends Revealed #387
www.cbr.com
Liefeld leaves Marvel shortly after this in 1992 (along with a LOT of other talent) and this plotline and a whole bunch of others get abandoned. Marvel editorial decides to retcon cable into being an adult Nathan Summers, and Stryfe being a healthy (though mentally unstable) clone instead.
Twist my arm, I can't really say which one is better. Both rely on a lot of time traveling plot holes and logical leaps to make it work.
Cant see it happening honestly. The way the X-books are going they don't really need him anyway.
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Soo now there were other first mutants billions of years ago that just vanished from earth huh
I don't care about the first mutants oh, I care about the very explicit Scott and Jean sex scene.
Can we get over Scott and Jean?
No?
They were boring in the 80s.
Can we get over Scott and Jean?
No?
They were boring in the 80s.
Immortal was good, will be interesting to see what they do now that everyone knows about their immortality
"You and Emma we're buddies… weren't you?"
I'm not up on everything, but I just got 2 massive X of Swords collections, its great so far.
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With the world finding out about resurrection, I feel a timer has started on how long Krakoa can last. Mutants can't keep resurrection alone forever, it would make them overlords of humanity. Humanity can't have it or the Marvel setting will no longer reflect Earth in a way that is required of it.
We know from Cable that the Krakoa era does not last, so I'll be interested to see what happens coming out of it.
As for the ancient firster-than-first mutants, I got the impression that they're not new, but the full origin of the first generation mutants who were found by Apocalypse on Okkara, before going to the warp to learn competitive daemon fighting. It explains why the Okkaran / Arakkoan mutants are so often non-human and non-humanoid; the x-gene existed before humanity itself did.
We know from Cable that the Krakoa era does not last, so I'll be interested to see what happens coming out of it.
As for the ancient firster-than-first mutants, I got the impression that they're not new, but the full origin of the first generation mutants who were found by Apocalypse on Okkara, before going to the warp to learn competitive daemon fighting. It explains why the Okkaran / Arakkoan mutants are so often non-human and non-humanoid; the x-gene existed before humanity itself did.
"Hello? Sebastian? This is Kitty Pryde, can you hear me?"
"Yes Kitty Pryde, I know who you fucking are, I can hear you…"
I think with all of the exposure to Arakko's exciting cast in Red and Legion, Duggan's Orchis is struggling to appear interesting or relevant (at least to me). Stasis was an interesting twist, but I feel like its fallout was better in Immortal than it was in X-Men.
(I can admit that I'm more into fantasy than sci-fi, though, so maybe that's why the tone isn't hitting home for me.)
Also, where are Nimrod and Omega Sentinel? Surely they'd be called in when a mysterious cyborg woman shows up claiming to want to take down the mutants.
Also also, Moira as a villain? Fine, I can see that arc, there was clear foreshadowing. Moira as this moustache-twirling card-carrying villain? I don't see it at all. I think Percy and Duggan have ruined her.
Also also also, the fact that people are casually nominated for the new X-Men team against their will and make it in anyway suggests that nobody else actually wants to be on the X-Men. I guess we're not getting a Secret X-Men issue this time around.
I guess you could argue that the Celestials did it based on observing the contemporary population of Threshold though.
(I can admit that I'm more into fantasy than sci-fi, though, so maybe that's why the tone isn't hitting home for me.)
Also, where are Nimrod and Omega Sentinel? Surely they'd be called in when a mysterious cyborg woman shows up claiming to want to take down the mutants.
Also also, Moira as a villain? Fine, I can see that arc, there was clear foreshadowing. Moira as this moustache-twirling card-carrying villain? I don't see it at all. I think Percy and Duggan have ruined her.
Also also also, the fact that people are casually nominated for the new X-Men team against their will and make it in anyway suggests that nobody else actually wants to be on the X-Men. I guess we're not getting a Secret X-Men issue this time around.
It's also a substantial retcon of Marvel history, since it was established back in 1980 that the Celestials originally seeded the X-gene when experimenting on Earth's primitive population...but the current Avengers and Eternals runs seem to be happily retconning that story left and right anyway.
I guess you could argue that the Celestials did it based on observing the contemporary population of Threshold though.
I wouldn't take that into account, specially because this book ended a long time ago.
Also, the whole Hickman leaving X-Men thing was mostly (possibly - who really knows) because the X-staff didn't want to leave Krakoa (or phase 1) behind, so I don't really think this is what is going on. Maybe they are just trying to make the stakes higher, like killing one of the five or spreading the "I don't want to be resurrected" plot from X-Men Red.
I'll be fine when the age of Krakoa ends.
It was a lot of fun and let us start over from day zero on a lot of broken storylines over the last twenty years that seemed almost impossible to squash. Resurrected characters like Banshee and Thunderbird in a fun way, cleaned up the Psylocke thing, etc.
But let's get back to the mansion with Prof X and his people and let Scott and or Emma have the Mass school and give Mags Asteroid M and let's just start fresh for the new fresh MCU X-men.
It was a lot of fun and let us start over from day zero on a lot of broken storylines over the last twenty years that seemed almost impossible to squash. Resurrected characters like Banshee and Thunderbird in a fun way, cleaned up the Psylocke thing, etc.
But let's get back to the mansion with Prof X and his people and let Scott and or Emma have the Mass school and give Mags Asteroid M and let's just start fresh for the new fresh MCU X-men.
Legion of X showed that Nimrod is in deep space, busy killing the Magus. Omega Sentinel is presumably with him, given the relationship between those two.
I think Emma explains it well. All the constant resurrection after apocalypse simply broke Moira's mind. She was ALWAYS going to betray Krakoa, which is why she banned precogs. The rapid descent into villain madness after post X-deaths can probably be chalked up easily to her murder at the hands of wolverine and subsequent phalanx infection. The infection that Wolverine had ALSO turned him into a murderous anti mutant psychopath once his healing factor got neutralized.
There's no indication Angelica opposed the nomination. She was just surprised by it. Everyone shares a hive mind during the nomination process so her thoughts would have been open to everyone about it.
Its not. The origin you're referring to was only applicable to 616 Earth in Universe 7. THAT earth was obliterated during Time Runs Out and the universe that replaced it (Universe 8) has a different history.
Jason Aaron's Avengers established that the Celestial interference in Universe 8 Earth was significantly different - that was an unintended accident that flooded primordial earth with mutagenic substances, not careful design.
We see the exact same thing happen again in the current Spiderman 2099 series.
I know my memory is bad, but I thought it wasn't so much the Celestials intentionally ceding Earth with stuff as it was that one Celestial bleeding its guts out all over the place?
Which could still work within the whole Celestial Experiment angle as, once the rest of the Celestials discovered what had happened, they decided to observe and see what happens, like an eons-long reality show. And when they didn't like what they were seeing they'd interfere by meddling with shit like pushing Apocalypse towards their ends or fucking with the Pantheons.
EDIT: and speaking of the Celestials and the cosmic bit, has any of that ever bled into the whole Moira resetting shit thing? You'd think the Cosmic powers like Eternity would take a rather keen interest in it
Which could still work within the whole Celestial Experiment angle as, once the rest of the Celestials discovered what had happened, they decided to observe and see what happens, like an eons-long reality show. And when they didn't like what they were seeing they'd interfere by meddling with shit like pushing Apocalypse towards their ends or fucking with the Pantheons.
EDIT: and speaking of the Celestials and the cosmic bit, has any of that ever bled into the whole Moira resetting shit thing? You'd think the Cosmic powers like Eternity would take a rather keen interest in it
Two different origins. Universe 7 Earth 616 had eternals, deviants, and mutants all being the result of intentional Celestial experiments.
After secret wars when the marvel universe was recreated as Universe 8, the new Earth 616 had a Celestial dying accidentally and flooding the planet with mutagens. This created deviants and mutants. Eternals weren't experiments like they were before- they are intentionally designed to monitor and shepherd the deviant evolution process so that it eventually results in stable superhumans that would be useful to Celestials. "The Earth" functions as a sentient machine that they are "programmed" to protect at all costs, and will resurrect them when killed.
HOX/POX addressed this when talking about the higher level machine intelligences:
Anything on the level of a Titan/Dominion exists outside of time and would be unaffected by something as minor as moira resetting a timeline. The abstract powers would be well above that but largely do not care to intervene unless something is threatening to break reality on a fundamental level.
Titans/Dominions however WOULD take affront at anything that low level having any sort of influence on their area and if they became aware of it would intervene from outside of time and eliminate her. This is why the timeline had to be reset before the earth AI joined the greater machine intelligence in space in Life 6. If the greater intelligences gained that information, no more Moira.
But isn't she absorbed in the latest timeline or did it not matter because she no longer had time resetting powers?Two different origins. Universe 7 Earth 616 had eternals, deviants, and mutants all being the result of intentional Celestial experiments.
After secret wars when the marvel universe was recreated as Universe 8, the new Earth 616 had a Celestial dying accidentally and flooding the planet with mutagens. This created deviants and mutants. Eternals weren't experiments like they were before- they are intentionally designed to monitor and shepherd the deviant evolution process so that it eventually results in stable superhumans that would be useful to Celestials. "The Earth" functions as a sentient machine that they are "programmed" to protect at all costs, and will resurrect them when killed.
HOX/POX addressed this when talking about the higher level machine intelligences:
Anything on the level of a Titan/Dominion exists outside of time and would be unaffected by something as minor as moira resetting a timeline. The abstract powers would be well above that but largely do not care to intervene unless something is threatening to break reality on a fundamental level.
Titans/Dominions however WOULD take affront at anything that low level having any sort of influence on their area and if they became aware of it would intervene from outside of time and eliminate her. This is why the timeline had to be reset before the earth AI joined the greater machine intelligence in space in Life 6. If the greater intelligences gained that information, no more Moira.
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I have to say I'm not really sold on Moira's betrayal either.
That being said I loved the Gala issue. Lots and lots of great moment to moment scenes.
Also the idea of the resurrection tech falling into that wrong hands is an terrifying idea. Especially in real life. Imagine if that Republican Party could simply resurrect their dead leaders and declare an emperor.
That being said I loved the Gala issue. Lots and lots of great moment to moment scenes.
Also the idea of the resurrection tech falling into that wrong hands is an terrifying idea. Especially in real life. Imagine if that Republican Party could simply resurrect their dead leaders and declare an emperor.
Well- it was definitely well choreographed in advance. The only reason Moira abandoned the "cure all mutants" plan in the first place was because Destiny promised to strangle her in the crib if she ever caught her trying it again.
This is literally what has just happened to the Eternals.
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Yeah honestly Moira turning on the mutants was telegraphed from the second and no precog rule came into effect.
I believe I'm on record saying before Inferno, that the only reason for there to be no precog would be if she was planning on betraying the mutants again.
I mean if it was just a grudge then it would be no Destiny. It's sad other precogs such as Blindfold were denied the resurrection as well.
I will say that I am very much loving this new era as it pushes past the Hellfire Gala and I can't wait to see what AXE will bring.
I believe I'm on record saying before Inferno, that the only reason for there to be no precog would be if she was planning on betraying the mutants again.
I mean if it was just a grudge then it would be no Destiny. It's sad other precogs such as Blindfold were denied the resurrection as well.
I will say that I am very much loving this new era as it pushes past the Hellfire Gala and I can't wait to see what AXE will bring.
Yep. The signs for it were all over the place when you know what's coming.
AXE seems to be much better thought out than IVX or AVX were. Clearer antagonists and more credible threats across the board. At first i wasn't sure how the Eternals would pose much of a threat buuuuut now im starting to see it.
The Eternals (or at least some of them) are inherently compelled to do some absolutely horrific shit without hesitation and literally cannot stop themselves. In a lot of ways they're more machines than people and can't break their "programming."
Wasn't Sentinel Moira absorbed in the timeline that Phalanx Wolverine came from? If so wouldn't the Titans then have her memory and know to kill her? My question was why havent they attacked? Shouldn't they have snuffed her out of time prior to her getting her powers? In theory Wolverine could of went to a time before she lost her powers and forced a hard reboot by killing her himself. .
No, last thing I want is comics continuity fucking shit up to cater to the MCU. Keep them separate, we're smart to distinguish between the two
Ah, i see what you mean.
Two possible answers i can think of, take your pick.
1.) that moira was a transmode virus infected machine, not a mutant. She explicitly says so- Wolverine is the last mutant. So being absorbed by the phalanx wouldn't matter much. Even if they do gain the knowledge that she was capable of doing that at some point, no need to go back in time to kill her. She's out of "lives" and can't do it again.
2.) after being killed wolverine takes that thing from behind his eye and sends his body back in time. As long as he did it before moira joined the greater machine intelligence this would change history, reset the timeline and the Titan/Dominion would be unaware.
From the perspective of a Titan/Dominion who exists outside of time, the timeline changes all the time and is very fluid, both past and future. None of that matters much to a higher level entity though, because it isn't affected by those changes.
What WOULD irritate it enough to intervene though is a lifeform that interrupted the (somewhat rare) process of a lower level AI advancing itself enough to attract the attention of the Phalanx to join the collective. That would be perceived as an affront and the Titan/Dominion would simply act to eliminate whatever that was.
This would only happen if those things became aware of Moira doing it though which is a hard sell, because she's so insignificant. Again, the timeline changes all the time.
Wolverine likely doesn't really know how her powers work (as Destiny does) so killing her at any point before she gets depowered wouldn't do anything. She'd just resurrect and use what she learned to avoid getting caught next time.
I mean, sure... but what if someone cloned moira a bunch of times and has been abusing her power to navigate the various available time paths?
That should alarm something somewhere if it's done enough... At some point someone should see something is up and start investigating...
I thought it was a nice touch in Eve of Judgement that none of this programming was triggered by discussion of the mutants' current situation. Druig keeps referring to it as excess deviation as his justification, but their programming does not agree, while it notably intervened to prevent them from wiping Krakoa out.
It'll be interesting to see how Druig drums up support from his fellow Eternals, considering their programming inherently informs them when something is or isn't excess deviation. I guess he'll have to play entirely off their Deviant prejudice.
I mean, this is just a long way of saying "retcon", so yeah. There's an in-universe event justifying it, but a retcon is a retcon.
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There is a certain amount of leeway in how they interpret their missives. Uranos' interpretation of protecting earth is WAY different than say, Ikaris's interpretation, but the reason that discrepancy exists comes down to programming.
Druig for example is a complete piece of shit and knows it, but he was created to BE that way and can't really experience any growth to change that.
They are also (to an extent) bound to obey the Prime Eternal, whoever that is. I recall some weird bit of lore recently saying that Uranos and his brothers have some sort of mechanism to force and exploit that in certain circumstances.
Again, it isn't because those are two different planets. The history for Universe 7 earth 616 didn't change and wasn't retconned. That still happened and one can still travel there and interact with it, though it is difficult.
Universe 8 616 Earth in comparison is a new planet Franklin thought up that has a different origin. There's nothing to retcon, because that's how it was created to be from the start by Franklin, Reed, and Owen Reece 6 or 7 years ago, both in real time and Marvel Time.
The current marvel heroes are (with a handful of exceptions) different characters playing in a different sandbox with different rules and history than the ones prior to 2015. Universe 7 Thor, Cap, Iron Man, Xavier, and similar had their stories end when Time Ran Out.
This is why its different than say, what DC does. Secret Wars didn't invalidate or retcon past events, it just set a fixed endpoint for the prior sandbox and established a starting point for a new one inspired by but not identical to the previous.
The two coexist, though no NEW events will occur in Universe 7, because it ended in 2015.
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The higher powers wouldn't care, because that sort of meddling with time doesn't affect them directly and the timeline is naturally fluid and changes constantly for any number of reasons.
Ultimates 2 (2016) has a few interesting panels that go into this. The abstracts know this sort of thing happens, but don't care unless the damage caused by it is extreme.
Titans and Dominions are well below where the abstract powers are, (Phoenix and Galactus as minor abstract powers are definitely stronger, per Hickman) so they aren't affected but also aren't omniscient and always aware of every single thing that occurs in the way that say, Death or Eternity are.
Edit: to your point there IS someone that should be investigating whenever the timeline is altered in the way that say, Sinister is doing it. That's the TVA. Marvel is REALLY inconsistent with using them though. They showed up for Reckoning War over in FF, but that storyline was so poor its impossible to tell whether Slott was parodying the concept or was just really bad at writing the event.
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We're being set up for Schism 2
But with Jean on one side and Logan and Scott on the other
I could see that happening… actually I want to see that happen.
Has the actually been confirmed anywhere in the actual text of the books or just that one map that showed the adjoining rooms?
Both men are screwing Jean at the very least they have an understanding
I think you're giving them way more credit than deserved.
I definitely didn't see this coming. When they were going to eliminate mutant resurrection, I thought it was going to be something a little more elegant than fighting with the eternals. Moira is the architect to Krakoa and know its systems..
I hate this machine vs mutant narrative being so prevalent a theme. I know I shitted on Sinister being a wild card but t least it's different. I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief with robots wiping out two mutant nations.
The book I love to hate. The Reckoning war (Awful story.) is ending but I haven't heard any word of him leaving FF yet. I think it's because morons like me keep buying his damn book. Regarding Franklin, there were a lot of good stories to tell with him being a mutant. They were on the right track. Until all this pretender /not a real mutant stuff. Bad form Marvel. Bad form.
Everybody fucking each other is actually one of the best parts of the Krakoa era. No love triangles, no tension, no fan shipping. Everyone fucks on Krakoa. My kind of town.
It's an underrated aspect of the Krakoa era. Not just the love triangle stuff, but how it sort of hit stop on all sorts of worn down and now-boring plotlines that were just lingering around.