God damn, what a horrible story. Death penalty cannot be the answer, specially in these cases. This could have been avoided years ago.
I'm not glad she's dead, I'm opposed to the death penalty. I'm equally opposed to Bobbie Jo Stanford's life being ignored for her murders plight. I'm an abuse survivor myself and I'm not insympathetic but it's fucked up that Bobbie Jo Stanford has somehow, like so many other victims Ben supplanted in the public eye by her murderer.Because this thread is about the state murdering a mentally ill person.
What is this:
"Lisa Montgomery suffered horrible abuse but keep in mind she already had children of her own, 4 I think."?
For people like you, who clearly don't want to entertain the idea that she was mentally ill, her going to jail for life ought to have been justice enough.
Don't be a coward, just come out and say you're glad she's dead.
Knowing America, a couple of them probably ended up on court seats or became cops.
I'm not glad she's dead, I'm opposed to the death penalty. I'm equally opposed to Bobbie Jo Stanford's life being ignored for her murders plight. I'm an abuse survivor myself and I'm not insympathetic but it's fucked up that Bobbie Jo Stanford has somehow, like so many other victims Ben supplanted in the public eye by her murderer.
Her life wasn't ignored
Montgomery was not a free woman, and this thread is specifically here is about Montgomery's life and now her death.
Yes.
You're literally forgiving her murderer and absolving her of any guilt by shifting the blame to outside forces, making excuses for her and justifying what she did by claiming she had no choice or control over her own actions. You would turn the murderer into the victim, as if murder is somehow excusable as long as the state doesn't do it.
I fail to see how you're not making a bigger deal out of Lisa Montgomery being wrongly executed than you are of Bobbie Jo Stinnett being murdered. Just because Lisa Montgomery did not deserve to be executed doesn't change the fact that she did something truly unforgivable that she could never atone for and that alone is grounds to no longer feel sorry for her.
If you're truly determined to excuse what she did because she was abused, then would it not be hypocritical for you to refuse to extend that same compassion to her abusers? Kind of a slippery slope that, though. Before you know it you'll be arguing that the Manson family were the victims, not Sharon Tate and the people at her party.
Nothing, absolutely nothing justified giving her the death penalty, it wasn't just murdering her in revenge or letting her go free.You're literally forgiving her murderer and absolving her of any guilt by shifting the blame to outside forces, making excuses for her and justifying what she did by claiming she had no choice or control over her own actions. You would turn the murderer into the victim, as if murder is somehow excusable as long as the state doesn't do it.
I fail to see how you're not making a bigger deal out of Lisa Montgomery being wrongly executed than you are of Bobbie Jo Stinnett being murdered. Just because Lisa Montgomery did not deserve to be executed doesn't change the fact that she did something truly unforgivable that she could never atone for and that alone is grounds to no longer feel sorry for her.
If you're truly determined to excuse what she did because she was abused, then would it not be hypocritical for you to refuse to extend that same compassion to her abusers? Kind of a slippery slope that, though. Before you know it you'll be arguing that the Manson family were the victims, not Sharon Tate and the people at her party.
You're literally forgiving her murderer and absolving her of any guilt by shifting the blame to outside forces, making excuses for her and justifying what she did by claiming she had no choice or control over her own actions. You would turn the murderer into the victim, as if murder is somehow excusable as long as the state doesn't do it.
I fail to see how you're not making a bigger deal out of Lisa Montgomery being wrongly executed than you are of Bobbie Jo Stinnett being murdered. Just because Lisa Montgomery did not deserve to be executed doesn't change the fact that she did something truly unforgivable that she could never atone for and that alone is grounds to no longer feel sorry for her.
If you're truly determined to excuse what she did because she was abused, then would it not be hypocritical for you to refuse to extend that same compassion to her abusers? Kind of a slippery slope that, though. Before you know it you'll be arguing that the Manson family were the victims, not Sharon Tate and the people at her party.
Nothing, absolutely nothing justified giving her the death penalty, it wasn't just murdering her in revenge or letting her go free.
You do realize, of course, that not killing her would not have been the same as forgiving her? What did you think was going to happen if the death penalty had been overturned, that they would just open the door and let her walk free?How can anyone side with her over her victim like this? 'cause that's exactly what people in this thread are doing when they go out of their way to justify and excuse what she did.
This is a horrible straw man that doesn't even deserve a response. Do better.You're literally forgiving her murderer and absolving her of any guilt by shifting the blame to outside forces, making excuses for her and justifying what she did by claiming she had no choice or control over her own actions. You would turn the murderer into the victim, as if murder is somehow excusable as long as the state doesn't do it.
I fail to see how you're not making a bigger deal out of Lisa Montgomery being wrongly executed than you are of Bobbie Jo Stinnett being murdered. Just because Lisa Montgomery did not deserve to be executed doesn't change the fact that she did something truly unforgivable that she could never atone for and that alone is grounds to no longer feel sorry for her.
If you're truly determined to excuse what she did because she was abused, then would it not be hypocritical for you to refuse to extend that same compassion to her abusers? Kind of a slippery slope that, though. Before you know it you'll be arguing that the Manson family were the victims, not Sharon Tate and the people at her party.
This is a horrible straw man that doesn't even deserve a response. Do better.
I never said it was. I absolutely disagree with the death penalty and, even more than that, rushing through an execution immediately before the government assumes new leadership and makes capital punishment illegal is incredibly fucked up.
Even so, the framing some are using in this thread and the lengths those people will go to defend this woman and excuse her actions is worrying to say the least.
She lied to, manipulated and murdered an innocent, pregnant, woman. You can't get any more premeditated than what Lisa Montgomery did and I don't see how you can say she wasn't of sound mind when she did it, either, when she falsified her identity, pretended to be pregnant and was able to gain entry into the home of her victim with the sole intention of killing her and stealing her unborn child.
How can anyone side with her over her victim like this? 'cause that's exactly what people in this thread are doing when they go out of their way to justify and excuse what she did.
You do realize, of course, that not killing her would not have been the same as forgiving her? What did you think was going to happen if the death penalty had been overturned, that they would just open the door and let her walk free?
And I'm for the death penalty in certain cases. This wasn't one of them.
There are, as far as I can tell, three types of people in this thread:
I'm firmly in the second camp. I would not have forgiven her for what she did, nor would I have justified or excused her actions nor absolved her of her guilt. Stinnet's murder was intentional and premeditated and that is still the greatest tragedy of this whole situation.
- Some are glad she's dead because they believe murderers are the scum of the earth and less than human or whatever;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was still a murderer and thus should have spent the rest of her life in prison or a hospital;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was the victim and thus cannot be held accountable nor punished for what she did.
The issue is, though, that folks in that third group don't agree with that. There are many posts from them clearly stating they sympathise with her because of her past and how society has failed her. In fact they don't even think about Stinnet, let alone bring her up, unless you make them. It makes you feel as though her murder no longer matters, which cannot be allowed to happen. Bobbie Jo Stinnet was the victim here, not Lisa Montgomery, and it would be nice for that to be acknowleged.
There are, as far as I can tell, three types of people in this thread:
I'm firmly in the second camp. I would not have forgiven her for what she did, nor would I have justified or excused her actions nor absolved her of her guilt. Stinnet's murder was intentional and premeditated and that is still the greatest tragedy of this whole situation.
- Some are glad she's dead because they believe murderers are the scum of the earth and less than human or whatever;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was still a murderer and thus should have spent the rest of her life in prison or a hospital;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was the victim and thus cannot be held accountable nor punished for what she did.
The issue is, though, that folks in that third group don't agree with that. There are many posts from them clearly stating they sympathise with Montgomery because of her past and how society has failed her. In fact they don't even think about Stinnet, let alone bring her up, unless you make them. It makes you feel as though her murder no longer matters, which cannot be allowed to happen. Bobbie Jo Stinnet was the victim here, not Lisa Montgomery, and it would be nice for that to be acknowleged.
Oh you mean the pro-life loving Christians are only pro-life in a very extremely hyper narrow sense of the phrase?Death penalty is horrible. I find it awful that so many people stating they're Christians believe in it and support it.
She doesn't even belong in prison, she should be in mental health hospital. Terrible tragedy and terrible story.
It actually opened a fascinating door though
I neglected to mention Patricia Krenwinkel also gets parole hearings, now like Tex she won't get out, but that rehabilitation door isn't 100% closed, and that's for the two surviving members of the Manson family who directly murdered multiple people.
I'm glad she brought them up in such a weak gotcha because looking at them, it actually strengthens not weakens the stance of those who do not believe this was justice served properly
You're rhetoric and distortions far puts you closer to being #1 and not #2 on your list.
But what do I know I supposedly support the Manson family
Are you implying I said her execution was justice served, despite saying several times that it was the wrong thing to do? That's the only context in which calling what I said a "gotcha moment"...
...wait...
Yep, that explains a lot. Thanks for falsely accusing me of supporting the death penalty despite several obvious statements to the contrary. I didn't even say you support the Manson family, either, but I guess it's easier to misrepresent and vilify people who refuse to sympathise with murderers than to show any compassion for their victims.
Her whole life to date seems like one sadistic never ending hell.
There's also a serious lack of details on the fate of her heinously evil mother (Judy Shaughnessy) and quotes from Lisa herself or maybe it's just google being google (trash search engine).
Did her mother, stepbrother or any of the men who raped her prison time?
Pretty sure without them all this wouldn't have happned, and if somebody is "subhuman trash", its them.
There are, as far as I can tell, three types of people in this thread:
I'm firmly in the second camp. I would not have forgiven her for what she did, nor would I have justified or excused her actions nor absolved her of her guilt. Stinnet's murder was intentional and premeditated and that is still the greatest tragedy of this whole situation.
- Some are glad she's dead because they believe murderers are the scum of the earth and less than human or whatever;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was still a murderer and thus should have spent the rest of her life in prison or a hospital;
- Some think executing her was wrong but she was the victim and thus cannot be held accountable nor punished for what she did.
The issue is, though, that folks in that third group don't agree with that. There are many posts from them clearly stating they sympathise with Montgomery because of her past and how society has failed her. In fact they don't even think about Stinnet, let alone bring her up, unless you make them. It makes you feel as though her murder no longer matters, which cannot be allowed to happen. Bobbie Jo Stinnet was the victim here, not Lisa Montgomery, and it would be nice for that to be acknowleged.
I mean can you complain about being misrepresented when you're misrepresenting half of the thread by saying there are people arguing she has no accountability and shouldn't face any punishment at all when literally nobody in this thread has said anything of the sort? Literally nobody has refused to show compassion for the victims either. Sympathizing with the conditions that led a person to murder and having compassions for the victim aren't mutually exclusive. In fact I'd argue that being able to sympathize with the conditions that led to such crimes can be an expression of compassion for the victims, because in recognizing that societal and environmental factors influence people's choices and decisions we can gain an awareness of steps that can be taken to prevent future crimes and reduce victims long run. The death penalty (and hell, nonnegotiable life sentences with no chance of parole) don't actually do jack shit in preventing crimes because people don't do these things with the intent of being caught in the first place. Improving societal conditions and destroying the cycles of abuse absolutely do prevent crime on the other hand. But removing bad actors after it's too late is easy and actual rehabilitation and reform is hard so people like the quick, feel good solution that doesn't work over the hard, long term one that doesAre you implying I said her execution was justice served, despite saying several times that it was the wrong thing to do? That's the only context in which calling what I said a "gotcha moment"...
...wait...
Yep, that explains a lot. Thanks for falsely accusing me of supporting the death penalty despite several obvious statements to the contrary. I didn't even say you support the Manson family, either, but I guess it's easier to misrepresent and vilify people who refuse to sympathise with murderers than to show any compassion for their victims.