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Nov 17, 2017
12,864
That does not change the fact that those story beats did happen and they made a ridiculously complicated story out if a simple good vs evil premise.

120 hours of bashing X won't change that, we have cliff notes for a reason, to get to the point.

When you have to pause, jot down names and figure out why there are like a shit tons of ansems and two different organization 13's and people getting bequeathed and memories being stored in 3 different people.

No...it's jibberish at that point.

Game will be pretty and fun to play but fuck that story. Point me in the direction of evil and I will slay it.
Eh, I think people exaggerate how confusing KH's story is all the time. Like they either haven't played most of the games or they are jumping on the hate bandwagon. Now mind you, this is different from people thinking the story is stupid, that's fair if you think that.

You grossly misrepresent what actually playing the games and experiencing the story as intended is like. There's absolutely no reason you would have to be pausing constantly throughout the games and writing things down to keep track of plot points. I mean, the whole infamous Ansem Seeker of Darkness/Ansem the Wise thing is explained basically over the course of an entire game, including Ansem Reports, character dialogue and a drawn out cutscene where Mickey clearly explains it to Sora. You're given plenty of time to digest that information.

The story is developed over all these games and all these big plot points are spaced out and explained one at a time at a very manageable pace with the exception of Dream Drop Distance (imo). It's very easy to follow and understand the plot of KH but of course it's easy to drop all the plot twists that have been developed over a decade in a few sentences and have it feel overwhelming and confusing and just impossible to understand.

Square shouldn't have put KH games on everything besides toasters instead of doing another console game then, they especially shouldn't have named the title when they finally come back to console KH3.

How is it not reasonable for people to expect 3 to naturally follow 2?
I feel like with the most minimal research into the series you would know that these other games exist and you wouldn't just jump from 2 to 3. If you somehow go into 3 without knowing that, it's really on you. It's not as if Square Enix hasn't made it clear over the years that these games exist.

As annoying as it was to have all the games scattered on the Gameboy, DS, PSP and 3DS, those games are all now available on the PS4 in convenient collections. The first two collections that contain the majority of the games in the series were even on PS3 so I feel like your issue here isn't even relevant anymore and it hasn't been for years.
 

Treasure Silvergun

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 4, 2017
2,206
The story is crazy, but not so complicated once you put everything in chronological order.

KH's problem is that the exposition in-game is purposefully done to confuse the heck out of the player by making everything seem much more outlandish and incomprehensible than it really is.
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
Seems kind of pointless to complain on the story. I'm no KH fan, but I can understand it was more of "You had to be there" thing than anything.

Back then you got KH 1, KH 2. You twittled your thumbs after because who knows when the next one came out. You probably gritted your teeth as a fan and bought the Gameboy and PSP KH games once you heard the stories were canon just to tide you over until whenever KH 3 was releasing.

If you invested that much time into the series and kept up along with it the entire way you should be rewarded IMO. Everything doesn't have to be exactly coherent for the masses. It's obviously doing well enough off of the back's of people that know the series.

Exactly. Like dang, again the series is 17 years old and has like 5 or 6 collections released in the past 5 or 6 years. And I also agree on the "you had to be there sentiment". On that note, I find it impressive that's what Nomura seemed to be banking on because the plot was continuing no matter what. And KH3 looks damn promising.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,285
Could you explain that? How more involved was Disney, how did that influence the development of the game in comparison to the predecessors? And how do we even know that this happened?
There hasn't been as much relevancy from the Disney properties since KH1. And considering that some of the events are apparently canon for a portion of the Disney properties, very much doubt they said, "yea do whatever with our characters." It's a very far cry from what's been im the series as of late.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
Any recommendation's as a starting point?


It still sucks that they didn't turn into the original horror fest. That it seemingly intended.

A Wild Sheep Chase is a great start because it's one of his shorter novels that still tells a satisfying story and has all the big mainstays of what he's been known for. Wind up Bird is likely his most generally beloved, but it's much longer and a bit more meandering so I suggest going there after if you like Sheep Chase.



But yeah now that I think about it Murakami is another great example of Japanese media that goes out of its way to introduce supernatural or strange plot points that might be considered extraneous but I find add to a level of over-the-top delight about the story being told, like in KH
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
I don't think the storytelling in KH is intrinsically Japanese per se. I just think it's what happens when you write the same fanfic for almost two decades.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Well that's your problem then isn't it?

I loved the crap out of CoM as a kid and BBS is great.
Oh it's my problem that I don't like hand held games, how about the blame is all on Square Enix for fragmenting their fanbase for the series.
I booted them up, there was no way I was going to suffer through those games.

CoM is not a fun game, it's like a weird action/card game. That's not what I buy a Kingdom Hearts game for.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
2006 but yeah. There's been plenty of ways for people to get a good chunk of the collection in relation to the series. It's pure reductionist nonsense for people to continue to keep saying. That they NEED to buy other systems to play half the games. That are important to the series.
2006 is when KH2 came out on PS2. KH 1.5 was the first collection and it didn't come to the PS3 until March 2013!
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Also why do I feel like I'm the only one acknowledging the KH collections? Like, why are people harping on the games being on different consoles when you could just have a PS4 and been Gucci for the past 2-3 years? The collections were out on the PS3 as well and that console game out when again? 2008? I forget.
2008? Try 2013. And that was just 1.5. We had to wait more for 2.5 and then more for 1.5 and 2.5 to come to ps4 and then more for 2.8 which was ps4 only. And if you're on Xbox One and never owned a PlayStation and want to try KH3 you're shit out of luck with the games before it.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
There hasn't been as much relevancy from the Disney properties since KH1. And considering that some of the events are apparently canon for a portion of the Disney properties, very much doubt they said, "yea do whatever with our characters." It's a very far cry from what's been im the series as of late.
This also probably changed somewhat when Pixar got involved, who seems to take brand integrity more seriously. The Toy Story world is canon to the Toy Story universe as a whole, for example.
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
Regardless, 6 years of collections and folks are still echoing the complaints about games being across many consoles. And yeah, the real complaint honestly is that XBone players really need a collection at some point.
 

Sea lion

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
903
I haven't read any KH3 spoilers but I guarantee the series ends with the power of friendship nonsense.
Its just a needlessly convoluted story with a generic shonen message of "friendship wins the day", its not worth all the effort and asspulls to get to that conclusion.

Nothing really feels like it matters as it can just be explained by more nonsense like time travel which was in no way forshadowed.
Its just Nomura trying to be deep and throwing edgy ideas at a wall and hoping it sticks in a game where Donald and Goofy are main characters. It just doesnt work so theres no point trying to make it to. It could have been a fun, charming romp instead of a beautiful odd mess.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
A Wild Sheep Chase is a great start because it's one of his shorter novels that still tells a satisfying story and has all the big mainstays of what he's been known for. Wind up Bird is likely his most generally beloved, but it's much longer and a bit more meandering so I suggest going there after if you like Sheep Chase.



But yeah now that I think about it Murakami is another great example of Japanese media that goes out of its way to introduce supernatural or strange plot points that might be considered extraneous but I find add to a level of over-the-top delight about the story being told, like in KH

Wow does that book, sound like a fever dream. Which to me KH really is all about.
 

Aeron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Eh, I think people exaggerate how confusing KH's story is all the time. Like they either haven't played most of the games or they are jumping on the hate bandwagon. Now mind you, this is different from people thinking the story is stupid, that's fair if you think that.

You grossly misrepresent what actually playing the games and experiencing the story as intended is like. There's absolutely no reason you would have to be pausing constantly throughout the games and writing things down to keep track of plot points. I mean, the whole infamous Ansem Seeker of Darkness/Ansem the Wise thing is explained basically over the course of an entire game, including Ansem Reports, character dialogue and a drawn out cutscene where Mickey clearly explains it to Sora. You're given plenty of time to digest that information.

The story is developed over all these games and all these big plot points are spaced out and explained one at a time at a very manageable pace with the exception of Dream Drop Distance (imo). It's very easy to follow and understand the plot of KH but of course it's easy to drop all the plot twists that have been developed over a decade in a few sentences and have it feel overwhelming and confusing and just impossible to understand.


I feel like with the most minimal research into the series you would know that these other games exist and you wouldn't just jump from 2 to 3. If you somehow go into 3 without knowing that, it's really on you. It's not as if Square Enix hasn't made it clear over the years that these games exist.

As annoying as it was to have all the games scattered on the Gameboy, DS, PSP and 3DS, those games are all now available on the PS4 in convenient collections. The first two collections that contain the majority of the games in the series were even on PS3 so I feel like your issue here isn't even relevant anymore and it hasn't been for years.
It is relevant, not to you or maybe me but it is highly relevant in the grander scheme.
You cannot separate Disney from the series and Disney brings with it a mainstream audience.

KH doesn't get to do things like a niche product whilst heavily marketing to people outside the niche and being tied to a mainstream IP.
People are going to keep complaining and it isn't their fault that they dont have the passion for it that fans do to go through all those spinoffs-but-not-actually spinoffs.
This is what happens when you hitch your series to a monolith like Disney.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Was there ever any official word on why they made so many spin offs and didn't just go to 3 straight after 2 ?

If I recall correctly, the Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 team (Square Enix Tokyo) were working on Final Fantasy Versus XIII. The original plan was for Birth By Sleep (being developed by Square Enix Osaka) to be only non-numbered game after 2. Then Square Tokyo would develop KH3 once Versus XIII was done.

But the development hell of Versus XIII coupled with Square Enix struggling during the transition to HD changed things.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,572
Texas
I haven't read any KH3 spoilers but I guarantee the series ends with the power of friendship nonsense.
Its just a needlessly convoluted story with a generic shonen message of "friendship wins the day", its not worth all the effort and asspulls to get to that conclusion.

Nothing really feels like it matters as it can just be explained by more nonsense like time travel which was in no way forshadowed.
Its just Nomura trying to be deep and throwing edgy ideas at a wall and hoping it sticks in a game where Donald and Goofy are main characters. It just doesnt work so theres no point trying to make it to. It could have been a fun, charming romp instead of a beautiful odd mess.
Don't forget about the (totally guessing here, so if it's a spoiler then it's only because the writing is complete derivative shonen tripe) bigger villain behind the current villain, who has been pulling the strings from the shadows the whole time. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the current big bad fought alongside the heroes against said bigger bad after they show him he's actually a good person.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,261
It was literally not possible for Birth by Sleep to be on a console. I would've preferred if it was, but did you see how incompetent Square was during the PS3 generation? The series would be dead if they tried to do that.

This isn't the consumer's fault though and doesn't do anything to defend the actual story we have.

KH's story is just bad. It's okay if people like it; I enjoy a lot of books, games, and movies that have bad plots. KH is honestly bad even by anime standards. Again, people can enjoy that and shouldn't be shamed for liking it. But also critics aren't going to soften their words to make sure the fans' feelings aren't hurt because someone said the game had a bad story.

There's literally no reason for anybody to be emotional over this on either side. Fans need to get over it if people don't like KH's bad story, and critics need to understand that they won't die if they don't play KH3. I'm in the latter camp, and I won't be buying KH3 ever as I don't have time to sit through 6 games or whatever between KH2 and KH3. That's fine. KH fans can have fun with it and that doesn't hurt me or whatever.
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
I don't consider KH's story isn't bad but obtuse and relies heavily on having an interest in the series and being able to follow the convulsions and knowing what's actually being retconned. I think the story is good regardless of immediate accessibility.

If it was bad, then I probably wouldn't have cared so much back in the day.

Don't forget about the (totally guessing here, so if it's a spoiler then it's only because the writing is complete derivative shonen tripe) bigger villain behind the current villain, who has been pulling the strings from the shadows the whole time. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the current big bad fought alongside the heroes against said bigger bad after they show him he's actually a good person.

I feel like the opening movie kinda implies this so I'm interested to see what happens.
 
Oct 27, 2017
228
c07.gif
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,322
This isn't the consumer's fault though and doesn't do anything to defend the actual story we have.

KH's story is just bad. It's okay if people like it; I enjoy a lot of books, games, and movies that have bad plots. KH is honestly bad even by anime standards. Again, people can enjoy that and shouldn't be shamed for liking it. But also critics aren't going to soften their words to make sure the fans' feelings aren't hurt because someone said the game had a bad story.

There's literally no reason for anybody to be emotional over this on either side. Fans need to get over it if people don't like KH's bad story, and critics need to understand that they won't die if they don't play KH3. I'm in the latter camp, and I won't be buying KH3 ever as I don't have time to sit through 6 games or whatever between KH2 and KH3. That's fine. KH fans can have fun with it and that doesn't hurt me or whatever.

Here's the thing: Most KH fans acknowledge the story is stupid. Nobody in this thread is arguing Nomura's a genius.

But if you don't care about the games and don't want to play them, I'm not sure why you're invested in this discussion.
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
Don't forget about the (totally guessing here, so if it's a spoiler then it's only because the writing is complete derivative shonen tripe) bigger villain behind the current villain, who has been pulling the strings from the shadows the whole time. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the current big bad fought alongside the heroes against said bigger bad after they show him he's actually a good person.

That'd be pretty funny considering the spinoffs are all about establishing who the main villain of the series actually is. He's generic bald wizard man.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Here's the thing: Most KH fans acknowledge the story is stupid. Nobody in this thread is arguing Nomura's a genius.

But if you don't care about the games and don't want to play them, I'm not sure why you're invested in this discussion.
Well Nomura is kind of a genius, being able to even have a series like this, and have it continue.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,572
Texas
Lol, I was gonna say the same thing. About 80% of his videos are his reach for said fruit of the industry at that time. I also watch his videos and enjoy a majority of them, but let's not act like this is new for him.
Are you guys just gonna ignore that the Jimquisition is entirely ad free and funded through his patreon, or...

Clicks don't get him revenue from these, and thus he doesn't need to do these for clicks. Could it be, and bear with me here because it's pretty fucking out there, that he is presenting his genuine opinion on a long running series that he likes?
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,470
This is a series that began as a crossover between multiple, otherwise unrelated Disney movies with some Final Fantasy characters mixed in. A lack of full, congruous name origins for the OCs (also from various worlds) when they're talking to the White Rabbit, Tidus, Peter Pan, Tifa, Tron, and Sephiroth, shouldn't be treated as some major world-building flaw.

Fair, but I'd say that because those names are taken from properties whose worlds are structurally sound and their naming conventions generally consistent, they are essentially grandfathered in.

I do think the world-building flaw does lay with the Nomura side of the character roster and the lack of any logical underpinning to the naming convention. Xigbar, Xemnas, Xehanort, and how Ansem comes from Xehanort, and you have all the Organization 13 names where the only sense you can make is that most of them share the letter "x" in their names.
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
Well Nomura is kind of a genius, being able to even have a series like this, and have it continue.

We're on the same page. He did it, retcons be damned. Dude got kicked off the FF15 team, said fuck it, and the conclusion to his 17 year old series comes out to the states tomorrow. Like fuck, how many people can say they ever got the chance to do that?
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
It is relevant, not to you or maybe me but it is highly relevant in the grander scheme.
You cannot separate Disney from the series and Disney brings with it a mainstream audience.

KH doesn't get to do things like a niche product whilst heavily marketing to people outside the niche and being tied to a mainstream IP.
People are going to keep complaining and it isn't their fault that they dont have the passion for it that fans do to go through all those spinoffs-but-not-actually spinoffs.
This is what happens when you hitch your series to a monolith like Disney.
You say KH doesn't get to do this as if it's not a successful series that has had multiple games, a big fanbase and has been going on for over a decade. It's been tied to Disney since the start - you're speaking as if this suddenly just happened and every just discovered this series existed.

You seem to be arguing that the games' story should be easily and quickly understandable no matter what game you pick up and play simply because it's tied to the mainstream IP of Disney. The way I see it, there has been plenty of Disney games and there will be plenty more that cater to that accessibility you want. Kingdom Hearts doesn't have to do that, it's clearly successful and has developed a fanbase from the story telling direction it decided to take. It is its own unique thing in that sense and I don't see the point in arguing that it should be anything else.

So yeah, I realize that people will continue to complain but I just view it as kind of futile to do that. The fact is, if you're complaining that you didn't get to play any of the handheld titles to get the story because they weren't on console, your problem was solved back on the PS3 and again of the PS4 over the past 5 to 6 years. You had plenty of time to play the games if you wanted to. And if you didn't, just play 3. Watch a recap or don't. They're still fun games. I'm assuming that the people who are complaining about the story but still want to play the game are in it for that at least, otherwise they wouldn't even bother.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
We're on the same page. He did it, retcons be damned. Dude got kicked off the FF15 team, said fuck it, and the conclusion to his 17 year old series comes out to the states tomorrow. Like fuck, how many people can say they ever got the chance to do that?

I mean the fact that he even admits that the story and the characters are kind of hard to connect together. Tells you as much, because the truth is....he could have abandoned it. Because that was years of content that he wasn't routinely involved in, as he worked on FF15...etc. An now he has to bring it all together and end a arc before doing more in the same series? that's dedication.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Fair, but I'd say that because those names are taken from properties whose worlds are structurally sound and their naming conventions generally consistent, they are essentially grandfathered in.

I do think the world-building flaw does lay with the Nomura side of the character roster and the lack of any logical underpinning to the naming convention. Xigbar, Xemnas, Xehanort, and how Ansem comes from Xehanort, and you have all the Organization 13 names where the only sense you can make is that most of them share the letter "x" in their names.
Xigbar and Xemnas are the Nobody names of Braig and Xehanort (masquerading as Ansem), though. And while it is true that the other Org members names were essentially retconned in to fit their Org names, this isn't an inconsistency in and of itself. Even Xion sort of lampshades the practice (Xion = No I = No One).
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Did you watch the video? This is just plain false.

1:17 Despite having only vaguely dipped my toe in the waters of its saturated spinoffs

1:32 Look, dear viewer, I played and adored Kingdom Hearts. I played and adored—albeit, slightly confusedly—Kingdom Hearts II

He's played the numbered games, and at least parts of the spinoffs. It's not unreasonable for a person to assume if they play Kingdom Hearts I & II, that they should be able to go straight into III without getting hopelessly lost. But no, you need to play through ~10 other spinoff games-- or watch YouTube recaps-- in order to keep the story straight.

Calling something gibberish isn't the same as saying something requires a crazy investment. Jim was all over the place in that regard. I don't love Jim but I don't hate him either nor was my post all that aggro so... um... chilax? I do think his titling of the video was motivated primarily by the potential enthusiast riling reaction. Feel free to disagree with me. The KH series is wacky as all get out but so is Anime most of the time and the whole premise is Anime meet Disney. It is melodrama and esoteric to the point of being confusing but has been since the first monologue in KH1.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,322
Xigbar and Xemnas are the Nobody names of Braig and Xehanort (masquerading as Ansem), though. And while it is true that the other Org members names were essentially retconned in to fit their Org names, this isn't an inconsistency in and of itself. Even Xion sort of lampshades the practice (Xion = No I = No One).

Huh. I never noticed that. Of course, I care so little about Xion that this conversation will be erased from my memory like it never even happened in like five minutes, so...
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,261
Here's the thing: Most KH fans acknowledge the story is stupid. Nobody in this thread is arguing Nomura's a genius.

No, some of them are twisting themselves into knots to argue KH has a good story, and others are acting like it's some moral crime that they can't play KH3 without playing more games. The solution for both of these groups is obvious and not emotional. The former should just accept the story is bad and not get angry that Jim made a video saying the story is bad, and the latter should just play it or don't like we all should do with literally any product up for sale.

But if you don't care about the games and don't want to play them, I'm not sure why you're invested in this discussion

I think gaming is unique among media where gamers take their reactions to ridiculous heights to the point that many developers have long held that interacting with gamers is a bad idea. That's not great; I like when creatives share things and interact with fans, and currently I would advise every developer to not do that because of the constant whining, aggression, and shit-flinging.

I personally don't like Jim because he contributes to (and profits from) this rage, from people who are angry at what he says because they agree with him and people who are angry at what he says because they disagree with him. So I'd like it if people would stop being emotional over, of all things, the story in a Kingdom Hearts game.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
No, some of them are twisting themselves into knots to argue KH has a good story, and others are acting like it's some moral crime that they can't play KH3 without playing more games. The solution for both of these groups is obvious and not emotional. The former should just accept the story is bad and not get angry that Jim made a video saying the story is bad, and the latter should just play it or don't like we all should do with literally any product up for sale.

The story isn't all bad, because if it was. No one would care what happens at the end...there would be almost zero investment in the characters or the arc itself.
 

Aeron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
I say it doesn't get to in that people won't treat it like a niche fanbase driven product if it's connected to Disney and marketed at them.

Y'all basically saying it's peoples fault for not being super fans like you are.
That flies when you're a niche game and the mainstream has zero interest anyway, but KH isn't by virtue of being tied to Disney.
So you're just going to have to deal with it, the "tired" criticisms are never going away.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,722
Canada
Also why do I feel like I'm the only one acknowledging the KH collections? Like, why are people harping on the games being on different consoles when you could just have a PS4 and been Gucci for the past 2-3 years? The collections were out on the PS3 as well and that console game out when again? 2008? I forget.
Pretending it's still 2012 is easier than actually playing games.
 

Afrocious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655
Xion's existence as a character is low key one of the most tragic parts of the whole timeline.

I think her character was lost in translation when it was decided to only have cutscenes from Days in the collections. As mundane as it was playing, when Riku shows up and Xion begins acting independent and eventually working with him, that shit was tragic.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,261
The story isn't bad, because if it was no one would care what happens at the end...

This is not convincing. Many series across media have bad stories and fans. That's fine. I follow plenty of bad plots. Once Upon a Time, for example, was a really fun show to me. Its plot is awful. That's fine. I can admit that.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,322
I say it doesn't get to in that people won't treat it like a niche fanbase driven product if it's connected to Disney and marketed at them.

Y'all basically saying it's peoples fault for not being super fans like you are.
That flies when you're a niche game and the mainstream has zero interest anyway, but KH isn't by virtue of being tied to Disney.
So you're just going to have to deal with it, the "tired" criticisms are never going away.

There are already Disney games for people who want perfect accessibility. Not every Disney game needs to be designed for everyone.