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wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
Launching enemies into the air and keeping them suspended by either hitting them from the ground with proper timing or straight-up jumping after them for an air combo has been a thing in games for a while -- my question is, how long exactly? I'm doing research on this subject for a video I'm working on for my channel; Street Fighter 2 famously KIND OF allowed juggling through glitches, but the game credited with properly introducing the concept is the original Mortal Kombat in '92.





I feel like there must've been at least a few side-scrolling Beat 'em Ups where juggles are possible before then though? Doesn't seem to be case looking over footage for Streets of Rage or River City Ransom again. As far as 3D games go, I haven't played the original Tekken or Virtua Fighter in a while, but it seems like juggling wasn't a thing here until VF2 in '94. You can get in the odd hit while your opponent is falling to the ground in each respective first entry of those series, but it can hardly be referred to as juggling.





Lastly, we obviously have the original Devil May Cry for full-3D games. Famously, a glitch discovered by director Hideki Kamyia while playtesting Onimusha (which ended up being removed from the final game) formed the basis for what is essentially the birth of the stylish action genre.





As far as air combos go, Guilty Gear (1998) seems to be the first 2D fighter to popularize the concept? But we wouldn't see anything similar in a full 3D game until 2002's Otogi for the Xbox. DMC1 didn't have any kind of proper air combos, DMC2 didn't come out until 2003 (if it even counts) and Ninja Gaiden only released a year after that in 2004. There's actually a full-3D game that pre-dates Otogi by about nine months that DOES feature air combos, but I'm conveniently leaving it out here to see if you guys are gonna mention it. ;) I'm mostly wondering if there's a 3D game with air combos BEFORE the one I'm thinking of.





Anyway, this is what I've come up with, would love to know what other people can add!



EDIT: OK, I just remembered that The Bouncer for PS2 exists. Is this it???


6357-the-bouncer-playstation-2-front-cover.jpg
 

donkey

Sumo Digital Dev
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,861
What we consider modern air combos in 2D fighters go way past GG.

X-Men: Children of the Atom (which eventually led to the Marvel VS series) was in 94/95 doing stuff like that and I'm sure it goes further back.

 
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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046


My mental timeline is all off, but I think One Must Fall 2097 was kind of interestingly forward thinking. It was released in 1994, so we're looking just before Street Fighter Alpha. Normally, the combo system was more like Street Fighter 2, but it had a hidden option called "Rehit Mode" which allowed for greater juggling. It even had online and match recording (although obviously these were primitive).


(The game has a build-a-character sort of mode, so the posted video has jacked up stats and custom pilots.)
 

donkey

Sumo Digital Dev
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,861


My mental timeline is all off, but I think One Must Fall 2097 was kind of interestingly forward thinking. It was released in 1994, so we're looking just before Street Fighter Alpha. Normally, the combo system was more like Street Fighter 2, but it had a hidden option called "Rehit Mode" which allowed for greater juggling. It even had online and match recording (although obviously these were primitive).

Lord, I played the freeware version to death and messed with a hex editor to beef up my character stats. Good times.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,790
My kind of thread. Honestly, i've always prefered air combos in character action games rather than fighting games.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Alien vs Predator also had them in 1994.


It seems that 1994 was the year when everyone simultaneously realized that air combos were a thing that could happen.
 
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wondermagenta

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
It peaked with Killer Instinct
Children of the Atom had massive air combos and juggling in '94.
What we consider modern air combos in 2D fighters go way further back than GG.

X-Men: Children of the Atom (which eventually led to the Marvel VS series) was in 94/95 doing stuff like that and I'm sure it goes further back.



Hot damn, how could I forget!



My mental timeline is all off, but I think One Must Fall 2097 was kind of interestingly forward thinking. It was released in 1994, so we're looking just before Street Fighter Alpha. Normally, the combo system was more like Street Fighter 2, but it had a hidden option called "Rehit Mode" which allowed for greater juggling. It even had online and match recording (although obviously these were primitive).


(The game has a build-a-character sort of mode, so the posted video has jacked up stats and custom pilots.)


Woof, that's a deep cut. Thanks for bringing this one to my attention!
 

oneida

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,912
I haven't played the original Tekken or Virtua Fighter in a while, but it seems like juggling wasn't a thing here until VF2 in '94. You can get in the odd hit while your opponent is falling to the ground in each respective first entry of those series, but it can hardly be referred to as juggling.
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Dec 14, 2017
1,351
is an air combo only a combo if you and the enemy are in the air? As Okabe said, depends on how you define 'proper'. DMC1 does have a lot of moves and techniques designed to attack from the air enemies on the ground, but while you're not juggling enemies in the air at the same time, being in the air in DMC1 is more about mitigating risk of being on the floor surrounded by grounded enemies. I think for third-person 3d games though, it's still the first to make big steps in air combos, majority of games in the same genre during that era show the influence.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
A bug in Onimusha inspired the DMC team to put air combos in DMC1. You could juggle enemies in that by accident, and they thought it was cool.
 
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wondermagenta

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
is an air combo only a combo if you and the enemy are in the air? As Okabe said, depends on how you define 'proper'. DMC1 does have a lot of moves and techniques designed to attack from the air enemies on the ground, but while you're not juggling enemies in the air at the same time, being in the air in DMC1 is more about mitigating risk of being on the floor surrounded by grounded enemies. I think for third-person 3d games though, it's still the first to make big steps in air combos, majority of games in the same genre during that era show the influence.

Definitely agree with that assertion; I wouldn't even consider the lack of "true" air combos in DMC1 a shortcoming of that game, it still uses the Z-axis in a lot of interesting ways. I'm just curious from a history perspective because I genuinely can't think of anything pre-Otogi in that regard (outside of that ONE game I briefly alluded to in the OP).
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,351
Same, can't recall much before early 2000s either regarding this. Also, still thinking about that game you hinted at, but drawing blanks, give us another hint.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,351
It spawned a series that had another entry very recently. ;)
Ah, KH1 in 2002. Yes, I suppose that does have no-question-about-it air combos. I won't even argue that the lack of fine-tune control invalidates it, but it does somewhat lack a 'launcher' and a 'spike' move. I think only ragnarok can be used in the air as well, which is just ars arcanum in the air.
 
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wondermagenta

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
Ah, KH1 in 2002. Yes, I suppose that does have no-question-about-it air combos. I won't even argue that the lack of fine-tune control invalidates it, but it does somewhat lack a 'launcher' and a 'spike' move. I think only ragnarok can be used in the air as well, which is just ars arcanum in the air.

Yup, that's the one! The video I'm planning is about KH2 and one of that game's biggest advancements over its predecessor is the addition of launchers (Upper Slash and Finishing Leap). Even that game lacks any kind of spike as far as I'm aware though (and funnily enough, that's something KH3 adds). It's just odd for me to think of KH1 as potentially the first full-3D game with true air combos; I really couldn't find anything else preceding it.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,351
Looking forward to your video, KH mechanic analysis are interesting watches. I only played KH2 once, but I actually liked KH1 more. I think 1 balanced being an action-rpg much better than 2, even though 2 'plays' better.
 
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wondermagenta

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
Looking forward to your video, KH mechanic analysis are interesting watches. I only played KH2 once, but I actually liked KH1 more. I think 1 balanced being an action-rpg much better than 2, even though 2 'plays' better.

Thanks! I'd actually agree with that sentinemt and I like both games a bunch, but I think 2 appeals to me more purely from a combat perspective and how much they get out of the mechanics with the different bosses and scenarios.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
I don't know if debuted in Super SF2 first or Super Turbo, but Dictator could juggle an airbourne opponent with his Jumping Medium Punch. IIRC, he can chain 2 Jumping MPs if you time them right.
Also, ChunLi's super will juggle opponents so you could follow with her up-kicks. I THINK Dictator's super juggles too.

EDIT: Ah then MK1 would be the 'forefather' of juggles. I don't think juggling was in either Art of Fighting 1 or Fatal Fury 1 or 2 at least :X
 
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