The hate against Vaan (FF12) is unfair and frankly weird

[Elephant]

I dislike Vaan for the same reasons I dislike FFXII in general: plain and boring, especially when compared to the FF games and protagonists that came before it.

But then it's a video game and like... Opinions, man! it's no more weird for people to dislike him, than the people who like him.

 

[Vault]

The idea that Vaan was a last minute addition is complete nonsense.

Him and Ashe were the first characters shown to the public nearly 3 years before the game came out.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The idea that Vaan was a last minute addition is complete nonsense.

Him and Ashe were the first characters shown to the public nearly 3 years before the game came out.

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This

But according to the poster a few posts above, Matsuno was not present at work for 3 years before Square removed him from the project. LMAO

 

[plexxrock]

This

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matsuno was forced by the square board to change the originally intended maincharacter of the game, you realize the reason he left square (left, as in didn't just take paid leave) is because they refused to let him carry out his vision to the point he suffered a nervous breakdown.

this is why he wanted nothing to do with square for years after. it's no secret really the amount of talent that has left square since the merger into square/enix happened. practically every fucking person that created and built squaresoft into the j-rpg powerhouse aren't there anymore.

they are still active, yet somehow they still aren't working with square, wonder why huh?

now sit the fuck back down and eat your bland ass spagetti dinner.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

matsuno was forced by the square board to change the originally intended maincharacter of the game, you realize the reason he left square (left, as in didn't just take paid leave) is because they refused to let him carry out his vision to the point he suffered a nervous breakdown.

this is why he wanted nothing to do with square for years after. it's no secret really the amount of talent that has left square since the merger into square/enix happened. practically every fucking person that created and built squaresoft into the j-rpg powerhouse aren't there anymore.

they are still active, yet somehow they still aren't working with square, wonder why huh?

now sit the fuck back down and eat your bland ass spagetti dinner.

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Inb4 "Matsuno is obviously lying because that doesn't fit my narrative!!"

 

[roflwaffles]

I know nothing about Vaan, but I know that like Tidus, his character design was trash.

Vaan's design was bad enough that I didn't order the game.

 

[Aurica]

Disappointed that the first post wasn't, "I'm captain Basch!"

 

[LegendofLex]

I don't think Vaan and Penelo should have been axed, but the game should have followed Ashe's perspective and had Vaan and Penelo be party members you recruit later. A big part of the reason why people dislike them is because even though Vaan does have a narrative point he still feels largely sidelined for most of the game after the party comes together and even if he isn't bad, the other party members feel more interesting and important.

Having Ashe be the MC would have been the best decision given that her motivations and quest to gain back control of her country forms most of the plot, and it would have led to a much more coherent story.

Granted it doesn't help that most of Penelo's backstory and characterization was cut.

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I strongly disagree.

Ashe's perspective doesn't provide a good frame for getting introduced to this world and it's current conflicts. Vaan's definitely does. He's not a principal player in the game's backstory and twists, and therefore can learn about the worry the same way the player does. He doesn't harbor any secret identities or dark past that needs to be obscured to the player until later in the story; we actually play through the events that set the context for his ties to the current state of affairs before ever taking control of him.

His motivations aren't complex--he's not a deposed princess or a disgraced knight or a prodigal son of nobility--and it doesn't require a lot of work on the part of the player to inhabit his shoes.

He's better as a persistent POV character because you're never wondering what he's going to do; he can fade into the background and serve as a stand-in for the player and your own motivations.

 

[Aurica]

matsuno was forced by the square board to change the originally intended maincharacter of the game, you realize the reason he left square (left, as in didn't just take paid leave) is because they refused to let him carry out his vision to the point he suffered a nervous breakdown.

this is why he wanted nothing to do with square for years after. it's no secret really the amount of talent that has left square since the merger into square/enix happened. practically every fucking person that created and built squaresoft into the j-rpg powerhouse aren't there anymore.

they are still active, yet somehow they still aren't working with square, wonder why huh?

now sit the fuck back down and eat your bland ass spagetti dinner.

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Don't believe Andor's lies! Gonna need some sources when all the info I find online disputes your ideas.

Akihiko Yoshida talks about the character initially being different in appearance in 2003 in an interview with IGN. He says the scenario shaping up and bringing the targeted demographic into consideration made them change the appearance to be more effeminate. When the voice actor was cast, he changed to become a bit less effeminate. You have this conspiracy, but it seems to me like the game just developed naturally over time, like a regular game.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/441/441293p1.html

 

[Eppcetera]

I mean, it's not an unfair criticism, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who are sincere about this. But I think a lot of people, consciously or not, aren't truly motivated by that argument.

There's an entire universe of characters in FF who wear clothing that's extremely inappropriate for the given environment, and none of them get this same level of hate.

I'm reminded of the announcement of FF Mobius.

Back at the old place, before the split, there was an extremely visceral and negative reaction to the design of the main character, a guy dressed in the the same super impractical, ultra revealing nonsense as half of all female FF characters.

As a bi man, I was really happy to see a dude get the same stupid, sexy, objectifying treatment women get in these games. I fuck with this. But the reaction was so strong, Square relented and covered up his chest, since it was just so upsetting to male fans.

The only difference between these characters and their lady counterparts is that they're men displaying their sexuality—sexuality of, dare i say it, a slightly submissive nature.

Here, male presenting nipples are not to be tolerated.

EDIT: Unless, of course, they're MANLY nipples. Nipples for MANLY men no homo.

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I find this perspective interesting, and it's good to know other people appreciated Vaan's design, even if I didn't. I'm not sure if women in games wearing dumb outfits excuses men to do the same. To me, it would seem more logical for both genders to wear intelligent clothing, or for the revealing clothing to at least be used to develop a character in some way rather than to exist as sheer eye candy (for instance, I like how Velvet wears tattered and revealing rags in Tales of Berseria because she's so focused on revenge that she can't be bothered to find adequate clothing; that said, I still made the character wear a different outfit since I thought her rags looked stupid). Back to Vaan: as I mentioned in an earlier post, his design annoyed me at first, but that was just my superficial first impression. I wasn't keen on Vaan after his reveal, sure, but it was his uninteresting characterization in the game that makes me highly critical of his character. His appearance is the opposite of Lightning, for me, as the latter is a character whose design made me excited for her, although both Vaan and Lightning ended up letting me down as characters in stories. While I enjoy making fun of Vaan for looking silly, the reason why I don't care for him has more to do with how he bored me as a character.

His motivations aren't complex--he's not a deposed princess or a disgraced knight or a prodigal son of nobility--and it doesn't require a lot of work on the part of the player to inhabit his shoes.

He's better as a persistent POV character because you're never wondering what he's going to do; he can fade into the background and serve as a stand-in for the player and your own motivations.

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Those are all reasons why I don't like Vaan as a protagonist, as they're what make him different from Ramza and Ashley, Matsuno protagonists that I think are impressive, well-developed characters with intriguing narratives. I don't want to play a Final Fantasy with characters that stand in for the player, as I think the biggest improvement that Final Fantasy IV made over its immediate predecessor was ditching the player stand-ins and making Cecil a character distinct from the player. I've never played Final Fantasy games, or even Matsuno games, for characters like Vaan.

 

[ErichWK]

Vaan is fine. His design just sucks. It's a shame Penelo is so fucking useless, too. The other 4 cast members are some of my favorite in the series, though!

 

[Craymond]

Vaan is annoying. It's the exact same reason I can't watch Naruto. And it does give me pause from buying FFXII again for Switch, after PS2.

 

[closer]

Weird and unfair hate is my gaming experience tho

 

[Axelstream]

I like Vaan and I appreciate his role in the story. I agree with Freeglader that his childlike awe lends a uniquely whimsical tone to an otherwise somber story. What's more, he gives weight to the story's core theme, which is the cost of wielding power. JRPG heroes are generally removed from society in some way — they're usually in a position not constrained by money or social status, giving them freedom to move about the world and interact with all sorts of people — so when calamities strike, games often use faceless, underwritten NPCs to show the damage.

Vaan is a street urchin with no one left to look out for him, save Penelo. He loses his brother in a war that means nothing to him. Until he is strung along in the game's plot, he is trapped not only physically, by wealth and class and connections, but also psychologically by his anger and helplessness. When he comes to terms with the knowledge that his desire for vengeance stems only from grief, it's a microcosm for the larger conflicts to come. Ultimately, it's all of these things — his cheerful wonder at the world, his position as a nameless orphan ground up in the cycle of war, and his personal realization of the pointlessness of vengeance — that make him such an excellent foil to Ashe. Their situations and emotions are so similar, but Ashe is in a position to destroy nations. It's only with and through Vaan's perspective that she doesn't.

If I had one criticism, it's that Vaan's character arc peaks pretty early, and he doesn't have much of a hook in the story going forward. Balthier has personal mysteries; the entire game leads up to Ashe's decision; even Basch, who I think is one of the less interesting characters, has a score to settle with Gabranth.

 

[fontguy]

I find this perspective interesting, and it's good to know other people appreciated Vaan's design, even if I didn't. I'm not sure if women in games wearing dumb outfits excuses men to do the same. To me, it would seem more logical for both genders to wear intelligent clothing, or for the revealing clothing to at least be used to develop a character in some way rather than to exist as sheer eye candy (for instance, I like how Velvet wears tattered and revealing rags in Tales of Berseria because she's so focused on revenge that she can't be bothered to find adequate clothing; that said, I still made the character wear a different outfit since I thought her rags looked stupid).

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None of this is to say that mindless indulgence is necessarily ideal, but I think the primary thing that makes our current media diet of sexual objectification so shitty is that it applies only to women. Women are submissive, sexual objects that exist first and foremost for your pleasure, while men alone exist to function with power and agency.

Modern Final Fantasy is so comfortable with breaking logic in service of aesthetics and eye candy that it permeates the series. Blitzball, for example, makes zero sense, but the things that make it nonsensical also make it visually unique—fantastical, even. I think it's a very small leap to take this same approach with characters' clothing. But when it's applied selectively to one gender, the game is making a statement about who, exactly, is above this kind of treatment. Who deserves better, and who is free game. And wouldn't ya know it, it's the men who always wind up conspicuously above the fray.

I think there is room for indulgent stuff that just says "Here, enjoy these dumb, sexy characters as they look for crystals or whatever." But it needs to be applied evenly.

Back to Vaan: as I mentioned in an earlier post, his design annoyed me at first, but that was just my superficial first impression. I wasn't keen on Vaan after his reveal, sure, but it was his uninteresting characterization in the game that makes me highly critical of his character. His appearance is the opposite of Lightning, for me, as the latter is a character whose design made me excited for her, although both Vaan and Lightning ended up letting me down as characters in stories. While I enjoy making fun of Vaan for looking silly, the reason why I don't care for him has more to do with how he bored me as a character.

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I've never played FFXII so I can't speak to how he was written. But like I said, this is not a dismissal of all criticism of Vaan (again, haven't played it). I just think it's pretty apparent where a significant amount of the hate is really coming from.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

I think it was partly because he was effeminate that he got so much flak. At least, there was a lot of that driving it early on. Gamers get really weird about sexy male characters while maligning how obsessed women are with sexualization.

 

[Dogenzaka]

it's pretty funny how everyone hated Vaan's design but as a bi dude i was very much into his design since day one. still one of my favorites, if i'm being honest. i thought his Revenant Wings design was decidedly a downgrade.

 

[cubicle47b]

He was hated from the moment his design was revealed because of that outfit. I play as Basch as soon as he becomes available.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

He was hated from the moment his design was revealed because of that outfit. I play as Basch as soon as he becomes available.

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[Exist 2 Inspire]

I forgot everything about Vaan, can't say the same for pretty much any other FF protag.

 

[cubicle47b]

I'm okay with that. Basch is awesome (and his outfit is great).

 

[fontguy]

I'm okay with that. Basch is awesome (and his outfit is great).

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"Basch's outfit is great but Vaan's is unbearable."

Bruh, who are you trying to kid here?

 

[Slime]

I've always wondered if things would have been different if that ab texture wasn't so disturbing

 

[cubicle47b]

"Basch's outfit is great but Vaan's is unbearable."

Bruh, who are you trying to kid here?

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I didn't say it was unbearable. I said people hated it from the initial reveal. He's an okay character with a really bad design. The hair and the vest are both awful. Basch, Balthier, and Larsa all have incredible designs.

 

[Lakershead22]

I agree with everything you said OP. I just finishedfinished FFXII for the second time since releasing in 2006 and I never understood the hate for Vaan.

 

[Dream Machine]

Basch would be better if he dropped the undershirt... thing. Basch and Ashe both have weird upper body wardrobe that look like they would be falling off or riding up if they moved literally at all.

Say what you will, but at least everyone else in the party's clothes look like they would stay on their bodies.

 

[Narroo]

I finished FFXII recently on Switch (outstanding port btw, you owe it to yourself to play it if you haven't) and I found 100% of the criticism leveled at FFXII very overblown and like your post shows, sometimes very unfounded.

- Battle system is outstanding, it's a shame SE didn't build upon it on future titles or at least a new Ivalice games franchise or something. The gambit system was genius and ahead of its time. The fast forward feature in the Switch port makes it even better. God, imagine an improved version of the gambit system using boolean logic and control flow structures *drools*

- Characters are some of my favorites in FF games, period. I think only the FFIX cast beats this one for me, Vaan included. They're really well thought out, have magnificent characterization, are all independent characters with their own reasons to be there and the supporting cast is also really good.

- Ivalice is the best setting in a FF game as far as I'm concerned. I knew it when I played FFTA2 and I know it now.

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You realize they overhauled the battle system in the releases, right? The original NA version of XII on the PS2 didn't not play that well, at all.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

You know what, OP, you bring up a lot of good points about Vaan. None of them budge my opinion that Final Fantasy XII in general is dreadfully dull across the board and one of my least favorite games in the series, BUT after reading your frankly excellent post I will admit that I think I've had Vaan figured wrong all this time. I still don't like his design at all, but I was one of those people who claimed he had no relevance to the story and might as well not be there, and I now stand corrected. Thank you for the insight. :)

As a matter of fact, I feel this exact same way about FF XIII's Hope. People love to clown on him and give him all kinds of shit just for being emotional, but the kid is a heavily sheltered 15-year-old who had a very close relationship with his mother before she became a casualty of war. Ninety-nine percent of the people who clown on him would be also be a weepy, emotional mess if they found themselves in the same position. He also has a strained, antagonistic relationship with his father (at least at the time we meet him), which doesn't help things. Hope did nothing wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Squid Bunny]

I actually thought about making a topic like this after I finished FFXII two weeks ago.

I think the hate for Vaan comes from a misunderstanding that being the protagonist and being the audience surrogate in a JRPG has to be the same thing. I mean, 99% of the time they are. Even games that begin with the main character as just an audience surrogate end up with him being the Very Special Person (i.e. Tales of Symphonia). But Vaan is just a surrogate through and through, and IMO exists as a pretty much great foil to Ashe.

The best comparison I can think of is that Vaan is the Watson to Ashe's Sherlock. Of course, Ashe is the driving force behind the plot and narravtive, but it is told through the eyes of the less celebrated companion.

 

[fontguy]

I didn't say it was unbearable. I said people hated it from the initial reveal. He's an okay character with a really bad design. The hair and the vest are both awful. Basch, Balthier, and Larsa all have incredible designs.

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See, this is why I can't take your argument at face value. You say Vaan has a stupid vest, and that Basch looks great.

Basch looks like he violently crashed through a pomade store running from the cops for stealing a street performer's juggling vest.

 

[jviggy43]

I honestly dont remember a single thing about him and I played the entire game. Totally not interesting and unremarkable which is the worst kind of protagonist.

 

[cubicle47b]

See, this is why I can't take your argument at face value. You say Vaan has a stupid vest, and that Basch looks great.

Basch looks like he violently crashed through a pomade store running from the cops for stealing a street performer's juggling vest.

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I don't know. I like the vest and undershirt combo with the leather straps and shoulder armor. It works well with the rest of his design. Little things can make a big difference. For what it's worth, there are plenty of other designs in FF XII I don't like besides Vaan's, including what Basch is wearing when you rescue him.

 

[Disclaimer]

See, this is why I can't take your argument at face value. You say Vaan has a stupid vest, and that Basch looks great.

Basch looks like he violently crashed through a pomade store running from the cops for stealing a street performer's juggling vest.

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What's happening aesthetically, I think, is that Basch could look great in almost anything, and so the absurd ab window is... unprotested.

Vaan's in-game model is a bit less handsome than his intro CGI self, and it just can't pull off the Aladdin look. His model's face looks pouty. Revenant Wings adding the shirt helps make Vaan more dashing, someone whom one could buy dreaming to be a sky pirate.

(And I'm not a Vaan hater in the slightest, for the record. People's issues with him as a character often come off as a case of collective misremembering. He's a fine character and integral to the game's resolution and themes.)

 

[dasu]

I actually always liked Vaan's outfit (I didn't realize that people disliked his design this much). It's definitely out there, but I liked that it used bright colors without being garish, and I liked the mix of materials. To me it was all just very fanciful.

 

[cubicle47b]

What's happening aesthetically, I think, is that Basch could look great in almost anything, and so the absurd ab window is... unprotested.

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That's (mostly) fair. There's a picture comparing Chris Hemsworth's Thor with Basch in my Google images search. His rescue outfit is still atrocious.

 

[Polioliolio]

Hm, I liked him generally, but those abs were really out there. It's like he's playing this doe eyed little heroic boy, and oh, sorry, are my abs showing? Oops, silly me.

 

[K' Dash]

You realize they overhauled the battle system in the releases, right? The original NA version of XII on the PS2 didn't not play that well, at all.

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I played the whole game in fast forward mode, if I had to play those battles in normal speed I would have stopped playing very early in the game.

What did they change?

 

[cubicle47b]

What did they change?

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I don't remember the battle system changing much, but the original game didn't have classes so you had one generic license board you filled out for each character.

 

[noyram23]

They should remove Vaan and Fran outright tbh

 

[Hucast]

vaan and tidus are high garbage tier character's. and tied for nr 1 as worst ff protags ever.

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True. Both of em

 

[Hogendaz85]

He was okay and much better than Caar.

 

[K' Dash]

I don't remember the battle system changing much, but the original game didn't have classes so you had one generic license board you filled out for each character.

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I definitely ruined Basch in my game with those license boards, I chose foebraker and then Uhlan. Terrible combo. Uhlan has a lot of magic enhancements but don't have any spells and foebraker does not have any spells at all, so I just used him as a tank... Since this game loves to fuck you up with status effects he was almost useless for me, even though I kept all 6 members even leveled..

 

[Narroo]

I played the whole game in fast forward mode, if I had to play those battles in normal speed I would have stopped playing very early in the game.

What did they change?

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(Note: There are two re-releases: The PS2 "International Version" which was only released in Japan, and is region locked and in Japanese, and the HD-releases we have now. Most of the changes are from the Japanese "International Edition.")

Well, obviously they added in fast forward.

Also, the job-system. There was no job system in the original release. Everyone had the same generic board which consisted of two blobs; equipment blob and skill blob. It was very easy to get most of the usable licenses for every character you were using, so you're characters would all mostly be the same.

There was, correspondingly, a bunch of re-balancing going on to account for this.

Also: gambits. You got gambits much more quickly in the releases. The original version leaked them out very slowly and tended to make bad ones available for sale first. They also added in a few more gambits to make the system more useful.

Treasure chests. They redid a bunch of treasure chests. The original version was particularly obnoxious regarding spawn rules and drop rates.

Summons: Summons could not be controlled at all in the original version. They were much more useless.

Also magic: This is unique to the HD releases, but magic got a major buff. In the original PS2 version, magic could cause a lot of slow down, so the game would queue all magic spells characters and enemies cast to play them one at a time. Combined with slow-ish animations, magic was situational. The HD re-release removed this limitation.

I believe that the HD-releases had a few other changes aside from the magic buff; I think they did some extra re-balancing on top of the Japan-only "International" version's changes. For example, the bonus dungeon mode: You can import earned items into your save file. Couldn't do that in the original re-release

 

[skeezx]

The idea that Vaan was a last minute addition is complete nonsense.

Him and Ashe were the first characters shown to the public nearly 3 years before the game came out.

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out of my ass speculation but i'm guessing there's some crossover between the rumors. Vaan wasn't glomed on at the last minute but his inception very much a boardroom by committee thing. probably one of many factors that lead to matsuno bailing, but not the factor

 

[harry the spy]

I always thought that a good amount of vaan hatred was toxic masculinity. The character was not particularly interesting but the hate for the design? Effeminate blonde boy who shows his body ? Can't have any of that in my power fantasy! This place is better behaved than most on the internet but if I had a dime for every time I read he looked gay..

I always thought he looked fine in an aladdin-y way.

It shouldn't have been about vaan vs Basch vs balthier anyway - the story is Ashe's primarily. Wish her role had been even more central (at least she is by herself in the best scene of the game - meeting the occuria). Plus for once they fridge the husband and not the wife.

 

[Encephalon]

The problem with Vaan is that he should never have been in the game. He's part of the reason the story isn't what it could have been. Basch should have been the main character as Matsuno intended.

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This take makes no sense. The story isn't even focused on Vaan despite nominally being the main character. It's centered around Ashe. There's nothing stopping Basch from being a more interesting character or driving the plot. He just isn't.

 

[Everywhere]

He is whatever, especially compared to the rest of the cast.

But certainly not deserving of hate.

 

[Worldshaker]

vaan and tidus are high garbage tier character's. and tied for nr 1 as worst ff protags ever.

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Yeah they're both terribly designed characters with mediocre stories.

I don't mind Vaan really, but I dislike that they advertised him as the main character.

 

[Valcrist]

This take makes no sense. The story isn't even focused on Vaan despite nominally being the main character. It's centered around Ashe. There's nothing stopping Basch from being a more interesting character or driving the plot. He just isn't.

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I'm saying Vaan is the reason Matsuno left development among some other changes they wanted to make. He made it pretty clear that he did not like other people making changes to his story.

MC Basch would have been better.

 

[Hucast]

Someone that said that vaan's face looks like a failed plastic surgery in this thread is pretty spot on