The diversity in ways to kill enemies in Symphony of the Night is high tier.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

I like SotN for its levels, sprites, enemy death noises, music, and blind nostalgia, but 'gameplay' wise the equipment diversity is what makes it as replayable as it is for me.

There are dozens of "normal" weapons in the game but a lot of amazing unique ones as well. Crissaegrim is the most memey but it's kind of bland compared to others IMO.

Instead of swinging a sword like you are meant to, you can instead throw it. Obnoxious to farm, but the Heaven and Rune Swords are the best.

Some weapons let you do both, so you can swing at enemies like a barbaric thug, or better, do an input motion and cast a spell with the weapon instead

You can do nothing and let your familiars attack for you, while also building a meaningful relationship and listening to their banter.

You can abandon weapons and use magic (not really but whatever).

Even the shields kill enemies! Thank you, Shield Rod.

I think playing SotN when I was young influenced me into liking gear diversity as much as I do now, for better or worse. Different "builds" making for fun repeat playthroughs is probably most of the reason why I like the Souls franchise. On the other hand, learning there was basically a single main weapon (I know there are other abilities) in Hollow Knight made my interest in it pretty low before playing. That's all and I leave you with the spooky dark shield attack sprite.

MidnightCowboy · Mar 2, 2019

Yes! This is what separates Castlevania from the rest of the pack. Love Hollow Knight, but you use the same weapon for 40 hours straight.

Segafreak · Mar 2, 2019

That's because SOTN is a high tier game, ranked as the best in its genre.

Dreamboum · Mar 2, 2019

It is really good. It can be a deep RPG, it can be a hack and slash and it can be a fighting game whenever you want to

Crocodile · Mar 2, 2019

A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

requiem · Mar 2, 2019

MidnightCowboy said:
Yes! This is what separates Castlevania from the rest of the pack. Love Hollow Knight, but you use the same weapon for 40 hours straight.

This is where the sound design really shines. In 50 hours of gameplay I never grew tired of hearing that satisfying SNAP of the nail - consequently I never even realised I'd never actually used a different weapon.

Gorgosh · Mar 2, 2019

MidnightCowboy said:
Yes! This is what separates Castlevania from the rest of the pack. Love Hollow Knight, but you use the same weapon for 40 hours straight.

But I think Hollow Knight has a slight edge in the overall design because of this, because you only need to balance the whole game and bosses around one Weapon and few magics and not a shitton of weapon and skills.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

Crocodile said:
A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

Not only is there not reason but the drop rate would deter them anyway lol.

Segafreak said:
That's because SOTN is a high tier game, ranked as the best in its genre.

This past week has been the first time I've ever played SotN and Aria of Sorrow back to back and I almost might like Aria more. The Souls are arguably more fun to use than some of the weapons in SotN, and while I think the idea of the Inverted Castle is really cool, it's a bit less fun to go through it because you already have all of the traversal abilities unlocked and so it almost feels way too open going in.

Still, SotN has better sprites and death animations / noises (not sure why I like the variety of death noises so much) so not sure which I'd put in first place. If Aria had some cool death sounds, it would probably beat out SotN.

GranddadFreeman · Mar 2, 2019

I love having different weapons to choose from. That's one way to get me to put all sorts of time into your game.

Someone recommended Hollow Knight to me. I looked at some youtube clips and asked, "do you get other weapons?" I have it on Steam from a Humble thing but I don't know if I'll play it any time soon

GymWolf86 · Mar 2, 2019

is not the goat of the genre for nothing.

the game has a huge variety in every aspects.

Akira86 · Mar 2, 2019

MidnightCowboy said:
Yes! This is what separates Castlevania from the rest of the pack. Love Hollow Knight, but you use the same weapon for 40 hours straight.

fuck really? I assumed from the reading that there would be later weapons...i was hoping for a spear or an axe or something, damn.

aerie · Mar 2, 2019

Symphony is really amazing in all these regards. It gave you such a varied box to play with when it came to items, weapons, and just random little fun things. It is a little broken and unbalanced, but that kind of adds to the charm too.

Akira86 said:
fuck really? I assumed from the reading that there would be later weapons...i was hoping for a spear or an axe or something, damn.

You can do a lot of different character builds in Hollow Knight, and gain some new abilities and techniques as you progress, but the core attacks will remain quite similar. Weapon variety is not Hollow Knight's strength, but it has many others. I do quite prefer the combat in Hollow Knight to its peers however, and it still offers a great deal of variety, just not to the experimental level of Symphony of the Night. Don't let this one area put you off, go in with the right expectations and Hollow Knight can be a wonderful experience.

I have not enjoyed a game of this genre as much since playing SotN for the first time.

lazygecko · Mar 2, 2019

signal said:
Not only is there not reason but the drop rate would deter them anyway lol.

This past week has been the first time I've ever played SotN and Aria of Sorrow back to back and I almost might like Aria more. The Souls are arguably more fun to use than some of the weapons in SotN, and while I think the idea of the Inverted Castle is really cool, it's a bit less fun to go through it because you already have all of the traversal abilities unlocked and so it almost feels way too open going in.

Still, SotN has better sprites and death animations / noises (not sure why I like the variety of death noises so much) so not sure which I'd put in first place. If Aria had some cool death sounds, it would probably beat out SotN.

With Castlevania there's usually the matter of juxtaposing the presentation aspect against the actual game design and weighing them against eachother. Aria is more tightly designed and better balanced than SotN for sure, but SotN as an audiovisual spectacle where you get enjoyment from just finding all the cool little details they put everywhere and soaking in the atmosphere has a lot of merit in its own right. Same thing with Castlevania 4 where there's a lot to criticize but it's still one of the most atmospheric games in the series which people enjoy a lot for casual playthroughs.

Blade Wolf · Mar 2, 2019

I mean, it's a masterpiece.

Natsuko · Mar 2, 2019

Crocodile said:
A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

This is one of the reasons I appreciate OoE since it's the only Metroidvania in which experimenting with different weapons actually matters.

Bede-x · Mar 2, 2019

It's the other way around. That "diversity" is one of the weakest aspects of the game, leaving you with tons of options that aren't balanced or integrated into the design, making most little curiosities rarely used. It's fun to see the animations and variety, but that's as far as it goes.

I'd rather have tighter design and fewer RPG elements. When you have few weapons, you can design enemies and situations around how they react to them. When you have tons, it more often results in a RPG stat like difference, with less thought put into how each fit every individual situation.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

Bede-x said:
It's the other way around. That "diversity" is one of the weakest aspects of the game, leaving you with tons of options that aren't balanced or integrated into the design, making most little curiosities rarely used. It's fun to see the animations and variety, but that's as far as it goes.

I'd rather have tighter design and fewer RPG elements.

I'd say the variety might be a weakness because the average person might be tempted to jump around too much but I don't see them as poorly 'integrated into the design'. Balance is an issue for some but I'd still leave those in as curiosities like you said. I don't think that many are poorly balanced, unless you were bringing up balance as an issue because people might be tempted to use things that are obviously broken and thus not bother with the rest.

Jobbs · Mar 2, 2019

MidnightCowboy said:
Yes! This is what separates Castlevania from the rest of the pack. Love Hollow Knight, but you use the same weapon for 40 hours straight.

then you're just choosing not to exercise the options. Hollow Knight has a lot of diversity and options available, and more meaningful ones than the attacks in the OP. Castlevania games are known for having a lot of attacks that aren't actually useful or meaningful.

I think people give SOTN too much credit. It was good for its time but it doesn't hold up now

SantaC · Mar 2, 2019

Segafreak said:
That's because SOTN is a high tier game, ranked as the best in its genre.

Hollow Knight cant hold a candle to SotN

Bede-x · Mar 2, 2019

signal said:
I don't think that many are poorly balanced, unless you were bringing up balance as an issue because people might be tempted to use things that are obviously broken and thus not bother with the rest.

That's certainly a part of it (in addition to the lines I added while you wrote your answer) and it also leads to more time spent in an inventory screen comparing stats of weapons.

In general, while I love Symphony, I rarely find RPG elements to be a positive in the genre for the reasons mentioned earlier.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

Jobbs said:
then you're just choosing not to exercise the options. Hollow Knight has a lot of diversity and options available, and more meaningful ones than the attacks in the OP. Castlevania games are known for having a lot of attacks that aren't actually useful or meaningful.

I think people give SOTN too much credit. It was good for its time but it doesn't hold up now

Not sure what you mean here by useless. People might enjoy or not enjoy a game having a lot of equipment options which is fine, but arguably the majority of games could be fine with having a single sword / gun / spell / whatever that increases over time, with every additional option being "useless" (ignoring resistances and other specifics). I can see too much variety being a negative for some, especially with a lot of unique items that make a lot of plain items borderline pointless, but I think it still adds meaning, even if it's just for style points.

Revolsin · Mar 2, 2019

I remember SotN being okay, the difficulty was pretty low for most of it that you didn't much need to think through anything. The only aside for that is the boss in the last gif in the OP, who I genuinely recall being really hard.

Aria was definitely more consistently fun. Honestly I can't think of a single way it was actually worse than SotN, just had a shit ton of cool stuff in it. Though that might be nostalgia talking considering I played Aria in my childhood on the GBA and SotN a lot later.

But overall I do miss these type of games a lot. Genuine 2D games made with a ton of budget and large teams to ensure a huge amount of unique content and distinct animations/locations/items. Games like Hollow Knight try to compare, but they really can't just in terms of sheer volume. Hollow Knight has to get by with fairly similar looking locations and a lack of notable customization, but big 2D games of old didn't have those limitations. Makes me sad that we're long past the age where such games can be made.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

Revolsin said:
Honestly I can't think of a single way it was actually worse than SotN

Less cool sprites, no flashback intro, shittier backdash, and the enemies don't have unique death screams.

Tibarn · Mar 2, 2019

SOTN will be always an special game to me, lots of options, secrets and a really fun gameplay.

I think that the rune system in Ecclesia is better though, it has lots of options and flexiblity and the game has harder enemies/bosses to make you use the system in depth.

Subconian Dreamer · Mar 2, 2019

Yeah, but

KtotheRoc · Mar 2, 2019

SOTN is a top tier game, and definitely gave Castlevania the shot in the arm it needed at the time.

(Don't get me wrong. I love the Belmonts and all their whip welding action.)

ApeEscaper · Mar 2, 2019

Crocodile said:
A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

Played for the first time last month I didn't find it that easy, there is some challenge esp for first time players

Ghost Rider · Mar 2, 2019

SoTN is one of my all time favorite games and gets a spot on my incredibly small list of games that I will actually play more than once.

FaceHugger · Mar 2, 2019

I still can't believe we never got another one, especially given its extreme high praise throughout the generations as new people discover it. Konami. *shakes head*

signal · Mar 2, 2019

FaceHugger said:
I still can't believe we never got another one, especially given its extreme high praise throughout the generations as new people discover it. Konami. *shakes head*

Didn't we get several? lol

FaceHugger · Mar 2, 2019

signal said:
Didn't we get several? lol

They never released another like SotN, no. I'm not referring to ports, which of course were bound to happen.

OrangeNova · Mar 2, 2019

FaceHugger said:
They never released another like SotN, no. I'm not referring to ports, which of course were bound to happen.

Most of the GBA/DS line of games were like SotN though

goldenpp73 · Mar 2, 2019

Crocodile said:
A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

Most people do because it's fun.

Foffy · Mar 2, 2019

I do wish the systems SotN had matched a game with variety in enemies and especially difficulty.

You become a God halfway into the game, and that's even if you limit yourself to Alucard's canonical gear.

AfropunkNyc · Mar 2, 2019

You might as well throw the other Castlevania-Metroidvania's into the pile.

VariantX · Mar 2, 2019

SOTN is a game I play not to get to the ending, but a game I play to completion. Getting all the things, filling out the enemy list, and fully exploring the map are where it's at. I dont think there's been another game even in it's own series that has that much shit to look for and experiment with.

theotherMittens · Mar 2, 2019

I just finished it the other day, and I had no idea the vast majority of this existed. It was so easy I never felt like I had to learn to play it, then when I came across a boss that was actually hard I felt wholly unprepared to fight it. I did not beat Galamoth.

Overall it was a damn fine game, but it could really have benefited from a little more difficulty. And I'm not someone who usually cares if a game is on the easier side.

Vorpal · Mar 2, 2019

Crocodile said:
A shame SOTN is so face-rolling on-the-controller easy that the game never challenges you enough to make you think outside the box and try to mix things up. The weapon/spell variety is worth lauding to this day but there is never a reason to use 99.9% of it and thus most players will never see or seek out the content.

Spot-on. I kept going back to the game because I love the soundtrack, and that's why I discovered his many of the weapons and shield spells as I did. People out there are missing huge chunks of the game because you can go through it without breaking a sweat. Damn shame too.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

OrangeNova said:
Most of the GBA/DS line of games were like SotN though

Yeah that's what I was implying too lol.

Deleted member 21709 · Mar 2, 2019

10/10 game. Thank you Gamefan for getting me hyped.

signal · Mar 2, 2019

Ingueferroque said:
10/10 game. Thank you Gamefan for getting me hyped.

A magazine review?

HK-47 · Mar 2, 2019

Hollow Knight has much better balance and challenge. Even within its own series I felt like the Souls system allowed a lot more creativity.

Deleted member 21709 · Mar 2, 2019

signal said:
A magazine review?

A preview/feature with about a 100 screenshots and their usual brand of hyperbole. All spot-on.

The diversity in ways to kill enemies in Symphony of the Night is high tier.

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