The Epic Brutality Of Unchecked Capitalism (The Jimquisition)

[Alexandros]

1. People falling for fake news is on them. Anyone with a genuine interest in the things Valve is doing for PC gaming has ample resources available to learn everything about it. The issue is not Valve not doing enough PR. The issue is people basing their entire opinion on an issue on a couple of unreliable and misinformed sources and not digging any deeper.

2. It has been debated and explained in many Valve-related threads that we don't all agree that some of the 'problems' that Valve doesn't fix are actual problems. Curation is a good example. Someone asking "why the hell won't Valve fix the curation problem" fails to realize that for many people there is no curation problem because they believe curation is a bad thing. Durante has explained this many times.

3. Even if someone thinks that Valve could be doing a better job a some areas, which is reasonable, supporting a garbage company like Epic which competes in an anti-consumer way and abuses the developers working for them just to get Valve to change a couple of things they don't like, is the equivalent of trying to kill a spider by dropping a bomb on your house and demolishing it.

 

[oni-link]

2. It has been debated and explained in many Valve-related threads that we don't all agree that some of the 'problems' that Valve doesn't fix are actual problems. Curation is a good example. Someone asking "why the hell won't Valve fix the curation problem" fails to realize that for many people there is no curation problem because they believe curation is a bad thing. Durante has explained this many times.

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Valve not seeing curation as a problem is fine, but if enough people want a curated PC store then there could be a market for it. Now, I don't think this is what Epic are going for, nor do I think everyone who is pro curation actually does want a new curated PC store, but if people want it and Valve don't want to do it, there is a gap in the market than a competitor is more than welcome to try and fill. If anything the console stores have been doing this kind of thing for a decade already

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

Valve not seeing curation as a problem is fine, but if enough people want a curated PC store then there could be a market for it. Now, I don't think this is what Epic are going for, nor do I think everyone who is pro curation actually does want a new curated PC store, but if people want it and Valve don't want to do it, there is a gap in the market than a competitor is more than welcome to try and fill. If anything the console stores have been doing this kind of thing for a decade already

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GOG's curated. Had to wait until Opus Magnum and Brigador had a modicum of success elsewhere before they changed their minds on allowing those on the store.

 

[Alexandros]

Valve not seeing curation as a problem is fine, but if enough people want a curated PC store then there could be a market for it. Now, I don't think this is what Epic are going for, nor do I think everyone who is pro curation actually does want a new curated PC store, but if people want it and Valve don't want to do it, there is a gap in the market than a competitor is more than welcome to try and fill. If anything the console stores have been doing this kind of thing for a decade already

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I agree. I don't have any problem with someone offering a curated store, although I suspect that many developers might.

 

[eonden]

The problem of curation is that it is called a problem without realizing the reason why we ended up in the current situation:
-Both devs and customers pushed Steam to be even more open about what games to accept, finally leading to Direct (and later on to allowing R18 games).

Devs and customers lobbied Steam to move away from curation because as the front-store of the most open gaming platform, it seemed as if they were making it harder for games to be succesful outside of it and telling customers what was and wasnt "good enough". If another big store tries to replace Steam as the front of PC Gaming, they will face the same issue from both indie devs and customers, as games that are good will be rejected and shitty games will be accepted.

On the side of Steam requiring curation, Steam HAS curation systems that make the experience of the shop unique for each person and allows you to make the store much more to your liking, with friends recommendations, curators and devs you follow. Should they continue improving on this and make them MUCH BETTER? OH GOD YES, but there is a "curation" factor on that.

 

[Ge0force]

Valve not seeing curation as a problem is fine, but if enough people want a curated PC store then there could be a market for it.

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If people want a curated store, they only have to click this link: https://store.steampowered.com/curators/

Or they can just visit their personalized store page which is curated based on your personal preferences, or they can use curated 3rd party keystores like Humble or GMG.

I will never understand why it bothers people that these asset-flip games EXIST, if Steam never show them to them unless they are actually looking for them. Funny thing is, when I'm asking people for examples when they are complaining about shovelware on their personal storepage, they are showing me legit games that they just aren't interested in. Merely clicking the "ignore" button is enough to make sure that Steam doesn't suggest these games or similar games anymore.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

Unchecked is unnecessary, just say capitalism.

 

[Alexandros]

The problem of curation is that it is called a problem without realizing the reason why we ended up in the current situation:
-Both devs and customers pushed Steam to be even more open about what games to accept, finally leading to Direct (and later on to allowing R18 games).

Devs and customers lobbied Steam to move away from curation because as the front-store of the most open gaming platform, it seemed as if they were making it harder for games to be succesful outside of it and telling customers what was and wasnt "good enough". If another big store tries to replace Steam as the front of PC Gaming, they will face the same issue from both indie devs and customers, as games that are good will be rejected and shitty games will be accepted.

On the side of Steam requiring curation, Steam HAS curation systems that make the experience of the shop unique for each person and allows you to make the store much more to your liking, with friends recommendations, curators and devs you follow. Should they continue improving on this and make them MUCH BETTER? OH GOD YES, but there is a "curation" factor on that.

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Well said.

 

[oni-link]

I will never understand why it bothers people that these asset-flip games EXIST, if Steam never show them to them unless they are actually looking for them. Funny thing is, when I'm asking people for examples when they are complaining about shovelware on their personal storepage, they are showing me legit games that they just aren't interested in. Merely clicking the "ignore" button is enough to make sure that Steam doesn't suggest these games or similar games anymore.

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It's a difficult one because people speak out against them for a lot of reasons, and a lot of those reasons are disingenuous

- You have people that don't like Steam and will use any reason to criticise them
- You have people that don't really use Steam or game on PC but they don't like the idea of using Steam because they believe there are too many bad games that bury the good
- You have people that dislike people getting away with essentially ripping off the work of others to trick people into buying tat
- You have people that say "curation" but actually they mean they just wish rape and hate games were removed faster

Often people will ignore these reasons and just argue back that curation is either bad for PC, or not a part of Steams policy, which is fine, but that won't appease people who are arguing in bad faith, and it doesn't convince people who think Valve should still remove unacceptable content quicker

 

[Ge0force]

It's a difficult one because people speak out against them for a lot of reasons, and a lot of those reasons are disingenuous

- You have people that don't like Steam and will use any reason to criticise them
- You have people that don't really use Steam or game on PC but they don't like the idea of using Steam because they believe there are too many bad games that bury the good
- You have people that dislike people getting away with essentially ripping off the work of others to trick people into buying tat
- You have people that say "curation" but actually they mean they just wish rape and hate games were removed faster

Often people will ignore these reasons and just argue back that curation is either bad for PC, or not a part of Steams policy, which is fine, but that won't appease people who are arguing in bad faith, and it doesn't convince people who think Valve should still remove unacceptable content quicker

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I have to admit I wouldn't be aware of these rape and hate games if the media wasn't reporting about them. But yes, Valve should remove these games faster. Removing illegal stuff and curation is something different tho. Curation is like saying "this game isn't good enough for Steam". That shouldn't happen imo.

What Steam should do is to prevent that the devs of bad games can't earn any money with them. People buying them on Steam can ask for a refund, but these crap games often make money through key reselling and trading cards.

 

[eonden]

I have to admit I wouldn't be aware of these rape and hate games if the media wasn't reporting about them. But yes, Valve should remove these games faster. Removing illegal stuff and curation is something different tho. Curation is like saying "this game isn't good enough for Steam". That shouldn't happen imo.

What Steam should do is to prevent that the devs of bad games can't earn any money with them. People buying them on Steam can ask for a refund, but these crap games often make money through key reselling and trading cards.

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Wrong on the crap games making money through those methods, Steam already closed that loophole a year or more ago. Trading cards (and games having access to the marketplace) is locked behind being "approved" by Steam. Same with achivements counting to the total achivement (and % of achivements done).

Key reselling is harder, but steam has toughened up a bit on the key giving by looking more into those kind of exceptional key request by low selling games (the ones that often saw 100 games for 1$) as well as making it so that only reviews from Steam account for the algorithm (sadly in this case, as I think reviews should have the same weight regardless of place they were bought but some developers tried to game the system).

The best way of taking more crap games would be by rising the Steam Direct fee, but the reason why it was so low was because the devs asked for it to be so low (originally Steam wanted to make it 1000$ (10x bigger than the current one) because they feared this kind of situation would happen. The fee is given back once a game sells a set amount).

 

[Doskoi Panda]

it still amazes me how much he spends all his other videos bitching about the companies themselves, but use epic to frame anger at capitalism

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Yeah it's pretty see-through

 

[TheEchosOfTheCyborg]

I'll never understand when people say "Curation isn't a problem" will always take extremes about it. It's either no curation at all or extreme curation like Steam had years ago, no middle ground which I find really disengenious. Rape games shouldn't be getting on your storefront AT ALL, yes, their is always going to be a game or 2 that will get through, but Steam allows anything at the moment and is one of the reasons smaller devs were moving away in the first place as Jim himself brought up when he intervied and discussed.

Valve actually checking to make sure what their selling has .EXE files, isn't a game that's going to give them a ton of negative attention, isn't just a free tutorial level or demo resold etc isn't that hard and is only harder because their so fixated on algorithms and automation and allowing the floodgates for everything in the first place.

And secondly, I realize that it's way late and the troll was banned already... But I should warn you about them because I recognize the username and personality. They would spam the old Jimqusistion site constantly, derailing comment threads in nearly every article and review until Justin banned them... Only to then continue over and over in different accounts, getting banned every time. Just to warn, they may do it again.

 

[eonden]

I'll never understand when people say "Curation isn't a problem" will always take extremes about it. It's either no curation at all or extreme curation like Steam had years ago, no middle ground which I find really disengenious. Rape games shouldn't be getting on your storefront AT ALL, yes, their is always going to be a game or 2 that will get through, but Steam allows anything at the moment and is one of the reasons smaller devs were moving away in the first place as Jim himself brought up when he intervied and discussed.

Valve actually checking to make sure what their selling has .EXE files, isn't a game that's going to give them a ton of negative attention, isn't just a free tutorial level or demo resold etc isn't that hard and is only harder because their so fixated on algorithms and automation and allowing the floodgates for everything in the first place.

And secondly, I realize that it's way late and the troll was banned already... But I should warn you about them because I recognize the username and personality. They would spam the old Jimqusistion site constantly, derailing comment threads in nearly every article and review until Justin banned them... Only to then continue over and over in different accounts, getting banned every time. Just to warn, they may do it again.

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They do a manual check up of 90% of the games they approve on Steam... (the other 10% are very likely games from AAA / trusted devs).

Edit: Rape day was also never approved for Steam (games can have Steam pages before being checked up by Steam to help with their promotion, which is a stupid thing to do when you allow R18 games to be in sale in Steam).

 

[darksteel6]

You seem to have little clue on what your talking about. Valve helped make PC gaming popular again by offering a great service with fair pricing. The used game market dissapearing was something that would have happened anyway with or without valve. The only thing epic has done was run away from pc gaming and now are trying to sleaze there way back in until they run away again because the egs store doesn't do what they want.

Nothing I've said is a conspiracy theroist. Jim has actively defended the epic game store just to shit on valve.

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Uh no he hasn't done it just to shit on valve, that is a conspiracy theory or at the very least wild conjecture. Sounds to me like you are the one who does not know what they are talking about.

 

[darksteel6]

what, like epic did a few years ago?

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Gears of War was my introduction to Epic so I don't really care about their past in that regard.

 

[darksteel6]

"the used PC market"
Ah yes, that used PC market with already redeemed serial keys or not working ones ? Great great.
By the way, if there's even a PC game market as of today, it's because Valve saved it with Steam.
As for "real games", define me real games.

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Games that aren't microtransaction ridden-messes like Artifact.

 

[darksteel6]

Another one with this ridiculous lie. Valve is adding more features, innovations and pro-consumer policies than any other storefront for games. If you consider this as Valve being lazy, how would you describe other storefronts on pc and console?

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I don't think it's a lie, that's just how it looks from a lot of people's perspectives since it's been ages since they've released a proper game. The reality most Steam users barely care about the features and all that other stuff, they just care about the games, I personally never use any of the features myself because they aren't really relevant to me.

 

[darksteel6]

My physical PC games that predated Steam required keys to use them.

So much for your used PC game market. Going hot and heavy with the Epic defense for such a young account. Makes you wonder...

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Not defending them, just saying it's not nearly as simple as "Steam good Epic Bad!" like so many of Valve's fanboys make it out to be.

 

[darksteel6]

Do you know what DRM used to be like?

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I know that it's gotten a hell of a lot worse since Steam came around. I'll take CD-keys over Denuvo any day of the week.

 

[darksteel6]

Where do you think they get the financial flexibility to offer what they themselves have called an unsustainable cut to developers? If the store is not making a sustainable profit then their other ventures are. In this case, it is well known that fortnite is their big money maker. Why? Because it gets constant updates to keep it fresh. How are they able to update it so frequently? Endless crunch.

Money doesn't materialize out of thin air.

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Never said that it did.


You don't seriously grasp how rich Tencent is.

 

[OldSocksAndShoes]

I know that it's gotten a hell of a lot worse since Steam came around. I'll take CD-keys over Denuvo any day of the week.

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You know that Denuvo isn't in every game, right? I don't think you have any concept of what DRM used to be.

I don't think it's a lie, that's just how it looks from a lot of people's perspectives since it's been ages since they've released a proper game. The reality most Steam users barely care about the features and all that other stuff, they just care about the games, I personally never use any of the features myself because they aren't really relevant to me.

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Controller support, cloud saves and achievements aren't relevant to you? Huh. Ok.

Speaking of features, there's a Resetera feature you may want to become familiar with: Quoting multiple people and responding to them in one post. There's no reason to have 7 consecutive posts.

 

[finalflame]

Games that aren't microtransaction ridden-messes like Artifact.

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I assure you Valve is working on "real" games as you describe.

Anyhow, great video. I think a lot of people have made a lot of really good points re: Valve's contribution to the PC market so I won't repeat them. One funny fact (or at least, I think it's funny) I think of often is how Epic's Bellevue offices are literally in the same building as Valve but just a few floors down from them. Heh.

 

[Deleted member 2840]

I assure you Valve is working on "real" games as you describe.

Anyhow, great video. I think a lot of people have made a lot of really good points re: Valve's contribution to the PC market so I won't repeat them. One funny fact (or at least, I think it's funny) I think of often is how Epic's Bellevue offices are literally in the same building as Valve but just a few floors down from them. Heh.

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So THAT'S why Tim is so angry. He can't deal with the daily noise of Valve developers moving their desks around.
How many times per week you rolled your desk when you were there?

 

[spam musubi]

Never said that it did.


You don't seriously grasp how rich Tencent is.

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That has nothing to do with my point. You keep moving the goal posts instead of acknowledging that Epic giving a "good deal" to studios is a direct outcome of many of their anti-consumer and anti-developer practices. Tencent being rich has nothing to do with Epic forcing crunch on their own developers, and you arguing that is almost a self-own. If they're so rich, then they should maybe utilize those resources for more developers and better product management.

Also you seem to think Tencent owns Epic. They are a plurality shareholder in Epic. Epic is beholden to Tencent, not the other way around. Epic's duty is to make money for Tencent.

 

[darksteel6]

That has nothing to do with my point. You keep moving the goal posts instead of acknowledging that Epic giving a "good deal" to studios is a direct outcome of many of their anti-consumer and anti-developer practices. Tencent being rich has nothing to do with Epic forcing crunch on their own developers, and you arguing that is almost a self-own. If they're so rich, then they should maybe utilize those resources for more developers and better product management.

Also you seem to think Tencent owns Epic. They are a plurality shareholder in Epic. Epic is beholden to Tencent, not the other way around. Epic's duty is to make money for Tencent.

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I'm not moving anything, the reality is to those studios it does not matter how Epic can afford to give them a better deal, after having to fight tooth and nail for shelf space on Steam amongst crap that has no business being released on a professional storefront like Rape Day and School Shooter Simulator you can hardly blame them for wanting to jump ship or at least explore different options. Bottom line-the studios do not care how the sausage is made, all they hear is "Epic's giving us a better deal then Steam" and that's enough for them to sign on. You don't have to like it, but that's just how it is.

I fail to see how me pointing out the flaws in your argument is a self-own at all.

Yes they should use their resources better, but if your expecting a big company to put employees physical and well-being ahead of profit well you're going to be very dissapointed.

 

[darksteel6]

You know that Denuvo isn't in every game, right? I don't think you have any concept of what DRM used to be.



Controller support, cloud saves and achievements aren't relevant to you? Huh. Ok.

Speaking of features, there's a Resetera feature you may want to become familiar with: Quoting multiple people and responding to them in one post. There's no reason to have 7 consecutive posts.

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no but it is in a disturbing amount of PC games and a lot of people don't like that, I myself have personally vowed to never buy any game on PC that has Denuvo in it, cause I flat out do not want the shit anywhere near my computer on principle. I don't care how much better a PC version of a game plays or looks then the console version, i'm picking the one that does not have Denuvo.


Sorry about that, kinda new here and i'm still getting used to posting.

 

[darksteel6]

I assure you Valve is working on "real" games as you describe.

Anyhow, great video. I think a lot of people have made a lot of really good points re: Valve's contribution to the PC market so I won't repeat them. One funny fact (or at least, I think it's funny) I think of often is how Epic's Bellevue offices are literally in the same building as Valve but just a few floors down from them. Heh.

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For their sake and everyone else's I sure hope so.


BTW i'm surprised Jim is making tomorrow's episode entirely about the Sonic film as movies aren't really something Jim talks about much outside of Spin Doctors, so i'm a little unsure if there's going to be enough material for a full episode without it feeling padded out.

As for the film itself, personally I didn't think the design of Sonic looked THAT bad, but I guess changing it is the best move at this point. Part of me thinks Paramount was already in the process of re-doing the design when they put up the trailer as Sega had apparently been complaining about the design for months, I can't help but wonder if this was their way of trying to generate more buzz for the film.

 

[finalflame]

So THAT'S why Tim is so angry. He can't deal with the daily noise of Valve developers moving their desks around.
How many times per week you rolled your desk when you were there?

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Don't quote me on this but The Pokemon Company might inhabit the floors between Valve and Epic (they're def also in the building); if I recall, we were on .. 15-19? I remember seeing Epic's elevator lobbies on the lower teen floors or 10-ish, with people getting off at Epic on my way up. Their elevator lobby is pretty "decorated" in their style/logo so it was hard to miss. Valve floors just had subtle floor numbering in DIN font, at the time; the elevator lobbies might be more built out now. If you're ever in Bellevue, WA it's at the Lincoln Square Expansion building; you can go to the lobby (floor 16 I think, the only one 15-19 the elevator will let you go up to without badging), where the big valve is, and try asking to schedule a tour. If the front desk has time, they'll get someone to give you a tour on the spot or at a future date. At least, that's how it went down in my days. The new merch room was really cool.

It's a pretty robust building though, all jokes aside I don't think they could hear the desks moving ;) I probably moved around half a dozen times total. The desks on wheels are definitely very real, though. The new cabals were bigger, IMO, in the new building. Generally speaking you might move your desk a few times a year, most likely not a weekly thing unless you have no focus on the work you want to do.

Anyhow, I digress. I finished watching the video and think Jim also makes some valid criticisms towards the end as they relate to Valve. This was prob the first Jimquisition video I truly enjoyed all the way through.

 

[Syril]

I know that it's gotten a hell of a lot worse since Steam came around. I'll take CD-keys over Denuvo any day of the week.

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Yeah it wasn't just CD keys. It was stuff like "you can only install this game two times ever" or "causes security issues so big Windows disabled it in an update". Go back father and you had things like "look up shit in the manual every time you want to play your game" and " hold this fucking prism up against your monitor to unscramble this code".

 

[Ge0force]

I don't think it's a lie, that's just how it looks from a lot of people's perspectives since it's been ages since they've released a proper game. The reality most Steam users barely care about the features and all that other stuff, they just care about the games, I personally never use any of the features myself because they aren't really relevant to me.

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In my opinion, the idea that a storefront owner needs to release 1st party games is completely ridiculous. What valve has done for pc gaming is much, much more important than a few games.

 

[CommodoreKong]

So THAT'S why Tim is so angry. He can't deal with the daily noise of Valve developers moving their desks around.
How many times per week you rolled your desk when you were there?

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I'm pretty sure Valve invented the payload game mode by rolling around their desks while shooting each other with nerf guns.

 

[darksteel6]

In my opinion, the idea that a storefront owner needs to release 1st party games is completely ridiculous. What valve has done for pc gaming is much, much more important than a few games.

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Eh I would disagree on that, and the reality is most gamers aren't going to care that much, they want games not "features".

 

[Ge0force]

Eh I would disagree on that, and the reality is most gamers aren't going to care that much, they want games not "features".

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It's not like Steam has no games m8. What difference does it make if these games are made by Valve or another publisher? A pc isn't a console where exclusivity is a selling point.

 

[darksteel6]

It's not like Steam has no games m8. What difference does it make if these games are made by Valve or another publisher? A pc isn't a console where exclusivity is a selling point.

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Um did I ever say it didn't have games? No of course I didn't say that, but the reality is a lot of people are dissapointed with Valve's lack of action on making first party titles. Yahtzee himself voiced his dissapointment in Valve in his review of "Hunt Down the Freeman" and I agree with him 100%.