The heroes lack of self-reflection regarding clones in SW is troublesome...

[cognizant]

I just watched an episode of the much lauded Clone Wars animated show, called 'Cadets', and though I enjoyed it, it continued to highlight a massive cognitive dissonance for me. Namely, I still can't get over the entire concept of clones in Star Wars.

I have yet to see any kind of self-reflection regarding the usage of clones by the 'good' natured protagonists of Star Wars. There's no "maybe this isn't right?" type question hovering in the air between characters. There's no question uttered at all.

If you've seen Westworld, it's as if anytime someone brings up anything resembling a critique or question regarding clones, a Jedi's eyes glaze over and the conversation is brushed over. They may as well bluntly state "doesn't look like anything to me."

The second episode that official viewing guides recommend to watch after starting Clone Wars is 'Hidden Enemy', an episode revolving around a traitor in the ranks of the clones. Like 'Cadets' it raises interesting questions about the nature of clones, but exactly like I mentioned above, when Anakin and Obi-Wan are confronted by the traitor with the messy ethical dilemma of clones, the pair literally stay silent, their eyes narrow, and then the conversation is immediately brushed over.

It's both hilarious and constantly frustrating to me as a viewer. I just can't get over the idea of the Jedi and Republic growing humans in vats for combat. Logistically it makes total sense, you've got all this manpower ready to go, but narratively there's no scene of characters debating the issue before coming to a grim conclusion that, yes we need these clones even if we don't like it.

If the narrative painted the Republic satirically as a fascist state like Starship Troopers, I'd totally accept it, but Star Wars doesn't do that. The Jedi are meant to be the 'good' guys, the light against the dark, etc.

Anyway, what's your opinion on all this clone malarky? I've only just started Clone Wars, so maybe what I'm looking for is addressed later, even if it isn't in the movies themselves.

 

[Eidan]

So I've never watched Clone Wars. Are you saying in the entirety of its run, the ethics of even making clones, let alone clones for a war machine, are never explored?

 

[cognizant]

So I've never watched Clone Wars. Are you saying in the entirety of its run, the ethics of even making clones, let alone clones for a war machine, are never explored?

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I've only watched 3 episodes, hence my asking this exact question in my post above. Given the scenes I've witnessed already, it's looking doubtful. But hopefully people who have watched the entire show can chime in. I'm looking for scenes of the protagonists, Jedi and Republic leaders simply asking whether they're doing the right thing or not.

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

So I've never watched Clone Wars. Are you saying in the entirety of its run, the ethics of even making clones, let alone clones for a war machine, are never explored?

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Not necessarily. They state that the episodes bring up ideas in regards to making clones just that the "heroes" of the story have nothing to say on the matter.

 

[jph139]

I like the cognitive dissonance there. In the actual films, it's pretty clear there's very little thought put into the ethics of it - it's like, just sci-fi bullshit to make the plot work and because the "clone wars" was the name set for that era. The show plays with that, by making it really obvious to the audience that growing mass-produced human beings is ethically murky at best, but also making the POV characters like the Jedi willfully ignorant to it.

A lot of what makes the Clone Wars great, as a show, is that it takes the incredibly simplistic world that the prequel trilogy presents and bakes some nuance into it. The Jedi are not a purely good and heroic organization. Even people that the films present as unwaveringly noble, like Obi-Wan and Yoda, get some dirt on them. It's why Ahsoka is such a great character, and one fans really connected with - she's ultimately the only one that questions the methods of the Republic and the Jedi. (Well, I mean, so does Anakin but...)

 

[Slash]

The idea of the Republic using the Clones as pawns for Order 66 is explored in season 6 of the series, and without spoiling it, it can get pretty dramatic. Specifically for war, not so much, but there's clearly a lot of themes in some episodes about them being pawns without any say in the overall war.

 

[cognizant]

I like the cognitive dissonance there. In the actual films, it's pretty clear there's very little thought put into the ethics of it - it's like, just sci-fi bullshit to make the plot work and because the "clone wars" was the name set for that era. The show plays with that, by making it really obvious to the audience that growing mass-produced human beings is ethically murky at best, but also making the POV characters like the Jedi willfully ignorant to it.

A lot of what makes the Clone Wars great, as a show, is that it takes the incredibly simplistic world that the prequel trilogy presents and bakes some nuance into it. The Jedi are not a purely good and heroic organization. Even people that the films present as unwaveringly noble, like Obi-Won and Yoda, get some dirt on them. It's why Ahsoka is such a great character, and one fans really connected with - she's ultimately the only one that questions the methods of the Republic and the Jedi. (Well, I mean, so does Anakin but...)

Click to shrink...

I like what you're saying, but in the films at least I'm not getting that there's any subversive intent on behalf of the filmmakers. If there were, it would be nice thematically to have the good guys be so oblivious to their ethically murky efforts. (and it's such an obvious thing to do, have the holier-than-thou good guys have karma hit them in the ass for being arrogant and blind to their own cruelties)

I'm looking forward to seeing how the animated show explores this though.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

There's a pretty great scene in one episode where a clone admits he has trouble reconciling the fact that he hates the war and can't wait for it to end but, at the same time, he would never have been born if the war had never started.

 

[TheXbox]

They are slaves and child soldiers. The CW show humanizes them but it does not force its heroes to confront what OP is describing. At best, the Jedi treat them like valued comrades rather than disposable automatons, but literally no one seems to recognize that Clones are completely disenfranchised and manufactured for slaughter.

 

[Slash]

If you don't care about spoilers, they discuss the exact issue here

"Many of us clones wish the war never happened, but without it, we wouldn't exist"

 

[C J P]

One of the awkward byproducts of this, and possibly an intentional one, is that it makes the Confederacy of Independent Systems (Palpatine notwithstanding) seem less bad. I mean, they're bastards, but at least they're only sending a bunch of dumbass droids to fight and die. The clones, on the other hand, are basically the Star Wars equivalent of the Unsullied.

 

[Cross-Section]

The first aired episode of the show goes out of its way to humanize the clones:

 

[Joni]

One of the awkward byproducts of this, and possibly an intentional one, is that it makes the Confederacy of Independent Systems (Palpatine notwithstanding) seem less bad. I mean, they're bastards, but at least they're only sending a bunch of dumbass droids to fight and die. The clones, on the other hand, are basically the Star Wars equivalent of the Unsullied.

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Those dumbass droids are all implied to be sentient beings though. Droids in the Star Wars universe are on one hand seen as completely intelligent beings with personality, and on the other hand, treated as toasters.

 

[egg]

Some Jedi don't look at clones as JUST clones. They seem them as individuals, lifes that should be treated just like any other, friends, and brothers. Other Jedi see them as disposable and meant to serve their purpose regardless. There's an arc that touches on this, and it's damn good. It's something that's touched on every so often.

 

[Slash]

Some Jedi don't look at clones as JUST clones. They seem them as individuals, lifes that should be treated just like any other, friends, and brothers. Other Jedi see them as disposable and meant to serve their purpose regardless. There's an arc that touches on this, and it's damn good. It's something that's touched on every so often.

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Yeah, keep watching cognizant. The show gets a lot more mature in its issues and themes as it goes on, and some arcs touch on this especially well.

 

[Herr Starr]

I've always seen the treatment of the clone soldiers as a byproduct of the decadence of the late Jedi Order. They were manipulated into getting those clones and wouldn't have commissioned them if it was up to them. But when war breaks out and these clones are basically just handed to the Republic on a silver platter, the Jedi decide to just pretend as if everything is okay and go about their business, because what's the alternative?

If there is little to no debate in-setting about this issue, I feel like it's because the Jedi would rather not talk about it because of all the implications behind it. The last thing they need is galaxywide demand that they decommission the army they desperately need to defend themselves against the Separatists.

 

[HStallion]

Those dumbass droids are all implied to be sentient beings though. Droids in the Star Wars universe are on one hand seen as completely intelligent beings with personality, and on the other hand, treated as toasters.

Click to shrink...

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The characters that don't ignore this are basically like vegans IRL

For everyone else, it's just normal

 

[cognizant]

Thanks for the input everyone, I'll continue watching the show (need something to watch after Mandalorian!)

I have a bonus question: in the era of the original trilogy, and also Mandalorian, are there still clones wandering around out of uniform in the galaxy? If so, I feel like that's a really juicy premise to explore for future movies/shows.

 

[Herr Starr]

I have a bonus question: in the era of the original trilogy, and also Mandalorian, are there still clones wandering around out of uniform in the galaxy? If so, I feel like that's a really juicy premise to explore for future movies/shows.

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Yes, and it's already being explored in the shows. Keep watching.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for the input everyone, I'll continue watching the show (need something to watch after Mandalorian!)

I have a bonus question: in the era of the original trilogy, and also Mandalorian, are there still clones wandering around out of uniform in the galaxy? If so, I feel like that's a really juicy premise to explore for future movies/shows.

Click to shrink...

Yes, there are. This is explored in the animated shows and some novels.

 

[CitizenVectron]

I like what you're saying, but in the films at least I'm not getting that there's any subversive intent on behalf of the filmmakers. If there were, it would be nice thematically to have the good guys be so oblivious to their ethically murky efforts. (and it's such an obvious thing to do, have the holier-than-thou good guys have karma hit them in the ass for being arrogant and blind to their own cruelties)

I'm looking forward to seeing how the animated show explores this though.

Click to shrink...

George Lucas has openly stated that the prequels were intended to closely follow old-time serials that were like soap opera dramas for kids. He tried to do this with the OT as well, but other people fortunately stopped him (for the most part). So he didn't want nuance in the PT, he wanted good vs evil, with no grey zone.

I'm not defending the execution of that vision, just stating his apparent intent.

 

[KarmaCow]

Is this any different to how droids are treated as disposal tools even though they are clearly sapient? I haven't watched the tv shows but in the movies it's only touched on as a joke in Solo.

 

[Ragnar]

Same thing with droids:

 

[HStallion]

Is this any different to how droids are treated as disposal tools even though they are clearly sapient? I haven't watched the tv shows but in the movies it's only touched on as a joke in Solo.

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While certain aspects of the SW universe get thoroughly explored down to the most minute detail, a lot of other aspects are glaringly overlooked or undercooked. Mostly if its cool shit to do with the force and cool space fantasy stuff, actually political and social depth outside of trade disagreements and Wookies not liking losing? Not so much outside of a few things here or there.

 

[Weltall Zero]

This cognitive dissonance has felt super weird to me as far back as the original Attack of the Clones. It manages to stand out in a sea of awful things to criticise about the prequel trilogy.

I love how it contrasts with Transformers comics of all things shining a light on how outright monstruous it is to create sentient life for the explicit purpose of forcefully conscipting them as cannon fodder:

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/M.T.O.

Before they were sent into battle, M.T.O.s had to go through a ten-step educational program that ensured that they had sufficient knowledge. As the war progressed, this was eventually cut down to eight steps, and then to just three: everything to do with Cybertron's culture was stripped out and the test merely checked if they could fight. A sarcastic Skids later put this down to callousness, the M.T.O.s being seen as cannon fodder by High Command and not worth teaching to read.

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Then again, MTMTE is one long deconstruction of what four millions of war does to a species as a whole and to its long-lived individual's psyches, so that's par for the course.

 

[Deleted member 7082]

- The Jedi should have freed these people, and maybe offer them a job as soldiers if they still want it. Its also odd that the Republic couldn't muster its own army of citizen soldiers on any scale to defend itself.
- IDK why an order of "peacekeeper" monks are such master tacticians of war that you could just put them in command of armies at the drop of a hat

The Jedi order and the republic deserved to be wiped away tbh.

 

[Duane]

It's always bugged me. Especially when you also consider the fact that they're all about TEN YEARS OLD or younger when the war starts.

Their bodies have been scientifically aged at a double rate, and their minds have been force fed war skills. Neither with any regard to what that does to them, or what they'll do other than the war. These are child soldiers.

Fuck the Jedi for being complicit in this. Monk philosophers who lost their way as an order so badly that they were willing to be the generals of child soldier armies, waging a war so huge it engulfed thousands of planets of civilians.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

To touch on this in full, though with spoilers:

Spoiler

The show makes that dissonance, and the effective lack of resolution, into an in-universe uncomfortable issue, then tragedy when Order 66 and the transition to Empire occurs. One clone soldier ran away from it because he realised it was bullshit, even found a family, and the other clones struggle to even conceptualise the notion, so conditioned they are. It's being put off because of the war - the need to have an army now, even from a questionable source - and the Jedi might be the one group who would truly advocate for the clones, because of their experiences with them, but... y'know... they're removed from the equation altogether. Thus as we eventually see in Rebels, the clones are tossed aside when they're no longer needed to supplement the Stormtroopers, and there is no-one to speak for them. It's just one more way Sidious screwed over everyone but himself.

 

[Herr Starr]

- The Jedi should have freed these people, and maybe offer them a job as soldiers if they still want it. Its also odd that the Republic couldn't muster its own army of citizen soldiers on any scale to defend itself.

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The Old Republic, at the end, was a political mess. The Republic itself didn't have the jurisdiction to muster armies, as far as I know. They'd have to ask the individual planets to do so on their behalf, and few of them would be willing to do so at the drop of a hat, especially without great compensation. Alternatively, they could have tried to bring the matter to a vote in the Senate, giving the Republic the power to force its member systems to muster troops on their behalf, but you've seen how the Senate works (or doesn't) in the movies already. It's too dysfunctional for a vote like that to go through, or if it did, to go through within a reasonable time frame.

The clone army was, from the Republic's point of view, a stroke of good fortune. It was already there, it was already paid for (I think?), and it had no political loyalties outside of the Republic itself. It let them sidestep the whole political side of things and still be able to field a considerable army.

Of course, that was the entire point. Palpatine fabricated the entire war and the clone army to set up a scenario where the Republic would be forced to use their new asset to survive. That same army would then become instrumental in Palpatine's plot to eradicate the Jedi.

 

[Deleted member 24052]

Droids are free thinking, for all intents and purposes living, beings and yet they are forced into labor and destroyed without second thought. This is not a galaxy that values life, much less "unnatural" life. As mentioned in this thread even the Jedi of the Republic were losing sight completely of what was important to protect, all for fear of losing control and power.

I enjoyed the interactions of Rey and D-0 (I think was it's name) in Rise of Skywalker because it showed the effects of an abusive owner on the poor little droid, and Rey's kindness towards it helped it open up a little bit. It was a nice touch.

Edit: And as for the clone army, well the cat was kind of out of the bag at that point as it was being built in secret. Once it was built what were they to do, destroy them all? The fact that the Jedi so quickly utilized the clone army was just another sign of their troubling nature and obviously lead to their downfall.

 

[cognizant]

I really want The Mandalorian to address this too. Favreau has written some of my favourite SW scenes ever in that show. Everyone has talked about the ending of the last episode, and no spoilers....but the opening of that episode was fantastic, and further explored the psychological impact of the relentless wars of the OT on the surviving populace.

 

[Duane]

George Lucas has openly stated that the prequels were intended to closely follow old-time serials that were like soap opera dramas for kids. He tried to do this with the OT as well, but other people fortunately stopped him (for the most part). So he didn't want nuance in the PT, he wanted good vs evil, with no grey zone.

I'm not defending the execution of that vision, just stating his apparent intent.

Click to shrink...

He said that, and it's KINDA true, but then it's also a story that just underneath the surface is ultimately about the futility of war and that the whole war is phony and staged. That both sides are being run by the same guy and his inner circle - the guy in power who wants even more power.

Like everything else about the PT, the execution is clumsy, though. Honestly, if there's a war story with clear cut good guys vs bad guys, it's the OT. The Empire is demonstrably, objectively evil. In the PT, it's actually less clear cut, I think.

 

[Alpheus]

The first aired episode of the show goes out of its way to humanize the clones:

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Yea I did enjoy the fact that Yoda always saw them as individuals, it's consistent with his character. The later seasons do explore what it means to be a clone and how individual Jedi view them.

 

[Forkball]

Lucas remembered he had a throwaway line about the clone wars in Star Wars so he came up with the dumb idea of the clone troopers to explain it and to play with CGI tech. Everyone except Lucas immediately thought the concept of the good guys using disposable humans was weird as hell so EU folks tried their best to explain it or have some insight on how a clone army would actually function.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Just as quick reminder (or clarification because it's a small piece of trivia that gets overlooked).

The Jedi lost the battle of Geonosis (Attack of the Clones ending) hard. Like super hard. All those light sabers you see light up in the distance? Almost all of them die. I don't remember the exact numbers, but basically the Jedi were left with about 10% of their Knights/Masters after that battle. So it would make sense that they moved into a self preservation mode once the Clone Wars started.

 

[Stalker]

Just as quick reminder (or clarification because it's a small piece of trivia that gets overlooked).

The Jedi lost the battle of Geonosis (Attack of the Clones ending) hard. Like super hard. All those light sabers you see light up in the distance? Almost all of them die. I don't remember the exact numbers, but basically the Jedi were left with about 10% of their Knights/Masters after that battle. So it would make sense that they moved into a self preservation mode once the Clone Wars started.

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The Jedi and in turn the republic won the battle of geonosis.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_On_the_Front_Lines

They also maintained superior numbers.

It is true however that 170 out of 200 jedi died.

 

[DIE BART DIE]

I realise I'm in the extreme minority, but the Clone Wars as presented in the prequels and prequel-related media do not represent how I visualised that mysterious conflict to be at all.

When Obi Wan briefly mentioned the Clone Wars in Star Wars, the image I had in my mind was of evil clones, or maybe a fascistic army akin to the android police in THX 1138. The clones were a villainous species to be overcome by the heroes in the story.

You could argue that subverting our expectations and having the clones be on the side of the "good guys" is a novel twist, but Lucas is simply not a talented enough writer to execute this idea while - importantly - marrying it with the existing universe as seen in the OT.

In my opinion the "Clone Wars" should never have been about the Republic having access to unlimited cloning technology. It's a weird conceit which kind of breaks the universe once you've introduced it. It also doesn't fit with the established OT, forces a series of clumsy retcons and doesn't really feel like a "Star Wars" idea anyway, feeling more like Star Trek or Battlestar-esque science fiction than science fantasy. The idea that clone troopers had chips in their heads which changed their allegiance on the fly is just weird and an unnecessary extra step in getting the Republic Army to become the Empire stormtroopers. Also, what is the satisfying reason for the Empire abandoning their elite clone troopers for the less than perfect human army in the OT? I'm sure a Visual Dictionary and the Clone Wars cartoon have explained that they were phased out in favour of human conscripts, but again, it's an awkward over-complication in my opinion when Star Wars' storytelling traditionally favoured straightforward, black and white, good vs. evil concepts.

One idea that could have worked is that the Clone Wars revolved around a mysterious marauding alien race (perhaps led by Darth Maul) from an unknown region of space which had recently found the means to self replicate. In response, the Republic, led by the ambitious and cunning politician Palpatine, "desperately" drafted anyone they could find across the galaxy into a Galactic Army to fend them off. Palpatine could still secretly be in league with the marauders, or alternatively, he could just be a slick politician with authoritarian tendencies who ascends to being Emperor through popularity with the masses.

After the end of the war (having blown up the alien cloning facilities, maybe), the Republic naturally evolves into an Empire when Palpatine and his strong military have proven successful in keeping order. Thus, the Galactic Army, comprised of drafted men and other species, organically become the stormtroopers.

While I'd definitely keep the idea that Palpatine is the grand mastermind manipulating both sides, it's very hard to write that without making either side look like colossal idiots...as the prequels demonstrated. As it stands, it's ridiculous the way that the Republic clone army was produced in secret on Kamino with nobody on the council seriously questioning where they came from. If I had written the prequels, my main priority would be to make the Clone Wars conflict organically flow into the events of the OT. The Republic/Empire having cloning tech opens up too many narrative cans of worms in my view.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Weren't the clones created in secret by Dooku or someone else? I remember a whole plot bit about going through libraries and files of a secret Jedi doing shady shit and then coming across the cloning ocean planet. Maybe Yoda and co went with it but the "heroes" aren't to blame for them thus may not have much to say about it.

 

[cognizant]

I just reached this scene where a Jedi humanises clones. See, stuff like this I find interesting, so kudos to the show for exploring stuff the movies didn't have time for.



Clone armies wielded by good guys is still a weird premise to me, but when Jedi tell clones that their lives matter, and when "never leave a man behind" is fundamental to their training, it creates this weirdly compelling idea that the Republic's notion of compassion slices through their problematic method of building armies.

DIE BART DIE's comments above still hold true in the grand scheme of things, but you have to appreciate the writers courageous attempts at saving Star Wars concepts from their original creator lol.

 

[I KILL PXLS]

I realise I'm in the extreme minority, but the Clone Wars as presented in the prequels and prequel-related media do not represent how I visualised that mysterious conflict to be at all.

When Obi Wan briefly mentioned the Clone Wars in Star Wars, the image I had in my mind was of evil clones, or maybe a fascistic army akin to the android police in THX 1138. The clones were a villainous species to be overcome by the heroes in the story.

Click to shrink...

I don't think you're in the minority on that at all. I always imagined it was at the very least a war with clones on both sides if not all on the enemy side.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Yep

Clone Master

Clone Master was a title used on Kamino. The clone troopers of the Grand Army of the Republic were created from the biological material Jango Fett provided to the Clone Masters on Kamino. Star Wars Helmet Collection 17 (Databank A-Z: Ewoks–Finn (FN-2187)) (First mentioned)

starwars.fandom.com

"Timothy Zahn, in his Thrawn Trilogy, cast the Clone Masters as the opponent of the Galactic Republic in the Clone Wars, as several authors of the '90s considered that the cloners and their clones were the "villains."

 

[sibarraz]

I always found funny how in the Episode II the clone army suddenly appears and the republic just say "cool, new army" without any question

 

[Not Spaceghost]

There are quite a few eps where the clones themselves wrestle with the idea that they were made and aren't treated like normal people, a few episodes about clones trying to carve identities out for themselves for a sense of individuality.

 

[pez2k]

You could argue that subverting our expectations and having the clones be on the side of the "good guys" is a novel twist, but Lucas is simply not a talented enough writer to execute this idea while - importantly - marrying it with the existing universe as seen in the OT.

Click to shrink...

I think it's actually a very simple explanation out-of-universe - the heroes need to be chopping up plenty of bad guys in lightsaber combat, so the bad guys need to be non-living robots in order to remain family-friendly. As a result, the living clones have to be on the good side so that they don't get chopped up.

Lucas may well have had more in-depth ideas than that, but I can't see how they would have had the same sort of Jedi-glorifying combat scenes with living targets without the prequels being a lot more grim.

 

[808s & Villainy]

I've only watched 3 episodes, hence my asking this exact question in my post above. Given the scenes I've witnessed already, it's looking doubtful. But hopefully people who have watched the entire show can chime in. I'm looking for scenes of the protagonists, Jedi and Republic leaders simply asking whether they're doing the right thing or not.

Click to shrink...

Come on man

 

[Dr. Mario]

Qui-Gon also just immediately accepted slave driver Watto's legitimate ownership of slaves and did nothing to save anyone else than Anakin, who he abducted away from his mother as an interesting study object.

From my point of view the Jedi are evil.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

If you don't care about spoilers, they discuss the exact issue here

"Many of us clones wish the war never happened, but without it, we wouldn't exist"

Click to shrink...

That, kinda this

couple others as well

 

[cognizant]

Come on man

Click to shrink...

The question of this thread is about the SW franchise as a whole, not exclusively about the Clone Wars show. But given that the first two episodes of the show that I've watched quite literally depict Jedi characters brushing off the ethics of clones, it inspired the thread. You can contribute to the discussion if you like.

 

[RiOrius]

Weren't the clones created in secret by Dooku or someone else? I remember a whole plot bit about going through libraries and files of a secret Jedi doing shady shit and then coming across the cloning ocean planet. Maybe Yoda and co went with it but the "heroes" aren't to blame for them thus may not have much to say about it.

Click to shrink...

Right, but the point is, when the Jedi, the bastions of light and order, find an army of brainwashed clones raised to be soldiers, they don't say "hey, you all are sentient beings with the right to free will and independence." They say "oh that's convenient: there's an army of robots on the other side, and I guess y'all will be our equivalent."