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Deleted member 18944

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Disclaimer: The purpose of this piece is not to sow a divide in the democratic party or its supporters after a significant victory in the U.S. presidential election, this divide already existed, and the issues this piece discusses are issues that democrats have routinely brought up as evidence of problems with securing smaller election wins. It is critical to unify to overcome, but that does not mean we cannot highlight the very real issues that the Democratic Party has been unable to resolve.

Ever since Joe Biden's win in the U.S. presidential election and November 5th, centrist Democrats and the Democratic Party as a whole in recent years, have embraced the idea that progressive ideals and policies are to blame for either losing congressional elections or winning them by a narrow margin. "We need to not ever use the word 'socialist' or 'socialism' ever again. . . . We lost good members because of that," Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) had said in a private conference call to House Democrats. The opposition to the progressive policy's that Democratic Party members like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have embraced and even won on has not been isolated to the U.S. presidential elections. It has been a constant hurdle for the more liberal members of the party.

In February, The New York Times reported that Democratic leaders were willing to risk party damage to stop Bernie Sanders from being nominated as the party's next choice for president. Sanders, who has seen a constant surge in popularity among Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z, since attempting to become the presidential nominee during both the 2016 and 2020 U.S. Presidential Elections, has always championed what many would call socialist policies, such as Medicare-for-all, and free four-year colleges.

"How you can spend four or five months hoping you don't have to put a bumper sticker from that guy on your car," said former Senator Chris Dodd, echoing a disdain for Sanders that many of the parties leadership shares.

As a result of this disdain, Bernie Sanders was unable to gain the presidential nomination both in 2016 and 2020, with many of his supporters denouncing the decision to nominate Joe Biden, a centrist Democrat who has publicly ensured that many of the progressive movements he has backed have been wrapped in a moderate label.

Despite his platform being called "the most progressive platform of any Democratic nominee in the modern history of the party," by the Justice Democrats, the group behind The Squad – AOC, Omar, Tlaib, and Pressley – Many of the Democratic party continue to lay blame on the progressives of the party for election results, regurgitating common Republican talking points that socialism, defunding the police, etc., is radical, unsustainable, and ludicrous.

Yet progressive policies within this very election cycle have had higher approval ratings than either presidential candidate, with Florida adopting a $15 an hour minimum wage standard, New Jersey decriminalizing marijuana, and Oregon decriminalizing all drugs for recreational use (yes, even cocaine and heroin).

Hasan Piker, a political commentator on Twitch, says that Democrats aren't losing because of progressive policies, but because they aren't progressive enough by offering incentives for disenfranchised people to vote for the Democratic party and challenging Republicans when they attempt to combat those progressive policies.

"The reason why Democrats lose is actually because they don't focus on the meat and potato issues or at the very least tell people what they're going to do for them. Solidarity is important, but if you want people to come to your side, you have to offer them something. And how do you offer as many people as possible the best possible thing? You tell them I'm going to give you healthcare, I'm going to give you free college, and when Republicans turn around and say "no," you say "why do you not want the people of West Virginia not to get a better opportunity for social mobility in this country?"

And this idea that progressivism will incentivize disenfranchised people was backed by a 2007 study that suggested that if everyone in the country voted, "Democrats would be in for the next 100 years." We know that nonvoters heavily favor socialist policies that benefit them because it lifts them up, makes their lives more comfortable with less stress, and often provides social safety nets that would otherwise be nonexistent under a deregulated and conservative federal government.

In an economic model like capitalism, having progressive policies ensures that exploitation can be contained and controlled to an extent. Child labor in the early 20th century was a product of capitalist exploitation. It was only progressive measures that ensured that children did not have 16-hour workdays in volatile conditions. The New Deal is a perfect example of progressive policies that quite literally saved the United States' economy by bolstering infrastructure and setting up welfare programs.

And you might be asking, "Why has that progress seemingly stopped?" But it hasn't. It just slowed down drastically because of massive opposition by lobbyists of corporations, and for two primary reasons: Republicans highjack these ideas, like socialized healthcare, and reframe them under the boogeyman of socialism and communism, which to many Americans is a deal-breaker, and because Democrats concede to those framings, as we've seen with Spanberger.

But for those who have fought back against Republican lead narratives that many of the Democratic party adopted, the win rate for elections has only continued to trend upward. 26 of the 30 congressional representatives endorsed by the Democratic Socialists of America won their elections in the past week.

As we continue to move forward with a Joe Biden presidency, the Democratic party needs to ensure that establishment, Republican-lite, and DINO members are either migrating to progressive policies or are replaced by progressive candidates. Republicans are not here to work in a bipartisan fashion, as we've seen with the Supreme Court picks that have completely subverted bipartisanship (among other things). Democrats cannot afford to play both sides to gain white moderate votes because we know they can swing either way. It's much more important to focus on those people that these Democrats represent who don't vote because their disenfranchised, or in some cases, completely unable to. If Democrats continue to blame progressive members and policies and continue this centrism, they will continue to lose elections. And after four years of Donald Trump, I don't wish to experience it again.
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
We could wait to see what the actual data about what happened in this election shows, or we could all just push our personal hot takes without evidence.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,233
Color me skeptical. I also don't think Hasan Piker is a particularly insightful political commentator or authoritative voice.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,427
Chicago
Hobbes did you write this piece on your own? Anyway, fantastic, I fully agree.

Incoming hot take:

Dems took this most recent election due to a massive collapse in leadership and messaging from the Trump admin this year on numerous fronts. Even then I believe Trump over-performed at the polls and Biden under-performed in the sense that I truly believe his historic vote count could've been even more. I do think the turnout was impressive but as you said, if more people vote, Dems will usually win. Republicans know this more than anyone and that's the problem.

Joe and Kamala won but I feel they won on something of an empty campaign that was too reactive to what Trump did wrong instead of that the Dems could do right. I have a feeling this gap would've been wider if they actually stood for something more on the left in a time where so much of the country is suffering and could use more leftist policy. They played it completely safe for more votes and definitely catered to Centrist whites even though heavily minority areas (Black) clutched out the election. I am afraid that them playing it safe will just lead to more of the same. You already have old heads in the party telling anyone left of them to shut the fuck up and they seem annoyed as fuck with AOC.

Even the Harris/AOC ticket thread was full of people who are seemingly tired of people complaining that the Dems aren't moving left quickly enough. I am hopeful though. For now, I am going to focus on local politics and just root for us to take the seats in GA come January.

Thanks for opening up this discourse.
 

Novoitus

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,139
Color me skeptical. I also don't think Hasan Piker is a particularly insightful political commentator or authoritative voice.
what he's saying makes complete and total sense. but yes ok the democratic party is perfect they totally offer the working class something to vote for
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
We could wait to see what the actual data about what happened in this election shows, or we could all just push our personal hot takes without evidence.

right. Even from these progressive elected Dems, they selectively left out info (Kara Eastman) in order to make it seem like every M4A candidate got elected. What really kills Dems is the lack of ability to run as an individual. They always end up getting tied to someone not necessarily aligned with their district.
 

greepoman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,958
I don't think policies ever matter ...it's the Democrat messaging that sucks. As the GOP proves you can even pass tax increases (tariffs) with the right messaging. I know it's harder because of the composition of the party but it's like they aren't even trying.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
We beat Trump but lost house seats and didn't flip the Senate. While progressives came out to vote Trump out, without a fair number of swing voters, many who vote repub sometimes, he would of won. In 18 the blue wave was moderates overwhelmingly. I wish the country were more progressive but I just don't think it is, and as a gay man I can't afford the luxury of handing over power to repubs- we have to win.
 

SemRockwel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
507
I agree with this write up pretty much.

Only thing I would add to this, is that the moderate Dems that lost didn't run on progressive policies or activist slogans. In fact they often denounced them. So I think there isn't clear evidence yet why moderate Dems lost with the current electorate in red states.

Edit: It very well could be that without major progressive policy ideas to separate themselves from their Republican competitors (for moderate voters), the red district Republican voters were able to turnout and overwhelmed the moderate Dems. 2018 could be explained by there being less Republican turnout. That is expected for a midterm election from the party in control of the white house (plus Dems hate Trump so they turned out like crazy).
 
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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,673
By all accounts, and the circumstances of merely living in America for the past four years (economic collapse, a pandemic, increase in hate crimes, etc.), Biden should've clutched the election the night of. Instead, he merely squeaked by in key states, and we had major downballot losses, and his first two years are resting yet again on Georgia. This shouldn't be fucking happening, and centrist Democrats need to figure out why the fuck they are having to work this hard just to secure power if they are the out-and-out "good guys." And no, it's not only because the entire other half of the country are horrible.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
I think he may be onto a bit of something. That's despite not being an, I quote, "insightful political commentator" or "authoritative voice":


 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995

Please expand on why ultimately a random dude on Twitch with no research, journalism, or political background and no ties into the political realm whatsoever isn't an authoritative voice on politics? That he's just a Twitch entertainer?

Do you also believe that Sean Hanity is an authoritative voice on politics? Because that is essentially what you're asserting here.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,233
I don't think policies ever matter ...it's the Democrat messaging that sucks. As the GOP proves you can even pass tax increases (tariffs) with the right messaging. I know it's harder because of the composition of the party but it's like they aren't even trying.
I mean, the GOP ran and won on 'repealing Obamacare' for years because a depressingly sizable part of the population thought that Obamacare and the ACA aren't the same thing, so we know that this is the case.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
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Please expand on why ultimately a random dude on Twitch with no research, journalism, or political background and no ties into the political realm whatsoever isn't an authoritative voice on politics? That he's just a Twitch entertainer?

Do you also believe that Sean Hanity is an authoritative voice on politics? Because that is essentially what you're asserting here.

Hasan Piker is not some random dude on twitch with no research, journalism, or political background.

Maybe save your hot takes for another thread.

ALSO, this piece that I wrote is not about Hasan Piker, it just uses a quote the elegantly sums up the point I'm making - Establishment dems need to fuck off.
 

Balphon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
Is this where we start pretending Jared Golden is a Marxist and Kara Eastman doesn't exist?

You may very well be right, but these kind of conclusions have to wait until we have the full data on how people actually voted.
 

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,145
Straya M8
America should move further to the left because it's the right thing to do, but as an outside observer I don't think it will swing the polls that much. American voting is personality driven, not policy driven.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,900
If progressives want their policies to be adopted they need to win more elections and become a stronger coalition within the party and the government as a whole. That's all there is to it and last week's results unfortunately don't seem to move the needle much in that direction.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
Hasan Piker is not some random dude on twitch with no research, journalism, or political background.

Maybe save your hot takes for another thread.

ALSO, this piece that I wrote is not about Hasan Piker, it just uses a quote the elegantly sums up the point I'm making - Establishment dems need to fuck off.

?

That's was the question I was directly asked. It was related to your post, but it wasn't directly referring to your post.

But, yes, we should absolutely talk about the sources you choose to use to back up your theory.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,058
All politics is local. Run as far left as you can that will still win in the jurisdiction -- should always be the takeaway. Until we can turn lean blue and purple seats into solid blue, moderates are going to have to do in some spots. Where in safe blue, absolutely go blue. That being said, messaging is the biggest Democratic weakness -- part of which comes from not having a propaganda news network or a shady analytic company in their backpocket -- but those are the cards that have been dealt and we gotta deal with 'em.

People want the policies but not the letter next to the name in some of those red areas. It's not just "da demz are bad", but often a thin line for people to walk in those seats. At the end of the day, we need the votes to affect real change.

I don't think many of the commentaries address what happens when the opponent out and out lies as well. Repubs won't protect pre-existing conditions, and we know that -- the dem pounces on that knowing that healthcare is a brightspot. If the opponent lies -- this happened this election -- then what? I just think it's hard to nail it down simply to "be more progressive" alone, and we should wait till all the votes are in for a real post-mortem rather than going on feel. Post-mortems have missed stuff before and may miss them again, but it's rarely as simple as either Spanberger or Hasan sets it out to be.

In semi-related news, AOC's take -- find a way to do things better where it makes sense -- was absolutely fine. Dunno how that ruffled feathers.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
6,944
By all accounts, and the circumstances of merely living in America for the past four years (economic collapse, a pandemic, increase in hate crimes, etc.), Biden should've clutched the election the night of. Instead, he merely squeaked by in key states, and we had major downballot losses, and his first two years are resting yet again on Georgia. This shouldn't be fucking happening, and centrist Democrats need to figure out why the fuck they are having to work this hard just to secure power if they are the out-and-out "good guys." And no, it's not only because the entire other half of the country are horrible.

Yep.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,673
If progressives want their policies to be adopted they need to win more elections and become a stronger coalition within the party and the government as a whole. That's all there is to it and last week's results unfortunately don't seem to move the needle much in that direction.
???

Centrist candidates and policies got fucking toasted this election.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Is Kara Eastman the moderates silver bullet? No one's saying running on these policies is a magic remedy but they do help. What you should be asking is did Eastman's platform hurt her or could it be factors like her primary opponent endorsing the republican.
 

Tlozbj

Banned
Jun 26, 2020
608
Puerto Rico
Well yeah, a lot of progressive policies are quite favored and wanted by the general public. However, the problem with Democrats is that they do not know how to fend off against "SOCIALISSSSM" attacks from the GOP. So instead of actually trying to do some change they just cower of how the GOP will attack them with said line and not do anything. In addition, they also easily fall into using the "demonized names" of laws, programs, or bills. An example being Obamacare, I understand they use it because it was a signature bill from the Obama administration, but they have to understand that name has been poisoned by the GOP and at the end, it only hurts them. So they should just refer by its proper name as the Affordable Cares Act.
 

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,753
San Francisco
You lost me when you brought up Bernie. Are you telling me you really think Bernie wouldn't have gotten absolutely steamrolled by Trump?

America is mostly moderate. Even when they support progressive policies they don't want to be labeled as progressive or radical.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
You lost me when you brought up Bernie. Are you telling me you really think Bernie wouldn't have gotten absolutely steamrolled by Trump?

America is mostly moderate. Even when they support progressive policies they don't want to be labeled as progressive or radical.
Americans clearly support progressive policies but shit changes when you stick and R or a D next to it. That happens to do with the electorate being trained to "consume" politics like its a fucking sport
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
6,944
But, yes, we should absolutely talk about the sources you choose to use to back up your theory.

Which ones? I don't even know the specifics you want to discuss.

Well yeah, a lot of progressive policies are quite favored and wanted by the general public. However, the problem with Democrats is that they do not know how to fend off against "SOCIALISSSSM" attacks from the GOP. So instead of actually trying to do some change they just cower of how the GOP will attack them with said line and not do anything. In addition, they also easily fall into using the "demonized names" of laws, programs, or bills. An example being Obamacare, I understand they use it because it was a signature bill from the Obama administration, but they have to understand that name has been poisoned by the GOP and at the end, it only hurts them. So they should just refer by its proper name as the Affordable Cares Act.

Yep, dems are unable to reframe the narrative and just concede to "socialism bad"
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,901
How have progressive candidates performed in red districts? Data is still moving, but focusing on the success of progressive messaging in deep red areas may provide further insight on whether or not it's possible to win nationwide on progressive policies or not.

But without that, it's unnecessary bickering with two caucuses that need each other if they want to actually continue to hold on to office within the government. Telling "centrists" "liberals" "Democrats" to fuck off has no real value unless you actually want them to stay at home or actually leave the party. Blaming progressives simply ignores the actual problem of messaging that the Democratic Party has.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
You lost me when you brought up Bernie. Are you telling me you really think Bernie wouldn't have gotten absolutely steamrolled by Trump?

America is mostly moderate. Even when they support progressive policies they don't want to be labeled as progressive or radical.

To clarify your own point, they don't want policies that are labeled democrat or republican. As I said, progressive policies like raising the min wage was overwhelmingly supported and passed in Florida. If democrats had the ability to challenge republican framing of their policies and issues, there would not be an issue with ballot measure being associated with them.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,233
How have progressive candidates performed in red districts? Data is still moving, but focusing on the success of progressive messaging in deep red areas may provide further insight on whether or not it's possible to win nationwide on progressive policies or not.

But without that, it's unnecessary bickering with two caucuses that need each other if they want to actually continue to hold on to office within the government. Telling "centrists" "liberals" "Democrats" to fuck off has no real value unless you actually want them to stay at home or actually leave the party. Blaming progressives simply ignores the actual problem of messaging that the Democratic Party has.
This is where I'm at. I'll become a true believer when I see progressives consistently winning in either red or moderate suburban districts.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
How have progressive candidates performed in red districts? Data is still moving, but focusing on the success of progressive messaging in deep red areas may provide further insight on whether or not it's possible to win nationwide on progressive policies or not.

But without that, it's unnecessary bickering with two caucuses that need each other if they want to actually continue to hold on to office within the government. Telling "centrists" "liberals" "Democrats" to fuck off has no real value unless you actually want them to stay at home or actually leave the party. Blaming progressives simply ignores the actual problem of messaging that the Democratic Party has.

Exactly. We really don't have time for anything other than proper data driven analysis with regards to this no matter where we land on the spectrum.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
You're drawing an awful lot of conclusions from a sample size of 1 election. But if we're playing this game, let's not forget that the vast majority of Justice Democrats lost their elections in 2018. https://ballotpedia.org/Justice_Democrats
And even this election, Kara Eastman gets forgotten. You can paint any picture if you leave out data points. Truth is it's messaging and trying to overcome social media and right wing brainwashing along with a message friendly enough to the locals. Ex: M4A will probably kill your chances in Miami-Dade to even though a bill for the electorate to raise to $15 min wage won't.
 

ItIsOkBro

Happy New Year!!
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,476
People are really trying to extrapolate some wild shit from Florida increasing the min wage. Bigots like money you know. These policies aren't the ones that make 70 million Americans vote republican.
 

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,753
San Francisco
To clarify your own point, they don't want policies that are labeled democrat or republican. As I said, progressive policies like raising the min wage was overwhelmingly supported and passed in Florida. If democrats had the ability to challenge republican framing of their policies and issues, there would not be an issue with ballot measure being associated with them.

The issue is that progressive policies aren't one size fit all for every state. You can't say oh well Florida supported raising the minimum wage, a progressive policy, so that means Dems should be able to get free college passed in Michigan by just framing it right.