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Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,427
lol no. some affordable housing/apartments are currently in development but almost everything else is condos. there's barely any mid-rise here so apts are about it but the pricing on that was pretty crazy pre-covid but has thankfully settled down for now.

"lol no" what? Is Toronto building or are they not? Doesn't matter if it's "affordable housing" or condos. I'm pretty sure Toronto is building.

Vancouver implemented its spec tax which largely made empty condos a thing of the past. This added about 8000 units to the rental pool over night. So yeah there was definitely empty condos out there, and it was worth implementing the tax, but these condo buildings weren't dominated by empty units.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,042
Terana
"lol no" what? Is Toronto building or are they not? Doesn't matter if it's "affordable housing" or condos. I'm pretty sure Toronto is building.

Vancouver implemented its spec tax which largely made empty condos a thing of the past. This added about 8000 units to the rental pool over night. So yeah there was definitely empty condos out there, and it was worth implementing the tax, but these condo buildings weren't dominated by empty units.
oh boy. you really have no idea. LOL

it matters because empty condos and air bnbs are pretty much the norm here and still are.

and condos aren't affordable housing
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,427
I'm talking from my own experience of the real estate situation in Vancouver and I obviously don't live in Toronto so why don't you please share for the rest of the class.
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
About $787k USD. Seems like LA.

Wife and I put saw a nice house in San Pedro at $570k in Jan. We were going to come in at $630k but it went for $700k. Just absurd.
 

Star-Lord

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,782
How the fuck am I going to afford a house...
I'm 24 and still doing school but I can't imagine how I can afford to buy a +800k house :(
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,427
it matters because empty condos and air bnbs are pretty much the norm here and still are.

and condos aren't affordable housing

Yeah Vancouver as done more than Toronto on this, with a 20% foreign buyer tax, and Spec tax, and Airbnb regs, and all of this made prices stall and decline, but they leapt right back up as soon as Bank of Canada lowered rates. I'm quite sure foreign speculators left the market, but Canadian speculators were all too happy to jump in and take their place.

I've always been a strong proponent of these demand side regulations, and I think they were worth implementing, but it was clear after they were implemented that the damage was already done, and there was plenty of remaining demand from Canadians alone to keep the real estate market frothy.

Worth noting now that there's of course zero demand for Airbnb and those units have flooded back onto the market, which has increased vacancy, but again, nothing incredible that has really changed much.
 

ElNino

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,706
How the fuck am I going to afford a house...
I'm 24 and still doing school but I can't imagine how I can afford to buy a +800k house :(
There's no reason you need to buy a home in the near term, particularly in this market. Rent for as long as you feel comfortable, or for friends of mine with no kids who like to travel, rent for your entire life until retirement. There are plenty of ways to invest for retirment without having a property income.

We moved out of the city to the east end (Durham) back in 2006 because the homes even at that time were either way overpriced, needed a ton of work or were in a terrible area of town. Basically nothing we wanted when we were starting a family. However, now even where we are our $400k home from 2006 could now sell for well over $1 million if we staged it properly. But, even if we decided to sell the home we then moved into would almost assuredly cost more than this one.

We have considered moving well east of the city to be closer to our children's school as they bus to it now, but that would make any commute into the office even longer than it already is (if/when we can go back into the office). I do like the the idea of ending up with more privacy and land, but unfortunately most of the property we have looked at also ends up in a wasteland of communications, so no reliable high speed internet which would be mandatory.
 

bloodyroarx

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,859
Ontario, Canada
We inherited a house from my MIL here in Hamilton and honestly if we didnt we probably would of been priced out to the middle of nowhere just to rent, much less own
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
That doesn't seem likely with NYC. Even if Toronto somehow gain 2 million people and NYC somehow lost 2 million people, NYC would still has a bigger population.

toronto is not just a big metro city... it's a cluster of big cities. there's like 20 cities over 100k population in one dense cluster.

so when you look at New York metro, you look at the Golden Horseshoe as a rough comparison.
 

Lionheart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,840
My town (less than 2 hours from Toronto) was a bargain for the first 33 years of my life. I'm 34 and started looking to buy this year and i was effectively priced out of my city.

Incredibly bad timing. My dads house was bought in 2005 for 200k, it's a decent size, now it's over 600k. I bid on 4 houses and was outbid by 70-80k and i was already 100k over asking.

i ended up buying a new development 30 minutes outside my small city, , thank god i locked in the price, it's probably already worth 100k above what i paid.

absolute dumps in my city are going for 500k when they were 150k 6-7 tests ago. New home owners are geeged. Firsti was going to rent (just got married) but in thismarket we knew if we didn't buy now we never would be able to
 

catpurrcat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,789
Currently looking to move into something bigger, and I believe it. Milton prices are absolutely INSANE...Single detached house purchased for $435K (6 year ago), the agent wants to list for $990K and is expecting multiple offers.

Anything double car garage with a larger footprint is $1.4K EASY...

I have no clue as to how younger people will be able to afford to make these purchases.

Per your last question, I don't know a single person who bought their home without parental or grandparental help, post 2008. Not one.

And then it's flip flip flip.... they buy a tiny home in a far-flung area or a condo. Flip that in a couple of years. Move up to the next highest level. Flip that. In 10 years they would've moved three or four times.

Multiply that by thousands of people. and add in low interest rates.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
toronto is not just a big metro city... it's a cluster of big cities. there's like 20 cities over 100k population in one dense cluster.

so when you look at New York metro, you look at the Golden Horseshoe as a rough comparison.
Unless I'm missing something, the Greater Golden Horseshoe is about 12k square miles and 9.2M people. The NYC metro is about 13k square miles and 20.3M people.


 

Deleted member 8901

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,522
Toronto is kinda expected since it's basically where the top tier jobs are but Vancouver really has their BC Liberals to thank for selling out their own citizens to Chinese investors and money launderers.
 

Strat

Member
Apr 8, 2018
13,329
Rich foreign investors, or people with enough money buying and flipping properties like it's just for sport, are squeezing everyone fucking dry.

I lived in a really shitty "3 bedroom" bungalow in Richmond Hill that I rented from a friend about 3 years ago. The amount of houses that got bought and sat empty, or got immediately demolished and rebuilt, before again sitting empty with a sale sign up, was fucking insane. Absolute shit boxes selling for 1.2 - 1.3 million. People would pull up in fancy cars and ring the door bell to ask about buying the house.

All this shit makes me fucking furious.
 

Tigerfog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
766
Montreal
Sometimes I think of my family in Toronto who bought houses in Oakland years ago.
Back then, I was already wondering how they could afford a real house since the real estate market was bad back then.
Now it's even worse and reading your posts make me stressed just thinking about it.

The condo market in Montreal is pretty stagnant right now. People are running away from downtown Montreal and looking to buy a bigger home in the suburbs due to the ability to work from home. I think there are 20 units on sale in my building due to that (and also due to the fact that the "biggest condo building of MTL" is being built next door and they're detonating dynamites all day long).

I'm in the process of finalizing the sale of of tiny tiny condo in the heart of downtown. I didn't sell it for as much as I could've due to the current situation, but on the other hand, the other condos I'm looking to buy also have a hard time selling and that's what I'm gunning for.
My broker told me that a house in Beloeil (South Shore of MTL) got 32 visits in less than 2 days. How crazy is that?
People have also overbid on homes without even visiting them.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
Per your last question, I don't know a single person who bought their home without parental or grandparental help, post 2008. Not one.
I do, but you need two fulltime good jobs or one insanely good job.
The condo market in Montreal is pretty stagnant right now. People are running away from downtown Montreal and looking to buy a bigger home in the suburbs due to the ability to work from home. I think there are 20 units on sale in my building due to that (and also due to the fact that the "biggest condo building of MTL" is being built next door and they're detonating dynamites all day long).

I'm in the process of finalizing the sale of of tiny tiny condo in the heart of downtown. I didn't sell it for as much as I could've due to the current situation, but on the other hand, the other condos I'm looking to buy also have a hard time selling and that's what I'm gunning for.
My broker told me that a house in Beloeil (South Shore of MTL) got 32 visits in less than 2 days. How crazy is that?
People have also overbid on homes without even visiting them.
Haha have a friend who used to have a "city view", until they built condos beside, now it's a view of another condo.
Unsellable place, or at a huge loss
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Didn't Vancouver implement laws that tried to discourage people from flipping homes or buying houses purely for investment purposes? With rules like taxing people harder if they didn't live in the houses they bought, or if they sold again within a year or two.

Though from what I've heard (haven't been following closely), such laws have only slowed down the growth instead of stopping it.
Yep I volunteered with org called progress Toronto to pass a vacant homes tax in Toronto. Toronto Council voted on it and implementation is being studied. Call your councillors to make it start at 1.5%. Vancouver was so successful they increased it after a year. Of course it won't fix everything but it helps.
 

AlphaTwo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
242
Toronto
Honestly, if work from home continues on for more than a year and becomes permanent, I may consider bouncing out of the GTA by getting the profits off my current home(almost paid off) and moving somewhere in northern Ontario while prices are still low and the growing radius of hyped up prices hasn't expanded there yet.

What entices me to stay is the premium 25% geo pay for working in the GTA. There are some tech companies who have a similar policy. Facebook tried to do this fucked up thing in the USA where they told their employees that if they worked in certain cities, they would get similar geo pay, but if they chose to work remotely elsewhere, the salary would be impacted.



😆
As far as I know there's no geo pay fence for me, so me bailing out to Simcoe county(which is technically not GTA) should still be ok. But yeah, never mind that Milton/Georgetown corridor, even the north is nuts in how bidding works.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Never going to get a home here. I work here, a pretty decent job, I'm a city boy and I grew up here and I can't even own a home here to call my own.

I'm not even asking for them to be given to me, I just want a fair, normal price, not this bubble that's been going on for over 25 years.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Yep I volunteered with org called progress Toronto to pass a vacant homes tax in Toronto. Toronto Council voted on it and implementation is being studied. Call your councillors to make it start at 1.5%. Vancouver was so successful they increased it after a year. Of course it won't fix everything but it helps.
Are there more details about this? Is it just called the vacant homes tax?

Wait till the market crashes?
The problem with that is that the bubble's been known for years, and people have been saying "it'll pop soon" for years. People were saying that to me years ago when I was looking for a place, and it still hasn't happened.

For people who are currently looking for a place, "wait for the bubble to pop" isn't really feasible because they can't just leave their whole lives hanging like that, especially when they're literally watching houses get priced out of their budget with each month that they wait.
 
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OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,660
As far as I know there's no geo pay fence for me, so me bailing out to Simcoe county(which is technically not GTA) should still be ok. But yeah, never mind that Milton/Georgetown corridor, even the north is nuts in how bidding works.

From your experience, when did the madness start encroaching into your neck of the woods? Was it recent, or you could see it coming a mile away?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,085
Per your last question, I don't know a single person who bought their home without parental or grandparental help, post 2008. Not one.

And then it's flip flip flip.... they buy a tiny home in a far-flung area or a condo. Flip that in a couple of years. Move up to the next highest level. Flip that. In 10 years they would've moved three or four times.

Multiply that by thousands of people. and add in low interest rates.
Unless there is a lot of growth, you cannot realistically buy and sell so quickly to climb the ladder. Theincentives are just not there plus realtor fees, etc. Title transfer is like 6k and only free if under 500k for first home. You are also spending money on renovations, strata, etc that make flipping your primary residence not good. Easier to buy a fixer-upper that has been on rew for 90 days and fix that. Plenty of those in my area that no one wants.
 

Tigerfog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
766
Montreal
I do, but you need two fulltime good jobs or one insanely good job.

Haha have a friend who used to have a "city view", until they built condos beside, now it's a view of another condo.
Unsellable place, or at a huge loss

I also was able to buy my own place in 2011 in Montreal, but it was really a scenario of all stars being aligned for this to happen.
-I was living with my folks all my life, including during university and the first few years of holding a full time job to save money
-The listing was from craigslist and the owner had to leave for Algeria so the deal had to closed super fast.
-The place is super tiny.
Take any one of those these points away and it would've been much more difficult to buy anything.

About the city view, I'm on the 5th floor and it used to be a parking lot. So other than car alarms or homeless people screaming on weekends, it was quiet.
I should've sold my place a year ago, the moment they announced the construction of a new condo tower exactly where the parking lot was.
Since the beginning of the confinement (ironic), it's excruciatingly noisy during weekdays. We're talking drill and heavy machinery with jackhammers all day long till 5PM.
And to make things worse, they detonate dynamites 5 times a day for a month now, up till May.
Every time that happens, I can feel the tremor and it's unpleasantly loud.
I was able to sell with a profit, but had I sold it earlier, I would've been better off.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,331
Man, I'm so glad I bought my condo when I did. I don't even live in Toronto, but the value of my condo has almost doubled in three years. Needless to say, my salary has not.

It's not just the GTA. COVID appears to have sent the market off the rails across a lot of Ontario.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Are there more details about this? Is it just called the vacant homes tax?


The problem with that is that the bubble's been known for years, and people have been saying "it'll pop soon" for years. People were saying that to me years ago when I was looking for a place, and it still hasn't happened.

For people who have just gotten married something, or are otherwise looking for a place, "wait for the bubble to pop" isn't really feasible because they can't just leave their whole lives hanging like that, especially when they're literally watching houses get priced out of their budget with each month that they wait.
https://www.progresstoronto.ca/

These are the people I learned about it through and their super friendly if you reach out to them. Also a lot of issues like transitional housing and child care coming up for vote since budgets being worked, sign the petitions on the site and call your councillor it's best time to do so.

Post vote info is here.

https://www.toronto.ca/news/city-co...on-plan-for-a-tax-on-vacant-homes-in-toronto/
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,085
This is why this entire thing is such BS. So hard to break in. Feels like an endless goal, and even when you make it in there's a mortgage to your name for the rest of your life.
Well, people are going for detached housing as their starter home. It doesn't work that way anymore near major cities. You either go for a 10 year old townhouse or a condo and sit on it. Equity is still equity. Most folks don't realize you can even get a 550sf low rise unit and put 20% down and the rent alone will most likely pay the mortgage and strata especially at these rates. Like, if your job is decent or you live with a partner, a 280k mortgage after a 20% deposit on a 350k condo can yield a lot especially if you double down and rent the other. Mortgages are only daunting if you don't have a lot to put down and you borrow, like, the maximum your lender will offer.
 

Shorty11857

Member
Oct 25, 2017
829
Bought a townhouse just before Christmas, cost 997.5k. Place is nice but doesn't feel in anyway like a million dollar house
 

AlphaTwo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
242
Toronto
From your experience, when did the madness start encroaching into your neck of the woods? Was it recent, or you could see it coming a mile away?
oh I'm the one encroaching, not the other way around. Sold our place in Vaughan, moving up to Bradford. The bidding wars around the area is a bit crazy. One house we were looking at had like 21 offers, went from 820 to 950k.

we bought in November, and we're like the prices can't keep climbing. Checking now, the house in the area is already another 50k-100k upwards above what they were late last year.
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,912
If my parents didn't move across the country before I was born I'd probably still be living with them because I couldn't afford anything else. They played the long, long, long game.
 

Birdito

Member
Oct 30, 2017
979
My fiancée and I are fortunate enough to be moving (back) in to the house she grew up in in Markham. Otherwise there's no way we'd be able to buy a place in the GTA anytime soon. We've been renting in Markham for the last 6 months, and family obligations require us to move back. Multi-generation homes can be good, but there's pros and cons.

The price creep even hit the Windsor area (my hometown), prices there are high compared to what they've been historically.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
That's a lot of ifs for straight-line projections. But sure, they might continue forever I guess.

there's one big reason it's not expected to stop any time soon.

multiple city center developments.

mississauga is going nuts with developments like SQ1 district or Lakeview Village
vaughan is going nuts with developments like the VMC
etobicoke is going nuts with developments like 2150 Lake Shore or Sherway Gardens or Cloverdale

these are just a few in the suburbs lol

How about a handful of uptown/downtown? East Harbour, 2180 yonge, The Well, One Yonge + Sugar Wharf, ORCA Project, Golden Mile, West Don Lands and we know they're eventually going to drop a big one for the Scarborough Town Centre... the clusters that are forming then encourage development in the gaps between them. But these projects are also going to take 20 years to finish at least... which is how we have an idea that growth is likely to continue.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Asia
I think the mistake is just in pursuing the dream of owning a house. Urbanization and land limits just kill the idea of suburbia.

Owning an apartment should be an achievable dream in urban areas though, which is where zoning, defeating NIMBYism, etc are probably required to make any kind of headway. That Metro Vancouver still can't make it work despite massive development is a sign of other problems, like the resale market, external investment, etc.

Here in Singapore, the apartment ownership dream works mostly because:
  1. Land time limits (you don't own, property are 99 year leases that do not refresh). Kind of a necessity in an island city-nation.

  2. Government buildings ("HDB") exist for the majority of the population who cannot afford million dollar condos. These government apartments have standardized layouts and are the only way you get subsidies or discounts. They are of course totally liveable and you can reno as you please, plus the government subsidiary actually has to address structural damage, but unlike condos there are no pools or general monthly bill amenities. Basically, if you want a 250-500k flat it's one of these. If you want a private condo, thats your 500-5m range.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
there's one big reason it's not expected to stop any time soon.

multiple city center developments.

mississauga is going nuts with developments like SQ1 district or Lakeview Village
vaughan is going nuts with developments like the VMC
etobicoke is going nuts with developments like 2150 Lake Shore or Sherway Gardens or Cloverdale

these are just a few in the suburbs lol

How about a handful of uptown/downtown? East Harbour, 2180 yonge, The Well, One Yonge + Sugar Wharf, ORCA Project, Golden Mile, West Don Lands and we know they're eventually going to drop a big one for the Scarborough Town Centre... the clusters that are forming then encourage development in the gaps between them. But these projects are also going to take 20 years to finish at least... which is how we have an idea that growth is likely to continue.
Those are impressive architectural renderings -- thank you for compiling them! Even having visited, I had no idea how sprawling the Toronto area had gotten. It sure seems like a cool time to live there, when money is betting on Toronto's future like that. But I think your claim that the population of the GTA Greater Golden Horseshoe is "likely" to overtake the LA and NYC metro areas (which are currently ~2X the size) may require more evidence. I myself am not familiar with the architectural renderings of any of those three places, or the likelihood of those renderings becoming reality. It is certainly interesting, though! Cheers!
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247
Homes for $1.1M last year are now $1.4M, and it's still under construction.

I don't understand. How can people afford this?! Even with low interest rate, you need to show a great paying job making $100,000+, with money saved up for at least 5-10 years to get a mortgage, and pay for another 30 years.

A lot of greasy hand...
 

Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,988
Get a job that let you work remotely and move to Alberta, houses are like 1/3 the price with moe amenity space lol
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,085
Homes for $1.1M last year are now $1.4M, and it's still under construction.

I don't understand. How can people afford this?! Even with low interest rate, you need to show a great paying job making $100,000+, with money saved up for at least 5-10 years to get a mortgage, and pay for another 30 years.

A lot of greasy hand...
Generally these million dollar homes aren't someone's first purchase. A lot of folks buy into smaller apartments and sell them after aggressively paying off the mortgage. Like, if someone lives at home for 2 years with a reasonable job they can save enough for 20% on a cheap apartment. Mortgage and strata can amount to less than 1500 (which depending on the area is less than rent). Those places do not take long to actually pay off especially if you have a partner. Add another individual who does the same. Those 2 places can grow to about 400k. You sell both and you're looking at a much smaller mortgage with a lower interest rate with dual incomes. Probably save $600 a month due to no strata fees. And if the place is big enough, you can rent a section or room for a decent chunk of your mortgage allowing you to pay it off faster.

A lot of people just think they can jump to a bigger detached home as their first purchase. Better have rich parents or live in Princeton or some small town.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
Those are impressive architectural renderings -- thank you for compiling them! Even having visited, I had no idea how sprawling the Toronto area had gotten. It sure seems like a cool time to live there, when money is betting on Toronto's future like that. But I think your claim that the population of the GTA Greater Golden Horseshoe is "likely" to overtake the LA and NYC metro areas (which are currently ~2X the size) may require more evidence. I myself am not familiar with the architectural renderings of any of those three places, or the likelihood of those renderings becoming reality. It is certainly interesting, though! Cheers!

Pretty much all of them except Sherway and ORCA are likely going to happen. (both are fighting over parkland) Some are under construction already (The Well, One Yonge, Sugar Wharf, Lakeview Village, VMC bit by bit)... 2150 is expected to start in 2024. SQ1 within the next couple years.

I was merely just singling out multi tower projects. There are so many single building developments ongoing that it's really impossible to track them all. Last we checked that in 100m+ tower count, the GTA was on track to surpass NYC just based on currently announced proposals alone. Population wise, Toronto will lag behind largely because the city it pathetic when it comes to midrises which is where a lot of NYC population resides... we go from skyscrapers almost immediately down to single family homes lol but that's why we say eventually.... Toronto has tons of room to grow when it needs to.

also this twitter account is a really good one for visualizing a lot of changes happening around Toronto
 
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Deleted member 6173

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,088
Glad I bought in 2016. Even then I was thinking I was too late. I remember seeing properties for sale by queen and Bathurst in the 150k range in 2005. It's crazy how much things are going up.