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the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,261
To be fair Epic is looking out for the little guy. That happens to be indie developers, not consumers in this case.

But the OP makes it pretty clear that they're not. Their proposed business model at best trades off storefront fees with "influencer" fees, and I don't see how that ends up as a net benefit for the overwhelming majority of indie games, especially compared to being able to generate keys for free and shop them around to different storefronts or sell them yourselves. It benefits established devs whose games can attract views and I guess devs who make very streaming-friendly games. It doesn't seem particularly beneficial to the average indie.

Edit: And this is taking them at their word that they will dramatically open up the site in the near future. Right now the average indie can't get on the store.

He mentioned now-defunct ag.ru as an example of a site that implemented a solution to prevent this stuff, but he didn't quite like their's model so he said they'll are currently working on a system.

Did that site deal with anything resembling the traffic and level of scrutiny that Steam does? A sure-proof way of avoiding review-bombing is just to not attract much attention.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
Does he really think 65-75% of Steam is asset flips and malicious devs? How the hell does he get to the 150-200 games a month number? Weren't their close to 10,000 games released in 2018?

8000 in 2017
https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/10/16873446/steam-release-dates-2017

That'd be 8000/12= 666 per month.
So according to Sergey, 150-200 "real" games and 460-510 "fake" games per month.

I think he's overestimating the number of "fake" games indeed.
 

NoTime

Member
Oct 30, 2017
250
Did that site deal with anything resembling the traffic and level of scrutiny that Steam does? A sure-proof way of avoiding review-bombing is just to not attract much attention.
It was a prominent site from the early 00s to mid-10s, based around reviews and user-generated content. Relatively recent data shows 2mill MAU, but It's hard to find earlier stats.
 

Deleted member 28523

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,911
8000 in 2017
https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/10/16873446/steam-release-dates-2017

That'd be 8000/12= 666 per month.
So according to Sergey, 150-200 "real" games and 460-510 "fake" games per month.

I think he's overestimating the number of "fake" games indeed.

I thought I remembered seeing 10k games for 2018 but I can't find where I read that. It's probably close to that given it increases year on year. But yeah I think he's overestimating. And contrary to popular belief Valve does remove and deny games so the number is probably higher there as well. I think Valve focusing on good and bad faith developers is better then focusing on quality of games. I think the first one is healthier.

I asked him on twitter how he got to the 150-200 number. He reads this thread and says he'll answer questions on twitter. I'm very interested on the reasoning.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
I thought I remembered seeing 10k games for 2018 but I can't find where I read that. It's probably close to that given it increases year on year. But yeah I think he's overestimating. And contrary to popular belief Valve does remove and deny games so the number is probably higher there as well. I think Valve focusing on good and bad faith developers is better then focusing on quality of games. I think the first one is healthier.

I asked him on twitter how he got to the 150-200 number. He reads this thread and says he'll answer questions on twitter. I'm very interested on the reasoning.

I got this chart but no source. (someone had posted it in the Steam OT)
e4b93ac6dd55f515.PNG
 
Galyonkin's clarifications and my response
OP
OP
.exe

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Okay, so as you may have seen, Galyonkin decided to address some of the points I made in the thread. For posterity, I'd like to include some of the new information he gave about the Epic Games Store and pin it as a threadmark. Firstly, the call out, however.



@galyonkin "There is a thread on ResetEra where people are getting angry because of an incorrect summary of a Russian-language podcast.
Because most of Internet doesn't speak Russian, I guess I need to address it here, instead of hoping people will actually listen to the podcast."


So, having now read the entire tweet chain, he does not actually end up disputing anything that I put in the OP. In fact, he basically reinforced the accuracy of the translation. The entire tweet chain is quite interesting, so I would encourage anyone interested in the EGS to read it. Now that that's cleared up, here are some new insights or otherwise interesting details on the EGS we did get out of this all:

@galyonkin "Our goal is to empower smaller devs to have the same access to creators that only big publishers right now can afford. It's not in any way mandatory, we're just leveling the playing field, giving devs the tools."

@galyonkin "On the other hand, it also levels the playing field for mid-sized and small creators. We found that ROI on small and mid-sized creators is actually better when running promotional campaigns, but there are so many of them, most devs can't manage that. We'll give them the tools."

@galyonkin "We will have both: a ticketing systems with some kind of knowledge base based on answered tickets and user reviews. Again, devs aren't obliged to use either of these systems, we just want to give them the tools to be able to serve their customers better."

@Imbaskito replying to @galyonkin "Tickets provide an answer by the publisher/developer, but what about users helping other users with temporary solutions, workarounds or even mods that fix the issues until an official solution is implemented? I think a forum dedicated to technical support only would be better."

@galyonkin replying to @Imbaskito "You can if an answered ticket becomes a part of a searchable knowledge base."

He did talk about a knowledge base in the podcast, but I got the impression this was on the developer's side of things, i.e. a knowledge base for their backend, like on Steam. In any case, he did not make that big a point of it and I found it too vague to reproduce in a translation without potentially inserting my own interpretation rather than the intended message.

@galyonkin "Same for discovery features. Right now we only have a single store homepage. Eventually we plan on having categories, collections, developers pages, top-selling and trending games, most followed games, recommended by your friends (based on reviews) and so on. Oh, and the search )"

The bolded is all-new information, the rest we knew already.

@galyonkin "An infuencer can't demand anything in this system. The dev sets the share and it's for everyone. They can't set it on a per-influencer basis."

Now we know that it's one influencer rate for all -- 20% for your Ninjas of the world as well as someone with a more humble following. There is no granularity. Whether that's a good thing is for you to decide.

@nett00n "Will ot be something like steam family sharing in epic store?"

@galyonkin replying to @nett00n "We haven't decided yet."

@DragnixMod "But giving these cuts, won't this lead to universally more positive coverage then in the past considering that it's so directly tied? That's what concerns me about this, and will there be proper teaching about disclosure?"

@galyonkin replying to @DragnixMod "I don't think so. If an influencer gets paid no matter what game he/she streams, it shouldn't affect their judgment."

That's all that I personally found worth highlighting.
 
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Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
Considering his knowledge with Steam Spy he's being wilfully ignorant now and is absolutely spreading misinformation

He's been very shady in his comparisons - noticeably so for the past year or so that he is getting called out on it. I kind of feel that if that is the path he really wants to take, he could at least do so in a more believably way by presenting more feasible arguments - which plenty can be made
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
3,910
I don't think Fortnite players are this special breed of gamers who don't know what Steam is and at the same time are willing to buy any game featured in the EGS just because "they have a better approach to discoverability" compared to Steam's algorythm, because it doesn't make any sense.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I am really curious if EGS will actually get 45 million active users within 5 years, spending as much as they are spending now on Steam. Epic isn't giving us any reason to use their store instead of Steam so far. On the contrary: the lack of big sales events and cheaper keys from keystores will keep people from leaving Steam.

Besides that, I also wonder how many pc gamers will keep visiting their store when the fortnite hype is over. Epic can't keep moneyhatting devs for exclusivity forever.

I am curious which console exclusives Epic will bring to pc tho. But even this strategy won't last. Microsoft will use exclusives to promote their own store, and Sony probably won't sell their top games.
 

Deleted member 5864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,725
I don't think Fortnite players are this special breed of gamers who don't know what Steam is and at the same team are willing to buy any game featured in the EGS just because "they have a better approach to discoverability" compared to Steam's algorythm, because it doesn't make any sense.
The majority of them just lean very young. It makes sense to try and build up different expectations for what a store is when you tap into the market on the ground floor and use the direct link they have with influencers to manage those expectations and opinions. Not that long ago, game publishers were trying very hard to convince us that the exploitative models used by mobile moving into full price games were also for our sole benefit. It's just that we in our 20s were just very old and didn't understand the things that a new generation who grew up knowing nothing but phones and tablets since they were 3 did. These things being of course, being trained to tap tap tap anything flashy that made a sound on screen, and the innate inability to comprehend how much that USD$250 "best value" pack actually sucked, because how could it suck when all it did was instantly improve my game experience balanced around me tapping it several times to make any real progress and tear down their artificially designed walls.

Similarly enough, creating a new store where the standard are things like completely shielding developers from the burden of public opinion, or responsibility for technical issues, or complete lack of options from where to compare pricing and acquire your games, or the commercial aspect that contains a direct link between the influencers you look up to and the games they are paid to recommend to you, goes better with an audience who has no other frame of reference.
 
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Parenegade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
You're right. I don't care about how much money devs are making. I'm thinking of myself first. I want my cheaper prices, my features, my great working ecosystem.
And you know what ? This is far more sane than the opposite. Devs aren't my friends. They aren't my family. They are a business. A small business, but still a business. This is no charity.

I didn't say they were. I'm just stating the reality of the situation.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,304
I didn't say they were. I'm just stating the reality of the situation.

It is indeed the reality. There's a reason why people wants Steam. It's not some kind of brand loyalty or fetish. I'm a huge Steam user and guess what: I don't care about Valve's games. In fact, if Valve could stop making games (for real) to focus 100% on Steam, I'd be glad. Because it brings more to the table.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Why do I want to wait 2024 for them to match Steam in 2019 ?
You're basically telling us: "Give them a chance, they might improve to the level of the better alternative today in a few years".


To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.
I dont expect them to have the same tool set as Steam does now. I just expect them to do better than Origin at launch. They arent doing it.
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
The majority of them just lean very young. It makes sense to try and build up different expectations for what a store is when you tap into the market on the ground floor and use the direct link they have with influencers to manage those expectations and opinions. Not that long ago, game publishers were trying very hard to convince us that the exploitative models used by mobile moving into full price games were also for our sole benefit. It's just that we in our 20s were just very old and didn't understand the things that a new generation who grew up knowing nothing but phones and tablets since they were 3 did.

Similarly enough, creating a new store where the standard are things like completely shielding developers from the burden of public opinion or responsibility for technical issues or complete lack of options from where to compare pricing and acquire your games or the commercial aspect contains a direct link between the influencers you look up to and the games they are paid to recommend to you goes better with an audience who has no other frame of reference.


Exactly and it's done over and over with each generation. My youngest brother doesn't buy games based on reviews and ever since he was super young YouTube is where he goes for help. He tends to buy games based on friends who base on streamers.

They aren't even affected by traditional advertising because they consume differently.

I think that's why Epic is prioritizing the way the are features wise. The biggest issue is their core market isn't quite old enough to have cash flow that isn't at least monitored, but this lays the groundwork for setting expectations as soon they will be the biggest potential market to capture.

Same reason why credit card companies love visiting college campuses, huge untapped market that doesn't have any set loyalties or expectations yet.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,151
Indonesia
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.
We don't really have a choice if we want to play exclusive games on Epic Store, don't we? Can you see the issue now?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,304
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.

No, it's only unrealistic in the gaming industry, where we lowered our expectations so low that it's unbelievable. This industry is close to being as much of a joke as the phone service providers in USA, such as AT&T or Verizon.

When someone tells me it's unrealistic in 2019 to expect on PC to have a search feature, or language supported by the game on the store page being a mandate, I can only laugh.
I'm not even touching features that I consider that should be mandatory on PC in 2019, such as library sharing, streaming nor controller support.

No, as I said, it's only unrealistic in the gaming industry to expect competitors to match the current offering.
Any other industry expect competitors to exceed each others. Not in gaming.

I know what you're going to tell me: "You cant compare the smartphone industry it's orange and apples"
It's the same for any service btw. If a Netflix competitor released and didn't support HD videos nor streaming, people would laugh.
Not in gaming though.


Exactly and it's done over and over with each generation. My youngest brother doesn't buy games based on reviews and ever since he was super young YouTube is where he goes for help. He tends to buy games based on friends who base on streamers.

They aren't even affected by traditional advertising because they consume differently.

I think that's why Epic is prioritizing the way the are features wise. The biggest issue is their core market isn't quite old enough to have cash flow that isn't at least monitored, but this lays the groundwork for setting expectations as soon they will be the biggest potential market to capture.

Same reason why credit card companies love visiting college campuses, huge untapped market that doesn't have any set loyalties or expectations yet.


I'd agree with the "aiming for a new market approach" if they only shopped for titles such as Hello Neighbour. They're not though. Heck, some of their new gets aren't even games you can stream.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.

Yet the epicstore can't even match Steam 2008.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
To summarise the assumptions being made that seem to be dictating decisions behind the Epic Store:

1) "Influencers are one of the main game discovery engines in the industry right now. In-store discovery while important is nowhere as important as those two."

For the kind of small indie game that Epic Store is promoting itself to, the exact opposite is true: one of the biggest reasons indie devs are looking forward to the Epic Store is "the October bug" where something (a bug? a deliberate change?) lead to a reduction of in-store discovery within Steam. This is blamed for a corresponding reduction of sales. We've already gone through why the reliance on influencers for curation isn't a great idea elsewhere for the thread, but it should be noted said influencers are all focused on big games and games that already gained traction elsewhere.

2) "A forum discussion is often a war of attrition - the last person still posting wins. Reddit upvotes and Quora/Twitter likes allow everyone to voice their opinions without writing lengthy texts."

Any regular user of Reddit or Twitter will probably find this statement hilarious in how obviously incorrect it is. In particular, Reddit upvotes serve little more than to bury dissenting voices. Reddit and Twitter are also dreadful for archiving useful information. While I do understand that the Steam forums do not have the best reputation, it is an excellent archive for solutions to technical issues. Now, Sergey did say that they are planning to make support tickets into a searchable database, but I'm not sure how successful it will be without community involvement. In the case the community does get involved, I have no idea how Epic or the developer will prevent it devolving into a dollar-store subreddit. In short, I have no idea what the logic behind this decision is.

3) Reviews when they're done right are important to consumers making purchase decisions. The thing is it only works if reviews are indicative of the product's quality and not a way to get tech support."

Sorry folks, buggy games are reflective of the product's quality (see: Fallout 76 for an extreme example). Not addressed in the Twitter thread is the proposed solutions to review bombing (which boils down to either making it difficult to post a review, or to delete negative reviews, neither of which is particularly desirable).

4) The assumption that "game-shape objects exist primarily due to Steam trading cards", which I've addressed in my previous post. tl;dr, no longer true, said objects have now moved onto making extra cheap titty games, and it's going to be interesting to see how they handle these vs the inevitable submission of the Neptunia franchise.

5) "Once you remove malicious devs and asset-flips you'll have maybe 150-200 new games per month to go through."

As Heckor already addressed, unless you make some very unreasonable assumptions about the quantity of "malicious devs and asset flips" that Valve lets through, this seems like a crazy under-estimate. And even if the estimate does turn out to be accurate, that's still more than enough to completely flood the store. I don't think any developer would describe a store that accepts 150-200 new games a month as "curated". Relying on an editorial team to decide what gets promoted will almost certainly result in an iOS-esque situation where getting approval for said editorial team is seen as a pre-requisite for success.

In summary: I think the assumptions are at best fundamentally flawed, and at worst disasteriously incorrect, and I do think they're going to severely impare the success of the store. I hope they don't take down many developers with them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.

They have almost no features at all. As I mentioned before, perhaps they would have benefited more by delaying their storefront and putting some of the money they're throwing to devs for exclusivity to develop those features first? For a project that has been years in the making, it barely shows. Almost feels like the hurried business deal Sweeney cut to try and capitalize on the whole thing with Unity just days ago - pasted together as quickly as possible for immediate gains.
 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,792
To repeat what I said earlier, it's unrealistic to have expected they'd match all Steam features at launch, and at least its clear there is a plan to improve their services.

I don't really care if you wait or not, to be honest. It's your choice.

Dude the thing isn't even matching bloody UPlay come on.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Except my point is how many ways they are not in fact looking out for the little guys. Yet people like you who openly declare have no real interest in the space continue to assume they are.

I'm interested in the topic and I concluded I'm not interested in their approach.


The little guys devs are the indie devs that would be left out of the store due to curation. Ala 2010 Steam.

So how does that help the little indie devs?

Team Meat is not a 'little' guy.

They do certain things that are contradictory such as using SMB as an exclusive while stating they only want new games going forward from small devs but I'll consider SMB as a very callous move to attract attention.

But if you look at their overall stated strategy it's clear they prioritize game developers big and small.

They intend to limit how reviews are posted which benefits small devs way more than big devs. They intend to give small devs a tool to interact with influencers like big devs already do. Even if there are limits it is something instead of nothing. Their whole attitude is a big embrace of developers in general and finger wagging at customers.

As someone who had to help run ops for multiple businesses on private sites, ebay and amazon there are huge tells in Epics attitude that tells me I would be interested in their platform as a seller but buyers will feel disempowered compared to Amazon let alone ebay which skewed too much in favor of buyers.
 

Deleted member 5864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,725
Same reason why credit card companies love visiting college campuses, huge untapped market that doesn't have any set loyalties or expectations yet.
Amex sure got me with their whole promise of traveling incentives and "flashing golden card" status. Almost a decade later I was so happy when I finally got out of their claws (I will admit many financial management mistakes on my part of course). At least they gifted me a decent bottle of wine when I paid off and closed my account, just at the age when I could finally appreciate wine too.

Not in gaming though.
I feel that in the console space, if say Samsung came out with a streaming hardware option, moneyhatted exclusives, and lacked basic functionality the big 3 have, it would be completely laughed off the market and not seen as the "competition is good" blanket opinion that's so prevalent in the PC space for some reason...
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,304
I'm interested in the topic and I concluded I'm not interested in their approach.




They do certain things that are contradictory such as using SMB as an exclusive while stating they only want new games going forward from small devs but I'll consider SMB as a very callous move to attract attention.

But if you look at their overall stated strategy it's clear they prioritize game developers big and small.

They intend to limit how reviews are posted which benefits small devs way more than big devs. They intend to give small devs a tool to interact with influencers like big devs already do. Even if there are limits it is something instead of nothing. Their whole attitude is a big embrace of developers in general and finger wagging at customers.

As someone who had to help run ops for multiple businesses on private sites, ebay and amazon there are huge tells in Epics attitude that tells me I would be interested in their platform as a seller but buyers will feel disempowered compared to Amazon let alone ebay which skewed too much in favor of buyers.


Positive reviews impact small devs in a good way. Just look at Rimworld.


I feel that in the console space, if say Samsung came out with a streaming hardware option, moneyhatted exclusives, and lacked basic functionality the big 3 have, it would be completely laughed off the market and not seen as the "competition is good" blanket option that's so prevalent in the PC space for some reason...


Oh, even more simple. When Valve bought Campo Santos, if they announced that Firewatch would be removed from PS4/One stores, the Switch version consoles and Valley of the Gods would only be coming on PC and console versions cancelled, all these people saying "It's good for competition, maybe Valve will make games again" would be rightfully upset.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,674
USA USA USA
yeah the new car company released vehicles without windshield wipers and headlights but come on they're new at this they might get better in the future

it's unfair to compare them to all the other car company's because they've had so many more years to refine
 

NoTime

Member
Oct 30, 2017
250
Exactly and it's done over and over with each generation. My youngest brother doesn't buy games based on reviews and ever since he was super young YouTube is where he goes for help. He tends to buy games based on friends who base on streamers.

They aren't even affected by traditional advertising because they consume differently.

I think that's why Epic is prioritizing the way the are features wise. The biggest issue is their core market isn't quite old enough to have cash flow that isn't at least monitored, but this lays the groundwork for setting expectations as soon they will be the biggest potential market to capture.

Same reason why credit card companies love visiting college campuses, huge untapped market that doesn't have any set loyalties or expectations yet.

These are exactly my thoughts. Majority of us here are older folks, I personally don't like Reddit and Twitter, because it is too fast paced to have meaningful interactions, Reddit is less so but still is. But it's hard to deny that except some notable exceptions (e.g. era) forums are dying if not already dead, you basically have a subreddit for everything that used to be a standalone forum. Younger generation uses different social apps, like SnapChat or Tik-Tok which are extremely popular even though many of us here think that they are rather stupid.

Epic is at the forefront of working with this kind of audience, the results of things they do with Fortnite clearly shows that they indeed do understand what their audience wants. That's why I believe they know how to attract their audience to their store to play other stuff besides Fortnite. When Sergey said about plans to be half as big as Steam in 5-6 years, it's not like they'll pull audience from Steam it's mostly ppl who are not using Steam. (even though he mentioned in a later podcast that they had many ppl joining EGS for free games, meaning they never had Epic acc before)

I'm not 100% sold that this all will work out, but I do believe that they clearly know what they are doing.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out. I do wonder how much anything beyond very basic features actually weigh into why most people use a particular store. Given Fortnite's appeal to a very young audience I could definitely see a demographic split happen where in a couple of years the majority of younger PC gamers are on the Epic store.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
One more side-note about the Support-A-Creator scheme: it's reliant on fans remembering to put a streamer-specific code in a specific box during checkout. I would wager a large proportion of fans will forget, and the vast majority of the remainder are just going to put down "ninja".
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
One more side-note about the Support-A-Creator scheme: it's reliant on fans remembering to put a streamer-specific code in a specific box during checkout. I would wager a large proportion of fans will forget, and the vast majority of the remainder are just going to put down "ninja".
dont most of those things also have a promotional link that already fills the code for you? I would think that is how they do it to avoid that kind of situation.
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
Thanks for the summary daxy.
So I read the whole thread Sergey made on twitter saying how incorrect summary you made about his podcast but everything he is saying is in line with what you have translated Lol.
Also his prediction of epic having half the userbase of steam in 5-6 year's probably means they wont stop money hatting method anytime soon.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
This is all just been handled so poorly for a store coming out in end of 2018 going into 2019. Such basic key features like discovery for games, categories, refunding, local currency and heck even a more efficient UI for that sidebar.

What is worse is that it came directly to compete with Steam yet released with barebones elements and asked for people's money plus installation. You can't treat a store front like a game and early access it with drip feeding of basic features yet here Epic are and it sucks. See what the future holds I guess.
 

Thekeats

Member
Nov 1, 2017
651
So reading everything, I am definitely not the target market. I will never see the games through there preferred methods. I use YouTube for miniature painting tutorials, 40k battle reports and movie trailers. I use Facebook for pretty much the same thing and instagram is used to post my own painted miniatures.

That is it.

Whereas I do use Steam Curators, the Discovery Queue and wishlists to tailor my steam experience.

So unless a game is mentioned in the PC Era threads, RPS, Eurogamer or on my Steam Front Page I likely won't see it. Meaning their discovery solution will be worse than steams for me.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,299
We've already gone through why the reliance on influencers for curation isn't a great idea elsewhere for the thread, but it should be noted said influencers are all focused on big games and games that already gained traction elsewhere.
Could someone link me to that discussion? Haven't caught up on this thread yet.

Also wanting to chime in. Having a big audience for one of your games doesn't necessarily mean that success will trickle down to indie developers. I've already made a post in the past about sales of several indie games on PS4 being considerably down from other platforms.
 

TraumaHunter

Member
Apr 17, 2018
18
I might be an outerlier - but I don't use the support a creator codes as a direct indicator that I watched/consumed that content. You can use any code on any product in the store (vbucks/games etc)

Like I pre-ordered division 2 last week and I used timthetatman's code because I've been enjoying his content lately and wanted to support him with my purchase. Not because he was telling me to, not because I saw him play that content, simply because I just wanted to support a content creator whose content I enjoy.

It's not as if you have to click a link in the description to apply the code or anything - you can just enter whatever creator code you want during the checkout process.

Am I weird in thinking that a lot of creator code usage would go that way? Can totally accept being the weird one lol. I know how most people in this thread probably feel about the sentence "I pre-ordered the Division 2 on the Epic store" lol.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Yet the epicstore can't even match Steam 2008.

Dude the thing isn't even matching bloody UPlay come on.

Yes. Which is why it's a good thing that there's a plan - which they're now outlining - to significantly improve features.

I'm not sure what the benefit of wailing about the anemic launch features is.

It's the same for any service btw. If a Netflix competitor released and didn't support HD videos nor streaming, people would laugh.
Not in gaming though.
Not a good analogy. HD video and streaming are basics, and the Epic Store has the basics to launch and play a game in place.
A better analogy would be to ask if people would dismiss the upcoming Disney streaming service out of hand if at launch it lacked the offline download feature that Netflix has.

I feel that in the console space, if say Samsung came out with a streaming hardware option, moneyhatted exclusives, and lacked basic functionality the big 3 have, it would be completely laughed off the market and not seen as the "competition is good" blanket opinion that's so prevalent in the PC space for some reason...

This is laughable. Nintendo Switch launched with a massive feature gap compared to the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. No cloud saves, no streaming apps, no game sharing, no save backups, relying on mobile phones for voice chat, pricey games etc.
nobody 'laughed it off the market'.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,304
Yes. Which is why it's a good thing that there's a plan - which they're now outlining - to significantly improve features.

I'm not sure what the benefit of wailing about the anemic launch features is.


Not a good analogy. HD video and streaming are basics, and the Epic Store has the basics to launch and play a game in place.
A better analogy would be to ask if people would dismiss the upcoming Disney streaming service out of hand if at launch it lacked the offline download feature that Netflix has.



This is laughable. Nintendo Switch launched with a massive feature gap compared to the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. No cloud saves, no streaming apps, no game sharing, no save backups, relying on mobile phones for voice chat, pricey games etc.
nobody 'laughed it off the market'.


HD video aren't a basic. Playing video is a basic. But yeah you're right, I should've said the offline download video feature indeed.
In any case, people would laugh at all of that. But no, not in gaming. There are people such as you telling us "But listeeeen it's a new service (3 years old), it's fine if it doesn't have features that were on the competitor's client 11 years ago, 6 years ago and 5 years ago".

I don't care about "plans". No one should. That's not how everything work. It's not "Epic Games Store Big Charity Giveaway: Please support us against the evil Valve monopoly". You're launching a service ? Then bring a good service. Otherwise go home and come back next time you're prepare well enough.

You're not sure of the benefit of complaining about that ? Well that's because you are part of the problem. Either you are doing it willingly or unwillingly. But that's not okay to do. It's not okay to come and be inferior. No one would ever accept and say "well, they're new, give them a few years".

By the way, this very OP contradicts you in a big way: They're not interested in improving for customers but for devs. The problem isn't that it takes time or whatsoever:
Epic Games Store goal is to run a lower cut service that skimps on the features and make the customer eat the cost for them. Everytime the cut isn't enough, the customer will be here to pay. And when the customer won't be enough, it'll be the smaller devs to eat the cost for the influencers.

That policy is so toxic for the industry that Epic Store failling would be a great thing because it would send the message that what they're planning is unhealthy for the industry.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,795
JP
Well fuck influencers. I'd rather give money to devs directly(ideally) or steam than them.

Also, the whole reason I would go to a bookstore is to browse, if I already have something in mind oftentimes I would just purchase it online and pick up or have it delivered.
 

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
Removing discoverability in favor of letting influencers do the promotion?

Yeah, that's not a store focused on what I want at least.

There are very few, if any, influencers I want to give money. This feels like a very bad idea, and not something that will actually solve the discoverability problem for when (if) the store actually gets a lot of games.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,304
Removing discoverability in favor of letting influencers do the promotion?

Yeah, that's not a store focused on what I want at least.

There are very few, if any, influencers I want to give money. This feels like a very bad idea, and not something that will actually solve the discoverability problem for when (if) the store actually gets a lot of games.


More than that, according to Sergey, the point is that if you come to EPic Games Store, it's because you know what you want to buy there... This is in total contradiction with the fact that they want to bring a new userbase since that base would be new and not savy about games.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
The sales pitch of "only pay us 12%! Then give up a big chunk or your revenue in order to bribe streamers and Youtubers because that's our main discovery plan!" is absolutely hilarious.

I don't think anyone's angry. People are just disappointed because they could surely do better. With the biggest issue being that there's little incentive to start using the store for a few years before they've developed any of the features they're discussing.

I would argue that there will be zero incentive to use the store even after they implement all that stuff. Even if they implement everything they mentioned, they still won't have any unique selling points to get customers to buy games on the Epic store instead of Steam. Even then the Epic Games Store will essentially be "Steam, but worse". And that's assuming that Valve adds absolutely zero new features to the client in the next five years.

Won't this lead to influencers advertising the games that the highest payout? The more I read about this, the worse it looks...

Of course it will. Competition!

I can't stop laughing. He just listed everything Steam has been adding these past years.

Yeah, it's pretty funny.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,201
Belarus
It's baffling to read all those Galyonkin tweets because it really shows he is clueless on so many things, like the amount of "real" games released monthly or "game-shape objects exist primarily due to Steam trading cards" claim that was not the case since June 2018. I don't know where even to start, there is so much incorrect misinformation in those tweets it's hard to believe they were made by the guy how was analyzing Steam for years.

The funniest thing in all this for me is he believes that they could pull off a manual review of 150-200 good games on their store with their dedicated curation teams. As someone who is playing around 20-30 different games per month, I can assure you that this task is impossible to achieve with "small" moderators team. Notice that this is ONLY 150-200 good games, if they are going for "self-publishing" there will be a lot more than that, it's going to be at least 500 games monthly to review. It's not that easy to check how bad or good the game quality as Galyonkin imagining, not even professional reviewers are playing that many games. Unless they are going to hire an entire division of moderators to just play and review the games, their "small" 4-6 people curation team would have to play average 100 different games per moderator monthly, and I really want to see a person who would remain sane after few months of playing that amount of games.

If you are not going to spend any meaningful time to check and review games, then there is a high chance that many legit games won't pass epic's curation, because most of them would be denied only because how they look. We have numerous examples of such curation problems, GOG refused to release Opus Magnum on their store because it looked "like a mobile game", despite all critical acclaim and the fact that developers released their games on GOG before. With epic store and the amounts they are expecting to review, it's going to be only worse on the epic store. Because there is no guarantee they won't refuse to accept games simply because they "look like RPGMaker trash" or "look like hentai VN", or any other subjective reason why it won't be good enough to get in.

And the last revelation to bring - streamers not playing so many games either. If you are banking on influencers as the main source of marketing for games on your store, you need a reality check and realize that most of them playing only 1-2 popular games, and they won't spend their time on even tiny fraction of those 150-200 monthly games, because unless they are playing something popular their viewers numbers would go down. It's a vicious cycle and it leads to the fact that those games would be buried just like on Steam, but unlike Steam your store won't have another way to improve discoverability. Yes, lists and trending tabs are supposedly coming, but how it's different from what Steam is doing right now? Without major sales, it's eventually going to hurt long-term sales, because once streamers forget about you, you are basically dead.

So yeah, all those tweets only show that epic store will eventually become a Steam, but worse in almost every way. It's a shitty deal for players as customers, and it's a questionable deal for developers. After all this shitshow epic just made me sure I will avoid them like a plague because the way they are trying to push their store really stinks.