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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
I'd argue that Twitter and YouTube are infinitely more effective than review bombing. And...actually ethical.
The main issue here is what is a "review bomb" exactly?

...because in almost every single case you can find, it could very easily be just an organic release of negative reviews that found momentum due to a current issue being prevalent and resonating. It might not even be a concerted, centralized effort.

In which case, how is it inherently unethical for a person to leave their feedback with intent to have an effect on a score? That's what reviews are inherently for.

When it is a matter of people encouraging others to do so... was it unethical for users to encourage each other to leave a thumbs down on Steam for Arkham Knight when it released in such a broken state?
 
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giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,596
Review bombing is one of the most juvenile and immature way of expressing disapproval on the internet. It's embarrassing.
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,876
USA
The main issue here is what is a "review bomb" exactly?

...because in almost every single case you can find, it could very easily be just an organic release of negative reviews that found momentum due to a current issue being prevalent and resonating. It might not even be a concerted, centralized effort.

In which case, how is it inherently unethical for a person to leave their feedback with intent to have an effect on a score? That's what reviews are inherently for.
Basically bombing is when a particular niche of a game's audience with a negative perception of the game becomes overrepresented in the scores, reducing the signal to noise ratio -- in theory an ideal score should have a random sample of every possible audience that would interact with the game. This is obviously impossible period. Bombing is basically the tag for when the weighting is negative and really obviously off. That doesn't mean the problems with the user score concept it reveals aren't always present anyway. By default the may be overweighted positively, but we don't care really because it's at least pro-social and nice.
 

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,110
Review bombing is one of the most juvenile and immature way of expressing disapproval on the internet. It's embarrassing.
and completely pointless. no one pays attention to them in any serious manner beyond the people taking their gamer lifestyle a bit too seriously or a brand manager may go "oh look at that, someone contact our connect at the site to get that adjusted and cleaned up". The best dumb reviews also get passed around as a joke in slack channels.
 
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SchroDingerzat

SchroDingerzat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,600
95 percent of the time it's childish gamers throwing a hissy fit that a game is not exactly to their liking or people engaging fanboy warring.

The few times it's "justified" does not make up for review bombing overwhelmingly being used by people just being absolute assholes.

People keep throwing around 95% 99.99% like it actually has data to back it up. Quite a few have posted examples of games were groups of people giving bad reviews at once had good reason behind them.

Examples like ACNH and Warcraft 3 Reforged had legitimate concerns.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
There's no excuse for review bombing. It's often a toxic, unethical act and people should stop doing it.
 

waugh

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Feb 21, 2020
1,401
it's another reason why opencritic is superior to metacritic. no user scores.

Now we just need an aggregate site that eschews review scores all together. Instead opting for a recommend/not-recommended percentage system. Trying to condense an opinion into a number is already a fools errand and then aggregating those numbers is even sillier.

That fact that people will defend and make threads about these scores is a serious problem with this industry.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
Pencils Vania
People keep throwing around 95% 99.99% like it actually has data to back it up. Quite a few have posted examples of games were groups of people giving bad reviews at once had good reason behind them.

Examples like ACNH and Warcraft 3 Reforged had legitimate concerns.
Of course it's not based on data I'm just throwing out a number.

I don't need to gather data to know that review bombing is fucking childish.
 
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SchroDingerzat

SchroDingerzat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,600
There's no excuse for review bombing. It's often a toxic, unethical act and people should stop doing it.

I would say some people in this thread have given good reasons for when it is justified. Why do you personally think it isn't? Do you think when people have legitimate concerns for a game they should be quiet?

Of course it's not based and data I'm just throwing out a number.

I don't need to gather data to know that review bombing is fucking childish.

So how should those who bought the game voice problems? Like in the case of the two games I mentioned previously?
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
Now we just need an aggregate site that eschews review scores all together. Instead opting for a recommend/not-recommended percentage system. Trying to condense an opinion into a number is already a fools errand and then aggregating those numbers is even sillier.

That fact that people will defend and make threads about these scores is a serious problem with this industry.
agreed. i think the scores are becoming a big problem in this industry, and too much importance is placed on them. right now we have devs that will sacrifice the life quality of their employees just because they think their game not reaching some specific number on metacritic would be catastrophic, and that's just ridiculous. the film/tv/music industries don't really have this problem to this degree. yeah they still care about not getting bombed in the reviews and getting good critics, but this degree of pandering to specific sensibilities of gamers and reviewers just for that number, that should end and i think when that happens the industry will mature and move forward in a big way.
 
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SchroDingerzat

SchroDingerzat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,600
Game's official forum
Game's official social media accounts
(amongst other locations)

You know, the places where Community Managers monitor for feedback on their games.

Not all of those games have forums and at times social is ignored. In the case of ACNH people have bought games and now feel they are losing out, so leaving a bad review is a way to voice their concerns. In the case of Warcraft 3 Reforged, the website advertised features (even after release) that were never going to be in the game, these bad reviews are justified by those who had spent money. I see nothing wrong with doing that.

Social media exists.

Which also is derided by people at times.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,782
it's the most powerful tool consumers have to protect themselves against scummy anti-consumer methods. most people don't read social media or forums and I am not even mentioning official feedback channels where complaints land on a pile no one ever sees. a bad steam review and metacritic score is there to stay and it hurts.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
People keep throwing around 95% 99.99% like it actually has data to back it up. Quite a few have posted examples of games were groups of people giving bad reviews at once had good reason behind them.

Examples like ACNH and Warcraft 3 Reforged had legitimate concerns.
I think the main issue here is we have seen a large amount of review bombs from niche groups tanking scores for shitty reasons and there is a very obvious reason people are upset at the very mention of the term.

I also think your OP wasn't very well researched or presented. Had you, perhaps, taken a deep-dive into examples you'd consider justified and made a case for enough to show that the phenomenon can be a valid symptom of anti-consumer practise and consumer frustration etc... then, maybe, people would have been more open to the debate.

As it stands, we see a LOT of entitled bullshit online. We have seen some prominent examples of review bombs being used by shitty people. We also see examples of niche groups with legit concerns take to reviews to tank score over a single issue. There are also cases like AK where people were naturally leaving negative reviews due to the poor product... but that the community was actively rallying each other to get involved... people who wouldn't have left a review normally, but do so because they have been convinced to use their voice to make an impact. And examples like this will muddy the water on what a "review bomb" actually is.

There is a conversation to be had here, but I think the "ethics of review bombing" in general is probably not the way to frame it. Instead, it would be to look how it can be symptomatic of other issues, and to ask "in these specific cases, is this justified?".
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,876
USA
Even recommended vs not recommended ends up missing the point I think. It can just be too nuanced for that. Someone can write a really critical review, not recommending the game, but through synthesising their unique perspective and the actual words they write, along with your own differing perspective and preferences, you might find out that you really want to play it and see for yourself! NONE of that comes through from a simple thumbs up/ thumbs down metric. I agree it's better than the false precision of a score though.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Review bombs are bad. Bad reviews from journos and public are enough to warn customers.

Unless somehow both the latter fail, which is unlikely.
Reviewers can be ignorant or not care about some subjects that are or can be a big deal to a lot of people (see: Persona 5 getting gushing reviews despite its issues with homophobia, misogyny, and pedo bait)
 
Oct 29, 2017
909
it's the most powerful tool consumers have to protect themselves against scummy anti-consumer methods. most people don't read social media or forums and I am not even mentioning official feedback channels where complaints land on a pile no one ever sees. a bad steam review and metacritic score is there to stay and it hurts.
^This. Most companies don't even respond on social media and in the event that they even have community forums at all, the moderation is biased and usually deletes any negative threads that pop up about serious issues. How else are people supposed to have their voices heard?
 
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SchroDingerzat

SchroDingerzat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,600
I think the main issue here is we have seen a large amount of review bombs from niche groups tanking scores for shitty reasons and there is a very obvious reason people are upset at the very mention of the term.

I also think your OP wasn't very well researched or presented. Had you, perhaps, taken a deep-dive into examples you'd consider justified and made a case for enough to show that the phenomenon can be a valid symptom of anti-consumer practise and consumer frustration etc... then, maybe, people would have been more open to the debate.

As it stands, we see a LOT of entitled bullshit online. We have seen some prominent examples of review bombs being used by shitty people. We also see examples of niche groups with legit concerns take to reviews to tank score over a single issue. There are also cases like AK where people were naturally leaving negative reviews due to the poor product... but that the community was actively rallying each other to get involved... people who wouldn't have left a review normally, but do so because they have been convinced to use their voice to make an impact. And examples like this will muddy the water on what a "review bomb" actually is.

There is a conversation to be had here, but I think the "ethics of review bombing" in general is probably not the way to frame it. Instead, it would be to look how it can be symptomatic of other issues, and to ask "in these specific cases, is this justified?".

Then I have to apologize for the bad state of my original post. I should have identified the types of review bombing and clarified what I mean by review bombing, as well as identifying the reasons for the actions in more detail. I will make a better effort to research my points in the future.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
Almost every gaming company has a social media presence. It's a tool to use.
Game's official forum
Game's official social media accounts
(amongst other locations)

You know, the places where Community Managers monitor for feedback on their games.

I have been an active part of many communities over the years. It's not uncommon to find a game with an issue that only affects a small percentage of the player base that is seemingly being ignored despite consistent feedback.

In situations like these, where a consumer feels impotent after attempting to utilize the proper channels for communication, if they then decide to leave a negative review based on their experience is that unethical?

Would it be unethical if all the affected users got together and decided to do it as a joint effort?
 

sinny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,421
Game's official forum
Game's official social media accounts
(amongst other locations)

You know, the places where Community Managers monitor for feedback on their games.

If those are the places, based on my experience then Review Bombing is 100% neccesary.

and i think Review Bombing is stupid. But the official means to get in touch with the devs never work.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,516
My personal opinion is that review bombs are a necessary evil, as at times they are warranted (especially in the gameplay aspect, as it also warns potential customers about the game). It provides the public a means to voice there concern or valid critique at the creators. Otherwise people will just bombard the twitter accounts of the creators more then they already do.
I cannot think of a single example where a game was review bombed instead of, rather than in addition to, personal harassment lobbed at the game's creators.

Not one single time.

Review bombs are defined by the fact that they are self-centered acts of malice.

Simply giving a game a negative user review because the game is malfunctioning or unfun is not review bombing.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
I cannot think of a single example where a game was review bombed instead of, rather than in addition to, personal harassment lobbed at the game's creators.

Not one single time.

Review bombs are defined by the fact that they are self-centered acts of malice.

Simply giving a game a negative user review because the game is malfunctioning or unfun is not review bombing.
What about the review bombs against the Skyrim paid mod issue?

They had nothing to do with the game's overal quality. It was people using a negative review to draw attention to a specific anti-consumer issue.

Was that a self centred act of malice?
 

EscoBlades

Banned
May 31, 2019
73
Toronto
If those are the places, based on my experience then Review Bombing is 100% neccesary.

and i think Review Bombing is stupid. But the official means to get in touch with the devs never work.

Devs are not using user reviews that are a part of a review bombing brigade as an avenue for any constructive feedback.

I don't know what else to tell you in that regard.
 

Linde

Banned
Sep 2, 2018
3,983
just because developers arent personally replying to your email or message doesn't mean they're not paying attention. And it isnt an excuse for review bombing
review bombing is malicious and shouldnt be done. The game objectively isn't a 0 because there is an element in it that gets on your nerves.
 

LuigiMario

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,937
Pretty sure in the case of Warcraft 3 it led to them loosening their refund policy. So yes that was a good change.



I would still consider a 0.6 for warcraft 3 a review bombing.
People keep throwing around 95% 99.99% like it actually has data to back it up. Quite a few have posted examples of games were groups of people giving bad reviews at once had good reason behind them.

Examples like ACNH and Warcraft 3 Reforged had legitimate concerns.


warcraft 3 reforged had criticism coming from professional critics and warnings to not purchase were well documented all over games media. To say review Bombing caused that is pretty disingenuous, IMO moreso than tying a percentage to "the overwhelming majority"
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,555
Still disagreeing with valve stance on making DRM as part of what their anti review bombing target.

And there is 0 doubt about the fact they acted because publisher cared, and publisher cared because it had effect on the only thing their care, money.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,516
What about the review bombs against the Skyrim paid mod issue?

They had nothing to do with the game's overal quality. It was people using a negative review to draw attention to a specific anti-consumer issue.

Was that a self centred act of malice?
Was it a coordinated abuse of user reviews to throw an anonymous, unconstructive public tantrum?

Then yes.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
Was it a coordinated abuse of user reviews to throw an anonymous, unconstructive public tantrum?

Then yes.

That's a very dismissive way to frame it that ignores all the underlying issues.
Devs are not using user reviews that are a part of a review bombing brigade as an avenue for any constructive feedback.

I don't know what else to tell you in that regard.
If a company does something anti-consumer, and a core group of gaming enthusiasts leave negative reviews to highlight this and bring attention to it... what would your opinion on that specific instance be?
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,516
That's a very dismissive way to frame it that ignores all the underlying issues.
Perhaps if there was even a shred of evidence that the review bombing resulted in a positive change, where feedback via official channels did not, then maybe it wouldn't be such an easy argument to dismiss.
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
2,264
sometimes devs are just assholes that do things after the reviews have dropped.
i fully support review bombing in these instances.
the devs or the publisher deserve it.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
Perhaps if there was even a shred of evidence that the review bombing resulted in a positive change, where feedback via official channels did not, then maybe it wouldn't be such an easy argument to dismiss.
But you don't seem to be using any evidence to back up your argument to the contrary?

Didn't the review bombing regarding the Skyrim paid mods result in Valve backtracking, at least in part? Wasn't that a pro-consumer/community outcome?

And, as I reasoned, I believe the AK example fits the definition of review bombing and directly led to a positive outcome.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,516
Didn't the review bombing regarding the Skyrim paid mods result in Valve backtracking, at least in part?
This is the unanswered question at the root of this twisted 'ethics' discussion. Meanwhile:

www.vg247.com

Paid mods creator received "death threats, attacks and hateful comments"

Paid mods may have proved a bit of a PR nightmare for Valve and Bethesda, but even the creators involved in the scheme …

Yeah fuck this behavior. I'd rather have zero games than a world where psychopaths control the narrative where they're the ones making games better for consumers.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
This is the unanswered question at the root of this twisted 'ethics' discussion. Meanwhile:

www.vg247.com

Paid mods creator received "death threats, attacks and hateful comments"

Paid mods may have proved a bit of a PR nightmare for Valve and Bethesda, but even the creators involved in the scheme …

Yeah fuck this behavior. I'd rather have zero games than a world where psychopaths control the narrative where they're the ones making games better for consumers.
Yes, those people sending those kinds of responses are clearly awful?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
And the people review bombing can't pretend they don't contribute to this. "Yeah death threats are bad and stuff but the creators should probably do what they ask for anyway," is gamergate terrorism 101.
The people review bombing against anti-consumer practise were not responsible for the shitlords who did that, no.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
They also aren't doing anything good and it boggles my mind that they believe otherwise.
They were protesting ant-consumer practise which is a good thing in itself. The fact you're ignoring how often consumers are ignored and exploited and how their frustrations at how often the official modes of communication can breakdown or be ineffective is mind-boggling, too.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,446
This is the unanswered question at the root of this twisted 'ethics' discussion. Meanwhile:

www.vg247.com

Paid mods creator received "death threats, attacks and hateful comments"

Paid mods may have proved a bit of a PR nightmare for Valve and Bethesda, but even the creators involved in the scheme …

Yeah fuck this behavior. I'd rather have zero games than a world where psychopaths control the narrative where they're the ones making games better for consumers.

Thing is, this type of harassment isn't happening on the steam review pages. Those messages are being sent through social media, email, forums, and other official channels that people are suggesting are the "proper outlets".
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,516
They were protesting ant-consumer practise which is a good thing in itself. The fact you're ignoring how often consumers are ignored and exploited and how their frustrations at how often the official modes of communication can breakdown or be ineffective is mind-boggling, too.
Thing is, this type of harassment isn't happening on the steam review pages. Those messages are being sent through social media, email, forums, and other official channels that people are suggesting are the "proper outlets".
of course protesting anti-consumer methods is good, that you are now trying to compare this to death threats speaks volumes about you. doesn't seem so easy to dismiss after all.
The death threats are brought up in response to the "But what if review bombing did do something good, like the time paid mods were removed from Skyrim?"

No, the review bombing did not result in the withdrawal of paid mods. The death threats and fear for the safety of the creators is what caused the withdrawal.

That's the point. The review bombing did nothing but create a toxic atmosphere and give a surprising lifespan to the false notion otherwise.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,373
Review bombing is the most pathetic and immature thing, it literally does nothing but embarrass everyone involved for being such children
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,947
The death threats are brought up in response to the "But what if review bombing did do something good, like the time paid mods were removed from Skyrim?"

No, the review bombing did not result in the withdrawal of paid mods. The death threats and fear for the safety of the creators is what caused the withdrawal.

That's the point. The review bombing did nothing but create a toxic atmosphere and give a surprising lifespan to the false notion otherwise.
Can you actually back that up with anything though? If you can, please do?