• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Should there be a new OT for From the Ashes Era

  • Yes, and I will participate.

    Votes: 11 47.8%
  • Yes, but I probably won't participate.

    Votes: 6 26.1%
  • No. Keep the conversation here.

    Votes: 3 13.0%
  • No. I have no interest in From the Ashes.

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Let's just talk about it on the Comics Era OT.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total voters
    23
  • This poll will close: .

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,451
Have to admit, these xbooks are getting kind monotonous. I think I need a pull list purge and refresh.

Shit is expensive out there and I'm getting tired of reading the same stories over and over. Krakoa was supposed to be different.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,162
Tampa, Fl
Great set of comics. It was good to see Destiny and Mystique get more depth as a couple. Also the return of Rightclops.

It's also interesting how Immortal X-Men #1 has Destiny telling Sinister that they should be on the same side, but issue #3 has them waging this silent war that neither one can openly acknowledge is happening in the background.
They explain that well in this issue.

Destiny has only had one burst of future knowledge, the Destiny Diaries.

After that it was all wakes and eddies.

Sinster's alignment is similiar to Destiny and Mystique's. So with only the wakes and eddies, he seems like a perfect ally.

With this new knowledge burst, it's obvious he's not.
 

lone_stranger

Member
Aug 24, 2018
289
They explain that well in this issue.

Destiny has only had one burst of future knowledge, the Destiny Diaries.

After that it was all wakes and eddies.

Sinster's alignment is similiar to Destiny and Mystique's. So with only the wakes and eddies, he seems like a perfect ally.

With this new knowledge burst, it's obvious he's not.
Good points. Destiny couldn't see anything post-Krakoa when she initially tried to "befriend" Sinister that first time. Now that she can, it makes sense to see him as an enemy instead of an ally. Before he might have been part of the critical path to bring about Krakoa, but now he's just a problem that threatens several possible futures.

I wish I'd read more stuff from Ewing and Gillen, because I really underestimated them. Red and Immortal are damn good so far.
 

OrigamiPirate

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
581
San Francisco
They explain that well in this issue.

Destiny has only had one burst of future knowledge, the Destiny Diaries.

After that it was all wakes and eddies.

Sinster's alignment is similiar to Destiny and Mystique's. So with only the wakes and eddies, he seems like a perfect ally.

With this new knowledge burst, it's obvious he's not.

I'd like to add, with her insistence previously that they be on the same side, Destiny is likely to go unnoticed in her pursuit of Sinister. She has created her own perfect cover, as long as she doesn't let it slip.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,900
X-Men Red and X-Men were fantastic. That's all I've read so far. Magneto is always awesome.
 
Feb 16, 2022
14,446
Have to admit, these xbooks are getting kind monotonous. I think I need a pull list purge and refresh.

Shit is expensive out there and I'm getting tired of reading the same stories over and over. Krakoa was supposed to be different.
Been feeling this too, which is partly why I was disappointed Hickman left. The Destiny of X relaunch/reshuffle felt tiring.

Immortal #3 is great, but it being a monthly title is starting to feel like it slows down the overall pace of all Krakoa for me.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
uh they did not just kill gambit

You can't kill mutants, they're all immortal now.

If they die in Otherworld though they come back...not the same, but as a composite of alternate timeline versions of themselves. Rockslide was severely changed and basically is a nonresponsive mute now, but Gorgon seems to have recovered after a short bout of not being able to engage in combat.

There's a Gambit series coming up, so it's likely they'll explore whoever he ends up being further.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,565
You can't kill mutants, they're all immortal now.

If they die in Otherworld though they come back...not the same, but as a composite of alternate timeline versions of themselves. Rockslide was severely changed and basically is a nonresponsive mute now, but Gorgon seems to have recovered after a short bout of not being able to engage in combat.

There's a Gambit series coming up, so it's likely they'll explore whoever he ends up being further.

I swear if they break up rogue and gambit cuz of this...
 

Porl

Member
Nov 6, 2017
8,321
You can't kill mutants, they're all immortal now.

If they die in Otherworld though they come back...not the same, but as a composite of alternate timeline versions of themselves. Rockslide was severely changed and basically is a nonresponsive mute now, but Gorgon seems to have recovered after a short bout of not being able to engage in combat.

There's a Gambit series coming up, so it's likely they'll explore whoever he ends up being further.
The gambit series is set in the past, innit?
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
The gambit series is set in the past, innit?

Dunno. But marvel rarely does series for "dead" characters. He'll still see a use. It may be the Gambit we end up with may be a lot more like "past" gambit without the maturity that came with running with the Xmen/marrying Rogue, etc.
 

Porl

Member
Nov 6, 2017
8,321
Dunno. But marvel rarely does series for "dead" characters. He'll still see a use. It may be the Gambit we end up with may be a lot more like "past" gambit without the maturity that came with running with the Xmen/marrying Rogue, etc.
Yeah i said that because Storm was a kid in the series. I don't even think Gambit died, it's probably a fakeout.

But also, they probably did a bunch of out of continuity series with logan when he "died", right? I wasn't there back then but it sounds like they'd do that. Same with the f4
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,344
Gambit has a Hellfire Gala design, so we know he'll be back in some form or another by then. I think the most likely scenario looking at solicits is the Knights of X secure the Seige Perilous in the next couple of issues and use that to bring him back.
 

OrigamiPirate

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
581
San Francisco
I had presumed that we'd be seeing the return of Gambit's Death persona, given all the text about Death Horsemen from Apocalypse's grimoire, I'm not sure he's dead dead (from this week's issue at least, who knows what #4 will bring lol).
 

nitekrawler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
312
Goddamn it's a good week. X-Men Red 4 is the book I've been waiting for from this era of X-Men. I cried a bit when I read the words 'There is precedent here — and so there is law'. The questions it asks are a part of the philosophical promise of this new era of X-Men. I'm happy to see the seeds Hickman planted blossoming.

As much as I loath Sabertooth I can't help but understand his points and where he is coming from. Though I can't help but wonder if being a part of the island and the others in the pit might have had an influence on him morally. Thus even though the prison sentence was unfair might it have had the effect of rehabilitation. I suppose we'll see now that he is risen again.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
I see we are now writing aways around being ressurected now.

Well that's not really a new thing- one could argue that started with X of Swords. Nobody wants to die in Otherworld and end up like Gorgon or Rockslide (though those two appear to have gotten better).

Having Magneto simply "opt out" due to being tired of all this shit and Ororo do the same on principle isn't really out of place for either.

The issue mentions that either one COULD still come back via Wanda's mutant heaven business so resurrection could still be a thing, but neither one would.

On the other hand we have Xandra being resurrected even though she died the next galaxy over without a backup, potentially creating a never-ending Krakoan rule over the shi'ar empire so there's that.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,162
Tampa, Fl
I loved Red this week but I actually found X-Force to be a surprisingly good book to and I've been kind of down on it lately.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,900
X-Men Red is so good.
but the question stands. No one should rule forever. Xandra can be trusted for sure but the resurrection tech in the wrong hands could be a nightmare. Imagine a despot with immortality inflicting cruelty for all time. I know Ororo feels it's a mutants birthright but should one really rule an empire forever simply because they are a mutant? The compromise should have been that Xandra is resurrected and then steps away as Empress with a peaceful transfer of power.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
X-Men Red is so good.
but the question stands. No one should rule forever. Xandra can be trusted for sure but the resurrection tech in the wrong hands could be a nightmare. Imagine a despot with immortality inflicting cruelty for all time. I know Ororo feels it's a mutants birthright but should one really rule an empire forever simply because they are a mutant? The compromise should have been that Xandra is resurrected and then steps away as Empress with a peaceful transfer of power.
The compromise should be she stops ruling the first time she dies of something that isn't assassination
 

Bengraven

Member
Oct 26, 2017
26,742
Florida
Dunno. But marvel rarely does series for "dead" characters. He'll still see a use. It may be the Gambit we end up with may be a lot more like "past" gambit without the maturity that came with running with the Xmen/marrying Rogue, etc.

So basically they're rebooting gambit to what made him interesting in a lot of their original readers' minds.

I mean yeah, I kind of miss the, no pun intended, rogue-like character that he used to be but if they take it away I would also miss him and Rogue together and his cats.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/vni9qs/comment/ie75xix/

I'm happy I'm not the only nerd to notice this. It's really obvious because it is right where the most recent definition of Omega is that Forge is an example of someone who is not.

Its possible (and in fact likely) they simply upgraded him after reconsideration. The original reason he wasn't in the first place was because Reed Richards was smarter and honestly that was never really a great excuse in the first place.

Reed himself admits that there are people who specialize in certain areas that are better than him IN those areas. And I've been fond of saying that if Forge doesn't count then Storm shouldn't either- since Thor's weather control is superior by her own admission.

Same thing happened to synch. Hes speculated to be omega level now since his (first) resurrection, and he's pulled off stuff that even Hope hasn't.

It isn't "top of a power level" because we still have Jean and Quentin and possibly Xandra as omega level TPs.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,162
Tampa, Fl
Honestly, Omega Class is something that will always be moving as powers evolve and redefine.

Remember that Warpath used to only have super strength and invulnerability (and Native American tracking powers)

Remember Storm used to follow to laws of conservation of energy.

Remember Mystique could only mimic humanoid forms.

Mutant powers adapt and change. The levels do too.

(also the whole class system is something from the Age of Apocalypse story that I wish everyone would just forget about)
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
(also the whole class system is something from the Age of Apocalypse story that I wish everyone would just forget about)

... Not exactly. The concept might predate that.

If you remember "The Twelve" from waaaay back in the first run of X-factor, those were supposedly a tier of ultra powerful mutants a class above everyone else.

That particular plot line shifted and changed repeatedly over the years before Marvel finally put a nail in it as a hoax cooked up by Apocalypse, but for a long time it contained a lot of those who would later be classed as Omega Mutants or close to it.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,162
Tampa, Fl
... Not exactly. The concept might predate that.

If you remember "The Twelve" from waaaay back in the first run of X-factor, those were supposedly a tier of ultra powerful mutants a class above everyone else.

That particular plot line shifted and changed repeatedly over the years before Marvel finally put a nail in it as a hoax cooked up by Apocalypse, but for a long time it contained a lot of those who would later be classed as Omega Mutants or close to it.
Yeah but that's how it used to be.

The Twelve were the mutants who could end Apocalypse. That was also from the era where Apocalypse wasn't actually a mutant but instead a force of nature from the Celestials

The terms "Alpha Mutant""Omega Mutant"and such didn't exist until Age of Apocalypse.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
Yeah but that's how it used to be.

The Twelve were the mutants who could end Apocalypse. That was also from the era where Apocalypse wasn't actually a mutant but instead a force of nature from the Celestials

The terms "Alpha Mutant""Omega Mutant"and such didn't exist until Age of Apocalypse.

That's one of the retcons. Originally no one knew what they were, other than powerful mutants destined to lead mutantkind in some kind of revolution.

The concept didn't start with Apocalypse either- it was Master Mold that first identified them as it's prime targets. (edit: Apocalypse originally WAS one of the Twelve to give you an idea of how warped that concept got)

The apocalypse connection came later as different writers hijacked it. Not hard to draw a line between The Twelve and what would later be Omega Mutants, especially since a lot of those suspected of being The Twelve were later classed as such.

Double Edit: Iceman in particular has long been indicated as not living up to his full potential. A lot of the reason for that was he was one of the people identified early on as being one of The Twelve and that idea eventually evolved into iceman potentially being an Omega Level mutant even though his actual abilities rarely if ever justified the classification.

Triple edit: and speaking of Omegas, this latest issue of Xforce doesn't make a lot of sense either. Quire IS classed as an Omega mutant, but like Jean it's his TP that gets him there. The only Omega Level Telekinetic (if we ignore X-man) is Exodus.

That entire issue though is Quire showing off and stunting with his TK while doing the Omega Level Monologue. I don't think his TP ever really comes into play.
 
Last edited:

nitekrawler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
312
Its possible (and in fact likely) they simply upgraded him after reconsideration. The original reason he wasn't in the first place was because Reed Richards was smarter and honestly that was never really a great excuse in the first place.

Reed himself admits that there are people who specialize in certain areas that are better than him IN those areas. And I've been fond of saying that if Forge doesn't count then Storm shouldn't either- since Thor's weather control is superior by her own admission.

Same thing happened to synch. Hes speculated to be omega level now since his (first) resurrection, and he's pulled off stuff that even Hope hasn't.

It isn't "top of a power level" because we still have Jean and Quentin and possibly Xandra as omega level TPs.

That makes sense. I just hadn't seen any speculation with Forge as I had seen with say Synch.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988

nitekrawler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
312
There actually has been believe it or not and that speculation comes FROM synch.


Synch at the time considered Forge the most powerful mutant on the island. Given that Everett has had the opportunity to copy pretty much everybody up to that point he'd be an authority on the subject.

I forgot all about that. I just didn't think of Synch's speculation as official categorization cause it wasn't in one of the data pages that i call the X-files.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
I forgot all about that. I just didn't think of Synch's speculation as official categorization cause it wasn't in one of the data pages that i call the X-files.

I imagine we'll see an update to "official" categorizations sooner or later to account for significant additions and changes since House of X #1 in 2019.

Forge and Synch aside, Franklin Richards was yanked from the list by Slott, we have all of Arakko to consider outside of the Great Ring, Xandra and Nate Grey were both left unaddressed, all of the precogs who were dead and banned (Destiny, Blindfold) now aren't, James Jaspers appears to be some kind of amalgamation of EVERY James Jaspers, Madelyne Pryor has returned from death, and Scarlet Witch pulled off that Mutant Heaven business that allows for resurrection of those not categorized in Cerebro.

edit: and as an addendum to the previous conversation, it looks like the first instance of Omega Level/Omega Class mutants showing up even predates the Twelve: It occurred in Uncanny Xmen #208 and referred to Rachel:


IMG_96266FFEF9BA_1.jpeg


marvel.fandom.com

Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 208

Featured Characters: X-Men Storm (Ororo Munroe) Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde) Wolverine (Logan) Colossus (Peter Rasputin) Rogue Phoenix (Rachel Summers) Supporting Characters: The Morlocks Callisto Caliban Sunder Unnamed Morlocks Antagonists: The Hellfire Club Black Queen...

So the timeline here appears to be Claremont using it for Phoenix Rachel in '86, The concept evolving into "The Twelve" in X-factor in '87 then THAT concept constantly being rewritten and evolving into an unknown number (as opposed to just twelve) Omega Class mutants with Age of Apocalypse in 1995.

Speaking of The Twelve, the original list we know of (from Master Mold) isn't that far off from the list of Omegas we have now:

twelve4.jpg


Uncanny X-men #246-247 (1989) had Master Mold indicating Xavier, Apocalypse, Jean, Psylocke, Storm, Cannonball, Franklin Richards, and Dani Moonstar, with the remaining 3 unknown.

twelve6.jpg


A couple years later in X-factor #68 (1991), Apocalypse seems to indicate Storm, Iceman, Cable, and Xavier as part of that group, while excluding himself. (Note though that Apocalypse may not definitively know who all of them are- only Master Mold and a Time Traveling Rachel Grey seemed to be aware of the full list.)

So if we consider "The Twelve" to be precursors to Omega Mutants, those were the potential candidates as of 1991. So how does this line up with the group of 14 from House of X?

Xavier: Xavier's lack of inclusion on the 2019 Omega list has always been sort of confusing. He's had the title of "earth's strongest telepath" pretty much forever, and even if we exclude all three instances of the Onslaught business, has easily mentally bested Jean and Quire before. Xavier himself also is the father of at least one known Omega Mutant (Legion) a second one that is suspected to be at that level (Xandra) and the time displaced Charles Xavier II was somewhere on the level of Teenage Jean without any formal training. I imagine we'll get an explanation for this one sooner rather than later, possibly with a class "above" Omega level (this has happened a handful of times before).

Apocalypse: similar to the above, his exclusion from the 2019 list doesn't make a lot of sense. For a very long time beginning with his origin in X-factor, Apocalypse was presented as if not THE strongest mutant, damned near close to it- thus his "survival of the fittest" routine. Apocalypse was considered SO powerful that it was Sinister's entire mission for over a century to eventually breed a mutant strong enough to defeat him, which gave us Nate Summers/Cable, who was cloned into Stryfe. the AOA Sinister came to the same conclusion, eventually creating Nate Grey/X-man- all three of which were eventually classed as Omega Level (Cable/Stryfe) or way past that (Nate Grey) prior to HOX. The Cyclops and Phoenix series which took place in Cable's future also outright stated that Apocalypse would eventually evolve into something far past his current incarnation, so powerful no mutant body could contain what he was for long without burning out. We also have Moira seeking him out as a final gambit after alliances with Xavier and Magneto failed in the prior timeline. And finally- we have Apocalypse defeating Genesis (the only one capable of defeating annihilation previously) in single Combat in X of Swords- Genesis being an Omega herself. Everything we've ever seen indicates Apocalypse is at least on this level, though like Xavier we may need to wait for more clarification. His inclusion (at least initially) would therefore be kind of obvious.

Jean: is currently on the 2019 list established in HOX for obvious reasons.

Storm: is currently on the 2019 list established in HOX, though the reasoning is suspect given that Thor's weather control is superior.

Franklin Richards: is on the 2019 list, but subsequently retconned out by Slott in Fantastic Four. The retcon makes very little sense, given Sinister is doing the exact same thing and is considered a mutant by council.

Iceman: is currently on the 2019 list established in HOX- though his actual powers rarely seem to justify it. His inclusion among "The Twelve" is the first indication he may be this powerful, though this potential rarely materializes.

Psylocke: one of the strongest telepaths that isn't Omega level and probably third behind Xavier/Jean at the time- her inclusion would make sense in 1989/1990, though she's been surpassed in telepathy since then. Amusingly though, not by Quentin Quire who is included on the 2019 list as the only other Omega TP outside of Jean.

Cyclops: His mutation has never been particularly impressive, but his inclusion makes sense given his longevity with the X-men AND Sinister's constant obsession with his Bloodline's DNA. The Summers bloodline much like Xaviers seems to routinely keep producing extremely powerful mutants. He gets a pass.

Dani Moonstar: No explanation for this one, might just be in recognition of where New Mutants was in 1989.

Cannonball: This one is fun. Cannonball in New Mutants was always depicted as powerful, but lacking control over it. How powerful? At the time X-factor #68 was written and New Mutants was evolving into X-force, Cannonball was intended by Rob Liefeld to be not only be one of the immortal "externals", but to be the past version of Cable, who had been time traveling for thousands of years at the point he was introduced in 1990. Nathan Summers was intended to be an entirely different character until Liefeld left with the rest of Marvel's talent due to the Image Comics business. So Cannonball and Cable are both listed, but as of 1991? They were the same person and Liefeld was laying the groundwork for him to be one of Earth's strongest mutants.

Cable: See the above. Current Cable (as the fusion of Cyclops and Jean by Sinister) is an Omega level mutant- or would be if the majority of his power wasn't dedicated to keeping his T/O infection from running out of control. The other two clones of him (Stryfe/Xman) have repeatedly been clocked at or past that level without it. This came up as recently as Xmen Red #2, and it's heavily implied that Orchis is searching for a way to reliably control the T/O infection as cable has using his TK. Interestingly, the only other mutant known to have done so (and the one responsible for Cable's condition) is Apocalypse.
 
Last edited: