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Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
Possible in a tech demo. Like the God of War Art Director said in his tweets, making a 30+ hour game with that kind of fidelity is a whole other story.
I wouldn't go as far as to say you are concern trolling OP but you definitely need to get out your bubble. Graphics are not the end all be all for the majority of gamers. Nintendo will continue to sell a ton of software even after this demo. Games with cool art styles will continue to sell even if they are not on the bleeding edge of tech( souls games this gen). This raises the bar but ultimately changes nothing.
 

MysteryM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,747
I liked the unreal demo and have watched it multiple times, but given the engine isn't even shipping until 2021, it will be interesting to see reactions when the ps5 showcase doesn't reach this kind no lod level. Its a tech demo and the internet (rightly or wrongly) have decided that this is the expectation for next gen ps5 games.

Games will look better as the generation progresses, but the ps5 reveal is going to need some stunners.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,476
Dallas, TX
The situation seems roughly the same as his generation, that the bottleneck is more labor than tech. The current consoles technically can produce RDR2 and TLoU2, but the amount of labor needed to do it is uneconomical for any game that's not a guaranteed mega-hit. If there is a greater than 5% chance of your game underselling 10 million copies, you can't risk the cost of going that all out. And even then it requires insane crunch.

Someone with a lot of money and a very safe IP will make a game that uses all those features to the extent you're seeing in that demo, but that's sort of it. The real advantage will be if the ability to directly export from modeling software and not having to figure out what geometry you need to cheat into shaders to save on your polygon budget that they're touting here saves some of that labor time. Or if ray-tracing saves some of the work that was previously spent trying to fake realistic lighting. But I'm not nearly tech savvy enough to know if those sorts of things would pan out

And you had Geoff trying to hype next-gen by quote-retweeting the IGN article about lowering expectations for next-gen acting like an idealized tech demo somehow refutes an article saying to manage expectations for the graphics of actual consumer games...

I hope people are understanding when actual next-gen gameplay (not in-engine cutscene trailer shit) is revealed and it is closer to the Inside Xbox than the UE5 demo.

The sort of gloating about how impressive next gen really is is especially weird since this demo still feels like a pretty strong case for diminishing returns. I can look at the geometry on those statues, at the lighting, at that quick flyover of the temple and say "oh cool, that looks great and definitely couldn't be done before", but it's hardly as immediately wowing as, say, that early PS4 Killzone demo was, which in turn was hardly as wowing as the early Gears of War demos for 360 were. This is impressive for sure, but also undoubtedly a more marginal visual improvement than ever before. And the console manufacturers clearly know this given how heavily they're trying to bank on load times and things like that for their selling points. They know that the days when you can sell the value of a console on the brute force of visuals is over. Pretty much all games look good now, and improvements are a lot more subtle.
 

Deleted member 4970

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,240
My takeaway from the demo was that it was showing how Nanite could handle the highest quality assets one could use as a proof of concept that the tech works. As if it could compress billions of triangles into tens of millions, then it can probably save you a bunch of time on your game. More like an inspirational demo than a bar setter.

Don't think anyone should actually be expected to create games with art like that and no one probably will, ever.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,041
I mean we always have this issue with tech demos.

But whine culture for lack of3a better term is off the charts these days. So yeah, drama is inevitable.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
I don't get the concern. Games will look like this and probably even better in some areas. The thing is: only the most expensive AAA games will look like this. It should be clear that not every game will look like this. Even this gen many games didn't look as good as the best looking games of last gen. It's all a matter of budget, time and talent.
 

Babadook

self-requsted ban
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
192
That's an interesting point OP. But you've got to remember using Quixel, and artists learning to be fast at placement will make this possible. The workflow is very simple. Also some studios will just put more hours into this with larger teams. Others will use dynamic placement. But I agree there will be many cases where this level of detail is unrealistic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,883
If someone talented with Dreams can do a rough knock off in 2 hours I'm sure devs will find a way to supress it. No doubt procedural content generation will be even more important next gen. No concern here there's some seriously talented devs around.

 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,903
The Netherlands

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,299
The UE5 demo really hit home just how much I prefer stylized visuals to super-realistic ones. I'd much rather play a game that looks like Persona 5 or the new Paper Mario than these kinds of next-gen Tomb Raider/Uncharted visuals. And I get that advances in tech can help non-realistic visuals as well, but I really feel like we're well past the point of diminishing returns here.

What really got me was playing FF7R - there are all these great environment visuals, but I'm just running through them as fast as can be to get to the next story beat or battle. Outside of a tech demo like this UE5 demo, how often are players really paying that close attention to the visual details? And how long will it take before people become used to the higher level of detail and demand even more detail? It feels like a poor use of resources.

I have heard that a lot of this new tech should make certain aspects of development easier & quicker so it'd be nice if instead of going for crazy good visuals, more devs stuck with trying to do current visuals more efficiently & quickly. It'd be nice to get more multiple entries of a series on a single generation like we used to.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
I've been thinking about that too... Are episodic releases probably part of the future of gaming? Would that help developpers alleviate the load?
There should be more AAA experiences like Uncharted Lost Legacy anyway. I must have played that for about 10 hours I think, or 8ish. It was highly enjoyable and didn't outstay it's welcome. I would love studios to start making more games like that rather than these huge open world games that are about 80% busywork that soon gets repetitive.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
I have no problem with 6-7 hour games with that fidelity. Those last gen short and linear games were awesome and I miss them.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
The UE5 demo looks like a normal nextgen step to me.
The environment looks great, but it doesn't feel like real life, mindblowing impossible stuff or something.
It just looks clearly better than current, and it improves scope and textures pop in, as they have the hardware and bandwidth to do it.
So, no. I'm not concerned about the high expectations.
You cannot pull that level of detail off without the technology epic built. now is the tech earth shattering, no. there are various white papers about it, and Carmack talked about it in 2008 as a goal for Id tech 6 before he left id. but it is in fact ground breaking stuff.

And honestly if that was your expectation for next gen anyway, then man you will be disappointed to how 95% of next gen titles will look like.

This is a level of tech that just shifts the way people will author assets and you are like, yeah dude, that was totally what I expected lol.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
I think the same can be said with every round of new game engines and consoles.

I love it!

I love, love photorealistic graphics so this does nothing but excite me!

But in all fairness, I am not a game developer so I don't have to deal with consumer expectations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Expectations are a funny thing. I mean, whenever we get a new landmark title from the best studios in the world, the window shifts a bit -- people do start expecting better animations, or better visuals. In essence, this expectation and the ever-shifting window of game prices has made it possible to stay somewhat in sync with expectations; these days you may 80, or 100 dollars -- all said and done -- for your game, and that's on the lower end of additional costs. Technology moving forward does help developers to meet expectations: in some ways, it is easier than ever to do things with little work that would have taken an insane amount of work in an earlier time with far worse results. We tend to gloss over these things, but as any developer familiar with Unity or UE can attest, it's not all that hard to go down a winding rabbit hole of 'cool' tech you can toss into your game to seemingly increase quality without understanding much of what is going on (and that's, often, by design).

But, turn your attention for a second to the descriptive language used by Epic to refer to a system like Nanite. They aren't being particularly careful with their words, and they're being even direct about reasonable expectations. When you discuss something like micropolygons, one-to-one mappings between a polygon and a pixel, cutting a mesh up through virtualization or streaming in that data through advanced SSDs, that's one thing. But that's not what people are going to hear or focus on: they'll instead focus on "infinite detail." They won't think about advanced tesselation or 8k texture mapping according to distance from a camera, they'll just think "Oh, so you mean I can see million and millions of polygons even if they're far away! Cool!" They're going to misunderstand the technology, and what solutions are actually being offered by Epic to developers here. When you show people ridiculously detailed rocks because those rocks were literally scanned into a computer, cleaned up by AI, and provided to people through an otherwise expensive service, they don't think about how those rocks are low-hanging fruit at the end of the day. Because, you know, we don't have like... alien artifice to just scan in for our completely unique ideas. They just think, oh, shit, look at all that infinite rock detail!

And it's not their fault. They're asked to interpret a demo with language that is difficult for people who know what they're talking about to parse, nevermind a hardcore audience of players who have no idea what an octree is (if it isn't a woody cthuthlu style monster, that is).

So it's natural for new technology to push people into believing that more is achievable. And better engine technology is a necessary condition for better games, but it's not necessary and sufficient for them -- people still make this stuff, and that takes a lot of different forms. If you have some super low poly model for instance, I don't think there's an inherent value to tessellating that thing into micropolygons other than that is how the system works -- because it's not going to produce detail that doesn't exist (assuming it's not expected for that kind of mesh). It's just gonna be an engine that renders stuff according to one paradigm.

These demos always inflate expectations, and when you see the first actual game using the technology, you're not going to get that quality. Hell, Fortnite alone will prove the case of this once Epic converts it over to UE5; it will look better, yes, but that will not be because suddenly there's infinite levels of detail coming in from scanned assets; it will be because the GI solution is better and because LOD will not be noticeable. Other than that? It's gonna be Fortnite. I feel for developers who, right now, see the demo and feel their heart sink, but I am sure that when games start coming out on the thing, the only devs that are going to raise expectations are going to be the same ones who are doing that now on proprietary tech or UE4.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,217
I have higher expectations than what was shown in the demo, just in terms of what the next generation is going to be capable of once we are out of the transition phase. Not that I expect it from every game or anything, but certainly a good number will surpass it in due time.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
5,240
I wouldn't go as far as to say you are concern trolling OP but you definitely need to get out your bubble. Graphics are not the end all be all for the majority of gamers. Nintendo will continue to sell a ton of software even after this demo. Games with cool art styles will continue to sell even if they are not on the bleeding edge of tech( souls games this gen). This raises the bar but ultimately changes nothing.
I'm not sure what your reply has to do with my post. Two of my favorite games from this gen are Kentucky Route Zero and Oxenfree, and technically they don't do much on the graphics department (still gorgeous, though).

My post was about what the God of War Art Director said: making 30+ hour games with the kind of visual fidelity a 10 minute tech demo has is going to be very hard.

And also a note about the almost 500 statues being NPCs from other users: if you add animations, AI, etc, I don't think you could have the same number of actors.
 

PapaJustify

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,085
Germany
I get it, but this also happens every gen.
This. I'm thinking how people were posting the Unreal Engine 4 tech demo in the other thread and came to the conclusion that it didn't even look good anymore compared to the larest of this gen. So it feels like the cycle just begins again and we will see games as impressive or better as this demo a few years in..
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,483
As asset quality, complexity and density goes up, of course the amount of work for devs or designers in creating them, will too, especially art directors like Raf who would be directly responsible for that stuff.

The only solace is that with the more direct nature of development facilitated by these engines (eg not having to worry about multiple LOD's, multiple draw cells, baking light and everything else), there could be other major time saving benefits that somewhat compensate for this.

We've even had devs on Era comment about this regarding the Unreal 5 demo.

Yeah I'm curious how the level creation and iteration of how these million poly 8k texture assets actually works in Unreal 5. They will be difficult to use outside of Unreal 5. If you did it in a Dreams manner lots of instancing a single rock face like in that demo could be used and reused in lots of different places it could be a lot quicker.
 

Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,111
What other game has anything like this?

ZJbiDM.gif

I wish the environments varied more... like if she was moving near-light speed and you saw the mountains but then a second later she was surrounded by a fully detailed lush jungle, and a second later she was in a highly populated busy city with insane detail, then a second later she was in snowy mountains in the middle of a blizzard, then a second later she was in some fully modeled fantasy underworld city, and a second later she was back to the original mountains... just having that much variety would be a lot more impressive.
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
I don't think people will expect levels like the tech-demo. Since, well, it's tech demo. I don't think people will look at environments textures as much.

What I do hope to see and people might expect is a similar level of destruction, and my ultimate wish is an improvement in face animation but alas, as an animation myself, that's.. really fucking hard.

What I think people will need to get used to, both devs and consumers, are new pipelines, new ways of doing things and not only UE5 progressing, but other engines progressing (or ultimately failing)... and this will take time. I don't think people will expect the same graphical level as the tech demo, tbh. The engine isn't releasing until 2021, but when it appears there will need to be a shift in the way studios who work with it use and prioritize their work hours (ahem).
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,981
Yeah I'm curious how the level creation and iteration of how these million poly 8k texture assets actually works in Unreal 5. They will be difficult to use outside of Unreal 5. If you did it in a Dreams manner lots of instancing a single rock face like in that demo could be used and reused in lots of different places it could be a lot quicker.

They are doing that a lot in the demo, and not just in the room full of the same statue. But besides creation, even with a lot of instancing it seems like you'd need a pretty enormous install size to build a big game at this detail, and storage sizes aren't increasing next gen, at least not at launch.
 

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
2,218
If Sony didn't think they'd be able to achieve a similar look,I don't think they'd have allowed Epic to show this on their hardware.
 

Sklaary

Member
Mar 21, 2020
546
I hope after next consoles launched we see a next generation production of games. Mashine learning or what ever can help to reduce crunch and make this UE5 demo quality achievable for everyone. Sony and MS should work on this (together).
 

Akainu

Unshakable Resolve
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,242
Everywhere and nowhere
I certainly don't. Not with this. Not with "but hellblade 2". I really wonder though how many uncharted 4 "realtime/inengine"s and watch dogs will it take for people to learn?
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
I'm not sure what your reply has to do with my post. Two of my favorite games from this gen are Kentucky Route Zero and Oxenfree, and technically they don't do much on the graphics department (still gorgeous, though).

My post was about what the God of War Art Director said: making 30+ hour games with the kind of visual fidelity a 10 minute tech demo has is going to be very hard.

And also a note about the almost 500 statues being NPCs from other users: if you add animations, AI, etc, I don't think you could have the same number of actors.
I just quoted the first I saw but I'm just addressing the premise of the thread as a whole.
 

Deleted member 64666

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 20, 2020
1,051
There should be more AAA experiences like Uncharted Lost Legacy anyway. I must have played that for about 10 hours I think, or 8ish. It was highly enjoyable and didn't outstay it's welcome. I would love studios to start making more games like that rather than these huge open world games that are about 80% busywork that soon gets repetitive.
I agree! I took my time with the game and ended around 15 hours or so, and I loved every minute of it.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
Who is setting these expectations?

The best selling games are rarely the best looking games, so its definitely not the consumer. Are we just talking about reddit and internet forums?
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,990
London
Huh, I thought Nanite was supposed to make stuff easier for devs? Using zbrush models without caring about LOD for example.
 

robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,466
Tech demos (especially for new consoles) have always set unreasonable expectations for people who don't know how things work. You see people citing tech demos as proof of "lazy devs" before everyone else lets them how much of an idiot they are. What makes this time any different?
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,439
I'm more hyped for Decima, or Naughty Dog's PS5 game than I am about UE5. Some of the best looking games aren't on UE4.

The Dark Sorcerer - Detroit Become Human blew me away.
The Casting - Heavy Rain was even better.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
This wasn't to mask loading.

Go and look at this part again. You can see the next area before she gets in and while she's moving thru the crack.

The Epic folks that did the demo already addressed this.

I'm not saying that loading is happening here, but having a common cross-over map area where you can see the destination through loading is a cool trick that's been around for ages.
 

Arkanius

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,144
It's not a new gen if we dont have people falling for UE tech demos believing every game will look like that.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 17184

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Oct 27, 2017
5,240
I just quoted the first I saw but I'm just addressing the premise of the thread as a whole.
Still, me being worried about the pressure people who believe next-gen games are all going to have that tech are putting into devs doesn't mean that my only interest is in graphics. This is exclusively about the pressure. And again, I do know not everyone has that expectation (thankfully), but I can't help but think about all the angry comments in the future, which no one needs.
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,695
First we had people downplaying what next gen titles will look like for months, now there is concern people are expecting too much, lol?
That UE5 tech demo looked gorgeous, and I can see future games using UE5 doing some very awesome stuff. I just wonder about other graphic engines that do not have the Lumen and Nanite technologies. I guess they'll still have to use the same old technologies for their terrain modelling and lighting. They might not be able to create just as detailed games as UE5 can. Maybe that is why the God of War developer chimed in. He maybe knows that the visual quality is either not possible yet on big scale games like the upcoming God of War or that it is not possible with their graphic engine.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,439
It's not a new gen if we dont have people falling for UE tech demos believing every game will look like that.
Who would even think every game would look like Uncharted, or even The Last of Us Remake* and Shadow of the Colossus Remake? People are seeing the potential of games in this demo and games like Uncharted - SOTC remake on PS4. Now imagine Spider-Man being able to swing through the city a lot more faster than the PS4 game now that it doesn't have to limit speed for a HDD, or hitching a ride on Green Goblin's glider in a aerial fight where the background zooming by are recognizable locations and not a pop in in sight.
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,907
I don't see how this is a "concern".
Each and every console generation, on the 3d era specially, always had over inflated graphical demonstrations.

If Sony didn't think they'd be able to achieve a similar look,I don't think they'd have allowed Epic to show this on their hardware.
I wouldn't bet on that horse.
 
May 7, 2020
2,819
I wish the environments varied more... like if she was moving near-light speed and you saw the mountains but then a second later she was surrounded by a fully detailed lush jungle, and a second later she was in a highly populated busy city with insane detail, then a second later she was in snowy mountains in the middle of a blizzard, then a second later she was in some fully modeled fantasy underworld city, and a second later she was back to the original mountains... just having that much variety would be a lot more impressive.
all of that work for a tech demo? lol
they are not selling the ssd
they are selling the engine
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
The bigger story here, and what should be a topic itself, is that the GoW art director is suggesting the tech demo is effectively smoke and mirrors that will be unattainable in "feature length" titles. Sounds like MS's shit show was actually more representative of what to expect.
 

Chamber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
There's a happy medium between people who expect 4K/60/RT/Avatar visuals and people who expect current gen with better textures. The exaggerations on both sides have gotten pretty tiring.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,583
I think the inevitable future of high-end games development is going to be libraries of tweakable high-fidelity assets, which I think is what Epic is figuring with both with this 'Nanite' tech and their acquisition of Quixel. In fact, I think we're already way past the point where creating unique assets from scratch for every game makes sense, and this way of working is only still viable because of the ease of outsourcing (and the downward pressure on game artist wages that this causes).
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,695
The bigger story here, and what should be a topic itself, is that the GoW art director is suggesting the tech demo is effectively smoke and mirrors that will be unattainable in "feature length" titles. Sounds like MS's shit show was actually more representative of what to expect.

I mean the God of War art director is very likely working for some time now on God of War 2 already. Maybe he just knows that level of detail is not possible in that game. The Nanite and Lumen technology are UE5 technologies and the proprietary engine that GoW 2 uses might not have those technologies or similar ones. So GoW2 looking this detailed on a single pixel scale is simply not possible.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
The bigger story here, and what should be a topic itself, is that the GoW art director is suggesting the tech demo is effectively smoke and mirrors that will be unattainable in "feature length" titles. Sounds like MS's shit show was actually more representative of what to expect.
Its def not smoke and mirrors, and I dont see him stating that. he is saying to not expect this stuff in your games for a while since populating game worlds with the detail seen here is very hard. Especially when you dont want to use photogrammetry libraries since those libraries only cover real life items and trying to match that quality with assets that have to be build from the ground up is very work intensive, even when you dont have to make LOD's.

95% of upcoming nextgen titles will not look like that until far later in the generation. This is a look into the future how games can look with this tech and for now its exclusive to epic, and UE5. (and I say "can look" not because its technically smoke and mirrors, but the fact that creating full games with this detail is incredibly expensive, both in money and in time until the industry catches up and finds better ways to create and populate game worlds with this level of detail.)

Also I can for sure tell you that the tech was on the horizon, but nobody believed any commercial engine would go there this soon.

Don't expect this tech to be in any other engine any time soon.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,678
keep in mind unreal engine is not just for games

the photorealistic stuff has more applications in other industries. they don't just have to build open worlds with it

next-gen games will look like that. maybe not something like elder scrolls 6, but some car racing game or corridor shooter should be doable